Free Will or Pre Ordained (Christians especially welcome)

Posted:
in General Discussion edited January 2014
This is a question I've been interested in for some time, and would like to hear what some members have to say on the subject, especially after browsing through the Designer Universe thread.



For the Christians here (sorry, the only Faith I know enough about to have an intelligent debate, if it ever came down to that) do you believe that you have free will, and can do as you please, or that God has a plan, and that you really have no choice in the matter.



Or some variation of the two?



-alcimedes
«134

Comments

  • Reply 1 of 69
    powerdocpowerdoc Posts: 8,123member
    [quote]Originally posted by alcimedes:

    <strong>This is a question I've been interested in for some time, and would like to hear what some members have to say on the subject, especially after browsing through the Designer Universe thread.



    For the Christians here (sorry, the only Faith I know enough about to have an intelligent debate, if it ever came down to that) do you believe that you have free will, and can do as you please, or that God has a plan, and that you really have no choice in the matter.



    Or some variation of the two?



    -alcimedes</strong><hr></blockquote>

    I am more an atheist , but christian culture is a part of my culture.

    I think that many theologist will said you that god give us the free will, and the original sin is coming from the free will. if god planified everything in advance, he will be guilty to have let Adam eat the apple given by Eve. We have free will thus responsible of our owns acts, good or bads.

    I don't think that any discussion is possible on these subject but i am not a theologian my self : so i could be wrong

  • Reply 2 of 69
    brbr Posts: 8,395member
    [quote]Originally posted by alcimedes:

    <strong>This is a question I've been interested in for some time, and would like to hear what some members have to say on the subject, especially after browsing through the Designer Universe thread.



    For the Christians here (sorry, the only Faith I know enough about to have an intelligent debate, if it ever came down to that) do you believe that you have free will, and can do as you please, or that God has a plan, and that you really have no choice in the matter.



    Or some variation of the two?



    -alcimedes</strong><hr></blockquote>



    Does it really matter?
  • Reply 3 of 69
    alcimedesalcimedes Posts: 5,486member
    to me it's always seemed like a huge paradox in Christian belief.



    almost every person i know who says they are a Christian believes that they have free will.



    at the same time, they say that God is all knowing, all powerful and created the universe. there are passages in the bible referring to the martyr's names been written down (already) and other references to future knowledge, so this seems reasonable. (if you believe that what the bible says is true)



    it therefore seems logical that people cannot have free will according to Christian beliefs. God made everythign. God knows everything. God is all powerful and knew from before the beginning of time that how everything that will ever happen happened.



    so to me, seems like you can't believe in free will and be a Christian. if you don't believe in free will, it raises some interesting questions as to hell and heaven.



    [ 07-12-2002: Message edited by: alcimedes ]</p>
  • Reply 4 of 69
    brbr Posts: 8,395member
    [quote]Originally posted by alcimedes:

    <strong>to me it's always seemed like a huge paradox in Christian belief.



    almost every person i know who says they are a Christian believes that they have free will.



    at the same time, they say that God is all knowing, all powerful and created the universe. there are passages in the bible referring to the martyr's names been written down (already) and other references to future knowledge, so this seems reasonable. (if you believe that what the bible says is true)



    it therefore seems logical that people cannot have free will according to Christian beliefs. God made everythign. God knows everything. God is all powerful and knew from before the beginning of time that how everything that will ever happen happened.



    so to me, seems like you can't believe in free will and be a Christian. if you don't believe in free will, it raises some interesting questions as to hell and heaven.



    [ 07-12-2002: Message edited by: alcimedes ]</strong><hr></blockquote>

    For all those christians who think they have free will, let me throw this idea out. You have free will but only get to go to heaven if you do what "god" tells you to. So, if you want eternal happiness, you really don't have free will. Bunch of freaking lemmings.
  • Reply 5 of 69
    [quote]Originally posted by BR:

    <strong>

    For all those christians who think they have free will, let me throw this idea out. You have free will but only get to go to heaven if you do what "god" tells you to. So, if you want eternal happiness, you really don't have free will. Bunch of freaking lemmings.</strong><hr></blockquote>



    Yes indeed. That's always bothered me too. What's the point in giving us free will if He's only going to punish us by eternal damnation when we choose to exercise it?
  • Reply 6 of 69
    brbr Posts: 8,395member
    [quote]Originally posted by Hassan i-Sabbah:

    <strong>



    Yes indeed. That's always bothered me too. What's the point in giving us free will if He's only going to punish us by eternal damnation when we choose to exercise it?</strong><hr></blockquote>



    Well, it shouldn't surprise you that religion doesn't make sense.



    Of course, there is a reason why it's like that. Religion is a tool to control the ignorant masses. Give the people the illusion of free will but still threaten them with eternal damnation if they don't do what you say. The lemmings think they get to go to heaven and believe they have free will. Win-win for the men who wrote the bible.
  • Reply 7 of 69
    [quote]Originally posted by BR:

    <strong>



    Well, it shouldn't surprise you that religion doesn't make sense.



    Of course, there is a reason why it's like that. Religion is a tool to control the ignorant masses. Give the people the illusion of free will but still threaten them with eternal damnation if they don't do what you say. The lemmings think they get to go to heaven and believe they have free will. Win-win for the men who wrote the bible.</strong><hr></blockquote>



    Well, quite.
  • Reply 8 of 69
    thttht Posts: 4,029member
    <strong>Originally posted by alcimedes:

    to me it's always seemed like a huge paradox in Christian belief.</strong>



    That isn't a problem for religion. Being logical and rational aren't the point. It may even be necessary. Remember what the Book of Job says. Remember!



    <strong>at the same time, they say that God is all knowing, all powerful and created the universe. there are passages in the bible referring to the martyr's names been written down (already) and other references to future knowledge, so this seems reasonable. (if you believe that what the bible says is true)</strong>



    Well, a believer is free to choose, but God knows how the believer chooses (perhaps knows all the possibilities). Of course, this means Gods is, as others have said, an umitigated bastard, but that apparently isn't a problem, and perhaps a necessary function of the belief. Remember the Book of Job.
  • Reply 9 of 69
    Quick, everyone, let's dis God.



    Noah J's on holiday.
  • Reply 10 of 69
    brbr Posts: 8,395member
    [quote]Originally posted by Hassan i-Sabbah:

    <strong>Quick, everyone, let's dis God.



    Noah J's on holiday.</strong><hr></blockquote>



    A real smartass comment would be: it's pointless to dis something that doesn't exist.
  • Reply 11 of 69
    ?it therefore seems logical that people cannot have free will according to Christian beliefs. God made everything. God knows everything. God is all powerful and knew from before the beginning of time that how everything that will ever happen happened. so to me, seems like you can't believe in free will and be a Christian. if you don't believe in free will, it raises some interesting questions as to hell and heaven.?

    ---------------

    I don?t follow this. How do you NOT have free will right now? Just because God knows everything how does that even relate? There is no correlation where you are sketching one. You are referring to the age old 'predestination' argument. The simple explanation is God gave all me free will. That means you are free to go to heaven, or free to go to hell. Your choice. He is also all knowing. He knows where you will chose and as such, recorded your name in the appropriate book. There is no paradox here. You are refering to 'free will' as 'absolute freedom'. The rules which he made explain what you must do to get into heaven.

    ------------------

    ?For all those Christians who think they have free will, let me throw this idea out. You have free will but only get to go to heaven if you do what "god" tells you to. So, if you want eternal happiness, you really don't have free will. Bunch of freaking lemmings.?

    --------------------

    That?s right bud. Lemmings walk off a cliff and die. You walk off a cliff into a lake of lava. How does that make Christians lemmings? Sounds like you?re the lemming. Further what are you talking about? Of course you have to do what God tells you to do to get to heaven. It is your free choice whether or not you do as he commands. If you want eternal happiness you sure do have a free choice. What you are referring to is a common ?silly atheist? question about free choice. You aren?t talking about a free choice, your talking about a free pass. Having a free choice to chose heaven or hell doesn?t mean getting there is free at all.

    ---------------------

    ?That's always bothered me too. What's the point in giving us free will if He's only going to punish us by eternal damnation when we choose to exercise it??

    --------------------

    If you are exercising your free choice then it is YOU who chooses dumbass. Read your own bloody post! Like God would ever come down to ?punish you?. How pious! News flash, you aren?t THAT important to warrant God?s time buddy. You aren?t THAT special. He isn?t punishing anyone. You have the choice, and you are free to chose what you want. Sounds like you have a problem owning up for your decision.

    ---------------

    ?Well, it shouldn't surprise you that religion doesn't make sense. Of course, there is a reason why it's like that. Religion is a tool to control the ignorant masses. Give the people the illusion of free will but still threaten them with eternal damnation if they don't do what you say. The lemmings think they get to go to heaven and believe they have free will. Win-win for the men who wrote the bible.?

    ---------------

    Ignorant masses? Sounds like you are a substantial portion of those ignorant masses. (or at least you have one between your ears) Don?t surmise that everyone is a dim witted as you are. Don?t think your so clever as to have ?figured it all out?. How many times can I say over again, you have your bloody free will, and what the hell you do with it is your own dang business. I don?t care whether your in heaven OR hell. Your right, you do get eternal damnation if you don?t do what God says, and choosing whether or not to do as God says is your FREE CHOICE. What your really mean is you don?t like the consequences that are in place for choosing not to follow God and in doing so exercising your free will. Well guess what?.nobody cares what you like and don?t like. You can easily go to heaven, and have free will. If I chose to believe then I chose to go to heaven. Simple huh? Sometimes the lemmings leap off in herds, other times one at a time.
  • Reply 12 of 69
    NOTE TO MORONS:



    Not all Apple Insiders are atheists. Not all Apple Insiders are stupid either.
  • Reply 12 of 69
    [quote]Originally posted by BR:

    <strong>



    A real smartass comment would be: it's pointless to dis something that doesn't exist.</strong><hr></blockquote>



    Absolutely, but I was making a joke at Noah J's expense rather than engaging in theological debate.
  • Reply 14 of 69
    I knew a born again Christian who believed in that "Free Will" crap. Sure, it's cool to go to Hooters and ogle chicks, get drunk and rude to your wife and basically do whatever you please. Of course you have to go to church on Sundays...accept Jesus as your savior...and you're "cleansed"...all ready to raise hell the next week. Sad... <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" /> ?



    He's also the one too that said my late 16 year old nephew (killed by a hit and run drunk driver) went to Hell because he hadn't accepted Jesus as his savior...almosted clocked him for that.
  • Reply 15 of 69
    brbr Posts: 8,395member
    [quote]That?s right bud. Lemmings walk off a cliff and die. You walk off a cliff into a lake of lava. How does that make Christians lemmings? Sounds like you?re the lemming. Further what are you talking about? Of course you have to do what God tells you to do to get to heaven. It is your free choice whether or not you do as he commands. If you want eternal happiness you sure do have a free choice. What you are referring to is a common ?silly atheist? question about free choice. You aren?t talking about a free choice, your talking about a free pass. Having a free choice to chose heaven or hell doesn?t mean getting there is free at all.<hr></blockquote>

    That's not free will. That's coercion. god basically has a gun to my head saying, "do whatever you want but if you don't do what I say I pull the trigger." That is NOT free will.



    [ 07-12-2002: Message edited by: BR ]</p>
  • Reply 15 of 69
    [quote]Originally posted by Artman @_@:

    <strong>I knew a born again Christian who believed in that "Free Will" crap. Sure, it's cool to go to Hooters and ogle chicks, get drunk and rude to your wife and basically do whatever you please. Of course you have to go to church on Sundays...accept Jesus as your savior...and you're "cleansed"...all ready to raise hell the next week. Sad... <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" /> ?



    He's also the one too that said my late 16 year old nephew (killed by a hit and run drunk driver) went to Hell because he hadn't accepted Jesus as his savior...almosted clocked him for that. </strong><hr></blockquote>



    Sorry for your loss. Don't take out your hate for the world on a group of people who didn't hurt you. You must really believe in God to hate him so much. BTW, hipocrites exist in every religion. So all the people who do the things you mentioned above are better then the Christians who do it and then repent? Your nephew was at an age where he could decide his own faith and his eternal destination was in his own hands. In his heart if he believed I'm sure you'll be reunited in heaven. I hope you also join him there when you pass.
  • Reply 17 of 69
    [quote]Originally posted by BR:

    <strong>

    That's not free will. That's coercion. god has basically has a gun to my head saying, "do whatever you want but if you don't do what I say I pull the trigger." That is NOT free will.</strong><hr></blockquote>



    Yes it is. YOU have the gun, and you have the choice. If you can't take the respondsibility for your actions then that is another problem. Just because you dont' like the choice doesn't make it any less YOUR CHOICE.
  • Reply 18 of 69
    brbr Posts: 8,395member
    [quote]Originally posted by Jonathan Brisby:

    <strong>



    Yes it is. YOU have the gun, and you have the choice. If you can't take the respondsibility for your actions then that is another problem. Just because you dont' like the choice doesn't make it any less YOUR CHOICE.</strong><hr></blockquote>



    Wrong. It's not my rules. It's "god's" rules. It's not my gun. It's his. Don't you have some abortion clinics to blow up? Go away, jackass.
  • Reply 19 of 69
    [quote]Originally posted by Jonathan Brisby:

    <strong>



    Sorry for your loss. Don't take out your hate for the world on a group of people who didn't hurt you. You must really believe in God to hate him so much. BTW, hipocrites exist in every religion. So all the people who do the things you mentioned above are better then the Christians who do it and then repent? Your nephew was at an age where he could decide his own faith and his eternal destination was in his own hands. In his heart if he believed I'm sure you'll be reunited in heaven. I hope you also join him there when you pass.</strong><hr></blockquote>







    Yeah, sure pal. See ya there...
  • Reply 20 of 69
    [quote]Originally posted by BR:

    <strong>



    Wrong. It's not my rules. It's "god's" rules. It's not my gun. It's his. Don't you have some abortion clinics to blow up? Go away, jackass.</strong><hr></blockquote>



    Man you must hate it real bad when someone else is right. <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> This thread is about free will and free choice. NOT FREE RULES (jackass yourself!). It has nothing to do with 'who makes the rules' it's about whether you have the choice to follow them. Talk about miopia!
Sign In or Register to comment.