Do you actually use Linux? No, you don't, because "dependency hell" no longer exists for the majority of users.
Like the one's who stay in the "walled garden" of their chosen Linux distro's repositories you mean?
I thought big, mean Apple was being "bad" taking this approach.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Goldenclaw
Depends on your definition of hell. The package managers handle most of the dirty work now, but it is still very time consuming to install a program that has dozens of dependencies that need to be installed before it will work. And even then you're not guaranteed that it will compile and run properly.
Adding other repositories/mirrors to your Linux distro's "walled garden" software repositories can quite easily do that.
At least you don't have to recompile the kernel to add things like Bluetooth and 3G modem support these days.
Well if that's your solution then that just defeats the whole purpose of browsing and buying for apps in one central location.
Of course it doesn't. In the occasional instance where you want to dl a demo, you go to the vendor's site and do so.
For everything else, you get one click installation, multiple machine installation, replacement installation for a new machine, centralized update tracking and update downloads, and OS level app identification if you don't have the right application to open a particular file.
Seems like a pretty good trade-off for occasionally doing what I already do anyway to get a demo.
I don't understand any of those complaints. None of them are real. None are any different than what's going on now. It's just an easier way of doing things. Most apps don't have installers anyway. it's just a drag and drop. The apps that will need installers will have them built-in.
You're not allowed to sell software without getting the permission of the owner of the copyright, so unless you don't mind doing something illegal, which I guess you don't, it's a moot issue. The software you buy is in your applications folder, so you can back them up all you want. no need to re-download them.
As for conditions changing, do you know of any developer, such as MS who doesn't have conditions that are at least as complex and difficult? I don't. Apple is much better in this regard.
So let me get this straight...
You don't understand that it's possible to not have an internet connection
You don't understand that you can't get an internet connection everywhere on the planet
You don't understand that the internet is provided by services that sometimes fail
You don't understand that you can't just burn a copy of your application folder and have them backed up
You don't understand that versions of Mac OS change
You don't understand that not all computers run the newest OS all of the time
You don't understand that there is no way to have a legacy copy of software with the app store
You don't understand that you CAN re-sell media and software legally
You don't understand that there are hackers
Dude... That's a lot of very elementary concepts that you should understand.
My concerns are valid. Regardless of your rather long list of things you don't understand.
Answer this... anyone, if you can:
What happens if you buy a copy of software from the app store and Apple decides to kill it? You can't just go get updates from the developer - they have no record of you. Also, the nature in which the app store software is packaged, it will not be compatible with 3rd party updates.
What if Apple pulls shit like they did with the mobile app store where versions of software don't work without the newest OS or vise versa? they brick you? Your forced to start upgrading at Apple's whim?
No business or institution is going to put themselves in a position where they risk going out of business on Steve Job's whim. Get real.
It's a fart app store. That's it.
Not overly worried. There will always be resistance to these totalitarian business practices by corporations to control the population and demand obedience.
Not overly worried. There will always be resistance to these totalitarian business practices by corporations to control the population and demand obedience.
cheers
What if you were in the highlands of New Guinea and your battery went flat and there was no electricity and no brick and mortar software stores anywhere... blah, blah, blah.
What a crock of "what ifs".
So which fart Apps are you referring to, as there are none?
"Search results for"fart"
Did you mean Kart?"
is the result I got.
Were you one of the whiners who kept going on about "pull my finger" being pulled from the App store, so much so that Apple reinstated it opening the floodgates for "Fart Apps".
Don't you think it's a bit contradictory to whine about Apples policies re: removal of fart Apps then try and denigrate Apples efforts as "nothing but Fart App stores".
I'm trying to figure out what it is about Apple launching the Mac App Store that would bring out Linux partisans.
Linux distros have an easy-for-Linux method of installing apps. I remember Autopackager(?) but I think that is now defunct.
Bottom line: They see an app that is used to install other apps, draw the obvious comparison even though it stops there, and assume Apple is copying from Linux.
I'm trying to figure out what it is about Apple launching the Mac App Store that would bring out Linux partisans.
I know, it is weird. I'm the biggest Linux fan you'll meet but it has nothing to do with Apple. I use Mac for everything desktop and productivity and Linux for servers. There really isn't any overlap.
You don't understand that it's possible to not have an internet connection
You don't understand that you can't get an internet connection everywhere on the planet
You don't understand that the internet is provided by services that sometimes fail
You don't understand that you can't just burn a copy of your application folder and have them backed up
You don't understand that versions of Mac OS change
You don't understand that not all computers run the newest OS all of the time
You don't understand that there is no way to have a legacy copy of software with the app store
You don't understand that you CAN re-sell media and software legally
You don't understand that there are hackers
Agree with all the above. Not sure what hackers have to do with it, except to say that If you can't connect to the Internet, then you probably don't have to worry about the hackers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rain
Answer this... anyone, if you can:
What happens if you buy a copy of software from the app store and Apple decides to kill it?
By "kill it" do you mean where Apple quits offering the app for sale that you purchased? Or do you mean that Apple scans your computer and deletes it without your consent. If the former, then I'd say Apple is within their right to stop offering any app for sale at any time and they don't have to say why. Would it be wise? No. But, legal? Yes. It's their store they can do what they want with it. And it's just one of many distribution channels for developers to get their apps to users. If you meant the latter, then I don't think Apple cares so much about what apps you have on your computer that they will pause development of their next great product just so they can give you the amount of time and energy required to see what's on your computer and then decide what to delete. If you're worried, you can always move somewhere that has no Internet. There are places like that as we know you understand.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rain
You can't just go get updates from the developer - they have no record of you.
Why can't you get update from the developer? You run an update. It checks to see that the software is installed. The software gets updated. Why do they need a record of you?
Quote:
Originally Posted by rain
Also, the nature in which the app store software is packaged, it will not be compatible with 3rd party updates.
What is different about how the app store software is packaged? By "3rd party updates" do you mean add-ons and plug-ins? If so, then it is the responsibility of 3rd party plug-in developers to maintain compatibility by updating their plug-ins. Or by "3rd party updates" did you mean jail breaking? Well, Macs aren't really in jail anyway. (Neither is iPhone, but that's for a different thread.) Or did you mean hacks to avoid paying for software? If so, then you need to support developers by buying their software instead of stealing it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rain
What if Apple pulls shit like they did with the mobile app store where versions of software don't work without the newest OS or vise versa?
And what if Apple switches to Intel processors enabling the addition of powerful features to iMovie that even a G5 can't run? Oh wait...
Quote:
Originally Posted by rain
they brick you?
Not intentionally. If it breaks, it breaks. Software doesn't automatically work with other software. It has to be made that way. Very precisely. Apple should be free to make whatever changes they feel are necessary to improve their platform. It is the responsibility of 3rd party developers to develop apps that work well on the platform. It is also the responsibility of 3rd party developers to update their apps when the time comes. If a method is known to be deprecated shortly, then stop using that method and start using the method that replaces it. Platform leads; end user apps follow. Not vice verse.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rain
Your forced to start upgrading at Apple's whim?
Nobody is forcing you to upgrade. But when you see what cool new features they add, you'll probably want to. It's frustrating if you are unable to right away. Just work with and be content with what you've got. If you plan for upgrades ahead of time, you increase your chances of being able to when the time comes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rain
It's a fart app store. That's it.
If by "fart app store" you mean a store where I can purchase iMovie '11 and make a movie of myself passing wind than maybe you are correct. I prefer making movies of my family for the aunts, uncles, and grand parents to enjoy.
I know, it is weird. I'm the biggest Linux fan you'll meet but it has nothing to do with Apple. I use Mac for everything desktop and productivity and Linux for servers. There really isn't any overlap.
There have been apps to install other apps for as long as I can remember, but to claim that Apple didn?t innovate anything with the Mac App Store is like saying that because cut/copy/paste existed that they didn?t innovate anything getting it to work so well on iOS.
Because they did it with the iPhone/iPad 3 years earlier?
I remember software repos before the iOS devices and their App Store.
Yes, the Apple App Store is different than the Linux model. By far prettier, and has more apps you can pay for. The concept of a centralized location for downloading computer software as being new or innovative is the only point of contention I have. How Apple does it, seems to be much more user friendly.
Apple does this VERY well: take existing ideas, roll them into a pretty and marketable packages, hype it up, and sell like crazy. Sometimes, I wish I was a shareholder, as they are making a huge profit off of it!
I remember software repos before the iOS devices and their App Store.
Yes, the Apple App Store is different than the Linux model. By far prettier, and has more apps you can pay for. The concept of a centralized location for downloading computer software as being new or innovative is the only point of contention I have. How Apple does it, seems to be much more user friendly.
Apple does this VERY well: take existing ideas, roll them into a pretty and marketable packages, hype it up, and sell like crazy. Sometimes, I wish I was a shareholder, as they are making a huge profit off of it!
I say it?s a lot more than making it pretty. They are also making it more streamlined. This is harder than I suspect most people assume or wouldn?t everything be streamlined and prettified?
I've seen no "partisans" here (I can't even say with any confidence that I know what a "partisan" is in the context of computer operating systems. Ah, how I miss the early Mac community).
Well, SL is still being offered at apple website for 29.95 .... pretty good deal, imho.
Speaking of SL, I wonder if it’ll be feasible in the future for Apple to push paid for Mac system updates through a service like Mac App Store. I’d think it would first have to dynamically provision a partition for storing the installation files but that doesn’t seem like much of an issue to me so long as it checks and configures beforehand.
I mention this because when the optical drives start to get downsized the most likely option will be to use flash drives to sell your OS on physical media . While this is fine for buying a new Mac as the overall cost is minimal and can countered by the savings from the optical drive, sold only as an OS upgrade would substantially add to the cost is Apple continues these inexpensive upgrades?
Comments
Do you actually use Linux? No, you don't, because "dependency hell" no longer exists for the majority of users.
Like the one's who stay in the "walled garden" of their chosen Linux distro's repositories you mean?
I thought big, mean Apple was being "bad" taking this approach.
Depends on your definition of hell. The package managers handle most of the dirty work now, but it is still very time consuming to install a program that has dozens of dependencies that need to be installed before it will work. And even then you're not guaranteed that it will compile and run properly.
Adding other repositories/mirrors to your Linux distro's "walled garden" software repositories can quite easily do that.
At least you don't have to recompile the kernel to add things like Bluetooth and 3G modem support these days.
Well if that's your solution then that just defeats the whole purpose of browsing and buying for apps in one central location.
Of course it doesn't. In the occasional instance where you want to dl a demo, you go to the vendor's site and do so.
For everything else, you get one click installation, multiple machine installation, replacement installation for a new machine, centralized update tracking and update downloads, and OS level app identification if you don't have the right application to open a particular file.
Seems like a pretty good trade-off for occasionally doing what I already do anyway to get a demo.
I don't understand any of those complaints. None of them are real. None are any different than what's going on now. It's just an easier way of doing things. Most apps don't have installers anyway. it's just a drag and drop. The apps that will need installers will have them built-in.
You're not allowed to sell software without getting the permission of the owner of the copyright, so unless you don't mind doing something illegal, which I guess you don't, it's a moot issue. The software you buy is in your applications folder, so you can back them up all you want. no need to re-download them.
As for conditions changing, do you know of any developer, such as MS who doesn't have conditions that are at least as complex and difficult? I don't. Apple is much better in this regard.
So let me get this straight...
You don't understand that it's possible to not have an internet connection
You don't understand that you can't get an internet connection everywhere on the planet
You don't understand that the internet is provided by services that sometimes fail
You don't understand that you can't just burn a copy of your application folder and have them backed up
You don't understand that versions of Mac OS change
You don't understand that not all computers run the newest OS all of the time
You don't understand that there is no way to have a legacy copy of software with the app store
You don't understand that you CAN re-sell media and software legally
You don't understand that there are hackers
Dude...
My concerns are valid. Regardless of your rather long list of things you don't understand.
Answer this... anyone, if you can:
What happens if you buy a copy of software from the app store and Apple decides to kill it? You can't just go get updates from the developer - they have no record of you. Also, the nature in which the app store software is packaged, it will not be compatible with 3rd party updates.
What if Apple pulls shit like they did with the mobile app store where versions of software don't work without the newest OS or vise versa? they brick you? Your forced to start upgrading at Apple's whim?
No business or institution is going to put themselves in a position where they risk going out of business on Steve Job's whim. Get real.
It's a fart app store. That's it.
Not overly worried. There will always be resistance to these totalitarian business practices by corporations to control the population and demand obedience.
cheers
That's one of the best stories I've read here yet. Thanks for that. Posts like yours make it worth logging in here.
So kind of you to say MacR. All the best!
So let me get this straight...
...snip...
It's a fart app store. That's it.
Not overly worried. There will always be resistance to these totalitarian business practices by corporations to control the population and demand obedience.
cheers
What if you were in the highlands of New Guinea and your battery went flat and there was no electricity and no brick and mortar software stores anywhere... blah, blah, blah.
What a crock of "what ifs".
So which fart Apps are you referring to, as there are none?
"Search results for"fart"
Did you mean Kart?"
is the result I got.
Were you one of the whiners who kept going on about "pull my finger" being pulled from the App store, so much so that Apple reinstated it opening the floodgates for "Fart Apps".
Don't you think it's a bit contradictory to whine about Apples policies re: removal of fart Apps then try and denigrate Apples efforts as "nothing but Fart App stores".
You wanted it you got it.
Ignore list time, troll.
I'm trying to figure out what it is about Apple launching the Mac App Store that would bring out Linux partisans.
Linux distros have an easy-for-Linux method of installing apps. I remember Autopackager(?) but I think that is now defunct.Bottom line: They see an app that is used to install other apps, draw the obvious comparison even though it stops there, and assume Apple is copying from Linux.
I'm trying to figure out what it is about Apple launching the Mac App Store that would bring out Linux partisans.
The fact people are claiming Apple's App Store to be "Innovative". Its pretty, but far from new.
I'm trying to figure out what it is about Apple launching the Mac App Store that would bring out Linux partisans.
I know, it is weird. I'm the biggest Linux fan you'll meet but it has nothing to do with Apple. I use Mac for everything desktop and productivity and Linux for servers. There really isn't any overlap.
The fact people are claiming Apple's App Store to be "Innovative". Its pretty, but far from new.
Because they did it with the iPhone/iPad 3 years earlier?
So let me get this straight...
You don't understand that it's possible to not have an internet connection
You don't understand that you can't get an internet connection everywhere on the planet
You don't understand that the internet is provided by services that sometimes fail
You don't understand that you can't just burn a copy of your application folder and have them backed up
You don't understand that versions of Mac OS change
You don't understand that not all computers run the newest OS all of the time
You don't understand that there is no way to have a legacy copy of software with the app store
You don't understand that you CAN re-sell media and software legally
You don't understand that there are hackers
Agree with all the above. Not sure what hackers have to do with it, except to say that If you can't connect to the Internet, then you probably don't have to worry about the hackers.
Answer this... anyone, if you can:
What happens if you buy a copy of software from the app store and Apple decides to kill it?
By "kill it" do you mean where Apple quits offering the app for sale that you purchased? Or do you mean that Apple scans your computer and deletes it without your consent. If the former, then I'd say Apple is within their right to stop offering any app for sale at any time and they don't have to say why. Would it be wise? No. But, legal? Yes. It's their store they can do what they want with it. And it's just one of many distribution channels for developers to get their apps to users. If you meant the latter, then I don't think Apple cares so much about what apps you have on your computer that they will pause development of their next great product just so they can give you the amount of time and energy required to see what's on your computer and then decide what to delete. If you're worried, you can always move somewhere that has no Internet. There are places like that as we know you understand.
You can't just go get updates from the developer - they have no record of you.
Why can't you get update from the developer? You run an update. It checks to see that the software is installed. The software gets updated. Why do they need a record of you?
Also, the nature in which the app store software is packaged, it will not be compatible with 3rd party updates.
What is different about how the app store software is packaged? By "3rd party updates" do you mean add-ons and plug-ins? If so, then it is the responsibility of 3rd party plug-in developers to maintain compatibility by updating their plug-ins. Or by "3rd party updates" did you mean jail breaking? Well, Macs aren't really in jail anyway. (Neither is iPhone, but that's for a different thread.) Or did you mean hacks to avoid paying for software? If so, then you need to support developers by buying their software instead of stealing it.
What if Apple pulls shit like they did with the mobile app store where versions of software don't work without the newest OS or vise versa?
And what if Apple switches to Intel processors enabling the addition of powerful features to iMovie that even a G5 can't run? Oh wait...
they brick you?
Not intentionally. If it breaks, it breaks. Software doesn't automatically work with other software. It has to be made that way. Very precisely. Apple should be free to make whatever changes they feel are necessary to improve their platform. It is the responsibility of 3rd party developers to develop apps that work well on the platform. It is also the responsibility of 3rd party developers to update their apps when the time comes. If a method is known to be deprecated shortly, then stop using that method and start using the method that replaces it. Platform leads; end user apps follow. Not vice verse.
Your forced to start upgrading at Apple's whim?
Nobody is forcing you to upgrade. But when you see what cool new features they add, you'll probably want to. It's frustrating if you are unable to right away. Just work with and be content with what you've got. If you plan for upgrades ahead of time, you increase your chances of being able to when the time comes.
It's a fart app store. That's it.
If by "fart app store" you mean a store where I can purchase iMovie '11 and make a movie of myself passing wind than maybe you are correct. I prefer making movies of my family for the aunts, uncles, and grand parents to enjoy.
Not overly worried.
Are you sure about that?
I know, it is weird. I'm the biggest Linux fan you'll meet but it has nothing to do with Apple. I use Mac for everything desktop and productivity and Linux for servers. There really isn't any overlap.
There have been apps to install other apps for as long as I can remember, but to claim that Apple didn?t innovate anything with the Mac App Store is like saying that because cut/copy/paste existed that they didn?t innovate anything getting it to work so well on iOS.
Because they did it with the iPhone/iPad 3 years earlier?
I remember software repos before the iOS devices and their App Store.
Yes, the Apple App Store is different than the Linux model. By far prettier, and has more apps you can pay for. The concept of a centralized location for downloading computer software as being new or innovative is the only point of contention I have. How Apple does it, seems to be much more user friendly.
Apple does this VERY well: take existing ideas, roll them into a pretty and marketable packages, hype it up, and sell like crazy. Sometimes, I wish I was a shareholder, as they are making a huge profit off of it!
Oops!
They're only your friends because you pay them to be.
I remember software repos before the iOS devices and their App Store.
Yes, the Apple App Store is different than the Linux model. By far prettier, and has more apps you can pay for. The concept of a centralized location for downloading computer software as being new or innovative is the only point of contention I have. How Apple does it, seems to be much more user friendly.
Apple does this VERY well: take existing ideas, roll them into a pretty and marketable packages, hype it up, and sell like crazy. Sometimes, I wish I was a shareholder, as they are making a huge profit off of it!
I say it?s a lot more than making it pretty. They are also making it more streamlined. This is harder than I suspect most people assume or wouldn?t everything be streamlined and prettified?
I've seen no "partisans" here (I can't even say with any confidence that I know what a "partisan" is in the context of computer operating systems. Ah, how I miss the early Mac community).
? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-mTUmczVdik
By that you mean pay for Snow Leopard and then run Software Update, of course.
Well, SL is still being offered at apple website for 29.95 .... pretty good deal, imho.
Well, SL is still being offered at apple website for 29.95 .... pretty good deal, imho.
Speaking of SL, I wonder if it’ll be feasible in the future for Apple to push paid for Mac system updates through a service like Mac App Store. I’d think it would first have to dynamically provision a partition for storing the installation files but that doesn’t seem like much of an issue to me so long as it checks and configures beforehand.
I mention this because when the optical drives start to get downsized the most likely option will be to use flash drives to sell your OS on physical media . While this is fine for buying a new Mac as the overall cost is minimal and can countered by the savings from the optical drive, sold only as an OS upgrade would substantially add to the cost is Apple continues these inexpensive upgrades?