And Apple quickly learned that that was not a very good way to to do it and that it's preferable to have applications run on the device without requiring web access.
More BS. You really think they never conceived of, werent developing the SDK, nor working on the logistics of their App Store policies and practices prior to the release of the iPhone?
But any smart enterprise manager is not going to turn all of his data over to Google. So the target market is cheap, uninformed IT managers of large corporations who don't care about data privacy.
It is not like they will turn over anything crucial. The corporate accounting and confidential communications are not leaving the security of the in-house data centers. These ChromeBooks are for the cubicle drones writing press releases and office holiday schedules. They are safer than Windows machines and capable of doing those menial tasks that only require minimal applications. Sure Google is data mining but that is assuming these mid-level users have something worthwhile to mine. Furthermore with today's super paranoid Google watchers, they can't get away with any monkey business anyway.
It is not like they will turn over anything crucial. The corporate accounting and confidential communications are not leaving the security of the in-house data centers. These ChromeBooks are for the cubicle drones writing press releases and office holiday schedules. They are safer than Windows machines and capable of doing those menial tasks that only require minimal applications. Sure Google is data mining but that is assuming these mid-level users have something worthwhile to mine. Furthermore with today's super paranoid Google watchers, they can't get away with any monkey business anyway.
Today I drove someone to the local job center. They had about 25 PCs for use.
The one I looked it was from 2007. It's retail price then looks to be about $800. Kind of pricey for a very slow machine that only uses the web browser to do all tasks. It's using a lot of power, too. That'll add up. I wonder how much those Chromeboxes will start at?
*sigh* These can't be serious questions. Hat do you do when you don't have enough internal space on any computer and it's too big to store on the net? You attach a USB connected drive. Don't even try to play that you had no idea it had USB ports or access to external drives.
I have multiple external USB drives. The only one I use is the Time Machine one. It's just not a good user experience to carry a USB drive around. We'd be carrying a USB around all the time with machines with such small drives.
The easier answer would simply be to get a larger internal drive. But that kind of defeats the purpose and encourages "not Cloud" type of working environment.
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You guys are really scrapping the barrel now with reasons to hate a product that hasn't launched despite being no threat to Apple and a big threat to chipping away at Windows low end.
Who cares about Apple. You certainly are excited about this for various reasons. It's obvious some aren't for various reasons. For the most part, both for and against reasons are legitimate.
Many of the same things a lot of people do with iPads now (which come with 8 GB of storage and a higher price tag), just with a more traditional laptop form factor.
Ironically, this gives a lot of credit to Steve Job's original vision of the iPhone. All apps on the web accessed through a browser.
iPads have never come in 8 GB storage options. It's 16 GB and up.
No one knows for sure outside of Apple's inner circle what the "original vision" for the iPhone was. It doesn't really apply since the iPhone isn't a cloud computer. It's computer with local storage running tons of native apps with a good web browser, basically like every computer today.
Look, it's fine for what it appears to be. A netbook class computer that primarily serves people whose usage model is web surfing. But, it's still up to debate on whether "cloud" can take over as the dominant computing model.
I have multiple external USB drives. The only one I use is the Time Machine one. It's just not a good user experience to carry a USB drive around. We'd be carrying a USB around all the time with machines with such small drives.
This is just nonsense. You complained about the size of the boot drives in these very specific machines and the limitations of data capacity and speed with the web. I pointed out that you can have SD cards, USB sticks, HDDs, etc connected to read and write whatever data you want. IOW, this is not some dumb terminal thin client that can’t do jack unless it’s on the network. Why is that concept so fucking hard?
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The easier answer would simply be to get a larger internal drive. But that kind of defeats the purpose and encourages "not Cloud" type of working environment.
That’s an option. Google is requesting their partners use an SSD for the boot drive for many very obvious reasons, but there is no reason why you can’t have a larger SSD or even an internal HDD in a Chrome-based system. You guys are just finding silly excuses as to why this type of machine has no utility for no one no where in the world despite that utility being clearly pointed out.
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Who cares about Apple. You certainly are excited about this for various reasons. It's obvious some aren't for various reasons. For the most part, both for and against reasons are legitimate.
Considering the number of comments comparing it to an iPad and Macs apparently plenty of people are scared about what this means to Apple. It really means nothing to them. It has no direct competition with anything they sell. It does however go after MS lower-end which makes up the majority of their OEM sales. There are a lot more than 2 HW vendors tied to this project. If Acer and Samsung are even remotely successful expect to see some additional competition on this.
As I, Jetz and others have stated there is no guarantee this will work. There are a lot of factors and we still need to see how well Google has been with making their code local, making it feel fast the way IOS feels fast on ARM, and with their partners HW and driver creation. Even then the price points and marketing have to work. This is a new system category just like the iPad was despite 3 decades of tablet on the market. If Google did their due diligence then I see this thing a noticeable bite out of Windows OS unless they also come up with an OS based on IE that runs on a fraction of the resources that Windows does.
It doesn't really apply since the iPhone isn't a cloud computer. It's computer with local storage running tons of native apps with a good web browser, basically like every computer today.
So first one argues that Chrome OS is a cloud OS because it connects to the cloud but iOS isn?t a cloud OS despite it also connecting to the cloud. What part of working network free is not getting through? Remember GoogleGears? Remember what it did? Remember why Google dropped it when HTML5 was given localize storage options?
Do you also claim that WebOS is a cloud computer because it, too runs app that are built on WebKit just like Chrome OS. I think you guys are getting hung up on paranoia again Google and some odd idea that WebKit means you actually have to use the ?kit? on the ?web?.
Just as I said. It's a crapbook that's more expensive than a netbook that does a LOT more.
And more expensive than a MUCH more powerful desktop that would be more appropriate for the majority of educational or enterprise applications.
So you're advocating replacing them with an even MORE underpowered thing? And one that costs more?
I am advocating replacing them with almost disposable hardware (that costs less over 3 years than a properly supported Windows machine) using an OS that provides superior cloud-based performance. Most businesses and schools will take the Samsung desktop or similar which is basically a bumped up ATV2 type thing. Hardware will be under $200 and less likely to break than a laptop.
Netbooks with Windows do nothing well - we have spent the last year+ crowing that in support of the iPad. Can't go changing our tune now that someone else has found a different way to undermine them. As we all know, they are underpowered, have terrible keyboards and screen unless you buy one of the more expensive ones. The same CPU with better screen and keyboard under Chrome will be infinitely better than a netbook for the limited set of tasks envisaged in genera business and education use.
Remember - it is horses for courses. The netbook is a nag unfit for any race, the Chromebook/desktop will do well at it's intended distance/race/use.
So first one argues that Chrome OS is a cloud OS because it connects to the cloud but iOS isn?t a cloud OS despite it also connecting to the cloud. What part of working network free is not getting through? Remember GoogleGears? Remember what it did? Remember why Google dropped it when HTML5 was given localize storage options?
The part where we left the data in the cloud with no way to access it when networking is off.
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Do you also claim that WebOS is a cloud computer because it, too runs app that are built on WebKit just like Chrome OS. I think you guys are getting hung up on paranoia again Google and some odd idea that WebKit means you actually have to use the ?kit? on the ?web?.
Don't really care how a WebOS device is categorized. I'm just as skeptical that they can make a dent in the "education" and "enterprise" businesses as Google can. Probably even moreso since they don't have Google's money machine to leverage off of.
It is not like they will turn over anything crucial. The corporate accounting and confidential communications are not leaving the security of the in-house data centers. These ChromeBooks are for the cubicle drones writing press releases and office holiday schedules. They are safer than Windows machines and capable of doing those menial tasks that only require minimal applications. Sure Google is data mining but that is assuming these mid-level users have something worthwhile to mine. Furthermore with today's super paranoid Google watchers, they can't get away with any monkey business anyway.
For businesses and education they are charging for the app suite and such which IIRC is not part of the personalized data mining. Companies wouldn't sign up for it, Google isn't foolish enough to make them. They are paying for their part of a private cloud, just like all good enterprise hosting firms do. We run a massive multi-terabyte, constantly growing platform with the software vendor who in turn uses Amazon S3 to host, I believe. It passed our very stringent security screens (certified for confidential commercial and government content) and fully integrated to our industrial grade SSO.
The part where we left the data in the cloud with no way to access it when networking is off.
Don't really care how a WebOS device is categorized. I'm just as skeptical that they can make a dent in the "education" and "enterprise" businesses as Google can. Probably even moreso since they don't have Google's money machine to leverage off of.
The machines and the OS have local storage - you can set all your office files to copy locally if needed. And how often do the corporate or education networks fail at all let alone for a prolonged or meaningful time. Almost never.
WebOS is HP - HP has tons of money and more corporate relationships than any other IT company. If HP is smart this is what they are trying to do so they can sell cheap hardware and profitable service contracts (which is what Google is trying to do). Whoever does it, it seems like the idea has legs.
The part where we left the data in the cloud with no way to access it when networking is off.
I have no idea what that means. If you left your data in the cloud and have no way to access it that’s your fault, but people that want their data local will have their data local just they do now on Windows, Mac OS, Android, iOS and WebOS.
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Don't really care how a WebOS device is categorized. I'm just as skeptical that they can make a dent in the "education" and "enterprise" businesses as Google can. Probably even moreso since they don't have Google's money machine to leverage off of.
Again, I have no idea what you’re talking about. Categorized? All of a sudden it’s not that an OS with WebKit for the UI is flawed, it’s that it’s only flawed if we’re talking about some sales in education or enterprise? It’s either a viable concept for an OS or its not.
I don’t recall any of these comments about WebOS not being able to work when you didn’t have an internet connection. “But how can you use the phone dialer on EDGE to make a call if you can’t be on the carrier’s voice and data network at the same time?”, “How can you use the built-in calculator if you aren’t getting any service on your phone?”, “How can I play my games, listen to music and watch videos on my Palm Pre when I’m in Airplane Mode?” I don’t recall any such questions about how a WebKit based UI can have offline access to data. Palm made a lot of mistakes, but WebOS was not one of them.
PS: @ Dick Applebaum, One of the hurdles for this project was getting the file association to launch the right web app as the app catalog grows. For instance, if you have a .DOC file that you click on from local or attached storage it will now default to Google docs. But what if you want Office Live, iWork.com or some other web-based editor (locally of course) to open the file? You need a way to tell the system differently. This isn’t as hard to do on an OS, but within a browser this gets a little tricker.
This is just nonsense. You complained about the size of the boot drives in these very specific machines and the limitations of data capacity and speed with the web. I pointed out that you can have SD cards, USB sticks, HDDs, etc connected to read and write whatever data you want. IOW, this is not some dumb terminal thin client that can?t do jack unless it?s on the network. Why is that concept so fucking hard?
That?s an option. Google is requesting their partners use an SSD for the boot drive for many very obvious reasons, but there is no reason why you can?t have a larger SSD or even an internal HDD in a Chrome-based system. You guys are just finding silly excuses as to why this type of machine has no utility for no one no where in the world despite that utility being clearly pointed out.
Considering the number of comments comparing it to an iPad and Macs apparently plenty of people are scared about what this means to Apple. It really means nothing to them. It has no direct competition with anything they sell. It does however go after MS lower-end which makes up the majority of their OEM sales. There are a lot more than 2 HW vendors tied to this project. If Acer and Samsung are even remotely successful expect to see some additional competition on this.
As I, Jetz and others have stated there is no guarantee this will work. There are a lot of factors and we still need to see how well Google has been with making their code local, making it feel fast the way IOS feels fast on ARM, and with their partners HW and driver creation. Even then the price points and marketing have to work. This is a new system category just like the iPad was despite 3 decades of tablet on the market. If Google did their due diligence then I see this thing a noticeable bite out of Windows OS unless they also come up with an OS based on IE that runs on a fraction of the resources that Windows does.
The more I comment in other forums using Disqus and Intense Debate amongst others, the more I disklike the 2003-style forum here in terms of functionality. I would like to LIKE or +1 this comment and many others by old Sol but I can't. If I want to demonstrate support I have a write a stupid comment (like this). It's not that I want to give Sol a big head (after all other people don't exist anyway ;-) but I think it would be interesting by a count of +1s, where the quantitative rather than just qualitative center of this debate lies. If Sol is getting +50 and Dick or JRag re getting +5 it would interesting, similarly if it were the other way around. As it is, only the most passionate or otherwise unengaged people comment and it is hard to get a feel for the real mood. (minor) RANT OFF
The Acer and Samsung Chromebooks have 16 GB SSDs. After the disk format, OS install, you'll have what, 13 GB? We haven't lived with 16 GB drives in laptops in what 8 years?
Yeah, I think a lot of people's data will reside in the cloud with such limited hard drive space. So, what would one do with it in such a scenario?
Not replacing your iMac and 14TBs of HD video of your kid's ballet recitals. I have TBs of stuff at home but my work PC only does email, web surfing, MS Office, chat and PDF. I have about 6GB of collected content over my career most of which I will never need again. My job is very PC heavy (not building anything but spreadsheets, presentations and white papers, etc.) and I am on it all day, everyday but I just don't need even a 16GB drive except that the OS, Apps and BS IT overhead crap would take all that and more under Windows. Chrome OS - problem solved. My problem would be mostly around PPT and some moderate Excel analysis features and if I could do them in GDocs. Storage would not be the issue. Having all that crap in the cloud might actually get me to find stuff more.
I have multiple external USB drives. The only one I use is the Time Machine one. It's just not a good user experience to carry a USB drive around. We'd be carrying a USB around all the time with machines with such small drives.
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Originally Posted by solipsism
This is just nonsense. You complained about the size of the boot drives in these very specific machines and the limitations of data capacity and speed with the web. I pointed out that you can have SD cards, USB sticks, HDDs, etc connected to read and write whatever data you want. IOW, this is not some dumb terminal thin client that can’t do jack unless it’s on the network. Why is that concept so fucking hard?
Sol,
Having an SD card slot and/or USB ports for USB Drives on a device is good for introducing content to the device and saving content from the device. It is an excellent way of mitigating the limited storage of these devices.
But, what you seem to be suggesting is some sort of sneaker net.
That could be somewhat useful in moving content among devices when offline.
But, if you think about it, SD cards or USB Drives are not a good alternative for when the network is unavailable.
Why? Because you would have had to anticipate the unavailability, in advance, and download and save necessary files to the external media.
Then there is the whole problem of versioning files that were modified while offline -- especially if multiple people are collaborating on the same files,
To have a "fool proof" system, each user, while online, would have to periodically save any file modifications to local storage.
Unless the ChromeOS has some very sophisticated file change management software (like TimeMachine) this would quickly become an operational nightmare -- where you spend more time anticipating and compensating for the unavailability of the network -- than accomplishing productive work.
... And you just know, that the one time you are in a hurry to meet a deadline and don't save a local copy of that critical file...
After a few network failures, where you scurry around, locate the card or drive then the needed file, read it in to the ChromeBook make some modifications (being sure to save the changes)...
Whoops! The network is back up again. How do we get back to where we were -- the network files all updated, and saved to the local media...
Thank goodness we anticipated...
...Damn, the network's down again...
A few iterations of this and it's time to retire to the local Pub and reevaluate your offline operational strategy *
And, unless you have some sort of TimeMachine on the local network of ChromeBooks -- it really is impractical to do any work when the cloud or global network is unavailable.
If you do have a local TimeMachine, you are beginning to defeat the concept, increase costs, local support requirements and complexity.
I'm afraid it's pretty much "You're tethered -- or you're neutered."
I have to agree with Shrike on this!
* and don't think for a moment that some industrious users won't discover the connection between "network down" and "let's take a break".
Not replacing your iMac and 14TBs of HD video of your kid's ballet recitals. I have TBs of stuff at home but my work PC only does email, web surfing, MS Office, chat and PDF. I have about 6GB of collected content over my career most of which I will never need again. My job is very PC heavy (not building anything but spreadsheets, presentations and white papers, etc.) and I am on it all day, everyday but I just don't need even a 16GB drive except that the OS, Apps and BS IT overhead crap would take all that and more under Windows. Chrome OS - problem solved. My problem would be mostly around PPT and some moderate Excel analysis features and if I could do them in GDocs. Storage would not be the issue. Having all that crap in the cloud might actually get me to find stuff more.
I work in an MS Office and Exchange corporate environment. My email archive is hundreds of GBs. We basically email multi-MB PDF, Powerpoint and Excel files multiple times everyday. Just Joe Regular Engineer here. I'd love it if it was all in a server somewhere, but I truly doubt that it would be cheaper solution. But never mind the anecdotes.
Where is it that ChromeOS is going to beat MS Windows? Why is it better? Why would it be cheaper? What's the advantage?
The machines and the OS have local storage - you can set all your office files to copy locally if needed. And how often do the corporate or education networks fail at all let alone for a prolonged or meaningful time. Almost never.
It has 16 GB of local storage. In my travels, and in my home, I can get network access through wireless cards or WiFi, but it's obviously not the same performance as the local network. In fact, most of the time, it simply doesn't work. Having everything local is just easier, better, faster.
My wife has not problem with the remote computing thing and working through the server, but I can imagine her doing her work through a small laptop form factor. It needs to be 14" to 15".
Having a virtual drive with a local copy is the right way to go. I'd love it. But this sort of thing will inevitably be more expensive to do. Amazon charges $1/GB of storage. It seems people are expecting a free lunch here.
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WebOS is HP - HP has tons of money and more corporate relationships than any other IT company. If HP is smart this is what they are trying to do so they can sell cheap hardware and profitable service contracts (which is what Google is trying to do). Whoever does it, it seems like the idea has legs.
Well certainly. Making more money should be their game. It's ok for me to think that HP does not have the same capability to create, change markets as Google does. Because, since when has HP done that?
Having an SD card slot and/or USB ports for USB Drives on a device is good for introducing content to the device and saving content from the device. It is an excellent way of mitigating the limited storage of these devices.
But, what you seem to be suggesting is some sort of sneaker net.
That could be somewhat useful in moving content among devices when offline.
*sigh* You know this is getting tiring, Dick. This is no different from using an SD card or USB drive on any machine. You are still not understanding that these machines have INTERNAL STORAGE for their apps and files just like on an iPad except you get USB and SD ports Don’t say that your 60GB of raw soccer coverage won’t fit and that you can’t process it on these machines. You’re not suppose to, but you’re not suppose to on an iPad either and good luck doing it on a $400 notebook. You have a powerful iMac for that.
No, I’m not talking about a sneakernet, I was replying to a comment that implied that if your file size exceeds what is in the system then you have to push it to the cloud or you can’t use it or save it.
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But, if you think about it, SD cards or USB Drives are not a good alternative for when the network is unavailable.
Why? Because you would have had to anticipate the unavailability, in advance, and download and save necessary files to the external media.
So why is external data okay for Macs but not for chrome books? Why has this all of a sudden become an issue for you? I have an 80GB SSD for my boot drive and a 500GB @7200RPM HDD for my Home folder. Those are internal. I also have a 3.5” 1TB HDD for my Time MAchine drive and a 2.5” 250GB HDD that holds a backup versions of Mac OS and additional video and audio I might want to watch/listen at some point.
The same dynamics are in effect for this type of machine with the difference being THIS IS NOT A REPLACEMENT FOR A TRADITIONAL PC FOR THE TRADITIONAL USER!!!
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Then there is the whole problem of versioning files that were modified while offline -- especially if multiple people are collaborating on the same files,
WTF?! How is this different than another offline modification of the same file? The way that is handled is by the backend where the file primary file is held. Dropbox does this nicely letting you go back and see changes and only uploading/downloading changes it has made.
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To have a "fool proof" system, each user, while online, would have to periodically save any file modifications to local storage.
THESE AREN’T DUMB TERMINAL THIN CLIENTS. THEY HAVE INTERNAL STORAGE!
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After a few network failures, where you scurry around, locate the card or drive then the needed file, read it in to the ChromeBook make some modifications (being sure to save the changes)...
Whoops! The network is back up again. How do we get back to where we were -- the network files all updated, and saved to the local media...
Thank goodness we anticipated...
...Damn, the network's down again...
A few iterations of this and it's time to retire to the local Pub and reevaluate your offline operational strategy *
And, unless you have some sort of TimeMachine on the local network of ChromeBooks -- it really is impractical to do any work when the cloud or global network is un available.
If you do have a local TimeMachine, you are beginning to defeat the concept, increase costs, local support requirements and complexity.
I'm afraid it's pretty much "You're tethered -- or you're neutered."
You’re making up scenarios that don’t make any sense. If you have a bunch of MBPs all connecting to one file on a server and the network goes up and down you can still get the same situation you are talking about.
It’s a fucking OS, Dick. It does exactly what every other OS has ever done with the exception of eliminating the fat and building around the number one app that people use. WebKit and web code are now sophisticated enough to make this viable for certain tasks for certain people, including posting on this forum.
Hell, you can even use Citrix to get a remote VM of Windows or Solaris or Mac OS X Server right on your Chromebook. Of course, that does require a network connection but it’s no different than any other Citrix connection.
I have no idea what that means. If you left your data in the cloud and have no way to access it that?s your fault, but people that want their data local will have their data local just they do now on Windows, Mac OS, Android, iOS and WebOS.
So, what's the advantage? Why is it more beneficial? Is it cheaper?
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Again, I have no idea what you?re talking about. Categorized? All of a sudden it?s not that an OS with WebKit for the UI is flawed, it?s that it?s only flawed if we?re talking about some sales in education or enterprise? It?s either a viable concept for an OS or its not.
I don't know. The conversion spiraled out of sense when Jetz made the analogy that ChromeOS devices is like an iPad or iPhone and they are like cloud computers. Then it went to what it means to be a cloud computer.
I don't think you can really make that analogy. Not just yet.
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I don?t recall any of these comments about WebOS not being able to work when you didn?t have an internet connection. ?But how can you use the phone dialer on EDGE to make a call if you can?t be on the carrier?s voice and data network at the same time??, ?How can you use the built-in calculator if you aren?t getting any service on your phone??, ?How can I play my games, listen to music and watch videos on my Palm Pre when I?m in Airplane Mode?? I don?t recall any such questions about how a WebKit based UI can have offline access to data. Palm made a lot of mistakes, but WebOS was not one of them.
I have no idea why you or others have veered into webOS. Currently, webOS isn't trying to do what ChromeOS is attempting to do.
Comments
And Apple quickly learned that that was not a very good way to to do it and that it's preferable to have applications run on the device without requiring web access.
More BS. You really think they never conceived of, werent developing the SDK, nor working on the logistics of their App Store policies and practices prior to the release of the iPhone?
But any smart enterprise manager is not going to turn all of his data over to Google. So the target market is cheap, uninformed IT managers of large corporations who don't care about data privacy.
It is not like they will turn over anything crucial. The corporate accounting and confidential communications are not leaving the security of the in-house data centers. These ChromeBooks are for the cubicle drones writing press releases and office holiday schedules. They are safer than Windows machines and capable of doing those menial tasks that only require minimal applications. Sure Google is data mining but that is assuming these mid-level users have something worthwhile to mine. Furthermore with today's super paranoid Google watchers, they can't get away with any monkey business anyway.
It is not like they will turn over anything crucial. The corporate accounting and confidential communications are not leaving the security of the in-house data centers. These ChromeBooks are for the cubicle drones writing press releases and office holiday schedules. They are safer than Windows machines and capable of doing those menial tasks that only require minimal applications. Sure Google is data mining but that is assuming these mid-level users have something worthwhile to mine. Furthermore with today's super paranoid Google watchers, they can't get away with any monkey business anyway.
Today I drove someone to the local job center. They had about 25 PCs for use.
The one I looked it was from 2007. It's retail price then looks to be about $800. Kind of pricey for a very slow machine that only uses the web browser to do all tasks. It's using a lot of power, too. That'll add up. I wonder how much those Chromeboxes will start at?
*sigh* These can't be serious questions. Hat do you do when you don't have enough internal space on any computer and it's too big to store on the net? You attach a USB connected drive. Don't even try to play that you had no idea it had USB ports or access to external drives.
I have multiple external USB drives. The only one I use is the Time Machine one. It's just not a good user experience to carry a USB drive around. We'd be carrying a USB around all the time with machines with such small drives.
The easier answer would simply be to get a larger internal drive. But that kind of defeats the purpose and encourages "not Cloud" type of working environment.
You guys are really scrapping the barrel now with reasons to hate a product that hasn't launched despite being no threat to Apple and a big threat to chipping away at Windows low end.
Who cares about Apple. You certainly are excited about this for various reasons. It's obvious some aren't for various reasons. For the most part, both for and against reasons are legitimate.
Many of the same things a lot of people do with iPads now (which come with 8 GB of storage and a higher price tag), just with a more traditional laptop form factor.
Ironically, this gives a lot of credit to Steve Job's original vision of the iPhone. All apps on the web accessed through a browser.
iPads have never come in 8 GB storage options. It's 16 GB and up.
No one knows for sure outside of Apple's inner circle what the "original vision" for the iPhone was. It doesn't really apply since the iPhone isn't a cloud computer. It's computer with local storage running tons of native apps with a good web browser, basically like every computer today.
Look, it's fine for what it appears to be. A netbook class computer that primarily serves people whose usage model is web surfing. But, it's still up to debate on whether "cloud" can take over as the dominant computing model.
I have multiple external USB drives. The only one I use is the Time Machine one. It's just not a good user experience to carry a USB drive around. We'd be carrying a USB around all the time with machines with such small drives.
This is just nonsense. You complained about the size of the boot drives in these very specific machines and the limitations of data capacity and speed with the web. I pointed out that you can have SD cards, USB sticks, HDDs, etc connected to read and write whatever data you want. IOW, this is not some dumb terminal thin client that can’t do jack unless it’s on the network. Why is that concept so fucking hard?
The easier answer would simply be to get a larger internal drive. But that kind of defeats the purpose and encourages "not Cloud" type of working environment.
That’s an option. Google is requesting their partners use an SSD for the boot drive for many very obvious reasons, but there is no reason why you can’t have a larger SSD or even an internal HDD in a Chrome-based system. You guys are just finding silly excuses as to why this type of machine has no utility for no one no where in the world despite that utility being clearly pointed out.
Who cares about Apple. You certainly are excited about this for various reasons. It's obvious some aren't for various reasons. For the most part, both for and against reasons are legitimate.
Considering the number of comments comparing it to an iPad and Macs apparently plenty of people are scared about what this means to Apple. It really means nothing to them. It has no direct competition with anything they sell. It does however go after MS lower-end which makes up the majority of their OEM sales. There are a lot more than 2 HW vendors tied to this project. If Acer and Samsung are even remotely successful expect to see some additional competition on this.
As I, Jetz and others have stated there is no guarantee this will work. There are a lot of factors and we still need to see how well Google has been with making their code local, making it feel fast the way IOS feels fast on ARM, and with their partners HW and driver creation. Even then the price points and marketing have to work. This is a new system category just like the iPad was despite 3 decades of tablet on the market. If Google did their due diligence then I see this thing a noticeable bite out of Windows OS unless they also come up with an OS based on IE that runs on a fraction of the resources that Windows does.
It doesn't really apply since the iPhone isn't a cloud computer. It's computer with local storage running tons of native apps with a good web browser, basically like every computer today.
So first one argues that Chrome OS is a cloud OS because it connects to the cloud but iOS isn?t a cloud OS despite it also connecting to the cloud. What part of working network free is not getting through? Remember GoogleGears? Remember what it did? Remember why Google dropped it when HTML5 was given localize storage options?
Do you also claim that WebOS is a cloud computer because it, too runs app that are built on WebKit just like Chrome OS. I think you guys are getting hung up on paranoia again Google and some odd idea that WebKit means you actually have to use the ?kit? on the ?web?.
http://www.networkworld.com/slidesho...1-05-12#slide1
Just as I said. It's a crapbook that's more expensive than a netbook that does a LOT more.
And more expensive than a MUCH more powerful desktop that would be more appropriate for the majority of educational or enterprise applications.
So you're advocating replacing them with an even MORE underpowered thing? And one that costs more?
I am advocating replacing them with almost disposable hardware (that costs less over 3 years than a properly supported Windows machine) using an OS that provides superior cloud-based performance. Most businesses and schools will take the Samsung desktop or similar which is basically a bumped up ATV2 type thing. Hardware will be under $200 and less likely to break than a laptop.
Netbooks with Windows do nothing well - we have spent the last year+ crowing that in support of the iPad. Can't go changing our tune now that someone else has found a different way to undermine them. As we all know, they are underpowered, have terrible keyboards and screen unless you buy one of the more expensive ones. The same CPU with better screen and keyboard under Chrome will be infinitely better than a netbook for the limited set of tasks envisaged in genera business and education use.
Remember - it is horses for courses. The netbook is a nag unfit for any race, the Chromebook/desktop will do well at it's intended distance/race/use.
So first one argues that Chrome OS is a cloud OS because it connects to the cloud but iOS isn?t a cloud OS despite it also connecting to the cloud. What part of working network free is not getting through? Remember GoogleGears? Remember what it did? Remember why Google dropped it when HTML5 was given localize storage options?
The part where we left the data in the cloud with no way to access it when networking is off.
Do you also claim that WebOS is a cloud computer because it, too runs app that are built on WebKit just like Chrome OS. I think you guys are getting hung up on paranoia again Google and some odd idea that WebKit means you actually have to use the ?kit? on the ?web?.
Don't really care how a WebOS device is categorized. I'm just as skeptical that they can make a dent in the "education" and "enterprise" businesses as Google can. Probably even moreso since they don't have Google's money machine to leverage off of.
It is not like they will turn over anything crucial. The corporate accounting and confidential communications are not leaving the security of the in-house data centers. These ChromeBooks are for the cubicle drones writing press releases and office holiday schedules. They are safer than Windows machines and capable of doing those menial tasks that only require minimal applications. Sure Google is data mining but that is assuming these mid-level users have something worthwhile to mine. Furthermore with today's super paranoid Google watchers, they can't get away with any monkey business anyway.
For businesses and education they are charging for the app suite and such which IIRC is not part of the personalized data mining. Companies wouldn't sign up for it, Google isn't foolish enough to make them. They are paying for their part of a private cloud, just like all good enterprise hosting firms do. We run a massive multi-terabyte, constantly growing platform with the software vendor who in turn uses Amazon S3 to host, I believe. It passed our very stringent security screens (certified for confidential commercial and government content) and fully integrated to our industrial grade SSO.
The part where we left the data in the cloud with no way to access it when networking is off.
Don't really care how a WebOS device is categorized. I'm just as skeptical that they can make a dent in the "education" and "enterprise" businesses as Google can. Probably even moreso since they don't have Google's money machine to leverage off of.
The machines and the OS have local storage - you can set all your office files to copy locally if needed. And how often do the corporate or education networks fail at all let alone for a prolonged or meaningful time. Almost never.
WebOS is HP - HP has tons of money and more corporate relationships than any other IT company. If HP is smart this is what they are trying to do so they can sell cheap hardware and profitable service contracts (which is what Google is trying to do). Whoever does it, it seems like the idea has legs.
The part where we left the data in the cloud with no way to access it when networking is off.
I have no idea what that means. If you left your data in the cloud and have no way to access it that’s your fault, but people that want their data local will have their data local just they do now on Windows, Mac OS, Android, iOS and WebOS.
Don't really care how a WebOS device is categorized. I'm just as skeptical that they can make a dent in the "education" and "enterprise" businesses as Google can. Probably even moreso since they don't have Google's money machine to leverage off of.
Again, I have no idea what you’re talking about. Categorized? All of a sudden it’s not that an OS with WebKit for the UI is flawed, it’s that it’s only flawed if we’re talking about some sales in education or enterprise?
I don’t recall any of these comments about WebOS not being able to work when you didn’t have an internet connection. “But how can you use the phone dialer on EDGE to make a call if you can’t be on the carrier’s voice and data network at the same time?”, “How can you use the built-in calculator if you aren’t getting any service on your phone?”, “How can I play my games, listen to music and watch videos on my Palm Pre when I’m in Airplane Mode?” I don’t recall any such questions about how a WebKit based UI can have offline access to data. Palm made a lot of mistakes, but WebOS was not one of them.
PS: @ Dick Applebaum, One of the hurdles for this project was getting the file association to launch the right web app as the app catalog grows. For instance, if you have a .DOC file that you click on from local or attached storage it will now default to Google docs. But what if you want Office Live, iWork.com or some other web-based editor (locally of course) to open the file? You need a way to tell the system differently. This isn’t as hard to do on an OS, but within a browser this gets a little tricker.
This is just nonsense. You complained about the size of the boot drives in these very specific machines and the limitations of data capacity and speed with the web. I pointed out that you can have SD cards, USB sticks, HDDs, etc connected to read and write whatever data you want. IOW, this is not some dumb terminal thin client that can?t do jack unless it?s on the network. Why is that concept so fucking hard?
That?s an option. Google is requesting their partners use an SSD for the boot drive for many very obvious reasons, but there is no reason why you can?t have a larger SSD or even an internal HDD in a Chrome-based system. You guys are just finding silly excuses as to why this type of machine has no utility for no one no where in the world despite that utility being clearly pointed out.
Considering the number of comments comparing it to an iPad and Macs apparently plenty of people are scared about what this means to Apple. It really means nothing to them. It has no direct competition with anything they sell. It does however go after MS lower-end which makes up the majority of their OEM sales. There are a lot more than 2 HW vendors tied to this project. If Acer and Samsung are even remotely successful expect to see some additional competition on this.
As I, Jetz and others have stated there is no guarantee this will work. There are a lot of factors and we still need to see how well Google has been with making their code local, making it feel fast the way IOS feels fast on ARM, and with their partners HW and driver creation. Even then the price points and marketing have to work. This is a new system category just like the iPad was despite 3 decades of tablet on the market. If Google did their due diligence then I see this thing a noticeable bite out of Windows OS unless they also come up with an OS based on IE that runs on a fraction of the resources that Windows does.
The more I comment in other forums using Disqus and Intense Debate amongst others, the more I disklike the 2003-style forum here in terms of functionality. I would like to LIKE or +1 this comment and many others by old Sol but I can't. If I want to demonstrate support I have a write a stupid comment (like this). It's not that I want to give Sol a big head (after all other people don't exist anyway ;-) but I think it would be interesting by a count of +1s, where the quantitative rather than just qualitative center of this debate lies. If Sol is getting +50 and Dick or JRag re getting +5 it would interesting, similarly if it were the other way around. As it is, only the most passionate or otherwise unengaged people comment and it is hard to get a feel for the real mood. (minor) RANT OFF
The Acer and Samsung Chromebooks have 16 GB SSDs. After the disk format, OS install, you'll have what, 13 GB? We haven't lived with 16 GB drives in laptops in what 8 years?
Yeah, I think a lot of people's data will reside in the cloud with such limited hard drive space. So, what would one do with it in such a scenario?
Business, Education, Business, Education, Business, Education, Business, Education, Business, Education, AD INFINITUM...
Not replacing your iMac and 14TBs of HD video of your kid's ballet recitals. I have TBs of stuff at home but my work PC only does email, web surfing, MS Office, chat and PDF. I have about 6GB of collected content over my career most of which I will never need again. My job is very PC heavy (not building anything but spreadsheets, presentations and white papers, etc.) and I am on it all day, everyday but I just don't need even a 16GB drive except that the OS, Apps and BS IT overhead crap would take all that and more under Windows. Chrome OS - problem solved. My problem would be mostly around PPT and some moderate Excel analysis features and if I could do them in GDocs. Storage would not be the issue. Having all that crap in the cloud might actually get me to find stuff more.
I have multiple external USB drives. The only one I use is the Time Machine one. It's just not a good user experience to carry a USB drive around. We'd be carrying a USB around all the time with machines with such small drives.
This is just nonsense. You complained about the size of the boot drives in these very specific machines and the limitations of data capacity and speed with the web. I pointed out that you can have SD cards, USB sticks, HDDs, etc connected to read and write whatever data you want. IOW, this is not some dumb terminal thin client that can’t do jack unless it’s on the network. Why is that concept so fucking hard?
Sol,
Having an SD card slot and/or USB ports for USB Drives on a device is good for introducing content to the device and saving content from the device. It is an excellent way of mitigating the limited storage of these devices.
But, what you seem to be suggesting is some sort of sneaker net.
That could be somewhat useful in moving content among devices when offline.
But, if you think about it, SD cards or USB Drives are not a good alternative for when the network is unavailable.
Why? Because you would have had to anticipate the unavailability, in advance, and download and save necessary files to the external media.
Then there is the whole problem of versioning files that were modified while offline -- especially if multiple people are collaborating on the same files,
To have a "fool proof" system, each user, while online, would have to periodically save any file modifications to local storage.
Unless the ChromeOS has some very sophisticated file change management software (like TimeMachine) this would quickly become an operational nightmare -- where you spend more time anticipating and compensating for the unavailability of the network -- than accomplishing productive work.
... And you just know, that the one time you are in a hurry to meet a deadline and don't save a local copy of that critical file...
After a few network failures, where you scurry around, locate the card or drive then the needed file, read it in to the ChromeBook make some modifications (being sure to save the changes)...
Whoops! The network is back up again. How do we get back to where we were -- the network files all updated, and saved to the local media...
Thank goodness we anticipated...
...Damn, the network's down again...
A few iterations of this and it's time to retire to the local Pub and reevaluate your offline operational strategy *
And, unless you have some sort of TimeMachine on the local network of ChromeBooks -- it really is impractical to do any work when the cloud or global network is unavailable.
If you do have a local TimeMachine, you are beginning to defeat the concept, increase costs, local support requirements and complexity.
I'm afraid it's pretty much "You're tethered -- or you're neutered."
I have to agree with Shrike on this!
* and don't think for a moment that some industrious users won't discover the connection between "network down" and "let's take a break".
Business, Education, Business, Education, Business, Education, Business, Education, Business, Education, AD INFINITUM...
Not replacing your iMac and 14TBs of HD video of your kid's ballet recitals. I have TBs of stuff at home but my work PC only does email, web surfing, MS Office, chat and PDF. I have about 6GB of collected content over my career most of which I will never need again. My job is very PC heavy (not building anything but spreadsheets, presentations and white papers, etc.) and I am on it all day, everyday but I just don't need even a 16GB drive except that the OS, Apps and BS IT overhead crap would take all that and more under Windows. Chrome OS - problem solved. My problem would be mostly around PPT and some moderate Excel analysis features and if I could do them in GDocs. Storage would not be the issue. Having all that crap in the cloud might actually get me to find stuff more.
I work in an MS Office and Exchange corporate environment. My email archive is hundreds of GBs. We basically email multi-MB PDF, Powerpoint and Excel files multiple times everyday. Just Joe Regular Engineer here. I'd love it if it was all in a server somewhere, but I truly doubt that it would be cheaper solution. But never mind the anecdotes.
Where is it that ChromeOS is going to beat MS Windows? Why is it better? Why would it be cheaper? What's the advantage?
The machines and the OS have local storage - you can set all your office files to copy locally if needed. And how often do the corporate or education networks fail at all let alone for a prolonged or meaningful time. Almost never.
It has 16 GB of local storage. In my travels, and in my home, I can get network access through wireless cards or WiFi, but it's obviously not the same performance as the local network. In fact, most of the time, it simply doesn't work. Having everything local is just easier, better, faster.
My wife has not problem with the remote computing thing and working through the server, but I can imagine her doing her work through a small laptop form factor. It needs to be 14" to 15".
Having a virtual drive with a local copy is the right way to go. I'd love it. But this sort of thing will inevitably be more expensive to do. Amazon charges $1/GB of storage. It seems people are expecting a free lunch here.
WebOS is HP - HP has tons of money and more corporate relationships than any other IT company. If HP is smart this is what they are trying to do so they can sell cheap hardware and profitable service contracts (which is what Google is trying to do). Whoever does it, it seems like the idea has legs.
Well certainly. Making more money should be their game. It's ok for me to think that HP does not have the same capability to create, change markets as Google does. Because, since when has HP done that?
Sol,
Having an SD card slot and/or USB ports for USB Drives on a device is good for introducing content to the device and saving content from the device. It is an excellent way of mitigating the limited storage of these devices.
But, what you seem to be suggesting is some sort of sneaker net.
That could be somewhat useful in moving content among devices when offline.
*sigh* You know this is getting tiring, Dick. This is no different from using an SD card or USB drive on any machine. You are still not understanding that these machines have INTERNAL STORAGE for their apps and files just like on an iPad except you get USB and SD ports Don’t say that your 60GB of raw soccer coverage won’t fit and that you can’t process it on these machines. You’re not suppose to, but you’re not suppose to on an iPad either and good luck doing it on a $400 notebook. You have a powerful iMac for that.
No, I’m not talking about a sneakernet, I was replying to a comment that implied that if your file size exceeds what is in the system then you have to push it to the cloud or you can’t use it or save it.
But, if you think about it, SD cards or USB Drives are not a good alternative for when the network is unavailable.
Why? Because you would have had to anticipate the unavailability, in advance, and download and save necessary files to the external media.
So why is external data okay for Macs but not for chrome books? Why has this all of a sudden become an issue for you? I have an 80GB SSD for my boot drive and a 500GB @7200RPM HDD for my Home folder. Those are internal. I also have a 3.5” 1TB HDD for my Time MAchine drive and a 2.5” 250GB HDD that holds a backup versions of Mac OS and additional video and audio I might want to watch/listen at some point.
The same dynamics are in effect for this type of machine with the difference being THIS IS NOT A REPLACEMENT FOR A TRADITIONAL PC FOR THE TRADITIONAL USER!!!
Then there is the whole problem of versioning files that were modified while offline -- especially if multiple people are collaborating on the same files,
WTF?! How is this different than another offline modification of the same file? The way that is handled is by the backend where the file primary file is held. Dropbox does this nicely letting you go back and see changes and only uploading/downloading changes it has made.
To have a "fool proof" system, each user, while online, would have to periodically save any file modifications to local storage.
THESE AREN’T DUMB TERMINAL THIN CLIENTS. THEY HAVE INTERNAL STORAGE!
After a few network failures, where you scurry around, locate the card or drive then the needed file, read it in to the ChromeBook make some modifications (being sure to save the changes)...
Whoops! The network is back up again. How do we get back to where we were -- the network files all updated, and saved to the local media...
Thank goodness we anticipated...
...Damn, the network's down again...
A few iterations of this and it's time to retire to the local Pub and reevaluate your offline operational strategy *
And, unless you have some sort of TimeMachine on the local network of ChromeBooks -- it really is impractical to do any work when the cloud or global network is un available.
If you do have a local TimeMachine, you are beginning to defeat the concept, increase costs, local support requirements and complexity.
I'm afraid it's pretty much "You're tethered -- or you're neutered."
You’re making up scenarios that don’t make any sense. If you have a bunch of MBPs all connecting to one file on a server and the network goes up and down you can still get the same situation you are talking about.
It’s a fucking OS, Dick. It does exactly what every other OS has ever done with the exception of eliminating the fat and building around the number one app that people use. WebKit and web code are now sophisticated enough to make this viable for certain tasks for certain people, including posting on this forum.
Hell, you can even use Citrix to get a remote VM of Windows or Solaris or Mac OS X Server right on your Chromebook. Of course, that does require a network connection but it’s no different than any other Citrix connection.
I have no idea what that means. If you left your data in the cloud and have no way to access it that?s your fault, but people that want their data local will have their data local just they do now on Windows, Mac OS, Android, iOS and WebOS.
So, what's the advantage? Why is it more beneficial? Is it cheaper?
Again, I have no idea what you?re talking about. Categorized? All of a sudden it?s not that an OS with WebKit for the UI is flawed, it?s that it?s only flawed if we?re talking about some sales in education or enterprise?
I don't know. The conversion spiraled out of sense when Jetz made the analogy that ChromeOS devices is like an iPad or iPhone and they are like cloud computers. Then it went to what it means to be a cloud computer.
I don't think you can really make that analogy. Not just yet.
I don?t recall any of these comments about WebOS not being able to work when you didn?t have an internet connection. ?But how can you use the phone dialer on EDGE to make a call if you can?t be on the carrier?s voice and data network at the same time??, ?How can you use the built-in calculator if you aren?t getting any service on your phone??, ?How can I play my games, listen to music and watch videos on my Palm Pre when I?m in Airplane Mode?? I don?t recall any such questions about how a WebKit based UI can have offline access to data. Palm made a lot of mistakes, but WebOS was not one of them.
I have no idea why you or others have veered into webOS. Currently, webOS isn't trying to do what ChromeOS is attempting to do.