If 'App Store' trademark is generic, so is Microsoft's 'Windows,' Apple argues

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  • Reply 41 of 151
    mbmcavoymbmcavoy Posts: 157member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Arwald View Post


    The generic term for windows is "operating system" and the distinction between "windows" and "operating system" is quiet clear.



    Actually, it's not. Just about every modern operating system implements a graphical user interface, and almost every graphical user interface is designed around a "window" system.



    Mac OS, Unix/Linux (most distributions), NeXTstep, Amiga OS, BE OS, [...] all have basic user-visible interface elements that are referred to as "windows". Even iOS has "windows", even if they always full screen...



    So, "window" is a generic term that applies to most operating systems...
  • Reply 42 of 151
    mrochestermrochester Posts: 700member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by cgc0202 View Post


    Don't let your ignorance of copyright and trademark laws become the foundation of your hate for Apple, or any company



    As noted in previous post, copyright and trademark laws in the US and the world, allow the copyright of a word, to brand itself in a given field, if no one has copyrighted it yet.



    IBM -- may have different meanings, but the original International Business Machine (IBM), has trademark "IBM" so no one is allow to use it, as a trademark



    At the same time, a company cannot claim automatic trademark of a word, even if it the first to create or coin it, as was the case with the term "Aspirin" (see previous post).



    Then, there is the creation of a "new term" to convey a different meaning altogether



    Face and book may be generic words, but "Facebook" is a new term



    And, so is "App Store" (see above)







    but yout happiness, or those of the detractors here, is not the focus of copyright and trademark laws.



    CGC



    I don't think the issue is about who first coined the term or whether it is a new term. The issue seems to be that Microsoft now think the term has become so generic as a means to identify a particular thing that it can't be trademarked.
  • Reply 43 of 151
    buzdotsbuzdots Posts: 452member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by cgc0202 View Post


    Don't let your ignorance of copyright and trademark laws become the foundation of your hate for Apple, or any company



    As noted in previous post, copyright and trademark laws in the US and the world, allow the copyright of a word, to brand itself in a given field, if no one has copyrighted it yet.



    IBM -- may have different meanings, but the original International Business Machine (IBM), has trademark "IBM" so no one is allow to use it, as a trademark



    At the same time, a company cannot claim automatic trademark of a word, even if it the first to create or coin it, as was the case with the term "Aspirin" (see previous post).



    Then, there is the creation of a "new term" to convey a different meaning altogether



    Face and book may be generic words, but "Facebook" is a new term



    And, so is "App Store" (see above)





    but yout happiness, or those of the detractors here, is not the focus of copyright and trademark laws.



    CGC



    My ignorance of trademark law is boundless, but to use IBM in this conversation is of no value.



    Who did you say was the detractor? not me, shirley
  • Reply 44 of 151
    chronsterchronster Posts: 1,894member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by _Hawkeye_ View Post


    A mystery for sure, but let's hope he hangs on as M$ CEO forever!



    No way! I want MS to always get better, and bring us better stuff, so that companies like Apple respond with even BETTER stuff.



    Why don't clueless Apple fanboys understand the success of other companies is good for everyone!?
  • Reply 45 of 151
    mobilitymobility Posts: 135member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Leonard View Post


    According to registration # 2463526 or serial # 75879977 Microsoft owns WINDOWS, as well as a bunch of variations such as WINDOWS XP, WINDOWS ME, etc. I just looked it up in TESS.



    edit: Here's a cut and paste from my search



    94 75879977 2463526 WINDOWS TARR LIVE

    95 75811226 2729524 WINDOWS POWERED TARR DEAD

    96 75573286 2513051 WINDOWS TARR DEAD

    97 75982727 2640353 WINDOWS XP TARR LIVE

    98 75982782 2640357 WINDOWS XP TARR LIVE

    99 75517786 2635678 WINDOWS MEDIA TARR LIVE

    100 75888922 2559770 WINDOWS ME TARR LIVE



    Well done, but I have to say it was easy to win that argument
  • Reply 46 of 151
    chronsterchronster Posts: 1,894member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by mbmcavoy View Post


    Actually, it's not. Just about every modern operating system implements a graphical user interface, and almost every graphical user interface is designed around a "window" system.



    Mac OS, Unix/Linux (most distributions), NeXTstep, Amiga OS, BE OS, [...] all have basic user-visible interface elements that are referred to as "windows". Even iOS has "windows", even if they always full screen...



    So, "window" is a generic term that applies to most operating systems...



    No, it's designed around a SCREENED system, with different screens for different functions.



    The whole point of picking "Windows" as a name was that it was like opening a window to a new experience with each screen. As I said before, even today many people still refer to each window as a screen (mainly the old guys I work with who have been in IT for many many years.)



    So "Windows" is a creative term used to differentiate a specific operating system.



    If apple called their store the "iOS app store" and Microsoft called it the same, then obviously this would all make sense
  • Reply 47 of 151
    cgc0202cgc0202 Posts: 624member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by chronster View Post




    An "app store" is all that is: A store to buy apps from. Apple fails to realize that people have been calling software "Apps" or "Appz" for AGES.



    Don't let your bias cloud your reasoning. "Apps" may have been used before, but can you point to me any publication that has coined the term, "App Store" before Apple did? And, even if someone did, the original creator of the term "App Store" protected it with a trademark?



    If not, then a company can do so within a given time period, and prevent others from using the same term. That is the essence and intent of Trademark laws in the US and many countries.





    Quote:
    Originally Posted by chronster View Post


    If Microsoft called their software "Screens" then Apple's argument would make sense. The use of "Windows" was creative, while "App store" is not, plain and simple.

    .



    So, if it was plain and simple, and not creative, why then does the more creative Microsoft object to its exclusive use by Apple, since no one has trademark it yet?



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by BuzDots View Post




    Who did you say was the detractor? not me, shirley





    Read the phrasing again: " Your happiness, and the detractors...."



    That you are not lumped as a single group, is a recognition (or at least my understanding of your post I responded to is that you may supportive rather than a detractor... like chronster, LuisDias, etc.



    CGC
  • Reply 48 of 151
    _hawkeye__hawkeye_ Posts: 139member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by scotty321 View Post


    Oh, puh-leeze. Nobody ever even used the term "App" until Apple popularized it. Windows users never even called their programs "applications" -- they always called them "Programs" or "Program Files". Even Apple themselves didn't use the word "App" until the iPhone came out. Apple invented this word and they deserve the right to use it... nobody else.



    Go, Apple!!



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by redbarchetta View Post


    Actually, they didn't. There are myriad documented uses of "app" before the iPhone. It's fine if you wish to defend their trademarking "App store," but let's not revise history simply to make a point, k?



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by rf9 View Post


    BS! We used the term app commonly in the software industry long before Apple "invented" it. However it was generally use in a two word description like "native apps," "web apps," and "portable apps." Apple did coin the term "app store" though. Prior to them doing so no one ever thought of an "app store" per se. Even Handango which is arguably one of the first mobile application stores years before Apple "invented" the app store didn't call themselves an app store.



    So I agree Apple should be able to TM "App store" because I can't think of anyone else ever using it before them. Not successfully.



    Ha ha! Pretty funny. Well, you're all right, to some degree, and all wrong, to another. You're all just too young, apparently, to know the history of the word "App" and how it came into common usage.



    Apple did indeed coin the term "application," or "app" for short. But it wasn't for the iPhone. It was in the early 1980's for the Lisa computer, and subsequently used it for the Macintosh too. At that time most people in the industry used the term "program," or other terms which are now completely archaic, to describe what we know today as an "App." I know, because i was writing software before Apple was even founded.



    Incidentally, it was Apple ? or more accurately Apple cofounder Steve Wozniak - who coined the term Personal Computer, or PC for short. Ironic, since it was IBM which popularized, and M$ which subsequently usurped it.
  • Reply 49 of 151
    buzdotsbuzdots Posts: 452member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by chronster View Post


    Why don't clueless Apple fanboys understand the success of other companies is good for everyone!?



    We're not all clueless, but you are dead-on. Competition is the "American Way" - or used to be.
  • Reply 50 of 151
    djsherlydjsherly Posts: 1,031member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by mbmcavoy View Post


    Actually, it's not. Just about every modern operating system implements a graphical user interface, and almost every graphical user interface is designed around a "window" system.



    True. But probably not relevant. Perhaps it is better put this way: if Microsoft tried to trademark the term "Operating System" it is would likely fail. Whilst windows are typically a characteristic of an operating system (but not universal) it does not describe the operating system itself, unlike in the case of Apple's App Store, where the trademark being applied is arguably descriptive. Trademarks by definition must distinguish one thing from it competitors in the same market.



    Quote:

    Mac OS, Unix/Linux (most distributions), NeXTstep, Amiga OS, BE OS, [...] all have basic user-visible interface elements that are referred to as "windows". Even iOS has "windows", even if they always full screen...



    So, "window" is a generic term that applies to most operating systems...



  • Reply 51 of 151
    cgc0202cgc0202 Posts: 624member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by _Hawkeye_ View Post


    Ha ha! Pretty funny. Well, you're all right, to some degree, and all wrong, to another. You're all just too young, apparently, to know the history of the word "App" and how it came into common usage.



    Apple did indeed coin the term "application," or "app" for short. But it wasn't for the iPhone. It was in the early 1980's for the Lisa computer, and subsequently used it for the Macintosh too. At that time most people in the industry used the term "program," or other terms which are now completely archaic, to describe what we know today as an "App." I know, because i was writing software before Apple was even founded.



    Incidentally, it was Apple ? or more accurately Apple cofounder Steve Wozniak - who coined the term Personal Computer, or PC for short. Ironic, since it was IBM which popularized, and M$ which subsequently usurped it.



    As noted previously, only clueless people would think that the term, "Application" is new. It is the new term "App Store" and the right of Apple to trademark the aforementioned term that is being contested here.



    If you are aware of any publication that used the term, "App Store" before Apple did, please enlighten us.



    And, to reiterate a previous point, unless someone has already trademarked the term, Apple is within its right to do so.





    CGC
  • Reply 52 of 151
    notscottnotscott Posts: 247member
    ... added Apple, "So suck it."
  • Reply 53 of 151
    anantksundaramanantksundaram Posts: 20,407member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by scotty321 View Post




    Go, Apple!!



    You mean Apple!
  • Reply 54 of 151
    timgriff84timgriff84 Posts: 912member
    Like others have said, windows although an existing word isn't being used for the same meaning. Whereas app and store are so therefore its no different to someone trying to trademark the name tv store or shoe store, which sounds ridiculous.



    However in the UK our largest retailer of games is called "game" which too is very generic. So I would say its ok if you can show its recognised as only being yours which in this instance I don't think they can.
  • Reply 55 of 151
    anantksundaramanantksundaram Posts: 20,407member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by rf9 View Post


    BS! We used the term app commonly in the software industry long before Apple "invented" it. However it was generally use in a two word description like "native apps," "web apps," and "portable apps." Apple did coin the term "app store" though. Prior to them doing so no one ever thought of an "app store" per se. Even Handango which is arguably one of the first mobile application stores years before Apple "invented" the app store didn't call themselves an app store.



    So I agree Apple should be able to TM "App store" because I can't think of anyone else ever using it before them. Not successfully.



    'App' (capitalized) has something to do with the name of the company, surely?



    As far as I am concerned, the others can call theirs the Goo Store, the Micro Store, the Sam Store......
  • Reply 56 of 151
    bwikbwik Posts: 565member
    Apple may have pioneered a concept, but it is so broad as to be un-trademarkable. App Stores are clearly the model that others will use. I do not think Apple can trademark this linguistic concept, even if they did originally develop it. An app store is a conceptual thing that can easily refer to any company. Similar, indeed, to a "window." Apple is trying to trademark a generic noun.
  • Reply 57 of 151
    cgc0202cgc0202 Posts: 624member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by mrochester View Post


    I don't think the issue is about who first coined the term or whether it is a new term. The issue seems to be that Microsoft now think the term has become so generic as a means to identify a particular thing that it can't be trademarked.



    Not correct, as far as US trademark laws are concerned. Terms can become used, widely, e.g, Google, as in Google it, pretty quick quickly.



    Because applications for patents and trademarks take time to review and approve -- it is the time, when the application for trademark application has been made, and whether the term has been generic before that ... that matters.



    To my knowledge, unless you can prove otherwise, the term "App Store" is not in wide use before Apple filed its trademark application. It does not matter if "App" and "Store" are generic terms.



    If the term, "App Store" has been generic before the time of the trademark application, the first reviewer would have rejected it offhand. To my knowledge, during the first review stage, the application is not made public. At least, in the case of patents, the application is not made public until a final decision has been made by the patent office.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Logisticaldron View Post


    For once I disagree with Apple and agree with Windows. I think that App Store is too generic and that Windows, while potentially generic for windowed OSes in the 80’s, is so set and trademarked that if Apple had an issue with it then they should have said something. Now if Apple were to call the iApp Store and MS took issue with it I’d say Apple would have a case, not MS.



    What we think is not what matters in this issue, it is how the US Patent law reviewers decide whether the term "App Store" was generic before Apple filed its application.









    Quote:
    Originally Posted by bwik View Post


    Apple may have pioneered a concept, but it is so broad as to be un-trademarkable. App Stores are clearly the model that others will use. I do not think Apple can trademark this linguistic concept, even if they did originally develop it. An app store is a conceptual thing that can easily refer to any company. Similar, indeed, to a "window." Apple is trying to trademark a generic noun.



    Your reasoning is contradicted by the fact that "Windows" was trademarked. And, as noted by others, can you point to me a publication that would prove the term "Apple Store" was in wide use (generic) before Apple applied for the trademark protectection?



    CGC
  • Reply 58 of 151
    jimdreamworxjimdreamworx Posts: 1,096member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Ricardo Dawkins View Post


    Apple. the fruit. get it.



    Apple is not generically used within the computer industry.



    Now windows...
  • Reply 59 of 151
    _hawkeye__hawkeye_ Posts: 139member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by chronster View Post


    No way! I want MS to always get better, and bring us better stuff



    Well, there's a first time for everything, i suppose.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by chronster View Post


    so that companies like Apple respond with even BETTER stuff.



    Considering that M$ has always copied others, and never really originated anything themselves, it would be a first if they ever inspired Apple.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by chronster View Post


    Why don't clueless Apple fanboys understand the success of other companies is good for everyone!?



    Oh, we understand the concept. It's just has never applied to M$. In fact, it can be argued that M$, by trying to spread their monopolistic hold over the computer world, has done exactly the opposite. They literally plunged the world of technology into the dark ages in the 1990s. Finally, the long, dark winter is over, and creativity is blooming once again. And that revolution is being led by Apple.



    The only innovation M$ has ever shown is how to stifle competition, or how to make poor quality knock-offs of the hard work of other companies.



    I always chuckle when some says M$ is innovative.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by chronster View Post


    The whole point of picking "Windows" as a name was that it was like opening a window to a new experience with each screen. As I said before, even today many people still refer to each window as a screen (mainly the old guys I work with who have been in IT for many many years.)



    Of course Apple used the term Windows in this regard well before M$ copied the Mac OS and brought M$ Windows to the market.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Arwald


    The generic term for windows is "operating system" and the distinction between "windows" and "operating system" is quiet clear.



    If you're saying "operating system" is synonymous with WIndows, you are mistaken. But if you're saying M$ Windows is an example of an operating system, as is Mac OS X, Linux, Unix, VMS, RSTS/11, etc., then you are correct.



    An operating system is that layer of software which controls the hardware, and allocates resources. In modern years, it tends to include application frameworks and other APIs. Strictly speaking, it's not about a user interface (although in recent years, many people perceive it to be just that).
  • Reply 60 of 151
    For once I disagree with Apple and agree with Windows. I think that App Store is too generic and that Windows, while potentially generic for windowed OSes in the 80?s, is so set and trademarked that if Apple had an issue with it then they should have said something. Now if Apple were to call the iApp Store and MS took issue with it I?d say Apple would have a case, not MS.
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