I really dislike the "always cooperate with police" attitude applied to blacks. With whites, fine, because there isn't a history of police officers pathologically pursuing and singling out whites because of their race.
In some of the posher areas around Miami athletes have taken to driving cheaper cars, because if they drive their expensive cars they get pulled over all the time, sometimes twice in one day. Ricky Williams (Hook 'Em!) recently moved there (finally out of New Orleans, thank God) and cops came into his garage badgering him about whose Mercedes SUV it was in the garage and kept asking him after seeing his license (his name isn't actually "Ricky" so they didn't recognize him). This is Ricky Williams, superstar and multi-millionaire, more money than all those cops and their families hassled like a street thug because he has black skin and dreadlocks.
Black profiling is epidemic, and until such discrimination is curbed I don't see why blacks should just take what officers say up front, because cops don't always deserve that courtesy.
I don't know the specific situation with the guy in Oklahoma but as far as I know he hasn't been charged with any crime so I'm wondering why he was handcuffed and taken into custody in the first place. Because he talked back?
What the hell kind of attitude is "if you just cooperate you won't get beat"? That's sick.
That's a Clayton Williams "just lay back and enjoy it" attitude.
It looked like he was in the cab of a large moving van (like a Ryder truck maybe?) and a prostitute was beside him. I don't know if they were doing anything, but that was the story.
The cop went up, opened the passenger door, the lady stepped out (officer didn't touch her, unless to kinda help her out...in other words, no strongarm stuff at all that I saw). She got out and the cop motioned for her to have a seat, so she grabbed some curb. Never seemed to say anything or resist or otherwise be difficult.
The cop then walked around to the front of the van and the man got out and kinda met the cop halfway. They were talking, the man gestured quite a bit with his hands, then he'd walk away from the cop a few times and the cop would follow him and bring him back to the other side of the truck. The prostitute was sitting there beside the truck, not really doing or saying anything. She's probably used to dealing with cops and just figures "hell, another fine..." or whatever. She was mellow.
The cop and the man talked some more, the guy seemed agitated in that he was leaning forward a bit more, kinda talking loud (couldn't hear exact words, but could hear the general loudness of his voice from the camcorder mic). When the cop would say something back to him, the man would kinda cock his head away and gesture with a dismissive, "get outta here..." kind of way.
The guy turned to walk, the cop grabbed his arm and then went to cuff him, got a cuff on one wrist, then the guy started windmilling around, dragging the cop with him, then the cop dragged back and was trying to reach the guys other arm to complete the handcuffing.
Then he did that leg thing cops do to trip/bring down someone (the perp was quite a bit taller and heftier than the cop, even the commentators on the news show commented on that as the video played...there was DEFINITELY some height/weight disparity there! This was a pretty beefy guy).
The cop pepper sprayed the guy, but the guy sat up and just wiped his face and didn't seem at all phased by it. He wasn't rubbing his eyes or anything. And he was gesturing like "why are you doing this?", and kept talking and trying to sit up, when the cop was trying to get him to lie on his belly.
Finally got on his belly, but he wouldn't give up his free hand. Kept tucking it under his torso and all, refusing to let the cop get it.
By this time, another cop showed up and was trying to help get the guy's other hand. Then there was a cut in the video, and the next scene was the original cop hitting the guy on the back of the legs (thigh area, above the knee) with his baton. I think the other guy may have got some hits in the shoulder/bicep area too.
Then it ended.
I don't know. Maybe the guy was married or a well-known respected man in the community (a preacher or school teacher perhaps?) and the thought of getting busted with a hooker freaked him out and he decided to not go easily, maybe thinking if he put up enough struggle or resistance, the cops would tire out and let him go?
If so, that's a pretty stupid thing to think. He should know better.
So, I don't know.
Point is, the cop had no beef with the lady. And had no beef with the guy, until the guy seemed to get his back up, argue, pull away, walk away, gesture more wildly, etc.
Everything started out calmly and completely normal. The policeman wasn't the agitator in this scenario, and was only talking to the guy. You could actually see the guy getting more worked up and animated as the tape went on.
As far as the white/black thing, 'rat, it's like the chicken and the egg maybe. Do cops beat on black people for sick jollies, or do cops working the street perhaps deal with resistance and trouble a bit more in the black neighborhoods? I don't know, I'm asking. I'm not a cop.
Maybe there's just this awful, built-in tension between cops and many blacks and it's a two way street: cop assumes black guy is not going to go quietly (because of lots of personal experience in the matter?) and black guy assumes cop is out to get him and kick his ass no matter what, so he feels he's got nothing to lose?
Which came first?
Still would be curious to see: if pulled over for something, do you think that if a black person who would normally cause trouble and resist were to just go "okay, I'm not going to inflame this...he can give me a ticket or whatever, and I'm not going to mouth off or act uncooperative", wouldn't it just be a normal, non-dramatic traffic stop?
You say "just sit there and be cooperative while getting your ass kicked...". Don't be ridiculous. I NEVER said that. What I DID say is that there's a very good chance it might not ever GET to the ass-kicking stage if everyone (perp AND cop) puts their baggage and bullcrap aside and don't do things to worsen the situation.
I doubt very seriously, the cop is pulling the guy over, sprinting up to his car, opening the door, pulling him out and commencing to beating him with a baton, just for the fun and thrill of it.
You act like it's an "either/or" situation: the black guys is automatically destined for a beating, so he may as well take preventative action?
Like I said: chicken or the egg?
What about all the black people who HAVE been pulled over, cooperated, got their ticket or warning (or, in some cases, even got arrested, but didn't go berserk and make it to where batons, pepper spray and additional back-up wasn't needed)?
Maybe they were just smarter and more pragmatic than your average, hot-headed street thug?
I don't think this country is, in any way, has this HUGE epidemic of white cops pulling over black motorists and beating them senseless for the sport of it.
I think it's little sporadic instances, here and there. But when something bad DOES happen, the burden is on the cop. As a professional, it should be of course. Believe me, I don't condone or support this either! That Inglewood cop should be fired, no ifs, ands or buts.
But again, I wonder how much role some people have in their own bad situation?
I don't think it would ever COME to a beating or "ass whipping" if maybe the perp DID cooperate from the get-go, and give the cop NO REASON to use force or pull out the baton and pepper spray.
Why is this so hard?
Again, the guy in the video had control over this situation. That cop wasn't "in his face", didn't have his gun or baton on him, wasn't pushing him around or anything. When he learned he was in a bit of trouble and was under arrest, all he had to do was present both his hands.
The ONLY reason the situation got the way it did was because he fought back, dragged the cop around, resisted, etc.
[quote]As far as the white/black thing, 'rat, it's like the chicken and the egg maybe. Do cops beat on black people for sick jollies, or do cops working the street perhaps deal with resistance and trouble a bit more in the black neighborhoods? I don't know, I'm asking. I'm not a cop.<hr></blockquote>
Not a very difficult situation when you look at the history of our culture, you'll see that it's quite obvious that what came first was institutional and societal racism that not so long ago considered violence against blacks acceptable in given circumstances.
Blacks had to put up with a lot of crap for a long long time. And don't try and tell me that has no effect on their children and grandchildren or that racism just up and left when we passed a few civil rights amendments.
It's not a chicken-egg situation, the answer is frighteningly clear.
Now, this kind of talk (mine) makes the hair on the back of peoples' necks stand up and think "Goddam Jesse Jackson race-baiting", but that's not me at all. It's just the way it is.
Whether or not that guy in Oklahoma was black I don't think pepper spray or beating with batons was justified.
HOLY SHIT...we AGREED on something!!! Stop the presses!
However, I think this guy could've danced with this cop all night long if he wanted to (outweighed him by quite a bit, plus a good 8-10" height advantage).
For the longest, this cop was by himself (no partner or back-up until the end of the video).
What's the rule? How long is this cop supposed to tussle with the guy? At some point, doesn't it have to end? What if, in all their spinning around and grappling, this guy managed to reach the cop's gun and kill the cop, point blank?
Is the cop supposed to stand there and dance around with this guy for 20 minutes? Or is he supposed to engage in back-and-forth grabs/punches for the rest of the afternoon?
The guy got off lucky with pepper spray. Since when did pepper spray become this horrible, sadistic thing? It's preferable to getting his ass shot, right? I mean, the WHOLE IDEA of pepper spray is to help temporarily disable and subdue the perp, right?
Nobody has ever died from pepper spray. The cop used it for the reason it's supposed to be used. AND, what's more, he didn't use it until WAY into the situation.
The cop showed quite a bit of restraint. Don't know why he ended up whacking the guy's legs ultimately, but up until then, he was doing everything legit and by the book.
Even one of the guests on the show who was supportive of the kid here in Inglewood remarked that the Oklahoma cop was behaving in a "very professional manner" and was legitimately trying to subdue the guy. He didn't even get mad at the pepper spray, being THAT'S WHAT IT'S FOR!
What was the cop supposed to do? Start singing lullabies and hope they take? Pet the guy on the head and hope it lulls him into a purring, docile state?
Don't tell me that pepper spray is now the official Tool of Hate, used by the White Devil to keep the black man down?
I wouldn't be a cop for a gazillion dollars a year. Wouldn't be worth the hassle and bullshit you face everyday. Put your ass on the line and are scrutinized, second-guessed and armchair-quarterbacked 24/7. Criminals can do anything and everything and follow no rules whatsoever. You break the smallest rule, as a cop, and it's your ass.
What a burden. I could never do it. I admire the good ones, the ones who do it right. The bad ones, who screw it up for everyone else, piss me off. A few bad eggs taint the whole basket sometimes.
[quote]What's the rule? How long is this cop supposed to tussle with the guy? At some point, doesn't it have to end? What if, in all their spinning around and grappling, this guy managed to reach the cop's gun and kill the cop, point blank?<hr></blockquote>
Well the guy never attacked the cop. Resisting arrest != assault on an officer.
[quote]Is the cop supposed to stand there and dance around with this guy for 20 minutes? Or is he supposed to engage in back-and-forth grabs/punches for the rest of the afternoon?<hr></blockquote>
Call in backup and physically restrain him. Hold him down with physical force of the body and cuff him if needs be. Spraying him with pepper spray and beating him with a baton when he hadn't acted in an physically attacking manner is uncalled for, in my opinion. There was no self-defense issue.
[quote]It's preferable to getting his ass shot, right?<hr></blockquote>
1) Shooting from cops is for self-defense, not lack of cooperation. The day we bring those two things into the equation is a scary scary day.
[quote]Nobody has ever died from pepper spray.<hr></blockquote>
Actually, a few deaths (that I know of) have been linked to restraints in addition to pepper spray. It's unpleasant stuff, I've had some stuff sprayed at me and it did a number on me.
[quote]The cop showed quite a bit of restraint. Don't know why he ended up whacking the guy's legs ultimately, but up until then, he was doing everything legit and by the book.<hr></blockquote>
I'd agree, but he's a cop so if he loses his cool for 1 second that's 1 second too long. Maybe that's not fair but life's not fair. He's a very powerful man and if we all watched Spider-Man like we were supposed to... 'With great power comes great responsibility.'
[quote]What was the cop supposed to do? Start singing lullabies and hope they take? Pet the guy on the head and hope it lulls him into a purring, docile state?<hr></blockquote>
I would really try to rile you up and say you were being racist comparing the guy to an animal but I'll let you keep your blood pressure down for a bit.
Maybe in a more literal "lullaby by the way of Shawshank Redemption" way I think tranquilizers are good.
[quote]Criminals can do anything and everything and follow no rules whatsoever.<hr></blockquote>
Yeah, they can until they get busted and thrown in jail.
[quote]You break the smallest rule, as a cop, and it's your ass.<hr></blockquote>
Again, the Rodney King cops were acquitted.
I'm not saying this Oklahoma cop is like them, btw.
[quote] Shut up, cooperate, do what the cop says WHEN he says it and the absolute WORST that will happen is that you get handcuffs on you and have to ride down to the police station in the back of a squad car, and get booked, fingerprinted. <hr></blockquote>
is that all?...what a lovely evening if you have done nothing wrong.....ok, and now picture that pulled over is your deaf-mute uncle....or your nephew who is learning disabled and can not understand instructions quickly...if your uncle or nephew is white, the cop may take a few more seconds, may be slower to react, may remain passive longer, and a potentionally "bad" situation never progresses and is not seen on the news or ends up in the courts...if your uncle, nephew is black or hispanic, the cop may talk faster, louder, more agressively expecting the "perp" to become either passive or aggressive himself...the cop envisions a bad situation and helps to bring it on...if the person doesn't immediately react, the cop becomes more aggressive...and the situation gets worst...it happens all the time and everyone here knows it...just tonight my daughter was out with 4 of her friends going to a movie...all of them white....they are going 51 in a 35 mph speed zone and get pulled over...the driver has a provisional licence and can't have more than one teenager in the car with her after dark...they are scared, given a lecture and sent on their way...if the car had 4 hispanic teenagers it well may have ended differently...i know that cops are almost expected to be perfect, and that can never be in any profession, but no...NO...situation is black and white (sorry for the pun), but cops have to be able to tell if a situation is dangerous or if a 16 year old kid is just learning disabled and not able to quickly understand what they want of him...if they can't, then they should lose their jobs....g
and yes i am a freakin' liberal...and my first memory of cops is when my mother took me to Century City to protest when LBJ came to town and it ended up as the Century City riots and i was 5 and had a bruise from my left hip to my right shoulder because the cops came through with their billy clubs swinging and caught me right across my back...but that same summer the cops played softball against the local hippies (the West Coast Walloping Weasels with their tie dye t-shirts against the cops in their dark blue t-shirts that said "Pigs") and it was a great time for both the hippies and the police....and, 35 years later, both memories are equally vivid in my mind...i have never disliked cops, but i have seen the good with the bad and i think the attitude of "Shut up, cooperate, do what the cop says WHEN he says it and the absolute WORST that will happen is that you get handcuffs on you and have to ride down to the police station in the back of a squad car, and get booked, fingerprinted" is very much a white man's attitude, and may not figure in with what "the worst that can happen" may mean to a person of color...it isn't always about race...and it is always about race....just depends what side of the fence you sit....sorry for the ramble....g
And 'rat, no racist intent to the "pet on the head" thing. Just trying to figure out how to settle this guy down without pepper spray or shooting him.
Didn't even occur to me...
Yeah, I don't think the guy was all-out "attacking" the cop. BUT they were grappling and hooking and grabbing torsos and arms at VERY close range (kinda wrestling while standing up is the best way to describe it?). Now, how exactly is the police guy supposed to know that the perp won't make a play for his gun?
Anyone bold enough to grapple and lay hands on a cop (violent or otherwise) is someone you might have to wonder about, you know?
Back-up wasn't there, this situation was unfolding (quickly, judging by the video), this guy had 8-10" and a good 50-70 pounds on the cop, they were close-quarter grappling, etc.
Doesn't the cop have the right (and a solid, legitimate reason) to perhaps be concerned for his safety? We've seen those "Real Life Police Chases" videos where cops stop a car, the driver and cop struggle, driver manages to get cop's gun (or, at the very least, makes a serious effort for it. One cop on one of those shows was actually shot and killed (just slightly off camera, but you could still hear the shots) with his own gun.
He's going around and around with this much larger, agitated guy for a pretty good while. Should the cop have to risk a bullet in the face or neck (at point-blank AND from his own gun, no less!) because this guy won't allow himself to be cuffed?
Does the cop have to take a bullet to finally be allowed to use force or get tough? Like I said, MOST people don't have the boldness or stupidity to put their hands on and grapple with police. The ones that DO, you probably have to wonder about and prepare for the worst.
If I was a cop and in that sort of situation, that would be the first thought going through my mind ("Damn, this guy is close enough to grab my gun...I gotta end this nonsense now!").
- The Emancipation Proclamation (1863): 139 years ago
- Civil War (ends) (1865): 137 years ago
- 15th Amendment (1870): 132 years ago
- Voting Rights Law (1965) - 37 years ago
- March on Selma (1965) - 37 years ago
- Rodney King (1991) - 11 years ago
- James Byrd ( 1998 ) - 4 years ago
I hear my relatives take this kind of position all of the time, and I just have to shake my head. </strong><hr></blockquote>
Excuse me, let me rephrase. I refuse to be held responsible for anything I haven't done or had anything to do with. Be it 400 or 4 years or 4 weeks or 4 hours ago.
I'm not saying that relations between races are the way they should be. I'm saying that there is no need for this "oh a black guy gets beat up by a white cop so all white people are to blame" crap.
I'm also not saying that this happens all the time. I'm not saying that all black people say this.
There is nothing wrong with black people speaking up when "one of their own" gets shafted or done over. Hell I speak up plenty for fellow Irishmen, and Dutchmen if necessary, that I don't know personally. What is wrong is the generalising attitude of "you're white so it's your fault too".
For example: Last week a monument was reveiled in Amsterdam to "remember" slavery. So what happens? Several groups demanded the Dutch queen apologise in name of the Dutch people to countries like the Surinam for slavery. Which is cool if the demand was to apologise for past generations. No, she was supposed to apologise in name of all generations including this one. Well they can take the following apology from me, as half a Dutchman.
What is good about the Rodney King trial is that it used all the evidence and everything that happened that night, not just a videotape that starts in the middle of it all.
What's bad about the whole trial is that there is no need to beat the crap out of someone like that, even if he is a bastard like Rodney King. They should have never been let off.
The officer obviously didn't feel it was a self-defense issue, the pepper spray and baton were used to get the guy to give him his other hand. I haven't seen the video, but from your description I don't see it as a self-defense issue, either, so I don't know why the gun thing keeps coming up.
From the sound of it the guy was just saying "You can't take me alone because I'm bigger than you." not "You'll never take me alive, see, yeah see yeah!". So what you do at that point is call for backup and say you've got a really big guy you can't get cuffs on. 3 or 4 officers get there and they can wrestle the suspect down, no more cute stuff from the big man. Tell him that if he doesn't give you an opportunity to get his other hand you'll book him with resisting and do it when he gets wrestled down.
[quote]What is good about the Rodney King trial is that it used all the evidence and everything that happened that night, not just a videotape that starts in the middle of it all.<hr></blockquote>
He was on PCP and other drugs, yes. He fought the cops, yes. He wouldn't cooperate, yes. I don't care how much backstory you give me but when I see a completely immobile man getting savagely beaten by 4+ cops with batons for over 10 seconds I don't think, "Wow, I wonder what he did to deserve that?".
How about we just put a moratorium on law and see how your quality of life improves, you bleeding heart motherfvckers. You know who you are.
Cop tells me to get down, I don't give a **** what skin color I have. I'm getting down.
I only saw a fvcking snippet of film on the news. The only ones that know what happened before are the cops and the people in the car. Unless somewhere, someone caught the entire thing on tape. I don't know. I haven't seen it.
Just a question. What about all those poorass white trash motherfvckers on crack that get the beat down by cops, but it's not caught on tape? If it's not on tape, does it mean it doesn't happen?
If a cop is an idiot, he's not gonna give a fvck what your skin color is. He's gonna beat the sh!t out of you regardless, if he wants to. And you know it.
ahhh shanny, always the voice of measured reason...
[quote] Cop tells me to get down, I don't give a **** what skin color I have. I'm getting down. <hr></blockquote>
me too, and quickly...but i keep going back to this boy with the learning disability that doesn't allow him to understand quickly what is asked of him....so let's say you are visiting China, but don't speak Chinese...cop pulls you over and yells at you...you don't know what he wants...do you get out of the car?? stay in the car?? hold your hands out the window??? any of these actions could get you beaten or shot if it is the wrong reaction to what the cop is shouting...is the cop yelling, "get out of the car", "don't get out of the car", "put your hands out the window", "don't move your hands"??? g (with the bleeding heart)
I can see what you're gettina at, geld. If I'm in China and some cop starts yelling at me, I know he's prolly pissed so I put my hands in the air and make myself look meek.
Difference here is, the kid wasn't being spoken to in a foreign language. Just because he's slow, doesn't mean he doesn't understand english.
Since I don't understand Chinese, your argument is flawed.
Comments
[edit: removed because it's just not worth it...I know who I am, and can't spend all day defending it...]
[ 07-14-2002: Message edited by: pscates ]</p>
[ 07-14-2002: Message edited by: pscates ]</p>
What makes you so cocky and sure that I HAVEN'T read "Black Like Me"? You don't know as much as you think you know about me.
Would be like me commenting on YOUR life or reading habits or whatever? How would I know?
[edit: removed because it's just not worth it...I know who I am, and can't spend all day defending it...]
[ 07-14-2002: Message edited by: pscates ]</p>
<strong>
I did see Maxine Waters on a show tonight saying "shades of Rodney King...".
.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Wait a couple of years and see if the kid is arrested high on crack.
In some of the posher areas around Miami athletes have taken to driving cheaper cars, because if they drive their expensive cars they get pulled over all the time, sometimes twice in one day. Ricky Williams (Hook 'Em!) recently moved there (finally out of New Orleans, thank God) and cops came into his garage badgering him about whose Mercedes SUV it was in the garage and kept asking him after seeing his license (his name isn't actually "Ricky" so they didn't recognize him). This is Ricky Williams, superstar and multi-millionaire, more money than all those cops and their families hassled like a street thug because he has black skin and dreadlocks.
Black profiling is epidemic, and until such discrimination is curbed I don't see why blacks should just take what officers say up front, because cops don't always deserve that courtesy.
I don't know the specific situation with the guy in Oklahoma but as far as I know he hasn't been charged with any crime so I'm wondering why he was handcuffed and taken into custody in the first place. Because he talked back?
What the hell kind of attitude is "if you just cooperate you won't get beat"? That's sick.
That's a Clayton Williams "just lay back and enjoy it" attitude.
The cop went up, opened the passenger door, the lady stepped out (officer didn't touch her, unless to kinda help her out...in other words, no strongarm stuff at all that I saw). She got out and the cop motioned for her to have a seat, so she grabbed some curb. Never seemed to say anything or resist or otherwise be difficult.
The cop then walked around to the front of the van and the man got out and kinda met the cop halfway. They were talking, the man gestured quite a bit with his hands, then he'd walk away from the cop a few times and the cop would follow him and bring him back to the other side of the truck. The prostitute was sitting there beside the truck, not really doing or saying anything. She's probably used to dealing with cops and just figures "hell, another fine..." or whatever. She was mellow.
The cop and the man talked some more, the guy seemed agitated in that he was leaning forward a bit more, kinda talking loud (couldn't hear exact words, but could hear the general loudness of his voice from the camcorder mic). When the cop would say something back to him, the man would kinda cock his head away and gesture with a dismissive, "get outta here..." kind of way.
The guy turned to walk, the cop grabbed his arm and then went to cuff him, got a cuff on one wrist, then the guy started windmilling around, dragging the cop with him, then the cop dragged back and was trying to reach the guys other arm to complete the handcuffing.
Then he did that leg thing cops do to trip/bring down someone (the perp was quite a bit taller and heftier than the cop, even the commentators on the news show commented on that as the video played...there was DEFINITELY some height/weight disparity there! This was a pretty beefy guy).
The cop pepper sprayed the guy, but the guy sat up and just wiped his face and didn't seem at all phased by it. He wasn't rubbing his eyes or anything. And he was gesturing like "why are you doing this?", and kept talking and trying to sit up, when the cop was trying to get him to lie on his belly.
Finally got on his belly, but he wouldn't give up his free hand. Kept tucking it under his torso and all, refusing to let the cop get it.
By this time, another cop showed up and was trying to help get the guy's other hand. Then there was a cut in the video, and the next scene was the original cop hitting the guy on the back of the legs (thigh area, above the knee) with his baton. I think the other guy may have got some hits in the shoulder/bicep area too.
Then it ended.
I don't know. Maybe the guy was married or a well-known respected man in the community (a preacher or school teacher perhaps?) and the thought of getting busted with a hooker freaked him out and he decided to not go easily, maybe thinking if he put up enough struggle or resistance, the cops would tire out and let him go?
If so, that's a pretty stupid thing to think. He should know better.
So, I don't know.
Point is, the cop had no beef with the lady. And had no beef with the guy, until the guy seemed to get his back up, argue, pull away, walk away, gesture more wildly, etc.
Everything started out calmly and completely normal. The policeman wasn't the agitator in this scenario, and was only talking to the guy. You could actually see the guy getting more worked up and animated as the tape went on.
As far as the white/black thing, 'rat, it's like the chicken and the egg maybe. Do cops beat on black people for sick jollies, or do cops working the street perhaps deal with resistance and trouble a bit more in the black neighborhoods? I don't know, I'm asking. I'm not a cop.
Maybe there's just this awful, built-in tension between cops and many blacks and it's a two way street: cop assumes black guy is not going to go quietly (because of lots of personal experience in the matter?) and black guy assumes cop is out to get him and kick his ass no matter what, so he feels he's got nothing to lose?
Which came first?
Still would be curious to see: if pulled over for something, do you think that if a black person who would normally cause trouble and resist were to just go "okay, I'm not going to inflame this...he can give me a ticket or whatever, and I'm not going to mouth off or act uncooperative", wouldn't it just be a normal, non-dramatic traffic stop?
You say "just sit there and be cooperative while getting your ass kicked...". Don't be ridiculous. I NEVER said that. What I DID say is that there's a very good chance it might not ever GET to the ass-kicking stage if everyone (perp AND cop) puts their baggage and bullcrap aside and don't do things to worsen the situation.
I doubt very seriously, the cop is pulling the guy over, sprinting up to his car, opening the door, pulling him out and commencing to beating him with a baton, just for the fun and thrill of it.
You act like it's an "either/or" situation: the black guys is automatically destined for a beating, so he may as well take preventative action?
Like I said: chicken or the egg?
What about all the black people who HAVE been pulled over, cooperated, got their ticket or warning (or, in some cases, even got arrested, but didn't go berserk and make it to where batons, pepper spray and additional back-up wasn't needed)?
Maybe they were just smarter and more pragmatic than your average, hot-headed street thug?
I don't think this country is, in any way, has this HUGE epidemic of white cops pulling over black motorists and beating them senseless for the sport of it.
I think it's little sporadic instances, here and there. But when something bad DOES happen, the burden is on the cop. As a professional, it should be of course. Believe me, I don't condone or support this either! That Inglewood cop should be fired, no ifs, ands or buts.
But again, I wonder how much role some people have in their own bad situation?
I don't think it would ever COME to a beating or "ass whipping" if maybe the perp DID cooperate from the get-go, and give the cop NO REASON to use force or pull out the baton and pepper spray.
Why is this so hard?
Again, the guy in the video had control over this situation. That cop wasn't "in his face", didn't have his gun or baton on him, wasn't pushing him around or anything. When he learned he was in a bit of trouble and was under arrest, all he had to do was present both his hands.
The ONLY reason the situation got the way it did was because he fought back, dragged the cop around, resisted, etc.
Not a very difficult situation when you look at the history of our culture, you'll see that it's quite obvious that what came first was institutional and societal racism that not so long ago considered violence against blacks acceptable in given circumstances.
Blacks had to put up with a lot of crap for a long long time. And don't try and tell me that has no effect on their children and grandchildren or that racism just up and left when we passed a few civil rights amendments.
It's not a chicken-egg situation, the answer is frighteningly clear.
Now, this kind of talk (mine) makes the hair on the back of peoples' necks stand up and think "Goddam Jesse Jackson race-baiting", but that's not me at all. It's just the way it is.
Whether or not that guy in Oklahoma was black I don't think pepper spray or beating with batons was justified.
HOLY SHIT...we AGREED on something!!! Stop the presses!
However, I think this guy could've danced with this cop all night long if he wanted to (outweighed him by quite a bit, plus a good 8-10" height advantage).
For the longest, this cop was by himself (no partner or back-up until the end of the video).
What's the rule? How long is this cop supposed to tussle with the guy? At some point, doesn't it have to end? What if, in all their spinning around and grappling, this guy managed to reach the cop's gun and kill the cop, point blank?
Is the cop supposed to stand there and dance around with this guy for 20 minutes? Or is he supposed to engage in back-and-forth grabs/punches for the rest of the afternoon?
The guy got off lucky with pepper spray. Since when did pepper spray become this horrible, sadistic thing? It's preferable to getting his ass shot, right? I mean, the WHOLE IDEA of pepper spray is to help temporarily disable and subdue the perp, right?
Nobody has ever died from pepper spray. The cop used it for the reason it's supposed to be used. AND, what's more, he didn't use it until WAY into the situation.
The cop showed quite a bit of restraint. Don't know why he ended up whacking the guy's legs ultimately, but up until then, he was doing everything legit and by the book.
Even one of the guests on the show who was supportive of the kid here in Inglewood remarked that the Oklahoma cop was behaving in a "very professional manner" and was legitimately trying to subdue the guy. He didn't even get mad at the pepper spray, being THAT'S WHAT IT'S FOR!
What was the cop supposed to do? Start singing lullabies and hope they take? Pet the guy on the head and hope it lulls him into a purring, docile state?
Don't tell me that pepper spray is now the official Tool of Hate, used by the White Devil to keep the black man down?
<img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />
I wouldn't be a cop for a gazillion dollars a year. Wouldn't be worth the hassle and bullshit you face everyday. Put your ass on the line and are scrutinized, second-guessed and armchair-quarterbacked 24/7. Criminals can do anything and everything and follow no rules whatsoever. You break the smallest rule, as a cop, and it's your ass.
What a burden. I could never do it. I admire the good ones, the ones who do it right. The bad ones, who screw it up for everyone else, piss me off. A few bad eggs taint the whole basket sometimes.
Well the guy never attacked the cop. Resisting arrest != assault on an officer.
[quote]Is the cop supposed to stand there and dance around with this guy for 20 minutes? Or is he supposed to engage in back-and-forth grabs/punches for the rest of the afternoon?<hr></blockquote>
Call in backup and physically restrain him. Hold him down with physical force of the body and cuff him if needs be. Spraying him with pepper spray and beating him with a baton when he hadn't acted in an physically attacking manner is uncalled for, in my opinion. There was no self-defense issue.
[quote]It's preferable to getting his ass shot, right?<hr></blockquote>
1) Shooting from cops is for self-defense, not lack of cooperation. The day we bring those two things into the equation is a scary scary day.
[quote]Nobody has ever died from pepper spray.<hr></blockquote>
Actually, a few deaths (that I know of) have been linked to restraints in addition to pepper spray. It's unpleasant stuff, I've had some stuff sprayed at me and it did a number on me.
[quote]The cop showed quite a bit of restraint. Don't know why he ended up whacking the guy's legs ultimately, but up until then, he was doing everything legit and by the book.<hr></blockquote>
I'd agree, but he's a cop so if he loses his cool for 1 second that's 1 second too long. Maybe that's not fair but life's not fair. He's a very powerful man and if we all watched Spider-Man like we were supposed to... 'With great power comes great responsibility.'
[quote]What was the cop supposed to do? Start singing lullabies and hope they take? Pet the guy on the head and hope it lulls him into a purring, docile state?<hr></blockquote>
<img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />
I would really try to rile you up and say you were being racist comparing the guy to an animal but I'll let you keep your blood pressure down for a bit.
Maybe in a more literal "lullaby by the way of Shawshank Redemption" way I think tranquilizers are good.
[quote]Criminals can do anything and everything and follow no rules whatsoever.<hr></blockquote>
Yeah, they can until they get busted and thrown in jail.
[quote]You break the smallest rule, as a cop, and it's your ass.<hr></blockquote>
Again, the Rodney King cops were acquitted.
I'm not saying this Oklahoma cop is like them, btw.
is that all?...what a lovely evening if you have done nothing wrong.....ok, and now picture that pulled over is your deaf-mute uncle....or your nephew who is learning disabled and can not understand instructions quickly...if your uncle or nephew is white, the cop may take a few more seconds, may be slower to react, may remain passive longer, and a potentionally "bad" situation never progresses and is not seen on the news or ends up in the courts...if your uncle, nephew is black or hispanic, the cop may talk faster, louder, more agressively expecting the "perp" to become either passive or aggressive himself...the cop envisions a bad situation and helps to bring it on...if the person doesn't immediately react, the cop becomes more aggressive...and the situation gets worst...it happens all the time and everyone here knows it...just tonight my daughter was out with 4 of her friends going to a movie...all of them white....they are going 51 in a 35 mph speed zone and get pulled over...the driver has a provisional licence and can't have more than one teenager in the car with her after dark...they are scared, given a lecture and sent on their way...if the car had 4 hispanic teenagers it well may have ended differently...i know that cops are almost expected to be perfect, and that can never be in any profession, but no...NO...situation is black and white (sorry for the pun), but cops have to be able to tell if a situation is dangerous or if a 16 year old kid is just learning disabled and not able to quickly understand what they want of him...if they can't, then they should lose their jobs....g
and yes i am a freakin' liberal...and my first memory of cops is when my mother took me to Century City to protest when LBJ came to town and it ended up as the Century City riots and i was 5 and had a bruise from my left hip to my right shoulder because the cops came through with their billy clubs swinging and caught me right across my back...but that same summer the cops played softball against the local hippies (the West Coast Walloping Weasels with their tie dye t-shirts against the cops in their dark blue t-shirts that said "Pigs") and it was a great time for both the hippies and the police....and, 35 years later, both memories are equally vivid in my mind...i have never disliked cops, but i have seen the good with the bad and i think the attitude of "Shut up, cooperate, do what the cop says WHEN he says it and the absolute WORST that will happen is that you get handcuffs on you and have to ride down to the police station in the back of a squad car, and get booked, fingerprinted" is very much a white man's attitude, and may not figure in with what "the worst that can happen" may mean to a person of color...it isn't always about race...and it is always about race....just depends what side of the fence you sit....sorry for the ramble....g
And 'rat, no racist intent to the "pet on the head" thing. Just trying to figure out how to settle this guy down without pepper spray or shooting him.
Didn't even occur to me...
Yeah, I don't think the guy was all-out "attacking" the cop. BUT they were grappling and hooking and grabbing torsos and arms at VERY close range (kinda wrestling while standing up is the best way to describe it?). Now, how exactly is the police guy supposed to know that the perp won't make a play for his gun?
Anyone bold enough to grapple and lay hands on a cop (violent or otherwise) is someone you might have to wonder about, you know?
Back-up wasn't there, this situation was unfolding (quickly, judging by the video), this guy had 8-10" and a good 50-70 pounds on the cop, they were close-quarter grappling, etc.
Doesn't the cop have the right (and a solid, legitimate reason) to perhaps be concerned for his safety? We've seen those "Real Life Police Chases" videos where cops stop a car, the driver and cop struggle, driver manages to get cop's gun (or, at the very least, makes a serious effort for it. One cop on one of those shows was actually shot and killed (just slightly off camera, but you could still hear the shots) with his own gun.
He's going around and around with this much larger, agitated guy for a pretty good while. Should the cop have to risk a bullet in the face or neck (at point-blank AND from his own gun, no less!) because this guy won't allow himself to be cuffed?
Does the cop have to take a bullet to finally be allowed to use force or get tough? Like I said, MOST people don't have the boldness or stupidity to put their hands on and grapple with police. The ones that DO, you probably have to wonder about and prepare for the worst.
If I was a cop and in that sort of situation, that would be the first thought going through my mind ("Damn, this guy is close enough to grab my gun...I gotta end this nonsense now!").
<img src="confused.gif" border="0">
<strong>...this guy had 8-10" and a good 50-70 pounds on the cop, they were close-quarter grappling, etc.</strong><hr></blockquote>
<img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />
That just sounds SO wrong! Heehee.
Hey, I think I saw this in a video once!
Let me re-phrase that: "he had a good 8-10" HEIGHT ADVANTAGE...on the cop..."
Weeeee! Hmmm...I'm tired...
<strong>
- The Emancipation Proclamation (1863): 139 years ago
- Civil War (ends) (1865): 137 years ago
- 15th Amendment (1870): 132 years ago
- Voting Rights Law (1965) - 37 years ago
- March on Selma (1965) - 37 years ago
- Rodney King (1991) - 11 years ago
- James Byrd ( 1998 ) - 4 years ago
I hear my relatives take this kind of position all of the time, and I just have to shake my head. </strong><hr></blockquote>
Excuse me, let me rephrase. I refuse to be held responsible for anything I haven't done or had anything to do with. Be it 400 or 4 years or 4 weeks or 4 hours ago.
I'm not saying that relations between races are the way they should be. I'm saying that there is no need for this "oh a black guy gets beat up by a white cop so all white people are to blame" crap.
I'm also not saying that this happens all the time. I'm not saying that all black people say this.
There is nothing wrong with black people speaking up when "one of their own" gets shafted or done over. Hell I speak up plenty for fellow Irishmen, and Dutchmen if necessary, that I don't know personally. What is wrong is the generalising attitude of "you're white so it's your fault too".
For example: Last week a monument was reveiled in Amsterdam to "remember" slavery. So what happens? Several groups demanded the Dutch queen apologise in name of the Dutch people to countries like the Surinam for slavery. Which is cool if the demand was to apologise for past generations. No, she was supposed to apologise in name of all generations including this one. Well they can take the following apology from me, as half a Dutchman.
Fck off!
What's bad about the whole trial is that there is no need to beat the crap out of someone like that, even if he is a bastard like Rodney King. They should have never been let off.
[ 07-15-2002: Message edited by: macfenian ]</p>
From the sound of it the guy was just saying "You can't take me alone because I'm bigger than you." not "You'll never take me alive, see, yeah see yeah!". So what you do at that point is call for backup and say you've got a really big guy you can't get cuffs on. 3 or 4 officers get there and they can wrestle the suspect down, no more cute stuff from the big man. Tell him that if he doesn't give you an opportunity to get his other hand you'll book him with resisting and do it when he gets wrestled down.
That's why we have those laws.
He was on PCP and other drugs, yes. He fought the cops, yes. He wouldn't cooperate, yes. I don't care how much backstory you give me but when I see a completely immobile man getting savagely beaten by 4+ cops with batons for over 10 seconds I don't think, "Wow, I wonder what he did to deserve that?".
Cop tells me to get down, I don't give a **** what skin color I have. I'm getting down.
I only saw a fvcking snippet of film on the news. The only ones that know what happened before are the cops and the people in the car. Unless somewhere, someone caught the entire thing on tape. I don't know. I haven't seen it.
Just a question. What about all those poorass white trash motherfvckers on crack that get the beat down by cops, but it's not caught on tape? If it's not on tape, does it mean it doesn't happen?
If a cop is an idiot, he's not gonna give a fvck what your skin color is. He's gonna beat the sh!t out of you regardless, if he wants to. And you know it.
[quote] Cop tells me to get down, I don't give a **** what skin color I have. I'm getting down. <hr></blockquote>
me too, and quickly...but i keep going back to this boy with the learning disability that doesn't allow him to understand quickly what is asked of him....so let's say you are visiting China, but don't speak Chinese...cop pulls you over and yells at you...you don't know what he wants...do you get out of the car?? stay in the car?? hold your hands out the window??? any of these actions could get you beaten or shot if it is the wrong reaction to what the cop is shouting...is the cop yelling, "get out of the car", "don't get out of the car", "put your hands out the window", "don't move your hands"??? g (with the bleeding heart)
Difference here is, the kid wasn't being spoken to in a foreign language. Just because he's slow, doesn't mean he doesn't understand english.
Since I don't understand Chinese, your argument is flawed.