Hello. Nice to meet you. My name is BR. It's not often I run across someone who is on the same page as me. I just thought I'd take a moment to formally introduce myself.</strong><hr></blockquote>
How do you do? My name is Hassan i Sabbah, sort of, and really, the pleasure's all mine!
<strong>WOoo! Have you ordered from these guys before? I want to make sure they are legit before I pay any cash.</strong><hr></blockquote>
It's Kevin Smith's (director of Dogma) official web site. Don't think you'll have a problem there. I got the Jay and Silent Bob figures through them.
I promised never to get into these religious threads ever again. I have expressed my opinion many times and I am too tired to repeat them again. Here it is plain and simple.
God/Heaven = Earth...kinda simple ain't it? It's what gave us life and where we all will return to in the end.
Satan/Hell = Mankind if they don't stop getting off on these fairy tails, wake up and clean "God" and themselves up.
Is it not possible that we are Pre Ordained to have Free Will, i.e. God has planned us to have free will, to do as we please, and we really have no choice in the matter?
[quote]I don?t follow this. How do you NOT have free will right now? Just because God knows everything how does that even relate? There is no correlation where you are sketching one. You are referring to the age old 'predestination' argument. The simple explanation is God gave all me free will. That means you are free to go to heaven, or free to go to hell. Your choice. He is also all knowing. He knows where you will chose and as such, recorded your name in the appropriate book.<hr></blockquote>
ok, this is hard to explain over the 'net, but i'll try. first, i'll list my logical base that my argument is based on.
1. God created the universe.
2. God created everything in the Universe, including you, me and everything you've ever interacted with.
3. God knows everything. he knows what i'm thinking, he knows what you're thinking, he knows you better than you know yourself.
4. with the above knowledge, God knows you so well that he knows exactly what you will do in any given situation. how? he made you exactly. he knows everything about you. he has complete knowledge of your heart and soul, your concious and subconcious. you are his creation.
therefore, if you are faced with two "choices" God already knows what you are going to do. he's all knowing. his complete understanding of you means that there's really only one outcome to that situation. he knows what it is in advance.
also, he made you what you are. he made everyone you interact with, and everything you interact with. therefore, anything that has had any effect on your life in any way, shape or form was 100% his doing.
if he knows you perfectly, inside and out, and on top of that he knows everyone and everything equally as well, from the beginning of time, how do you have a choice?
along the same lines, in reference to the martyr comment i made earlier.
if God says you will die as a marytr in 5 years, do you have a choice as to whether or not you'll die for God?
no. because you will die. you cannot choose not to die for him at that point. it's already written down in his book.
that's how every little thing you do, all day long is. he already knows. he knew a billion years ago. everything you do was already planned in advance by him eons ago.
Get one of your own at the <a href="http://www.templeofblackjesus.com"; target="_blank">Temple of the Black Jesus</a>! RIGHTON! <img src="graemlins/smokin.gif" border="0" alt="[Chilling]" />
Get one of your own at the <a href="http://www.templeofblackjesus.com"; target="_blank">Temple of the Black Jesus</a>! RIGHTON! <img src="graemlins/smokin.gif" border="0" alt="[Chilling]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>
God is the source of all joy and happiness. You have a choice, accept him (be happy forever), or reject him (endure pain and suffering through the lack of God).
God doesn't punish you, he doesn't want to send you to Hell (the place without the presence of God) it's just that because of your pride, not wanting to serve Him, you reject Him at the last judgement and get sent to a world without God.
Being ignorant or not understanding the religeon is not what we call a mortal sin, you can still end up in heaven with our Father if you accept him at your judgement.
Prophecy plays a big role in modern Christianity as well as it's biblical origins. Prophecy implies pre-ordination of events in time, which in turn suggests that (according to prophetic Christian doctrine) that this is a non free-will Universe. But if we have no free will, then choices and decisions which appear to be free will actions are but an illusion, or impression of such. Then perhaps if events in time are pre-ordained, then humans are not truly responsible for their actions, for either good or evil intent. In that case, 'reward in heaven', or 'damnation in hell' appear redundant, if God recognizes that humanity is programmed and choiceless. If time runs linearly, from the 'past' through to the 'present' to the 'future' as normal human consciousness would suggest, then the concept of prophecy seems inconsistent with linear time flow. I find it hard to acknowledge pre-ordination; it would make all of our actions seem decidedly pointless, and judging by some of the horrendous episodes of recent human history, it would seem that a "good" or "merciful" God is not in control.
I place more credibility in the notion that we are in a freewill zone, and our actions (from benevolent to malicious) are registered by the universe, to be repaid in kind, in this life or the next, or the next, or the next.
Tomorrow, though, I may feel differently about it all! Who knows?
[quote]Originally posted by Samantha Joanne Ollendale:
<strong>
I place more credibility in the notion that we are in a freewill zone, and our actions (from benevolent to malicious) are registered by the universe, to be repaid in kind, in this life or the next, or the next, or the next.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Samantha Joanne Ollendale, you closet Hindu!
FWIW I believe this too. (Apart from the 'next life' bit.)
But back to thread. Noah's on holiday until next week and Fellowship Church is sticking to creation, so we can still have some fun for a bit!
FWIW I believe this too. (Apart from the 'next life' bit.)
But back to thread. Noah's on holiday until next week and Fellowship Church is sticking to creation, so we can still have some fun for a bit!</strong><hr></blockquote>
Too bad noah is on vacation. He still wouldn't tell me that I'm going to hell even though I know deep down that's what he believes. Maybe iChurch would be happy to oblige.
God made humans in his image. In other words, we are like him. He made us so we can choose our own path.
At your judgement, rejecting God is what you gets condemned. You don't have to be a zombie to end up in Heaven, you just have to accept God at your judgement. Through your pride you will reject him, and you will suffer an after life without God.
i know this is a religious thread, and i shouldn't have set my expectations that high, but will any of those who believe in free will at least attempt to answer the questions i asked?
i understand they're hard, but the whole mindless, regurgitated reply thing gets tired after a short while.
i don't mean to be mean or anything, because I know you meant well, but because BR doesn't know Jesus does not mean he is leading some kind of miserable life in which he is constantly searching for meaning and something to "fill the void." There are plenty of people who don't believe in God that do not feel an emptiness and longing inside, contrary to what is taught in Sunday school. Many non-christians are just as fine and just as happy as the most faithful of christians.
I'm not religious but I don't believe in free will, or at least not much very much free will.
There's another choice aside from just free will or pre-ordained destiny.
I think our behavior is determined by lots of other factors aside from conscious choices - genetics to a very large extent, physiology, past experiences and upbringing, even just simple social pressure.
Sure, it's possible to overcome those things and make your own genuine choices, but how often do people really do it?
I think people believe a much greater proportion of their behavior is free will than it really is. But it's largely an illusion.
I think that Nietzsche's response to the whole debate is the best approach:
free will: it is a Moot question: either we are free and act as we would, or we are not free and act as if we were, and thereby act as we would anyway.
The whole issue is moot.
There is no outside position from which we can know so it is meaningless. we are our fate every second . . . love your fate...amor fati
Free Will only seems to be a real issue because Christians need it as a loophole in order to explain how a perfect God could make a place like this, so beautifull and yet with so much horror and travesty, without either being imperfect because of the existence of evil or without meaning that evil too is perfection. "welll, you see, that's where our free will comes in...etc etc etc"
<strong>I think that Nietzsche's response to the whole debate is the best approach:
free will: it is a Moot question: either we are free and act as we would, or we are not free and act as if we were, and thereby act as we would anyway.
The whole issue is moot.
There is no outside position from which we can know so it is meaningless. we are our fate every second . . . love your fate...amor fati
Free Will only seems to be a real issue because Christians need it as a loophole in order to explain how a perfect God could make a place like this, so beautifull and yet with so much horror and travesty, without either being imperfect because of the existence of evil or without meaning that evil too is perfection. "welll, you see, that's where our free will comes in...etc etc etc"</strong><hr></blockquote>
Without Free Will, there is no love. So our existance is meaningless. God created us so we can love him, and he can love us. Without Free Will, we will be mindless zombies following his command, and we will be forced to 'love' our Mother, our Brother, our Sister and our Neighbour. Where's the point in creating us again?
Why can't there just be love. Why does it have to come with this fiction.
and is love allways really a choice? do you have a choice as to whether you love this person or not . . . is love made as an intellectual choice really love??
just some questions
. . . but like all the religious preachers on these boards I'm sure the substance and questions of these posts, and this one, will be thouroughly overlooked in favor of a quick cliche....
Comments
<strong>
Hello. Nice to meet you. My name is BR. It's not often I run across someone who is on the same page as me. I just thought I'd take a moment to formally introduce myself.</strong><hr></blockquote>
How do you do? My name is Hassan i Sabbah, sort of, and really, the pleasure's all mine!
<strong>WOoo! Have you ordered from these guys before? I want to make sure they are legit before I pay any cash.</strong><hr></blockquote>
It's Kevin Smith's (director of Dogma) official web site. Don't think you'll have a problem there. I got the Jay and Silent Bob figures through them.
I promised never to get into these religious threads ever again. I have expressed my opinion many times and I am too tired to repeat them again. Here it is plain and simple.
God/Heaven = Earth...kinda simple ain't it? It's what gave us life and where we all will return to in the end.
Satan/Hell = Mankind if they don't stop getting off on these fairy tails, wake up and clean "God" and themselves up.
ok, this is hard to explain over the 'net, but i'll try. first, i'll list my logical base that my argument is based on.
1. God created the universe.
2. God created everything in the Universe, including you, me and everything you've ever interacted with.
3. God knows everything. he knows what i'm thinking, he knows what you're thinking, he knows you better than you know yourself.
4. with the above knowledge, God knows you so well that he knows exactly what you will do in any given situation. how? he made you exactly. he knows everything about you. he has complete knowledge of your heart and soul, your concious and subconcious. you are his creation.
therefore, if you are faced with two "choices" God already knows what you are going to do. he's all knowing. his complete understanding of you means that there's really only one outcome to that situation. he knows what it is in advance.
also, he made you what you are. he made everyone you interact with, and everything you interact with. therefore, anything that has had any effect on your life in any way, shape or form was 100% his doing.
if he knows you perfectly, inside and out, and on top of that he knows everyone and everything equally as well, from the beginning of time, how do you have a choice?
along the same lines, in reference to the martyr comment i made earlier.
if God says you will die as a marytr in 5 years, do you have a choice as to whether or not you'll die for God?
no. because you will die. you cannot choose not to die for him at that point. it's already written down in his book.
that's how every little thing you do, all day long is. he already knows. he knew a billion years ago. everything you do was already planned in advance by him eons ago.
where's your free will?
[ 07-12-2002: Message edited by: alcimedes ]</p>
<strong>Buddy Christ looks great, but I'd rather have one of <a href="http://www.bbspot.com/News/2002/03/ocjesus.html"; target="_blank">these.</a></strong><hr></blockquote>
that is too fvcking funny.
<strong>Buddy Christ looks great, but I'd rather have one of <a href="http://www.bbspot.com/News/2002/03/ocjesus.html"; target="_blank">these.</a></strong><hr></blockquote>
Don't forget our African Americans out there...
Get one of your own at the <a href="http://www.templeofblackjesus.com"; target="_blank">Temple of the Black Jesus</a>! RIGHTON! <img src="graemlins/smokin.gif" border="0" alt="[Chilling]" />
<strong>
Get one of your own at the <a href="http://www.templeofblackjesus.com"; target="_blank">Temple of the Black Jesus</a>! RIGHTON! <img src="graemlins/smokin.gif" border="0" alt="[Chilling]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>
God is the source of all joy and happiness. You have a choice, accept him (be happy forever), or reject him (endure pain and suffering through the lack of God).
God doesn't punish you, he doesn't want to send you to Hell (the place without the presence of God) it's just that because of your pride, not wanting to serve Him, you reject Him at the last judgement and get sent to a world without God.
Being ignorant or not understanding the religeon is not what we call a mortal sin, you can still end up in heaven with our Father if you accept him at your judgement.
I place more credibility in the notion that we are in a freewill zone, and our actions (from benevolent to malicious) are registered by the universe, to be repaid in kind, in this life or the next, or the next, or the next.
Tomorrow, though, I may feel differently about it all! Who knows?
<strong>
I place more credibility in the notion that we are in a freewill zone, and our actions (from benevolent to malicious) are registered by the universe, to be repaid in kind, in this life or the next, or the next, or the next.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Samantha Joanne Ollendale, you closet Hindu!
FWIW I believe this too. (Apart from the 'next life' bit.)
But back to thread. Noah's on holiday until next week and Fellowship Church is sticking to creation, so we can still have some fun for a bit!
<strong>
Samantha Joanne Ollendale, you closet Hindu!
FWIW I believe this too. (Apart from the 'next life' bit.)
But back to thread. Noah's on holiday until next week and Fellowship Church is sticking to creation, so we can still have some fun for a bit!</strong><hr></blockquote>
Too bad noah is on vacation. He still wouldn't tell me that I'm going to hell even though I know deep down that's what he believes. Maybe iChurch would be happy to oblige.
<strong>
BR I do not want you to go to Hell...
I hope you don't.......
<img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>
I reject jesus. I always will. You know the result of it. Tell me where I'm headed.
At your judgement, rejecting God is what you gets condemned. You don't have to be a zombie to end up in Heaven, you just have to accept God at your judgement. Through your pride you will reject him, and you will suffer an after life without God.
[ 07-15-2002: Message edited by: undotwa ]</p>
i understand they're hard, but the whole mindless, regurgitated reply thing gets tired after a short while.
<strong>Always here for you,
Fellowship
</strong><hr></blockquote>
i don't mean to be mean or anything, because I know you meant well, but because BR doesn't know Jesus does not mean he is leading some kind of miserable life in which he is constantly searching for meaning and something to "fill the void." There are plenty of people who don't believe in God that do not feel an emptiness and longing inside, contrary to what is taught in Sunday school. Many non-christians are just as fine and just as happy as the most faithful of christians.
There's another choice aside from just free will or pre-ordained destiny.
I think our behavior is determined by lots of other factors aside from conscious choices - genetics to a very large extent, physiology, past experiences and upbringing, even just simple social pressure.
Sure, it's possible to overcome those things and make your own genuine choices, but how often do people really do it?
I think people believe a much greater proportion of their behavior is free will than it really is. But it's largely an illusion.
free will: it is a Moot question: either we are free and act as we would, or we are not free and act as if we were, and thereby act as we would anyway.
The whole issue is moot.
There is no outside position from which we can know so it is meaningless. we are our fate every second . . . love your fate...amor fati
Free Will only seems to be a real issue because Christians need it as a loophole in order to explain how a perfect God could make a place like this, so beautifull and yet with so much horror and travesty, without either being imperfect because of the existence of evil or without meaning that evil too is perfection. "welll, you see, that's where our free will comes in...etc etc etc"
<strong>I think that Nietzsche's response to the whole debate is the best approach:
free will: it is a Moot question: either we are free and act as we would, or we are not free and act as if we were, and thereby act as we would anyway.
The whole issue is moot.
There is no outside position from which we can know so it is meaningless. we are our fate every second . . . love your fate...amor fati
Free Will only seems to be a real issue because Christians need it as a loophole in order to explain how a perfect God could make a place like this, so beautifull and yet with so much horror and travesty, without either being imperfect because of the existence of evil or without meaning that evil too is perfection. "welll, you see, that's where our free will comes in...etc etc etc"</strong><hr></blockquote>
Without Free Will, there is no love. So our existance is meaningless. God created us so we can love him, and he can love us. Without Free Will, we will be mindless zombies following his command, and we will be forced to 'love' our Mother, our Brother, our Sister and our Neighbour. Where's the point in creating us again?
<img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" />
and is love allways really a choice? do you have a choice as to whether you love this person or not . . . is love made as an intellectual choice really love??
just some questions
. . . but like all the religious preachers on these boards I'm sure the substance and questions of these posts, and this one, will be thouroughly overlooked in favor of a quick cliche....