[quote]alcimedes... You are trying your hardest to provoke the Believers here I suppose with your comments.. Let me just say that you only reflect upon yourself and I would suggest that you come to know Jesus..
You have no idea how absolutely childish your remarks above are.. <hr></blockquote>
hmm, didn't mean to sound childish, but i've noticed a rather consistent trend to answer around what i've asked without answering anything.
reminds me of politicians when they get a tough question and just spin around the answer and move merrily along their way.
i'm not trying to provoke anyone, but i am trying to find a good answer to a question that troubles me. there seems to be a basic logical fallacy in the Christian faith if you believe in free will.
if you don't believe in free will, it raises much harder questions as to the justness and fairness of God.
i've noticed that people ignore the first question in hopes of avoiding the second qustions entirely.
so, for those that believe in free will, how do you work around the logical flaws (as i see them) in that belief?
[qoute]Both exist... That will blow your mind if you think about it deeper..
But for me... Both... not one or the other...[/quote]
would you care to elaborate?
personally i think that kind of veiw is self-delusional and crippling. i thikn people don't want to accept the fact that they have no say in their lives and that their actions are predetermined, therefore they make up the concept of free will.
however, by its very definition free will is a slap in the face of God, it implies that God is not all powerful or all knowing, and severly restricts His majesty.
so yeah, if you could explain in a little more detail, that would be greatly appreciated.
One thing I want to point, out is that many Christians, particularly protestant denominations, post Luther branches . . . including, Calvanism, and, I believe Lutheranism itself, and baptists and many other American fundamentalist forms of Christianity, believe in a doctrine which expressly runs counter to the very free-will that they say is necessary for their faith. And that is the belief in an {i]elect[/i] and a preatorite. Meaning that it is preordained by god if you will be saved, or you will be given the grace to be saved..... and only a hand full are predestined... the rest are preatorite and no matter how pious they will not get to the pearly gates. Apparently, the point is that you never know if you are preordained or not, but if you are you better have been acting worthy of it.
<strong>One thing I want to point, out is that many Christians, particularly protestant denominations, post Luther branches . . . including, Calvanism, and, I believe Lutheranism itself, and baptists and many other American fundamentalist forms of Christianity,</strong><hr></blockquote>
What you are talking about is strictly a Calvanist belief.
Humans have free will. God does not make you do anything. We have the freedom to choose good or evil, and we have the freedom to accept or reject God. God is Omni-Everything (yes I know that is not a real term) and so he knows what you will choose, but he does not make you choose it. He offers you the choice, you make it yourself, and he knows wha you will do. He does not make you do it, he just knows what choice will be made.
Comments
You have no idea how absolutely childish your remarks above are.. <hr></blockquote>
hmm, didn't mean to sound childish, but i've noticed a rather consistent trend to answer around what i've asked without answering anything.
reminds me of politicians when they get a tough question and just spin around the answer and move merrily along their way.
i'm not trying to provoke anyone, but i am trying to find a good answer to a question that troubles me. there seems to be a basic logical fallacy in the Christian faith if you believe in free will.
if you don't believe in free will, it raises much harder questions as to the justness and fairness of God.
i've noticed that people ignore the first question in hopes of avoiding the second qustions entirely.
so, for those that believe in free will, how do you work around the logical flaws (as i see them) in that belief?
-alcimedes
But for me... Both... not one or the other...[/quote]
would you care to elaborate?
personally i think that kind of veiw is self-delusional and crippling. i thikn people don't want to accept the fact that they have no say in their lives and that their actions are predetermined, therefore they make up the concept of free will.
however, by its very definition free will is a slap in the face of God, it implies that God is not all powerful or all knowing, and severly restricts His majesty.
so yeah, if you could explain in a little more detail, that would be greatly appreciated.
What makes your "holy" book any more special than the thousands of others that exist?
<strong>
What makes your "holy" book any more special than the thousands of others that exist?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Oh, that's easy BR! It's because there are so many more Christians the others, so Christianity has GOT to be right.
No, errr wait a minute ...
now what's up with that?!?!
<strong>One thing I want to point, out is that many Christians, particularly protestant denominations, post Luther branches . . . including, Calvanism, and, I believe Lutheranism itself, and baptists and many other American fundamentalist forms of Christianity,</strong><hr></blockquote>
What you are talking about is strictly a Calvanist belief.
<strong>Quick, everyone, let's dis God.
Noah J's on holiday.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I missed you too.
Oh an BTW. I'm back.
Humans have free will. God does not make you do anything. We have the freedom to choose good or evil, and we have the freedom to accept or reject God. God is Omni-Everything (yes I know that is not a real term) and so he knows what you will choose, but he does not make you choose it. He offers you the choice, you make it yourself, and he knows wha you will do. He does not make you do it, he just knows what choice will be made.
Good to be back.