BS! We used the term app commonly in the software industry long before Apple "invented" it. However it was generally use in a two word description like "native apps," "web apps," and "portable apps." Apple did coin the term "app store" though. Prior to them doing so no one ever thought of an "app store" per se. Even Handango which is arguably one of the first mobile application stores years before Apple "invented" the app store didn't call themselves an app store.
So I agree Apple should be able to TM "App store" because I can't think of anyone else ever using it before them. Not successfully.
I believe Apple has been calling their programs "applications" for a long time. But in any case I agree with you since there are other generic term trademarks allowed, for example:
This is only one of the many places where you lose your argument. app and store were both generic terms UNTIL Apple put them together. Nobody was searching for app store anything until Apple opened one, named it and applied for trademark protection.
1) It doesn't matter. It's generic now. It's a victim of genericide.
2) Google does show use of "App Store" prior to Apple's filing. Apple's own use of it goes back to 1998 when they registered the domain appstore.com. The term "App" was used at least as early as the early '80s. The first use I could find was in the term Killer App to describe VisiCalc (1979). Store has of course always been used. A store that sells apps is going to descriptively be called an app store. Just like a store that sells groceries is going to be descriptively called a grocery store. Try trademarking Grocery Store.
3) Searches for "App" and even "App Store" show up in Google's logs before the filing of the trademark.
4) Significant results are found when searching for "App Store" where you can subtract apple, itunes, iPhone, iPad, iPod, etc...
5) Significant results are found when searching for "Android App Store" as well as others.
Bottom line is that this is about confusion in the market. A significant amount of people associate an app store with being a place where apps are sold than associate the App Store with the Apple brand. Specifically, more people search for app store associating with other brands than any other name or descriptive term. In other words, trademarking App Store would create more confusion as people don't know what else to search for or call it.
I believe Apple has been calling their programs "applications" for a long time. But in any case I agree with you since there are other generic term trademarks allowed, for example:
Container Store
Tractor Supply
Software Etc.
Radio Shack
I'm sure there are tons of them out there.
The term "app" goes back to at least the early '80s. The earliest use I saw was "killer app" used for VisiCalc, but other companies used "app" a long time ago. In 1998 Apple registered the domain appstore.com.
Your examples are off. Those stores are distinctive. Without a Radio Shack brand, did anyone ever think to go to a radio shack in terms of describing an electronics store?
A better example would be TV Store or Electronics Store.
An important point here is that you can file for a trademark for just about anything. You can claim a trademark simply by using adding the TM mark...Example? However, the Registered mark means that it has to go through the whole process. Often marks go through and become registered because there was simply no opposition or obvious issue. Even then, they can become challenged.
So again in your examples, it's not so much that they absolutely qualified, it's that they went through without opposition or any other obvious issue. If there were stores that sold containers and were referencing themselves as container stores, they'd be able to file in opposition, or even challenge the registration (not that they have to, but they could).
In this case of App Store, there is opposition during the process.
1) It doesn't matter. It's generic now. It's a victim of genericide.
2) Google does show use of "App Store" prior to Apple's filing. Apple's own use of it goes back to 1998 when they registered the domain appstore.com. The term "App" was used at least as early as the early '80s. The first use I could find was in the term Killer App to describe VisiCalc (1979). Store has of course always been used. A store that sells apps is going to descriptively be called an app store. Just like a store that sells groceries is going to be descriptively called a grocery store. Try trademarking Grocery Store.
3) Searches for "App" and even "App Store" show up in Google's logs before the filing of the trademark.
4) Significant results are found when searching for "App Store" where you can subtract apple, itunes, iPhone, iPad, iPod, etc...
5) Significant results are found when searching for "Android App Store" as well as others.
Bottom line is that this is about confusion in the market. A significant amount of people associate an app store with being a place where apps are sold than associate the App Store with the Apple brand. Specifically, more people search for app store associating with other brands than any other name or descriptive term. In other words, trademarking App Store would create more confusion as people don't know what else to search for or call it.
Genericide may happen for extremely popular products but does not override the trademark see KLEENEX.
Searches for app are irrelevant to the discussion. A few searches for app store before Apple applied for trademark wouldn't be a trademark stopping problem either.
As for 4 and 5 since they occurred mostly after and by your admission are mostly for Apple products should help Apple get the trademark. Android has Android Market but unfortunately people always remember the most popular things when searching and may not get relevant results but they will get more descriptive as needed to find what they want, like searching for Android applications.
Genericide may happen for extremely popular products but does not override the trademark see KLEENEX.
Right, and what did Kleenex have to do?
They almost lost the trademark due to genericide, and had to use the brand along with a descriptor. Thus it became "Kleenex brand tissues". This worked because Kleenex itself wasn't descriptive. Had Kleenex tried to trademark "tissues", they wouldn't have been able to of course, but they couldn't try to save the brand by promoting "Tissue brand tissues".
Same is true for "App Store". Apple can't use the brand with a descriptor because the brand they're going for is a descriptor. If they try to save "App Store" from genericide the way Kleenex did, they'd have to say, "The App Store brand app store".
And that would be... wait for it... CONFUSING. Which is entirely what trademark law intends to prevent.
Searches for app are irrelevant to the discussion. A few searches for app store before Apple applied for trademark wouldn't be a trademark stopping problem either.
It's entirely relevant and not a few. It's about 3 million searches month on Google alone regarding Android, and more for WP7, RIM, Nokia, Palm, etc... That's an indication that a huge number of people consider an app store to be an app store.
Quote:
As for 4 and 5 since they occurred mostly after and by your admission are mostly for Apple products should help Apple get the trademark.
Point 4 and 5 show that significant results are found where Apple nor any other Apple product has anything to do with the result. This means both people are searching for app store as app store generically, and that people are finding results where app store is generically used.
It's not a popularity contest. It doesn't matter that Apple sells the most apps in its app store, what matters is that when people say app store, or search for an app store, a significant amount don't mean Apple's App Store.
Quote:
Android has Android Market but unfortunately people always remember the most popular things when searching and may not get relevant results but they will get more descriptive as needed to find what they want, like searching for Android applications.
Bingo. People will remember the most popular term...app store. If I'm searching for a Prius, but don't recall the name, I might search for Toyota or Car. I wouldn't search for BMW if I new the car I was looking for was a Toyota. Now, if Toyota had trademarked the name Car, it's confusing because BMW, Ford, Chrysler, GM, and others all sell cars.
And as 3 million searches indicate each month, people are looking for an app store for the Android, because app store, in their minds, is the description of what they're looking for.
Anyone want to place a bet on whether App Store goes through as a trademark for Apple without any settlement on lawsuits or oppositions?
Does the way you see it have anything to do with Microsoft attempting to use it? Just asking.
Last time I checked (15 seconds ago) I was not a power within the Microsoft - in fact, I was not working for Microsoft at all - so I'm lucky guessing it has nothing to do with MS attempting to use it. As usual, I'm just stating my personal opinion.
Quote:
It seems to me that you could make an OS named, Niko's Windowing System,
... and likely get zillion calls from home owners asking for dual-glazing windows quotes...
Quote:
or somesuch. You could not use Windows as the name.... or I'd put it on the market and duck, because you'd be hit by an infringement suit. When you say something like, "Open the window and choose the file" in directions for Linux, or MacOS, or whatever, that's the "descriptive" term of which you speak. The capital in "Windows" means it's a brand identifier.
So basically we would end up with App Store, Windows app store, Google app store (2nd and 3rd not being capitalized). What happens in case when, for any reason, all letters get capitalized (BIG SAVINGS IN OUR APP STORE ONLY THIS MONTH!!!)?
Comments
BS! We used the term app commonly in the software industry long before Apple "invented" it. However it was generally use in a two word description like "native apps," "web apps," and "portable apps." Apple did coin the term "app store" though. Prior to them doing so no one ever thought of an "app store" per se. Even Handango which is arguably one of the first mobile application stores years before Apple "invented" the app store didn't call themselves an app store.
So I agree Apple should be able to TM "App store" because I can't think of anyone else ever using it before them. Not successfully.
I believe Apple has been calling their programs "applications" for a long time. But in any case I agree with you since there are other generic term trademarks allowed, for example:
Container Store
Tractor Supply
Software Etc.
Radio Shack
I'm sure there are tons of them out there.
This is only one of the many places where you lose your argument. app and store were both generic terms UNTIL Apple put them together. Nobody was searching for app store anything until Apple opened one, named it and applied for trademark protection.
1) It doesn't matter. It's generic now. It's a victim of genericide.
2) Google does show use of "App Store" prior to Apple's filing. Apple's own use of it goes back to 1998 when they registered the domain appstore.com. The term "App" was used at least as early as the early '80s. The first use I could find was in the term Killer App to describe VisiCalc (1979). Store has of course always been used. A store that sells apps is going to descriptively be called an app store. Just like a store that sells groceries is going to be descriptively called a grocery store. Try trademarking Grocery Store.
3) Searches for "App" and even "App Store" show up in Google's logs before the filing of the trademark.
4) Significant results are found when searching for "App Store" where you can subtract apple, itunes, iPhone, iPad, iPod, etc...
5) Significant results are found when searching for "Android App Store" as well as others.
Bottom line is that this is about confusion in the market. A significant amount of people associate an app store with being a place where apps are sold than associate the App Store with the Apple brand. Specifically, more people search for app store associating with other brands than any other name or descriptive term. In other words, trademarking App Store would create more confusion as people don't know what else to search for or call it.
I believe Apple has been calling their programs "applications" for a long time. But in any case I agree with you since there are other generic term trademarks allowed, for example:
Container Store
Tractor Supply
Software Etc.
Radio Shack
I'm sure there are tons of them out there.
The term "app" goes back to at least the early '80s. The earliest use I saw was "killer app" used for VisiCalc, but other companies used "app" a long time ago. In 1998 Apple registered the domain appstore.com.
Your examples are off. Those stores are distinctive. Without a Radio Shack brand, did anyone ever think to go to a radio shack in terms of describing an electronics store?
A better example would be TV Store or Electronics Store.
An important point here is that you can file for a trademark for just about anything. You can claim a trademark simply by using adding the TM mark...Example? However, the Registered mark means that it has to go through the whole process. Often marks go through and become registered because there was simply no opposition or obvious issue. Even then, they can become challenged.
So again in your examples, it's not so much that they absolutely qualified, it's that they went through without opposition or any other obvious issue. If there were stores that sold containers and were referencing themselves as container stores, they'd be able to file in opposition, or even challenge the registration (not that they have to, but they could).
In this case of App Store, there is opposition during the process.
1) It doesn't matter. It's generic now. It's a victim of genericide.
2) Google does show use of "App Store" prior to Apple's filing. Apple's own use of it goes back to 1998 when they registered the domain appstore.com. The term "App" was used at least as early as the early '80s. The first use I could find was in the term Killer App to describe VisiCalc (1979). Store has of course always been used. A store that sells apps is going to descriptively be called an app store. Just like a store that sells groceries is going to be descriptively called a grocery store. Try trademarking Grocery Store.
3) Searches for "App" and even "App Store" show up in Google's logs before the filing of the trademark.
4) Significant results are found when searching for "App Store" where you can subtract apple, itunes, iPhone, iPad, iPod, etc...
5) Significant results are found when searching for "Android App Store" as well as others.
Bottom line is that this is about confusion in the market. A significant amount of people associate an app store with being a place where apps are sold than associate the App Store with the Apple brand. Specifically, more people search for app store associating with other brands than any other name or descriptive term. In other words, trademarking App Store would create more confusion as people don't know what else to search for or call it.
Genericide may happen for extremely popular products but does not override the trademark see KLEENEX.
Searches for app are irrelevant to the discussion. A few searches for app store before Apple applied for trademark wouldn't be a trademark stopping problem either.
As for 4 and 5 since they occurred mostly after and by your admission are mostly for Apple products should help Apple get the trademark. Android has Android Market but unfortunately people always remember the most popular things when searching and may not get relevant results but they will get more descriptive as needed to find what they want, like searching for Android applications.
Genericide may happen for extremely popular products but does not override the trademark see KLEENEX.
Right, and what did Kleenex have to do?
They almost lost the trademark due to genericide, and had to use the brand along with a descriptor. Thus it became "Kleenex brand tissues". This worked because Kleenex itself wasn't descriptive. Had Kleenex tried to trademark "tissues", they wouldn't have been able to of course, but they couldn't try to save the brand by promoting "Tissue brand tissues".
Same is true for "App Store". Apple can't use the brand with a descriptor because the brand they're going for is a descriptor. If they try to save "App Store" from genericide the way Kleenex did, they'd have to say, "The App Store brand app store".
And that would be... wait for it... CONFUSING. Which is entirely what trademark law intends to prevent.
Genericide may happen for extremely popular products but does not override the trademark see KLEENEX.
Oh, and here are some words that lost their trademark specifically due to genericide:
Catseye, Cellophane, Dry ice, Escalator, Freeware, Heroin, Hoover, Kerosene, Lanolin, Laundromat, Linoleum, Mimeograph, Netbook, Petrol, Pilates, Primal Therapy, Thermos, Touch-tone, Trampoline, Videotape, Webster's Dictionary, Yo-Yo, ZIP code, Zipper
Aspirin could also be added to that list, but there were other issues regarding WWI and WWII.
Other brands had to take action, like the example I mentioned in my last post regarding Kleenex.
Sorry, but if you don't protect your trademark, and it becomes generic, you lose it.
Searches for app are irrelevant to the discussion. A few searches for app store before Apple applied for trademark wouldn't be a trademark stopping problem either.
It's entirely relevant and not a few. It's about 3 million searches month on Google alone regarding Android, and more for WP7, RIM, Nokia, Palm, etc... That's an indication that a huge number of people consider an app store to be an app store.
As for 4 and 5 since they occurred mostly after and by your admission are mostly for Apple products should help Apple get the trademark.
Point 4 and 5 show that significant results are found where Apple nor any other Apple product has anything to do with the result. This means both people are searching for app store as app store generically, and that people are finding results where app store is generically used.
It's not a popularity contest. It doesn't matter that Apple sells the most apps in its app store, what matters is that when people say app store, or search for an app store, a significant amount don't mean Apple's App Store.
Android has Android Market but unfortunately people always remember the most popular things when searching and may not get relevant results but they will get more descriptive as needed to find what they want, like searching for Android applications.
Bingo. People will remember the most popular term...app store. If I'm searching for a Prius, but don't recall the name, I might search for Toyota or Car. I wouldn't search for BMW if I new the car I was looking for was a Toyota. Now, if Toyota had trademarked the name Car, it's confusing because BMW, Ford, Chrysler, GM, and others all sell cars.
And as 3 million searches indicate each month, people are looking for an app store for the Android, because app store, in their minds, is the description of what they're looking for.
Anyone want to place a bet on whether App Store goes through as a trademark for Apple without any settlement on lawsuits or oppositions?
Does the way you see it have anything to do with Microsoft attempting to use it? Just asking.
Last time I checked (15 seconds ago) I was not a power within the Microsoft - in fact, I was not working for Microsoft at all - so I'm lucky guessing it has nothing to do with MS attempting to use it. As usual, I'm just stating my personal opinion.
It seems to me that you could make an OS named, Niko's Windowing System,
... and likely get zillion calls from home owners asking for dual-glazing windows quotes...
or somesuch. You could not use Windows as the name.... or I'd put it on the market and duck, because you'd be hit by an infringement suit. When you say something like, "Open the window and choose the file" in directions for Linux, or MacOS, or whatever, that's the "descriptive" term of which you speak. The capital in "Windows" means it's a brand identifier.
So basically we would end up with App Store, Windows app store, Google app store (2nd and 3rd not being capitalized). What happens in case when, for any reason, all letters get capitalized (BIG SAVINGS IN OUR APP STORE ONLY THIS MONTH!!!)?
So I could create and sell an OS called "______ Windows" as long as I didn't fill in the blank with Microsoft? I kind of doubt that.
Indeed. They did have that spat with "Lindows".