... The question is whether Apple is going to restrict the installation of the Software only through their Apple Store. Why not - they are doing it already for the phone. This would be really.... monopolistic... and "revolutionary"
Quote:
Originally Posted by BenRoethig
Hopefully never. That being said, they like having the power to make choices for you, so I would say a small chance of this happening with Lion and with a much larger chance of it happening in 10.8.
Such nonsense. It's not happening, now or in the future. And the bit about liking, "having the power to make choices for you:" total bullshit.
Seems to me that a Mac App Store with restrictions designed to make the purchase and installation of software dead easy and bullet proof (including things like not strewing files in random places and some assurance that any given app won't cause problems or instability) running parallel to the existing application ecosystem (which is what we will get, doomsayers notwithstanding) is ideal.
More experienced users will continue on as they have, seeking out whatever software they want wherever they want. Even if the vendor is only selling on the App Store, that user will know to go to the vendor's web site to check for trial versions, demos or betas, release notes, supporting documentation, etc.
Meanwhile, newer or more fretful users will have a place they can go where they don't have to worry about where the installer went, where the app ended up, trying to run the app from a disk image on their desktop, etc. It also seems likely that, for the kind of app suited to this model, there will potentially a much larger addressable market, since you'll have better discoverability and more people willing to try things out (especially those who have grown accustomed to this model from their smart phones).
Of course each software vendor will have to make a determination as to the efficacy of selling through Apple and having Apple take their cut-- increased sales vs. decreased revenue per sale, somewhat restricted provisioning vs. more exposure, downward price pressure vs. everything else, etc.
Still, can't see where offering some users a very reliable, already proven model for getting new applications is in anyway a negative. Of course, if the model is fundamentally flawed, then it won't be very successful, or it will be entirely populated with crappy little cheap apps that don't do much. At which time I imagine Apple will recalibrate the model.
Such nonsense. It's not happening, now or in the future. And the bit about liking, "having the power to make choices for you:" total bullshit.
I won't be saying anything about the other quote you pulled out, only about mine.
So my question and the fact that I contemplate on possible decisions and future trend and think about the alternatives and possibilities - all that process of thinking and speculation you call with 100% certainty a BS. You are probably very close to Steve that you can claim it with 100% certainty that there is no alternatives. By the way, I still has not heard from you, o great guru, what is the "right" path you (together) with Steve laid for us.
I won't be saying anything about the other quote you pulled out, only about mine.
So my question and the fact that I contemplate on possible decisions and future trend and think about the alternatives and possibilities - all that process of thinking and speculation you call with 100% certainty a BS. You are probably very close to Steve that you can claim it with 100% certainty that there is no alternatives. By the way, I still has not heard from you, o great guru, what is the "right" path you (together) with Steve laid for us.
Apple's behavior, unlike your thought process on this topic, is rational. That's how we know with 100% certainty that the nonsense you propound won't happen.
perhaps software makers wil lower their average selling price as they gain access to a larger potential customer base via an interface which as far as I can tell is enjoying some modest success (on the iOS App store).
Though I would like to see options such as RealBasic has used where one low price gets you the download and a license - if you want a printed manual - that is extra$ - if you need support that is extra$ - there is a lot of software that I might be willing to pay $30 for or even $60 - to have a legal licensed copy with PDF manual or online help - that I do not need to pay $349 for to get a hard copy manual and a DVD and a year of telephone tech support.
"That's a change from the highly successful iOS App Store policies, in which iPhone and iPad users can download free limited trials of paid software. For example, the popular 99-cent game "Angry Birds" has a "Lite" version that is consistently among the top free iPhone titles."
i just laugh. my intuition was right and weaning myself off apple products is a good thing....
"That's a change from the highly successful iOS App Store policies, in which iPhone and iPad users can download free limited trials of paid software. For example, the popular 99-cent game "Angry Birds" has a "Lite" version that is consistently among the top free iPhone titles."
i just laugh. my intuition was right and weaning myself off apple products is a good thing....
And yet there's nothing to suggest that you or I won't be able to continue to purchase and enjoy any software we like, from any source we deem suitable.
So whatever your reasons of weening yourself off Apple products, they don't seemed to be based on anything here. Which makes your laughter off-putting.
Apple isn't telling people not to offer demos, it's telling them not to distribute the demos through the store. Why can't people understand that? Just provide a link to your web site for people to download a demo. It's a really easy concept and not a big deal.
Read my comment again. I clearly understand that.
With Steam, there isn't a section for links and stuff, just a description, whether or not it's multiplayer, and a meta score or some junk, so that's where I'm coming from. I don't know how Apple will do it, but you're right though: If there is a section for each app for the developer to show where users can grab a free demo, that helps to solve it.
And yet there's nothing to suggest that you or I won't be able to continue to purchase and enjoy any software we like, from any source we deem suitable.
So whatever your reasons of weening yourself off Apple products, they don't seemed to be based on anything here. Which makes your laughter off-putting.
the writing is on the wall if you care to read it. the future is the STORE and if you ain't in it you don't get installed. (well, unless you want to root or do something like that)
I agree, 30% is a great margin for developers, even developers of expensive software, especially if you think of the MAS as compared to a physical retailer. To sell software at any physical retailer (such as something like Best Buy) they not only have to give Best Buy at least 30%, they also have the cost and labor of creating and shipping the physical product with a box, dvd, printed manuals, etc.
I believe Steam takes a 30% cut as well so 30% seems about par. The MAS represents eyeballs and ease of sale.
For a indie dev this means not needing to muck about with credit card transactions, store front, blah blah blah. As long as the app gets approved you're good.
Besides, AFAIK nobody sells software directly from their website cheaper than through their channels...it's a good way of shooting yourself in the foot if they decide to drop you leading to a huge drop in eyeballs.
It's different because of the reason I said it wouldn't work when they announced the Mac App Store. If they allow any form of trial software, all that happens is that developers put the low cost/free version on the store for publicity and then direct users to their own site for the full version, which means they don't have to pay Apple 30% of the final sale price.
This differs from iOS because you can't get apps from a website but you simply can't put that restriction onto a desktop OS (hopefully). The way Apple have chosen to do this is the only way it will work but it will still have a problem.
When people see commercial software on the App Store, the natural tendency is to try it first as it will be expensive so they are going to visit the company website for the trial but there's nothing stopping the company hosting a cheaper version of the full software on their own site.
For example,
App Store:
Adobe CS 5 Design Premium - $1299
You visit adobe.com for the trial and download it
On the site, they have Adobe CS 5 Design Premium - $1299-30% = $899
So where will you buy it from?
Even in that scenario, Apple will be used for publicity and buyers will feel stupid for buying through the store instead of directly. Obviously Apple can choose to remove developers who sell the commercial software at a lower price on their own site but that might not end well.
They have to try these systems out though to see how they work and I think it will work to some extent as it will be convenient, ad-free, competitive etc so as long as developers don't try to shaft Apple over the 30%, it will be ok. I think they should have reduced the fee though - although the volume is lower, the value is way higher.
After all is said and done, what is the actual purported benefit to me as a mac user for ever using the App Store on my desktop? Sounds like an expensive hassle I'll avoid.
After all is said and done, what is the actual purported benefit to me as a mac user for ever using the App Store on my desktop? Sounds like an expensive hassle I'll avoid.
There are many companies ...The Omni Group, BeLight, and Ohanaware ... just to name a few, that are not displayed in any retailer that I've seen .... that only can be purchased online without the convenience of an Apple account using gift cards where no cc info has to be shared. I am of the opinion that that, by itself, would be a factor to people like me.
Apple doesn't encourage demos, betas or trialware in the App Store. Free light versions are full-working versions lacking in a few key features, usually. This qualifies as a fully working app. They do not permit apps that expire
After all is said and done, what is the actual purported benefit to me as a mac user for ever using the App Store on my desktop? Sounds like an expensive hassle I'll avoid.
It's a huge benefit. Apple right now hosts 3rd-party app downloads on it's website. Yet, they are all free or demo/trial versions.
If I want to buy the full version I have to go to the developers website, create an account, enter personal info, enter credit card info and so on. It's a hassle. In addition, one never knows if their personal/cc details are safe and will remain so.
I had always wished that those downloads were available for purchase through Apple's website, not the myriad of 3rd-party sites.
My initial reaction to this is it would discourage me from buying the app. There are many apps on iOS that I TRIED first and deleted because I didn't like them. I have bought several, including from the Cydia store (I'm actually fallen behind on that, there is a few more I should purchase since I use and like them...).
Maybe that is different with actual Mac apps. I've actually ...'borrowed' applications on OSX and most I deleted (or use freeware alternatives). I think the two things I've actually bought on OSX I actually did buy blind (snow leopard and office). Final cut...well once I find a job maybe, its pretty expensive :P. But it was nice to try it anyway.
Just initial thoughts so, a bit disorganized and inconclusive.
Epic fail. Lack of demos is one of the major problems with the iOS app store. It is way too easy to screw yourself by buying an app then you later find out it sucks.
This isn't so much of a problem b/c iOS apps are cheap. But what about $20+ mac apps? Nobody is going to pay for any kind of expensive app without being able to download and try them out first. You'd have to be an idiot to do that.
If apple carries this retarded practice over to the mac app store, then people will be forced to download demos elsewhere, completely defeating the purpose of a centralized location on your mac for all application purchases and management. If people don't use the mac app store, then apple has failed, plain and simple.
Betas, etc I can understand. But the mac app store needs a way to offer demos. All they need to do is create a system whereby you go back to the app store to pay once you've decided on purchase. I don't see how that is so hard to implement.
Epic fail. Lack of demos is one of the major problems with the iOS app store. It is way too easy to screw yourself by buying an app then you later find out it sucks.
This isn't so much of a problem b/c iOS apps are cheap. But what about $20+ mac apps? Nobody is going to pay for any kind of expensive app without being able to download and try them out first. You'd have to be an idiot to do that.
If apple carries this retarded practice over to the mac app store, then people will be forced to download demos elsewhere, completely defeating the purpose of a centralized location on your mac for all application purchases and management. If people don't use the mac app store, then apple has failed, plain and simple.
Betas, etc I can understand. But the mac app store needs a way to offer demos. All they need to do is create a system whereby you go back to the app store to pay once you've decided on purchase. I don't see how that is so hard to implement.
I'd hardly call the problem major for the App Store. If you screw up and buy the wrong app you're out what $1.99 on the average? Most people spend more on lunch everyday than they do on app store apps.
Yes no one is going to spend $20 plus dollars on an untested app and Apple clearly realizes this which is why they'll push those that want trials to the developers website. I don't need a centralized "trial" store I need a store that makes it drop dead simple for the actual purchase.
I'm still not seeing a cogent argument for why Apple needs to host the demos or trials. They don't plan to be the end all be all in the process.
Personally I plan to demo software from the developer and then buy it on the MAS. The developer then gets more visibility (MAS metrics) and I get easy install and multiple Mac support. I don't need the demo to be MAS easy or even on MAS.
It's not as if consumers will suddenly forget that there's a website for the developer when MAS comes out.
Comments
... The question is whether Apple is going to restrict the installation of the Software only through their Apple Store. Why not - they are doing it already for the phone. This would be really.... monopolistic... and "revolutionary"
Hopefully never. That being said, they like having the power to make choices for you, so I would say a small chance of this happening with Lion and with a much larger chance of it happening in 10.8.
Such nonsense. It's not happening, now or in the future. And the bit about liking, "having the power to make choices for you:" total bullshit.
More experienced users will continue on as they have, seeking out whatever software they want wherever they want. Even if the vendor is only selling on the App Store, that user will know to go to the vendor's web site to check for trial versions, demos or betas, release notes, supporting documentation, etc.
Meanwhile, newer or more fretful users will have a place they can go where they don't have to worry about where the installer went, where the app ended up, trying to run the app from a disk image on their desktop, etc. It also seems likely that, for the kind of app suited to this model, there will potentially a much larger addressable market, since you'll have better discoverability and more people willing to try things out (especially those who have grown accustomed to this model from their smart phones).
Of course each software vendor will have to make a determination as to the efficacy of selling through Apple and having Apple take their cut-- increased sales vs. decreased revenue per sale, somewhat restricted provisioning vs. more exposure, downward price pressure vs. everything else, etc.
Still, can't see where offering some users a very reliable, already proven model for getting new applications is in anyway a negative. Of course, if the model is fundamentally flawed, then it won't be very successful, or it will be entirely populated with crappy little cheap apps that don't do much. At which time I imagine Apple will recalibrate the model.
Such nonsense. It's not happening, now or in the future. And the bit about liking, "having the power to make choices for you:" total bullshit.
I won't be saying anything about the other quote you pulled out, only about mine.
So my question and the fact that I contemplate on possible decisions and future trend and think about the alternatives and possibilities - all that process of thinking and speculation you call with 100% certainty a BS. You are probably very close to Steve that you can claim it with 100% certainty that there is no alternatives. By the way, I still has not heard from you, o great guru, what is the "right" path you (together) with Steve laid for us.
I won't be saying anything about the other quote you pulled out, only about mine.
So my question and the fact that I contemplate on possible decisions and future trend and think about the alternatives and possibilities - all that process of thinking and speculation you call with 100% certainty a BS. You are probably very close to Steve that you can claim it with 100% certainty that there is no alternatives. By the way, I still has not heard from you, o great guru, what is the "right" path you (together) with Steve laid for us.
Apple's behavior, unlike your thought process on this topic, is rational. That's how we know with 100% certainty that the nonsense you propound won't happen.
Though I would like to see options such as RealBasic has used where one low price gets you the download and a license - if you want a printed manual - that is extra$ - if you need support that is extra$ - there is a lot of software that I might be willing to pay $30 for or even $60 - to have a legal licensed copy with PDF manual or online help - that I do not need to pay $349 for to get a hard copy manual and a DVD and a year of telephone tech support.
Check out Notational Velocity for the notes app.
i just laugh. my intuition was right and weaning myself off apple products is a good thing....
"That's a change from the highly successful iOS App Store policies, in which iPhone and iPad users can download free limited trials of paid software. For example, the popular 99-cent game "Angry Birds" has a "Lite" version that is consistently among the top free iPhone titles."
i just laugh. my intuition was right and weaning myself off apple products is a good thing....
And yet there's nothing to suggest that you or I won't be able to continue to purchase and enjoy any software we like, from any source we deem suitable.
So whatever your reasons of weening yourself off Apple products, they don't seemed to be based on anything here. Which makes your laughter off-putting.
Apple isn't telling people not to offer demos, it's telling them not to distribute the demos through the store. Why can't people understand that? Just provide a link to your web site for people to download a demo. It's a really easy concept and not a big deal.
Read my comment again. I clearly understand that.
With Steam, there isn't a section for links and stuff, just a description, whether or not it's multiplayer, and a meta score or some junk, so that's where I'm coming from. I don't know how Apple will do it, but you're right though: If there is a section for each app for the developer to show where users can grab a free demo, that helps to solve it.
And yet there's nothing to suggest that you or I won't be able to continue to purchase and enjoy any software we like, from any source we deem suitable.
So whatever your reasons of weening yourself off Apple products, they don't seemed to be based on anything here. Which makes your laughter off-putting.
the writing is on the wall if you care to read it. the future is the STORE and if you ain't in it you don't get installed. (well, unless you want to root or do something like that)
I agree, 30% is a great margin for developers, even developers of expensive software, especially if you think of the MAS as compared to a physical retailer. To sell software at any physical retailer (such as something like Best Buy) they not only have to give Best Buy at least 30%, they also have the cost and labor of creating and shipping the physical product with a box, dvd, printed manuals, etc.
I believe Steam takes a 30% cut as well so 30% seems about par. The MAS represents eyeballs and ease of sale.
For a indie dev this means not needing to muck about with credit card transactions, store front, blah blah blah. As long as the app gets approved you're good.
Besides, AFAIK nobody sells software directly from their website cheaper than through their channels...it's a good way of shooting yourself in the foot if they decide to drop you leading to a huge drop in eyeballs.
It's different because of the reason I said it wouldn't work when they announced the Mac App Store. If they allow any form of trial software, all that happens is that developers put the low cost/free version on the store for publicity and then direct users to their own site for the full version, which means they don't have to pay Apple 30% of the final sale price.
This differs from iOS because you can't get apps from a website but you simply can't put that restriction onto a desktop OS (hopefully). The way Apple have chosen to do this is the only way it will work but it will still have a problem.
When people see commercial software on the App Store, the natural tendency is to try it first as it will be expensive so they are going to visit the company website for the trial but there's nothing stopping the company hosting a cheaper version of the full software on their own site.
For example,
App Store:
Adobe CS 5 Design Premium - $1299
You visit adobe.com for the trial and download it
On the site, they have Adobe CS 5 Design Premium - $1299-30% = $899
So where will you buy it from?
Even in that scenario, Apple will be used for publicity and buyers will feel stupid for buying through the store instead of directly. Obviously Apple can choose to remove developers who sell the commercial software at a lower price on their own site but that might not end well.
They have to try these systems out though to see how they work and I think it will work to some extent as it will be convenient, ad-free, competitive etc so as long as developers don't try to shaft Apple over the 30%, it will be ok. I think they should have reduced the fee though - although the volume is lower, the value is way higher.
After all is said and done, what is the actual purported benefit to me as a mac user for ever using the App Store on my desktop? Sounds like an expensive hassle I'll avoid.
So you'd rather have a store drowning in flaky betas, demos and free crap rather than tested, working software of value?
Are those the only choices?
After all is said and done, what is the actual purported benefit to me as a mac user for ever using the App Store on my desktop? Sounds like an expensive hassle I'll avoid.
There are many companies ...The Omni Group, BeLight, and Ohanaware ... just to name a few, that are not displayed in any retailer that I've seen .... that only can be purchased online without the convenience of an Apple account using gift cards where no cc info has to be shared. I am of the opinion that that, by itself, would be a factor to people like me.
Cheers !
After all is said and done, what is the actual purported benefit to me as a mac user for ever using the App Store on my desktop? Sounds like an expensive hassle I'll avoid.
It's a huge benefit. Apple right now hosts 3rd-party app downloads on it's website. Yet, they are all free or demo/trial versions.
If I want to buy the full version I have to go to the developers website, create an account, enter personal info, enter credit card info and so on. It's a hassle. In addition, one never knows if their personal/cc details are safe and will remain so.
I had always wished that those downloads were available for purchase through Apple's website, not the myriad of 3rd-party sites.
deleted
Maybe that is different with actual Mac apps. I've actually ...'borrowed' applications on OSX and most I deleted (or use freeware alternatives). I think the two things I've actually bought on OSX I actually did buy blind (snow leopard and office). Final cut...well once I find a job maybe, its pretty expensive :P. But it was nice to try it anyway.
Just initial thoughts so, a bit disorganized and inconclusive.
This isn't so much of a problem b/c iOS apps are cheap. But what about $20+ mac apps? Nobody is going to pay for any kind of expensive app without being able to download and try them out first. You'd have to be an idiot to do that.
If apple carries this retarded practice over to the mac app store, then people will be forced to download demos elsewhere, completely defeating the purpose of a centralized location on your mac for all application purchases and management. If people don't use the mac app store, then apple has failed, plain and simple.
Betas, etc I can understand. But the mac app store needs a way to offer demos. All they need to do is create a system whereby you go back to the app store to pay once you've decided on purchase. I don't see how that is so hard to implement.
Epic fail. Lack of demos is one of the major problems with the iOS app store. It is way too easy to screw yourself by buying an app then you later find out it sucks.
This isn't so much of a problem b/c iOS apps are cheap. But what about $20+ mac apps? Nobody is going to pay for any kind of expensive app without being able to download and try them out first. You'd have to be an idiot to do that.
If apple carries this retarded practice over to the mac app store, then people will be forced to download demos elsewhere, completely defeating the purpose of a centralized location on your mac for all application purchases and management. If people don't use the mac app store, then apple has failed, plain and simple.
Betas, etc I can understand. But the mac app store needs a way to offer demos. All they need to do is create a system whereby you go back to the app store to pay once you've decided on purchase. I don't see how that is so hard to implement.
I'd hardly call the problem major for the App Store. If you screw up and buy the wrong app you're out what $1.99 on the average? Most people spend more on lunch everyday than they do on app store apps.
Yes no one is going to spend $20 plus dollars on an untested app and Apple clearly realizes this which is why they'll push those that want trials to the developers website. I don't need a centralized "trial" store I need a store that makes it drop dead simple for the actual purchase.
I'm still not seeing a cogent argument for why Apple needs to host the demos or trials. They don't plan to be the end all be all in the process.
Personally I plan to demo software from the developer and then buy it on the MAS. The developer then gets more visibility (MAS metrics) and I get easy install and multiple Mac support. I don't need the demo to be MAS easy or even on MAS.
It's not as if consumers will suddenly forget that there's a website for the developer when MAS comes out.