Nokia ditches Symbian, embraces Microsoft Windows Phone for new handsets

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  • Reply 41 of 266
    stuffestuffe Posts: 391member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by nht View Post


    They killed Symbian not Meego so they could ship their Meego tablet whenever they want. Elop indicated that there would be a 2011 MeeGo product and it wouldn't be a smartphone.



    The next tablet is likely ARM based like the N900 with a 7" display running MeeGo sometime in mid 2011. Not 18 months from now.



    MeeGo seems the only credible alternative, but who wants a tablet with a unique OS on it? Who will develop for MeeGo, given the vast plethora of existing proven environments? And as a user, whether you pick Apple/Google/HP/Rim or whoever, I am willing to bet that people want to keep within the same stable of products. As a percentage, I am sure there are next to no iPhone 4 users who want to use a Playbook, or Rim users who want a Galaxy Tab, or Android phone owners who want an iPad. Whatever your preference, it's likely that it's consistent over phones and tablets. I would not want a tablet no matter how good, if it did not integrate well with my other systems. I know that for my platform of choice, stuff I buy and use will work on all my kit. But for Nokia (and indeed all Win 7 manufacturers) there is no consistent platform, just a mishmash of products. And the other guys have the advantage of sticking their fingers in all the pies, so whilst Motorola (for example) cannot provide a phone/tablet Win 7 environment, they can do that with their Android divisions.
  • Reply 42 of 266
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by nht View Post


    They killed Symbian not Meego so they could ship their Meego tablet whenever they want. Elop indicated that there would be a 2011 MeeGo product and it wouldn't be a smartphone.

    The next tablet is likely ARM based like the N900 with a 7" display running MeeGo sometime in mid 2011. Not 18 months from now.



    True. I can't imagine it's going to be anything but a stop-gap solution until Microsoft can provide them with an ARM tablet OS.



    Or maybe they will just tell Microsoft to move WP7 to a tablet. I wouldn't be surprised if they had that kind of power in this relationship.

























    Quote:
    Originally Posted by stuffe View Post


    And what OS will they use? Windows Phone 7 Series Tablet edition? I think not. MS are simply not going to tread on Windows toes by upscaling the mobile OS into form factors that they want to put Windows on instead.



    For Nokia probably a customized Win 8 core running on ARM SoC with the tablet shell UI plugged in. I'm not sure about the App Store, (probably Silverlight 5 though) and from memory the OEMs (I this case Nokia) take a cut.
  • Reply 43 of 266
    stuffestuffe Posts: 391member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Firefly7475 View Post


    For Nokia probably a customized Win 8 core running on ARM SoC with the tablet shell UI plugged in. I'm not sure about the App Store, (probably Silverlight 5 though) and from memory the OEMs (I this case Nokia) take a cut.



    Possible, but that will be another boat missed by the time there is anything remotely credible shipping, and when it does it will be a V1 product entering into a market thats already mature. They will have the same issues as with the Win 7 phones, no momentum, everyone got their first, and they will likely enter the market with a product that only just matches the capabilities of products released years previously. It's a bad wind. It doesn't matter how good this speculative future product might be, and it doesn't matter a whole lot how good Win phone 7 is NOW (Good, I would say), because they missed the boat big time, and are playing catchup against people that not only have a head start, but are continuing innovating at a faster rate than they can catch up at. It's already lost from a market perspective, and most likely from a profit one too.
  • Reply 44 of 266
    xsuxsu Posts: 401member
    I think they would have better chance of success had they gone with HP and WebOS.
  • Reply 45 of 266
    tundraboytundraboy Posts: 1,597member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Logisticaldron View Post


    It?s like an episode of House M.D. where a parasite has been inadvertantly keeping you alive when you should have been dead a long time ago, yet at the same time the parasite is adsorbing so much of your resources that you are now at its mercy and can no longer survive without it. See where I?m going with this?



    No, please elaborate. Who's the parasite and who's the host?
  • Reply 46 of 266
    asciiascii Posts: 5,941member
    "Proven ability to execute" - it sounds like Microsoft's sales pitch was based on their past success on the desktop. But a mobile phone is something you carry on your person, which brings in elements of taste and style which a desktop computer running Office apps in a cubicle does not need. That is an important difference, and I wonder if Microsoft does indeed have a proven ability to execute in the space Nokia needs them to. Or is it true (as Steve Jobs said in the 80s) that MS just "have no taste?"
  • Reply 47 of 266
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Logisticaldron View Post


    MS to Nokia: ?You?ve got the looks, I?ve got the brains, let?s waste lots of money.?



    MS has the brains in this scenario??!! Did Ballmer quit?
  • Reply 48 of 266
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by island hermit View Post


    MS has the brains in this scenario??!! Did Ballmer quit?



    I was using a looser definition of HW and SW. Technically, even trolls have brains, even if they aren?t well crafted or useful brains.
  • Reply 49 of 266
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by msuberly View Post


    Symbian was about on par with PalmOS. They were good OSes in their heyday but died a slow painful death. If Palm hung onto PalmOS too long, then Nokia really held onto Symbian too long.



    I am surprised Nokia went with Microsoft and not Google. Windows Phone 7 offers all the disadvantages of Android but at a cost.



    I'm wondering if they are paying. The article said that that "Bing will power Nokia?s search services across Nokia devices and services." It sounds to me like that will include their feature phones and not just their smart phones running Windows Phone 7. I am thinking that may be enough for Microsoft to forgo it's normal licensing fees.
  • Reply 50 of 266
    So this is it then! Nokia get's finally ballmered!
  • Reply 51 of 266
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Project2501 View Post


    I guess Nokia didn't want to be just another android company. Is there really anything to differentiate ones products in Android camp. I think consumers are more loyal to Android, than single manufacturer.



    How do you differentiate yourself in the Windows cloner market?



    What does Microsoft get out of this...

    1) another paying licensee of their failed Windows Phone OS

    2) sell Nokia developers IDE, OSes, Databases,etc....

    3) force their online services on Nokia users



    basically a big pay day.



    What does Nokia get out of this....

    1) pay Microsoft for Window Phone OS

    2) become a clone maker with nothing to differentiate themselves from other Windows Phone OS suckers, i mean clone makers

    3) front row seat to watch Microsoft make money hand over fist while they race to the bottom in competition with other clone makers.



    There is nothing here which will benefit Nokia. It is as if the Microsoft guy they got is on a mission to destroy the company so it could be bought by Microsoft in the future so Microsoft can back stab their partners and release their own phone.
  • Reply 52 of 266
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by nicolbolas View Post


    I personally think that if RIM doesn't get its buissness market back up, it will cease to be a player, if it can keep it back up, and hold it, i think that the mainstream market will turn into 3 (4) major camps

    1- Apple/HP- control both the phones hardware, and the software, allowing them to bargain with the companies they want to sell them through. i would estimate this would be 40-50% of the market. unless Apple makes a cheaper IPhone, and HP making a phone without a keyboard.

    2- Android- confusion, confusion, confusion, but cheapest still, running on cheap hardware well costing the phone companies/mfrs a small amount (less than WM, which would be with Nokia in this scenario) of money as possible. As well as apps that run on some phones but not others etc. probably controlling a 20-30% of the market.

    3- WM+Nokia. like Apple/HP in a way, but the software is developed however MS wants it, and the hardware however Nokia wants it, with minimum specs universal. This would not be as good as an enviroment as Apple/HP but would probably have a price advantage (over Apple, not sure of HP) thanks to lower margin. controlling 20-40% of the market



    What I find interesting about that is that it puts the market in a similar place as to what we see today with computers.



    We see Apple who continues making their own hardware and software as always (based on OS X), a linux platform (Android) that is all over the place, somewhat clunky, and free; and Windows which is a little more well put together than Android (Linux) but not necessarily tied to one device, and isn't free.



    Then we see a bunch of other smaller competing systems like WebOS that could either do well or fizzle out depending on their market presence.
  • Reply 53 of 266
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Logisticaldron View Post


    I was using a looser definition of HW and SW. Technically, even trolls have brains, even if they aren?t well crafted or useful brains.



    Ballmer's biggest mistake was to underestimate Apple's ability to enter the smartphone market successfully... and underestimate is an understatement.



    Now Ballmer is looking for WP7 sales people and I would guess that Nokia is getting a deal to hock MS sw.



    This deal puts both MS and Nokia on better footing but, imo, that's like saying you're stuck on a cliff ledge, your safety line just broke and you were able to put one foot on the 3 inch lip instead of the 2 inch lip.
  • Reply 54 of 266
    MacProMacPro Posts: 17,878member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by pembroke View Post


    "Ecosystems thrive"?

    > W T F does that mean to 99% of phone Users? Enough already, with 'Ecosystem'. Can't we just use the term "integrated services"?



    "Fuelled by speed, innovation and scale"

    > trite verbal diarrhoea.



    "proven ability to execute"

    > WTF does that mean - could it be that they "sell lots of units"? For goodness sake. And how is it proven? How well are WP7 and Nokia units selling these days?



    When any CEO starts talking platitudinous business-speak that only underscores the weakness of the point trying to be made - and the weakness of the CEO.





    I enjoy being angry, btw



    I bet Ballmer had to look the word 'innovation' up!
  • Reply 55 of 266
    rptrpt Posts: 173member
    Based on the alternatives, it is hard to see what better move Nokia could have made, there are no easy way out of the situation they are in; I consider it a fact that Symbian is dead.



    Going with MS they may be able to work out a deal where they will have an identity as THE MS OS phone, be a part of an ecosystem, and still keep a separate identity, I believe this would be a benefit to both MS and Nokia, and I think they both need it which may result in a MS more humble than they traditionally have been.



    As another Droid phone they would, like all the other Droid phones, slowly loose their identity, and be just another piece of hardware subject to the whims of Google; to most people the perception is to buy either iPhone or just any Droid, not a specific Droid. None of my friends having Droid tells me they have a HTC or a Samsung, they tell me they have a Droid, this leads me to believe that we will se quality brands like HTC and Samsung decline in favor of no-brand phones. (Assuming HTC is a quality brand, I had two pre Droids, and they certainly were not quality!)



    Also I believe you have to factor in the Finnish spirit into this, I have been doing business with the Finns for years, they are way above most nations in education and organization, thru a very dramatic history they are used to be alone or end up in bad company having to make the best of it (WW2, the Soviet Union, Swedish domination), and they simply don't give up.



    Nokia is not dead, they will take a hit short term because nobody will buy Symbian now, so they don't have a lot of time, but I have no doubt they will be a force in the future. This is good news for everybody, we need the competition.
  • Reply 56 of 266
    MacProMacPro Posts: 17,878member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by RPT View Post


    Based on the alternatives, it is hard to see what better move Nokia could have made, there are no easy way out of the situation they are in; I consider it a fact that Symbian is dead.



    Going with MS they may be able to work out a deal where they will have an identity as THE MS OS phone, be a part of an ecosystem, and still keep a separate identity, I believe this would be a benefit to both MS and Nokia, and I think they both need it which may result in a MS more humble than they traditionally have been.



    As another Droid phone they would, like all the other Droid phones, slowly loose their identity, and be just another piece of hardware subject to the whims of Google; to most people the perception is to buy either iPhone or just any Droid, not a specific Droid. None of my friends having Droid tells me they have a HTC or a Samsung, they tell me they have a Droid, this leads me to believe that we will se quality brands like HTC and Samsung decline in favor of no-brand phones. (Assuming HTC is a quality brand, I had two pre Droids, and they certainly were not quality!)



    Also I believe you have to factor in the Finnish spirit into this, I have been doing business with the Finns for years, they are way above most nations in education and organization, thru a very dramatic history they are used to be alone or end up in bad company having to make the best of it (WW2, the Soviet Union, Swedish domination), and they simply don't give up.



    Nokia is not dead, they will take a hit short term because nobody will buy Symbian now, so they don't have a lot of time, but I have no doubt they will be a force in the future. This is good news for everybody, we need the competition.



    I'd second your opinion of the Finns, great people. I worked with a company there and had many trips I fondly remember ... actually now I think about it most of those trips are a bit hazy. Boy can those guys and gals hold their liquor!
  • Reply 57 of 266
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Logisticaldron View Post


    Ouch! Nokia isn?t doing so hot in the stock market: http://www.google.com/finance?q=NYSE%3ANOK



    First of all, MS isn?t in decline. They are still growing their revenue and profits at a rate that outpaces the market each quarter.



    Second, the strategy of two less successful companies combining to compete better against others in a market segment isn?t uncommon, isn?t a bad move in and of itself, and has proven to be hugely successful in the past.



    Overall, I think WebOS would have been a better option, just as I think Android would have been a better option (but with a unique but steady UI that allowed for Nokia to differentiate itself, have it?s one Nokia Android app store that it approved and vetted, but not disallow other Android apps). The problem with these for Nokia is the problem they?ve had with Symbian, Meego, Ovi and every other piece of code? they suck at it. At least with WP7 they are paying MS for making an OS. And because of the WP7 sales being lower than expected MS needs them, too. This could work.



    M$ is in decline, but they have some cash cows and no real competition in certain places where they still have a monopoly. But everyone now knows they can't innovate and they can't be trusted. All their ventures outside of Windows/Office have failed or lost money.
  • Reply 58 of 266
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Firefly7475 View Post


    Holy crap! It always made sense but I really had a feeling Nokia wouldn't go for it.



    I suppose Nokia must have seen what most people see once they play with a WP7... it's the best mobile phone OS sans a bunch of tick-box features and a more solid App Store.



    Unfortunately there is a whole lot more to a mobile platform than simply having the best mobile phone OS like worldwide sales channels, mind share, confidence in the company, integration with other hardware and mobile devices and so on.



    Some of this Nokia can provide like relationships with sales channels and some mind share. I'm impressed that Nokia are backing themselves. I wonder if they will re-brand? Having "Windows" in the name of a consumer phone kind of sucks!



    Some Microsoft can provide. The early update being distributed (Apple style) by Microsoft through the Zune client is a big bonus.



    However some things are still totally lacking like the solid 3rd party hardware and integration iDevices enjoy as well as a Windows tablet that can actually compete with the iPad.



    Interesting times people, interesting times!



    I've played with WP7 and I don't like it at all. It has lots of eye-candy, but it's confusing, un-intuitive, and disjointed. Half the standard 'apps' I tried didn't work right or were useless. If this is the best they can do, then Apple has no worries from WP7.
  • Reply 59 of 266
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Blastdoor View Post


    smart move for Nokia, and great news for MS.



    The next platform to die will probably be RIM's. My guess is RIM will go with Android.



    I'm surprised by the level of commitment HP is showing to WebOS, but I suspect that no matter how well they execute, WebOS will lose due to what is essentially a very late start from scratch.



    So we will end up with three platforms, iOS, Windows, and Android. My guess is that in the long run Apple and MS will have roughly equal shares of the market (maybe 25-30 percent each) while Android will take the rest (40-50 percent). Apple will be the most profitable, MS the second, and Android will be a failure from the perspective of a Google shareholder as I think Google will lose control of the platform. Android will become the "generic" platform embraced by no-name producers, and those producers may frequently choose to eschew Google services, particularly in the emerging markets.



    I don't agree. I think we'll see a 4-way share: RIM, WP7, iOS, Android. Apple will enjoy the high end and all the profits, RIM will continue to have success in the business market where IT likes complexity and micromanagement, Android will have Droid fans who think it's "open" and will compete with Apple in market share but not revenue, and then WP7 will pick up the low end of the market for all those that don't know any better; and M$ will be the only WP7 'partner' making money - well, after loosing money on it for 5+ years first.
  • Reply 60 of 266
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Logisticaldron View Post


    MS to Nokia: ?You?ve got the looks, I?ve got the brains, let?s waste lots of money.?



    You just told everyone how old you are.... Well, at least all of us that are old enough to know the reference.
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