Whoops! The network is back up again. How do we get back to where we were -- the network files all updated, and saved to the local media...
Thank goodness we anticipated...
...Damn, the network's down again...
This has nothing to do with a ChromeBook. If you are using a MacPro or an iPad, when you are accessing the Internet for your work and the network goes down your productivity is going to be affected.
Network connectivity failures are extremely rare though, outside of mobile computing. I can count on one hand the number of times I have lost Internet connections in the last decade, and even then it was for no more than a minute or two.
I have no idea why you or others have veered into webOS. Currently, webOS isn't trying to do what ChromeOS is attempting to do.
Yeah, it is. They are both a Linux kernel with a UI and apps built atop WebKit. The arguments have been that it?s impossible to have a decent OS when your only app is a ?web browser?.
I work in an MS Office and Exchange corporate environment. My email archive is hundreds of GBs. We basically email multi-MB PDF, Powerpoint and Excel files multiple times everyday. Just Joe Regular Engineer here. I'd love it if it was all in a server somewhere, but I truly doubt that it would be cheaper solution. But never mind the anecdotes.
Where is it that ChromeOS is going to beat MS Windows? Why is it better? Why would it be cheaper? What's the advantage?
Nothing regular about being an engineer. Not that many of you around and you create superlarge and complex files. We are talking office drones here - bringing up your special case does nothing to invalidate Chrome for its intended purposes.
Emailing large files around is why the cloud was invented. Most of my work with clients is to move them off email addiction which is the lowest and least useful form of collaboration. If that remains your use case then the emailing element is no harder in Chrome email client than exchange/outlook. Your issue is in creating the multi-MB files which I agree, Chrome and its apps are likely not well suited to do. BUT YOUR CASE IS A MINORITY. Most MS Office files are small. MS themselves is trying to get you to do exactly the same via BPOS/Virtual Desktop/Azure cloud but with the deadweight of Windows holding it down. My Windows XP on a decent dual-core Lenovo T-series laptop takes 15 minutes before I can work. 15 minutes (used to be 22 before i got a local geek to hack the registry and remove some of the Corporate IT bloat/security overhead). Win 7 for my colleagues with the new T412s is no better (and has plenty of other bugs just in the bloatware). Chrome is much lighter weight and for the vast majority of office tasks will do as good or better job on cheaper hardware with less required support.
Windows support costs are massive for large companies. Licensing costs are multi-million dollars and involve annual maintenance fees of about 20% per year of the initial license. Upgrades are expensive, MS are constantly trying to upsell you crap you don't need or is inferior to best in class solutions. And that is before you've paid for your own IT support minions to tell you to "switch it off and on again". Chrome OS could very well incur a fraction of the cost of corporate IT spend per user per year when you count HW/SW/Support TCO. When hardware breaks, bring out new $100 box, plug in monitor/KB. No imaging the HD, no data recovery, no delay. It's almost the hot swappable desktop. That is the vision at least (and it's the one that MS will try to sell you for $Ms)
Windows move to a cloud-centric OS is confusing, slow, and weak - why not cut out the pain for the standard office jobs and go Chrome? I am not so much pushing for Chrome as against the status quo which is generally pretty crappy despite the fact that we have all become used to it. Let's not confuse familiarity for quality.
*sigh* You know this is getting tiring, Dick. This is no different from using an SD card or USB drive on any machine. You are still not understanding that these machines have INTERNAL STORAGE for their apps and files just like on an iPad except you get USB and SD ports Don?t say that your 60GB of raw soccer coverage won?t fit and that you can?t process it on these machines. You?re not suppose to, but you?re not suppose to on an iPad either and good luck doing it on a $400 notebook. You have a powerful iMac for that.
No, I?m not talking about a sneakernet, I was replying to a comment that implied that if your file size exceeds what is in the system then you have to push it to the cloud or you can?t use it or save it.
So why is external data okay for Macs but not for chrome books? Why has this all of a sudden become an issue for you? I have an 80GB SSD for my boot drive and a 500GB @7200RPM HDD for my Home folder. Those are internal. I also have a 3.5? 1TB HDD for my Time MAchine drive and a 2.5? 250GB HDD that holds a backup versions of Mac OS and additional video and audio I might want to watch/listen at some point.
The same dynamics are in effect for this type of machine with the difference being THIS IS NOT A REPLACEMENT FOR A TRADITIONAL PC FOR THE TRADITIONAL USER!!!
WTF?! How is this different than another offline modification of the same file? The way that is handled is by the backend where the file primary file is held. Dropbox does this nicely letting you go back and see changes and only uploading/downloading changes it has made.
THESE AREN?T DUMB TERMINAL THIN CLIENTS. THEY HAVE INTERNAL STORAGE!
You?re making up scenarios that don?t make any sense. If you have a bunch of MBPs all connecting to one file on a server and the network goes up and down you can still get the same situation you are talking about.
It?s a fucking OS, Dick. It does exactly what every other OS has ever done with the exception of eliminating the fat and building around the number one app that people use. WebKit and web code are now sophisticated enough to make this viable for certain tasks for certain people, including posting on this forum.
Hell, you can even use Citrix to get a remote VM of Windows or Solaris or Mac OS X Server right on your Chromebook. Of course, that does require a network connection but it?s no different than any other Citrix connection.
Sol...
This is getting tedious.
With all due respect, you keep changing the the discussion.
Simple question:
Where is the current version of the file you are working on:
1) In the cloud
2) on your ChromeBook
3) on an external USB Drive
Pick one!
That's what you have to be connected to to get your work done.
You can't just say, that if that's not available I can switch to one of the other 2 choices -- by definition they don't have the current version of the file.
Also, you seem to conveniently ignore the fact that the file in the cloud could easily exceed the capacity of any local storage on or attached to your Chromebook.
Today's LANs have more robust computers with larger internal HDDs and/or local networked storage. So they can operate when the global network is not available.
Like it or not, except for a few special cases, you have to be tethered to the cloud for the ChromeBook to be of value.
With all due respect, you keep changing the the discussion.
Simple question:
Where is the current version of the file you are working on:
1) In the cloud
2) on your ChromeBook
3) on an external USB Drive
Pick one!
That's what you have to be connected to to get your work done.
You can't just say, that if that's not available I can switch to one of the other 2 choices -- by definition they don't have the current version of the file.
Also, you seem to conveniently ignore the fact that the file in the cloud could easily exceed the capacity of any local storage on or attached to your Chromebook.
Today's LANs have more robust computers with larger internal HDDs and/or local networked storage. So they can operate when the global network is not available.
Like it or not, except for a few special cases, you have to be tethered to the cloud for the ChromeBook to be of value.
Dick, where is the current version of the file you are working on:
1) In the cloud
2) on your iMac
3) on an external USB Drive
Pick one!
Same damn thing. Files can be stored in multiple places for multiple reasons. That’s how modern computers function.
Like it or not, you’re still ignoring that Chrome OS doesn’t have to be tethered to anything to work.
You’re inventing a problem that doesn’t exist. If it exists then tell me how one can still play video, read emails, listen to music, and edit documents on a Palm Pre when Airplane Mode is enabled.
I am advocating replacing them with almost disposable hardware (that costs less over 3 years than a properly supported Windows machine) using an OS that provides superior cloud-based performance. Most businesses and schools will take the Samsung desktop or similar which is basically a bumped up ATV2 type thing. Hardware will be under $200 and less likely to break than a laptop.
Where did you come up with $200? At $28 per month, the crapbook is $1,008 over 3 years. That's far more than a much faster and much more capable Windows laptop. See the examples I gave above. Heck, for some of them, you could buy a new one every year and throw the old one in the trash for $1,0008.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Capnbob
Netbooks with Windows do nothing well - we have spent the last year+ crowing that in support of the iPad. Can't go changing our tune now that someone else has found a different way to undermine them. As we all know, they are underpowered, have terrible keyboards and screen unless you buy one of the more expensive ones. The same CPU with better screen and keyboard under Chrome will be infinitely better than a netbook for the limited set of tasks envisaged in genera business and education use.
Remember - it is horses for courses. The netbook is a nag unfit for any race, the Chromebook/desktop will do well at it's intended distance/race/use.
I'm still waiting for an explanation.
The crapbook costs more than a much more powerful and much more capable Windows laptop. So why should you buy the crapbook when:
- it's more expensive
- it's of no use when you're not connected to the Internet (although Google promises that some day you'll be able to use it when not connected)
- it places all of your data on Google's servers where even Google admits that they're going to mine it
- it requires you to retrain your personnel and spend time and money coming up with an entirely new workflow
Like it or not, you?re still ignoring that Chrome OS doesn?t have to be tethered to anything to work.
He's ignoring it because you're lying.
Today, Chrome OS and Google Apps require you to be connected to the Internet to accomplish anything.
Google has promised that, at some unspecified time in the future, they will offer the capability to do your work without being connected to the Internet, but until they accomplish that, your statement is a flat out lie. I've already pointed that out to you once - why do you keep lying?
Where did you come up with $200? At $28 per month, the crapbook is $1,008 over 3 years. That's far more than a much faster and much more capable Windows laptop. See the examples I gave above. Heck, for some of them, you could buy a new one every year and throw the old one in the trash for $1,0008.
1) He referenced the desktop model, not the chromebooks. Pay attention!
2) You conveniently are comparing a Windows laptop that you pay in full to a subscription based device that comes with 3 years of full service and support. Why don?t you actually look into what a $500 Windows laptop costs a company over three years when they are paying for it month from a 3rd-party service. Hint: It?s considerably more per month? and that doesn?t include OS updates, firmware updates, anti-virus updates, or power usage costs.
Where did you come up with $200? At $28 per month, the crapbook is $1,008 over 3 years. That's far more than a much faster and much more capable Windows laptop. See the examples I gave above. Heck, for some of them, you could buy a new one every year and throw the old one in the trash for $1,0008.
It is $28 a month for 2 years at which time they replace the hardware for free. It is much less expensive than a Windows machine and it is continually upgraded, you always have the most current version of the applications, there is zero cost for maintenance or support, it is an adequate machine for a large percentage users and it is faster, more protected and easy to use. Sounds like it might get a few people interested in trying it. In a corporate or academic environment they don't just go out and order thousands of machines sight unseen. They do a small sample test to see if it is going to meet their needs or not and if so they gradually roll it out. Why would any institution just take your word as gospel and dismiss the whole idea as bunk? Answer: They won't.
It has 16 GB of local storage. In my travels, and in my home, I can get network access through wireless cards or WiFi, but it's obviously not the same performance as the local network. In fact, most of the time, it simply doesn't work. Having everything local is just easier, better, faster.
My wife has not problem with the remote computing thing and working through the server, but I can imagine her doing her work through a small laptop form factor. It needs to be 14" to 15".
Having a virtual drive with a local copy is the right way to go. I'd love it. But this sort of thing will inevitably be more expensive to do. Amazon charges $1/GB of storage. It seems people are expecting a free lunch here.
Well certainly. Making more money should be their game. It's ok for me to think that HP does not have the same capability to create, change markets as Google does. Because, since when has HP done that?
Opening most MS Office files over the network is trivial. Many companies force you to do that today by making you save your files to local file servers. Really large complex files are likely not in the Chrome sweetspot but that is a minority of cases.
Why would you conflate the relative strength of a specific piece of hardware as ANY FORM OF INVALIDATION OF THE PLATFORM? There will be bigger laptops, little ATV style desktops, plug in a monitor, and extra HD (tho why? for the Office/Education uses outlined for this thing).
Again - nitpicking at the costs of storage for a consumer vs. the overall Chrome story which is primarily Business/Education is irrelevant. A College, School Board, Enterprise will negotiate very sweet cloud pricing (like they do with every hosting vendor today) almost certainly at lower cost than they can possibly deliver it through their own IT staff. That's why there is so much outsourcing to hosting providers today.
HP/Compaq has changed games in the past. HP with personal printing, Compaq with IBM clones, etc. Google has changed only 2 - search and online advertising. The idea isn't who will change the game, but who will be good at executing. Google seems to be inventing this new game but HP is well placed to succeed in it as well. Just like Apple invented the new smartphone game but Google is also succeeding in it.
Chrome OS and Google Apps require you to be connected to the Internet to accomplish anything.
It?s amazing that you post such BS despite the truth constantly beating you in the face.
Look at that! Accessed Chrome OS without being connected to any network. It?s almost like magic? or that there is local storage and file access that makes it useful offline like a regular computer. How fucking amazing!
edit: Right from Google?s own page:
Every Chromebook runs millions of web apps, from games to spreadsheets to photo editors. Thanks to the power of HTML5, many apps keep working even in those rare moments when you're not connected.
Can?t wait to see how you spin that into Google is lying.
Where did you come up with $200? At $28 per month, the crapbook is $1,008 over 3 years. That's far more than a much faster and much more capable Windows laptop. See the examples I gave above. Heck, for some of them, you could buy a new one every year and throw the old one in the trash for $1,0008.
I'm still waiting for an explanation.
The crapbook costs more than a much more powerful and much more capable Windows laptop. So why should you buy the crapbook when:
- it's more expensive
- it's of no use when you're not connected to the Internet (although Google promises that some day you'll be able to use it when not connected)
- it places all of your data on Google's servers where even Google admits that they're going to mine it
- it requires you to retrain your personnel and spend time and money coming up with an entirely new workflow
So what rational reason is there to do that?
Oh, yeah. It boots faster.
Cool your jets psycho! Your arguments are a mess of business issues for a consumer users (consumers don't rent Chrome, they buy a machine) and consumer issues for business users (TCO for a business laptop is about $4-5000 over 3 years).
The crapbook (as you call it) is NOT more expensive than the equivalent Windows machine for an enterprise. Do you have no idea what the Enterprise Total Cost of Ownership for a Business PC is? MS estimated at Win 7 launch that it would save $90 per PC per year in support cost which they estimate as 10% savings. That implies $800-900 per year per PC just in local support costs. Add servers and backup farms no longer needed since you are renting Google's cloud, hundreds of $ of MS licenses and fees per PC per year and the "crapbook" or "craptop" (for the little desktop version) is WAAAAAY cheaper over 3 years - even adding $50 per user per year for GDocs and something for 20GB of cloud per user.
Economics are NOT EVEN CLOSE for A BUSINESS or Institution.
Stop pretending that the Chrome rental concept as expressed here so far is for individuals. If you want one, you buy the machine for netbook $s ($349-429) and pay next to nothing to Google since you get cloud and Docs basically for free or pennies as an individual. I expect the desktop to be $200 based on the Atom/ION net-tops already available.
As for your other crap...
1) Docs and Mail is already offline capable, calendar will be eventually, many other web-apps will have offline modes (like several do today) and for the Business use case - THE NETWORK IS ALWAYS ON!!!
2) Google does not mine corporate data. If you use GDocs already - millions do, then you're being mined - not feeling the pain so far - except the existential crisis of FUD from people like you.
3) People adapt to superior workflow all the time. I do that for a living. Facebook was a fundamental shift in workflow in managing personal relationships as is all social media - people adjusted pretty well because it was better. Creating your files in the cloud, never having to save, backup. email (if public folder type things are done right) is better than create locally, save in some arcane structure only you understand, find it, email it, back it up, etc. etc.
It is $28 a month for 2 years at which time they replace the hardware for free. It is much less expensive than a Windows machine and it is continually upgraded,
Let's see. That's $672. I showed you a wide range of full laptops (far more powerful than your crapbook) that are under $400. You could replace them every 2 years, as well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone
you always have the most current version of the applications, there is zero cost for maintenance or support,
The support argument doesn't fly. No company in its right mind is going to suddenly fire all their IT people and rely on Google to support the company.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone
it is an adequate machine for a large percentage users and it is faster, more protected and easy to use.
Faster? Other than boot time, just how in the world do you expect that something relying on data transfer over the Internet and an Atom processor to be faster than a full-blown laptop at anything but the most trivial tasks?
Adequate for a large percentage of users? That's your opinion. But considering the security issues, it's not likely. So where are all the big companies that have committed to using it?
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone
Sounds like it might get a few people interested in trying it. In a corporate or academic environment they don't just go out and order thousands of machines sight unseen. They do a small sample test to see if it is going to meet their needs or not and if so they gradually roll it out. Why would any institution just take your word as gospel and dismiss the whole idea as bunk? Answer: They won't.
What a ridiculous argument. I never said they should simply take my word for it. I've given a lot of reasons why the crapbook is a lousy idea - and you haven't refuted a single one.
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism
It’s amazing that you post such BS despite the truth constantly beating you in the face.
Look at that! Accessed Chrome OS without being connected to any network. It’s almost like magic… or that there is local storage and file access that makes it useful offline like a regular computer. How fucking amazing!
Let's see. Google says that it requires the Internet access and you disagree. Who should we believe?
BTW, there's absolutely no way to know from that picture what you're claiming. You cold have loaded that screen and THEN disconnected the network adapter.
Sorry, I'll believe Google's public statements before someone who sounds a lot like a paid Google shill.
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism
edit: Right from Google’s own page:
Every Chromebook runs millions of web apps, from games to spreadsheets to photo editors. Thanks to the power of HTML5, many apps keep working even in those rare moments when you're not connected.
Can’t wait to see how you spin that into Google is lying.
The difference, of course, is that I understand technology while you apparently don't.
Obviously, if you have a web app fully loaded on your system, that will continue to work if disconnected. But you won't be able to save anything to the cloud, won't be able to switch to anything new, and so on.
I gave you Google's own statement that it's not possible yet.
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism
DIck,
Because I fear you might fall victim to the FUD jargosta is spreading do this simple test.
3) Install and load Angry Birds. Should be premiered on the front page
4) Turn off your access to the internet.
5) Play Angry Birds.
6. Explain to people like solipsism who apparently don't understand computers very well that there's a difference between an OS and a browser.
7. Try to understand why solipsism's best example of how an Enterprise IT department would work is Angry Birds.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Capnbob
Cool your jets psycho! Your arguments are a mess of business issues for a consumer users (consumers don't rent Chrome, they buy a machine) and consumer issues for business users (TCO for a business laptop is about $4-5000 over 3 years).
Funny, but when the issue was whether MacBooks were too expensive, people like you were denying numbers like that. Now that it's convenient, you are suddenly sure that the numbers are real.
You're using a bogus imaginary argument. IT costs for a company do not go to zero simply because they use a crapbook. They still need to develop custom apps. Still need to support user problems. Still need to train users. Still need to manage their servers. Still need to support the network infrastructure.
Claiming that IT support costs go to zero is absolute proof that you don't have ANY idea what you're talking about.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Capnbob
The crapbook (as you call it) is NOT more expensive than the equivalent Windows machine for an enterprise. Do you have no idea what the Enterprise Total Cost of Ownership for a Business PC is? MS estimated at Win 7 launch that it would save $90 per PC per year in support cost which they estimate as 10% savings. That implies $800-900 per year per PC just in local support costs. Add servers and backup farms no longer needed since you are renting Google's cloud, hundreds of $ of MS licenses and fees per PC per year and the "crapbook" or "craptop" (for the little desktop version) is WAAAAAY cheaper over 3 years - even adding $50 per user per year for GDocs and something for 20GB of cloud per user.
I see you're still ignoring the fact that I can buy a REAL laptop for much less than a crapbook. Oh, I get it - you want everyone to accept Google's inane proposition that no one will ever need an IT group again? Sorry, I'm not buying.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Capnbob
Economics are NOT EVEN CLOSE for A BUSINESS or Institution.
Stop pretending that the Chrome rental concept as expressed here so far is for individuals. If you want one, you buy the machine for netbook $s ($349-429) and pay next to nothing to Google since you get cloud and Docs basically for free or pennies as an individual. I expect the desktop to be $200 based on the Atom/ION net-tops already available.
I never said that it was for individuals. In fact, all of my arguments were specifically directed at business use.
And I'm not interested in your expectations of price. You can't even get the facts right - why should I pay any attention to your delusions?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Capnbob
As for your other crap...
1) Docs and Mail is already offline capable,
Not according to Google (see the quote above). Mail is only offline capable if you're running Outlook or something equivalent - and that won't work on a crapbook. Docs works the same way.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Capnbob
calendar will be eventually, many other web-apps will have offline modes (like several do today) and for the Business use case - THE NETWORK IS ALWAYS ON!!!
I see. So businesses are support to throw out their entire IT infrastructure and jump into using crapbooks simply because Google promises that some day they'll be useful? :roll eyes:
You Google shills must really think that users are stupid.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Capnbob
2) Google does not mine corporate data. If you use GDocs already - millions do, then you're being mined - not feeling the pain so far - except the existential crisis of FUD from people like you.
Google admitted that they DO mine data from Google Apps. See above.
So who do we believe - a published statement from Google or the whining of a Google shill?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Capnbob
3) People adapt to superior workflow all the time. I do that for a living. Facebook was a fundamental shift in workflow in managing personal relationships as is all social media - people adjusted pretty well because it was better. Creating your files in the cloud, never having to save, backup. email (if public folder type things are done right) is better than create locally, save in some arcane structure only you understand, find it, email it, back it up, etc. etc.
I've given a lot of reasons why the crapbook is a lousy idea - and you haven't refuted a single one
There is no point in me continuing the discussion. You apparently have an agenda with your "crapbook" argument or you are suffering from extreme delusional paranoia disorder.
You obviously lack the imagination to see how most people would find a good browser useful for their computer needs. No use debating when you think the average family edits video every night.
There's an app store. Angry birds is already out.
So?
Everything that runs offline in your browser now (like Google docs) will run offline in Chrome OS....because it's a browser.
So...what's the upside? If the app runs & I use it the cloud doesn't matter...so what's the point. That google can now access everything I work on & data mine that for info?
1) It'll build up....like the app store for any platform. Just give it time.
This is wishful thinking. How much time is time?
2) It'll be part of a solution. Nobody intends for any user to solely use Chromebooks for everything. You aren't going to be doing CAD on a Chromebook.
And less useful. What stops apple or any other company from offering the same services with an iPad. Cloud storage is not exactly a killer idea.
4) Leasing is one option. That was offered directly by Google as a service to businesses and educational institutions. You can buy directly from a retailer if you wish. And it won't cost you $1000.
Because it's not worth $1000 dollars...you're comparing a snowflake & an avalanche & saying they are the same thing.
There is no point in me continuing the discussion. You apparently have an agenda with your "crapbook" argument or you are suffering from extreme delusional paranoia disorder.
I guess for you, there probably is no point in continuing the discussion. You haven't refuted a single one of my arguments.
And it's clever how you continue with the ad hominem arguments - further demonstrating that you have nothing intelligent to say.
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism
This is why you people are ridiculous idiots. $1000? the cheapest model so far is $349. One-third the stupid fucking claim you are making.
Excuse me? The Google shills have been ranting on and on about how $28 per month for 36 months is such a great deal and businesses are going to be all over it like flies.
Excuse me? The Google shills have been ranting on and on about how $28 per month for 36 months is such a great deal and businesses are going to be all over it like flies.
Do the flipping math.
Compared to $3000 for a leased device that only needs a web browser on the LAN, then that is a steal for the enterprise. For the consumer $349 will get you full-sized notebook and oversized-multitouch trackpad. You know this but you keep fudging the facts for some odd hatred of Google.
Comments
Whoops! The network is back up again. How do we get back to where we were -- the network files all updated, and saved to the local media...
Thank goodness we anticipated...
...Damn, the network's down again...
This has nothing to do with a ChromeBook. If you are using a MacPro or an iPad, when you are accessing the Internet for your work and the network goes down your productivity is going to be affected.
Network connectivity failures are extremely rare though, outside of mobile computing. I can count on one hand the number of times I have lost Internet connections in the last decade, and even then it was for no more than a minute or two.
I have no idea why you or others have veered into webOS. Currently, webOS isn't trying to do what ChromeOS is attempting to do.
Yeah, it is. They are both a Linux kernel with a UI and apps built atop WebKit. The arguments have been that it?s impossible to have a decent OS when your only app is a ?web browser?.
I work in an MS Office and Exchange corporate environment. My email archive is hundreds of GBs. We basically email multi-MB PDF, Powerpoint and Excel files multiple times everyday. Just Joe Regular Engineer here. I'd love it if it was all in a server somewhere, but I truly doubt that it would be cheaper solution. But never mind the anecdotes.
Where is it that ChromeOS is going to beat MS Windows? Why is it better? Why would it be cheaper? What's the advantage?
Nothing regular about being an engineer. Not that many of you around and you create superlarge and complex files. We are talking office drones here - bringing up your special case does nothing to invalidate Chrome for its intended purposes.
Emailing large files around is why the cloud was invented. Most of my work with clients is to move them off email addiction which is the lowest and least useful form of collaboration. If that remains your use case then the emailing element is no harder in Chrome email client than exchange/outlook. Your issue is in creating the multi-MB files which I agree, Chrome and its apps are likely not well suited to do. BUT YOUR CASE IS A MINORITY. Most MS Office files are small. MS themselves is trying to get you to do exactly the same via BPOS/Virtual Desktop/Azure cloud but with the deadweight of Windows holding it down. My Windows XP on a decent dual-core Lenovo T-series laptop takes 15 minutes before I can work. 15 minutes (used to be 22 before i got a local geek to hack the registry and remove some of the Corporate IT bloat/security overhead). Win 7 for my colleagues with the new T412s is no better (and has plenty of other bugs just in the bloatware). Chrome is much lighter weight and for the vast majority of office tasks will do as good or better job on cheaper hardware with less required support.
Windows support costs are massive for large companies. Licensing costs are multi-million dollars and involve annual maintenance fees of about 20% per year of the initial license. Upgrades are expensive, MS are constantly trying to upsell you crap you don't need or is inferior to best in class solutions. And that is before you've paid for your own IT support minions to tell you to "switch it off and on again". Chrome OS could very well incur a fraction of the cost of corporate IT spend per user per year when you count HW/SW/Support TCO. When hardware breaks, bring out new $100 box, plug in monitor/KB. No imaging the HD, no data recovery, no delay. It's almost the hot swappable desktop. That is the vision at least (and it's the one that MS will try to sell you for $Ms)
Windows move to a cloud-centric OS is confusing, slow, and weak - why not cut out the pain for the standard office jobs and go Chrome? I am not so much pushing for Chrome as against the status quo which is generally pretty crappy despite the fact that we have all become used to it. Let's not confuse familiarity for quality.
*sigh* You know this is getting tiring, Dick. This is no different from using an SD card or USB drive on any machine. You are still not understanding that these machines have INTERNAL STORAGE for their apps and files just like on an iPad except you get USB and SD ports Don?t say that your 60GB of raw soccer coverage won?t fit and that you can?t process it on these machines. You?re not suppose to, but you?re not suppose to on an iPad either and good luck doing it on a $400 notebook. You have a powerful iMac for that.
No, I?m not talking about a sneakernet, I was replying to a comment that implied that if your file size exceeds what is in the system then you have to push it to the cloud or you can?t use it or save it.
So why is external data okay for Macs but not for chrome books? Why has this all of a sudden become an issue for you? I have an 80GB SSD for my boot drive and a 500GB @7200RPM HDD for my Home folder. Those are internal. I also have a 3.5? 1TB HDD for my Time MAchine drive and a 2.5? 250GB HDD that holds a backup versions of Mac OS and additional video and audio I might want to watch/listen at some point.
The same dynamics are in effect for this type of machine with the difference being THIS IS NOT A REPLACEMENT FOR A TRADITIONAL PC FOR THE TRADITIONAL USER!!!
WTF?! How is this different than another offline modification of the same file? The way that is handled is by the backend where the file primary file is held. Dropbox does this nicely letting you go back and see changes and only uploading/downloading changes it has made.
THESE AREN?T DUMB TERMINAL THIN CLIENTS. THEY HAVE INTERNAL STORAGE!
You?re making up scenarios that don?t make any sense. If you have a bunch of MBPs all connecting to one file on a server and the network goes up and down you can still get the same situation you are talking about.
It?s a fucking OS, Dick. It does exactly what every other OS has ever done with the exception of eliminating the fat and building around the number one app that people use. WebKit and web code are now sophisticated enough to make this viable for certain tasks for certain people, including posting on this forum.
Hell, you can even use Citrix to get a remote VM of Windows or Solaris or Mac OS X Server right on your Chromebook. Of course, that does require a network connection but it?s no different than any other Citrix connection.
Sol...
This is getting tedious.
With all due respect, you keep changing the the discussion.
Simple question:
Where is the current version of the file you are working on:
1) In the cloud
2) on your ChromeBook
3) on an external USB Drive
Pick one!
That's what you have to be connected to to get your work done.
You can't just say, that if that's not available I can switch to one of the other 2 choices -- by definition they don't have the current version of the file.
Also, you seem to conveniently ignore the fact that the file in the cloud could easily exceed the capacity of any local storage on or attached to your Chromebook.
Today's LANs have more robust computers with larger internal HDDs and/or local networked storage. So they can operate when the global network is not available.
Like it or not, except for a few special cases, you have to be tethered to the cloud for the ChromeBook to be of value.
Sol...
This is getting tedious.
With all due respect, you keep changing the the discussion.
Simple question:
Where is the current version of the file you are working on:
1) In the cloud
2) on your ChromeBook
3) on an external USB Drive
Pick one!
That's what you have to be connected to to get your work done.
You can't just say, that if that's not available I can switch to one of the other 2 choices -- by definition they don't have the current version of the file.
Also, you seem to conveniently ignore the fact that the file in the cloud could easily exceed the capacity of any local storage on or attached to your Chromebook.
Today's LANs have more robust computers with larger internal HDDs and/or local networked storage. So they can operate when the global network is not available.
Like it or not, except for a few special cases, you have to be tethered to the cloud for the ChromeBook to be of value.
Dick, where is the current version of the file you are working on:
1) In the cloud
2) on your iMac
3) on an external USB Drive
Pick one!
Same damn thing. Files can be stored in multiple places for multiple reasons. That’s how modern computers function.
Like it or not, you’re still ignoring that Chrome OS doesn’t have to be tethered to anything to work.
You’re inventing a problem that doesn’t exist. If it exists then tell me how one can still play video, read emails, listen to music, and edit documents on a Palm Pre when Airplane Mode is enabled.
I am advocating replacing them with almost disposable hardware (that costs less over 3 years than a properly supported Windows machine) using an OS that provides superior cloud-based performance. Most businesses and schools will take the Samsung desktop or similar which is basically a bumped up ATV2 type thing. Hardware will be under $200 and less likely to break than a laptop.
Where did you come up with $200? At $28 per month, the crapbook is $1,008 over 3 years. That's far more than a much faster and much more capable Windows laptop. See the examples I gave above. Heck, for some of them, you could buy a new one every year and throw the old one in the trash for $1,0008.
Netbooks with Windows do nothing well - we have spent the last year+ crowing that in support of the iPad. Can't go changing our tune now that someone else has found a different way to undermine them. As we all know, they are underpowered, have terrible keyboards and screen unless you buy one of the more expensive ones. The same CPU with better screen and keyboard under Chrome will be infinitely better than a netbook for the limited set of tasks envisaged in genera business and education use.
Remember - it is horses for courses. The netbook is a nag unfit for any race, the Chromebook/desktop will do well at it's intended distance/race/use.
I'm still waiting for an explanation.
The crapbook costs more than a much more powerful and much more capable Windows laptop. So why should you buy the crapbook when:
- it's more expensive
- it's of no use when you're not connected to the Internet (although Google promises that some day you'll be able to use it when not connected)
- it places all of your data on Google's servers where even Google admits that they're going to mine it
- it requires you to retrain your personnel and spend time and money coming up with an entirely new workflow
So what rational reason is there to do that?
Oh, yeah. It boots faster.
Like it or not, you?re still ignoring that Chrome OS doesn?t have to be tethered to anything to work.
He's ignoring it because you're lying.
Today, Chrome OS and Google Apps require you to be connected to the Internet to accomplish anything.
Google has promised that, at some unspecified time in the future, they will offer the capability to do your work without being connected to the Internet, but until they accomplish that, your statement is a flat out lie. I've already pointed that out to you once - why do you keep lying?
Where did you come up with $200? At $28 per month, the crapbook is $1,008 over 3 years. That's far more than a much faster and much more capable Windows laptop. See the examples I gave above. Heck, for some of them, you could buy a new one every year and throw the old one in the trash for $1,0008.
1) He referenced the desktop model, not the chromebooks. Pay attention!
2) You conveniently are comparing a Windows laptop that you pay in full to a subscription based device that comes with 3 years of full service and support. Why don?t you actually look into what a $500 Windows laptop costs a company over three years when they are paying for it month from a 3rd-party service. Hint: It?s considerably more per month? and that doesn?t include OS updates, firmware updates, anti-virus updates, or power usage costs.
Where did you come up with $200? At $28 per month, the crapbook is $1,008 over 3 years. That's far more than a much faster and much more capable Windows laptop. See the examples I gave above. Heck, for some of them, you could buy a new one every year and throw the old one in the trash for $1,0008.
It is $28 a month for 2 years at which time they replace the hardware for free. It is much less expensive than a Windows machine and it is continually upgraded, you always have the most current version of the applications, there is zero cost for maintenance or support, it is an adequate machine for a large percentage users and it is faster, more protected and easy to use. Sounds like it might get a few people interested in trying it. In a corporate or academic environment they don't just go out and order thousands of machines sight unseen. They do a small sample test to see if it is going to meet their needs or not and if so they gradually roll it out. Why would any institution just take your word as gospel and dismiss the whole idea as bunk? Answer: They won't.
It has 16 GB of local storage. In my travels, and in my home, I can get network access through wireless cards or WiFi, but it's obviously not the same performance as the local network. In fact, most of the time, it simply doesn't work. Having everything local is just easier, better, faster.
My wife has not problem with the remote computing thing and working through the server, but I can imagine her doing her work through a small laptop form factor. It needs to be 14" to 15".
Having a virtual drive with a local copy is the right way to go. I'd love it. But this sort of thing will inevitably be more expensive to do. Amazon charges $1/GB of storage. It seems people are expecting a free lunch here.
Well certainly. Making more money should be their game. It's ok for me to think that HP does not have the same capability to create, change markets as Google does. Because, since when has HP done that?
Opening most MS Office files over the network is trivial. Many companies force you to do that today by making you save your files to local file servers. Really large complex files are likely not in the Chrome sweetspot but that is a minority of cases.
Why would you conflate the relative strength of a specific piece of hardware as ANY FORM OF INVALIDATION OF THE PLATFORM? There will be bigger laptops, little ATV style desktops, plug in a monitor, and extra HD (tho why? for the Office/Education uses outlined for this thing).
Again - nitpicking at the costs of storage for a consumer vs. the overall Chrome story which is primarily Business/Education is irrelevant. A College, School Board, Enterprise will negotiate very sweet cloud pricing (like they do with every hosting vendor today) almost certainly at lower cost than they can possibly deliver it through their own IT staff. That's why there is so much outsourcing to hosting providers today.
HP/Compaq has changed games in the past. HP with personal printing, Compaq with IBM clones, etc. Google has changed only 2 - search and online advertising. The idea isn't who will change the game, but who will be good at executing. Google seems to be inventing this new game but HP is well placed to succeed in it as well. Just like Apple invented the new smartphone game but Google is also succeeding in it.
Chrome OS and Google Apps require you to be connected to the Internet to accomplish anything.
It?s amazing that you post such BS despite the truth constantly beating you in the face.Look at that! Accessed Chrome OS without being connected to any network. It?s almost like magic? or that there is local storage and file access that makes it useful offline like a regular computer. How fucking amazing!
edit: Right from Google?s own page:Can?t wait to see how you spin that into Google is lying.
Where did you come up with $200? At $28 per month, the crapbook is $1,008 over 3 years. That's far more than a much faster and much more capable Windows laptop. See the examples I gave above. Heck, for some of them, you could buy a new one every year and throw the old one in the trash for $1,0008.
I'm still waiting for an explanation.
The crapbook costs more than a much more powerful and much more capable Windows laptop. So why should you buy the crapbook when:
- it's more expensive
- it's of no use when you're not connected to the Internet (although Google promises that some day you'll be able to use it when not connected)
- it places all of your data on Google's servers where even Google admits that they're going to mine it
- it requires you to retrain your personnel and spend time and money coming up with an entirely new workflow
So what rational reason is there to do that?
Oh, yeah. It boots faster.
Cool your jets psycho! Your arguments are a mess of business issues for a consumer users (consumers don't rent Chrome, they buy a machine) and consumer issues for business users (TCO for a business laptop is about $4-5000 over 3 years).
The crapbook (as you call it) is NOT more expensive than the equivalent Windows machine for an enterprise. Do you have no idea what the Enterprise Total Cost of Ownership for a Business PC is? MS estimated at Win 7 launch that it would save $90 per PC per year in support cost which they estimate as 10% savings. That implies $800-900 per year per PC just in local support costs. Add servers and backup farms no longer needed since you are renting Google's cloud, hundreds of $ of MS licenses and fees per PC per year and the "crapbook" or "craptop" (for the little desktop version) is WAAAAAY cheaper over 3 years - even adding $50 per user per year for GDocs and something for 20GB of cloud per user.
Economics are NOT EVEN CLOSE for A BUSINESS or Institution.
Stop pretending that the Chrome rental concept as expressed here so far is for individuals. If you want one, you buy the machine for netbook $s ($349-429) and pay next to nothing to Google since you get cloud and Docs basically for free or pennies as an individual. I expect the desktop to be $200 based on the Atom/ION net-tops already available.
As for your other crap...
1) Docs and Mail is already offline capable, calendar will be eventually, many other web-apps will have offline modes (like several do today) and for the Business use case - THE NETWORK IS ALWAYS ON!!!
2) Google does not mine corporate data. If you use GDocs already - millions do, then you're being mined - not feeling the pain so far - except the existential crisis of FUD from people like you.
3) People adapt to superior workflow all the time. I do that for a living. Facebook was a fundamental shift in workflow in managing personal relationships as is all social media - people adjusted pretty well because it was better. Creating your files in the cloud, never having to save, backup. email (if public folder type things are done right) is better than create locally, save in some arcane structure only you understand, find it, email it, back it up, etc. etc.
Because I fear you might fall victim to the FUD jargosta is spreading do this simple test.
1) Run Chrome. The browser, not the OS.
2) Go to the Chrome Web Store.3) Install and load Angry Birds. Should be premiered on the front page
4) Turn off your access to the internet.
5) Play Angry Birds.
It is $28 a month for 2 years at which time they replace the hardware for free. It is much less expensive than a Windows machine and it is continually upgraded,
Let's see. That's $672. I showed you a wide range of full laptops (far more powerful than your crapbook) that are under $400. You could replace them every 2 years, as well.
you always have the most current version of the applications, there is zero cost for maintenance or support,
The support argument doesn't fly. No company in its right mind is going to suddenly fire all their IT people and rely on Google to support the company.
it is an adequate machine for a large percentage users and it is faster, more protected and easy to use.
Faster? Other than boot time, just how in the world do you expect that something relying on data transfer over the Internet and an Atom processor to be faster than a full-blown laptop at anything but the most trivial tasks?
Adequate for a large percentage of users? That's your opinion. But considering the security issues, it's not likely. So where are all the big companies that have committed to using it?
Sounds like it might get a few people interested in trying it. In a corporate or academic environment they don't just go out and order thousands of machines sight unseen. They do a small sample test to see if it is going to meet their needs or not and if so they gradually roll it out. Why would any institution just take your word as gospel and dismiss the whole idea as bunk? Answer: They won't.
What a ridiculous argument. I never said they should simply take my word for it. I've given a lot of reasons why the crapbook is a lousy idea - and you haven't refuted a single one.
It’s amazing that you post such BS despite the truth constantly beating you in the face.Look at that! Accessed Chrome OS without being connected to any network. It’s almost like magic… or that there is local storage and file access that makes it useful offline like a regular computer. How fucking amazing!
Let's see. Google says that it requires the Internet access and you disagree. Who should we believe?
BTW, there's absolutely no way to know from that picture what you're claiming. You cold have loaded that screen and THEN disconnected the network adapter.
Sorry, I'll believe Google's public statements before someone who sounds a lot like a paid Google shill.
edit: Right from Google’s own page:Can’t wait to see how you spin that into Google is lying.
The difference, of course, is that I understand technology while you apparently don't.
Obviously, if you have a web app fully loaded on your system, that will continue to work if disconnected. But you won't be able to save anything to the cloud, won't be able to switch to anything new, and so on.
I gave you Google's own statement that it's not possible yet.
DIck,
Because I fear you might fall victim to the FUD jargosta is spreading do this simple test.
1) Run Chrome. The browser, not the OS.
2) Go to the Chrome Web Store.3) Install and load Angry Birds. Should be premiered on the front page
4) Turn off your access to the internet.
5) Play Angry Birds.
6. Explain to people like solipsism who apparently don't understand computers very well that there's a difference between an OS and a browser.
7. Try to understand why solipsism's best example of how an Enterprise IT department would work is Angry Birds.
Cool your jets psycho! Your arguments are a mess of business issues for a consumer users (consumers don't rent Chrome, they buy a machine) and consumer issues for business users (TCO for a business laptop is about $4-5000 over 3 years).
Funny, but when the issue was whether MacBooks were too expensive, people like you were denying numbers like that. Now that it's convenient, you are suddenly sure that the numbers are real.
You're using a bogus imaginary argument. IT costs for a company do not go to zero simply because they use a crapbook. They still need to develop custom apps. Still need to support user problems. Still need to train users. Still need to manage their servers. Still need to support the network infrastructure.
Claiming that IT support costs go to zero is absolute proof that you don't have ANY idea what you're talking about.
The crapbook (as you call it) is NOT more expensive than the equivalent Windows machine for an enterprise. Do you have no idea what the Enterprise Total Cost of Ownership for a Business PC is? MS estimated at Win 7 launch that it would save $90 per PC per year in support cost which they estimate as 10% savings. That implies $800-900 per year per PC just in local support costs. Add servers and backup farms no longer needed since you are renting Google's cloud, hundreds of $ of MS licenses and fees per PC per year and the "crapbook" or "craptop" (for the little desktop version) is WAAAAAY cheaper over 3 years - even adding $50 per user per year for GDocs and something for 20GB of cloud per user.
I see you're still ignoring the fact that I can buy a REAL laptop for much less than a crapbook. Oh, I get it - you want everyone to accept Google's inane proposition that no one will ever need an IT group again? Sorry, I'm not buying.
Economics are NOT EVEN CLOSE for A BUSINESS or Institution.
Stop pretending that the Chrome rental concept as expressed here so far is for individuals. If you want one, you buy the machine for netbook $s ($349-429) and pay next to nothing to Google since you get cloud and Docs basically for free or pennies as an individual. I expect the desktop to be $200 based on the Atom/ION net-tops already available.
I never said that it was for individuals. In fact, all of my arguments were specifically directed at business use.
And I'm not interested in your expectations of price. You can't even get the facts right - why should I pay any attention to your delusions?
As for your other crap...
1) Docs and Mail is already offline capable,
Not according to Google (see the quote above). Mail is only offline capable if you're running Outlook or something equivalent - and that won't work on a crapbook. Docs works the same way.
calendar will be eventually, many other web-apps will have offline modes (like several do today) and for the Business use case - THE NETWORK IS ALWAYS ON!!!
I see. So businesses are support to throw out their entire IT infrastructure and jump into using crapbooks simply because Google promises that some day they'll be useful?
You Google shills must really think that users are stupid.
2) Google does not mine corporate data. If you use GDocs already - millions do, then you're being mined - not feeling the pain so far - except the existential crisis of FUD from people like you.
Google admitted that they DO mine data from Google Apps. See above.
So who do we believe - a published statement from Google or the whining of a Google shill?
3) People adapt to superior workflow all the time. I do that for a living. Facebook was a fundamental shift in workflow in managing personal relationships as is all social media - people adjusted pretty well because it was better. Creating your files in the cloud, never having to save, backup. email (if public folder type things are done right) is better than create locally, save in some arcane structure only you understand, find it, email it, back it up, etc. etc.
Better in what way?
Security? No way
Reliability? Nope
Speed? Nope
I've given a lot of reasons why the crapbook is a lousy idea - and you haven't refuted a single one
There is no point in me continuing the discussion. You apparently have an agenda with your "crapbook" argument or you are suffering from extreme delusional paranoia disorder.
You obviously lack the imagination to see how most people would find a good browser useful for their computer needs. No use debating when you think the average family edits video every night.
There's an app store. Angry birds is already out.
So?
Everything that runs offline in your browser now (like Google docs) will run offline in Chrome OS....because it's a browser.
So...what's the upside? If the app runs & I use it the cloud doesn't matter...so what's the point. That google can now access everything I work on & data mine that for info?
1) It'll build up....like the app store for any platform. Just give it time.
This is wishful thinking. How much time is time?
2) It'll be part of a solution. Nobody intends for any user to solely use Chromebooks for everything. You aren't going to be doing CAD on a Chromebook.
Again, what's the point? to save a few bucks?
3) Cheaper than a iPad: http://www.engadget.com/2011/05/11/s...me-os-laptops/
And less useful. What stops apple or any other company from offering the same services with an iPad. Cloud storage is not exactly a killer idea.
4) Leasing is one option. That was offered directly by Google as a service to businesses and educational institutions. You can buy directly from a retailer if you wish. And it won't cost you $1000.
Because it's not worth $1000 dollars...you're comparing a snowflake & an avalanche & saying they are the same thing.
Because it's not worth $1000 dollars...you're comparing a snowflake & an avalanche & saying they are the same thing.
This is why you people are ridiculous idiots. $1000? the cheapest model so far is $349. One-third the stupid fucking claim you are making.
There is no point in me continuing the discussion. You apparently have an agenda with your "crapbook" argument or you are suffering from extreme delusional paranoia disorder.
I guess for you, there probably is no point in continuing the discussion. You haven't refuted a single one of my arguments.
And it's clever how you continue with the ad hominem arguments - further demonstrating that you have nothing intelligent to say.
This is why you people are ridiculous idiots. $1000? the cheapest model so far is $349. One-third the stupid fucking claim you are making.
Excuse me? The Google shills have been ranting on and on about how $28 per month for 36 months is such a great deal and businesses are going to be all over it like flies.
Do the flipping math.
Excuse me? The Google shills have been ranting on and on about how $28 per month for 36 months is such a great deal and businesses are going to be all over it like flies.
Do the flipping math.
Compared to $3000 for a leased device that only needs a web browser on the LAN, then that is a steal for the enterprise. For the consumer $349 will get you full-sized notebook and oversized-multitouch trackpad. You know this but you keep fudging the facts for some odd hatred of Google.