ITC rules HTC violating two of Apple's iPhone-related patents

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Comments

  • Reply 61 of 82
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by stelligent View Post


    These are very fundamental patents covering how a user interacts with a smartphone (or similar device), and consequently with a data network. It's not obvious how Google can code around this. Apple is also suing Motorola over the same patents.



    But don't forget HTC has an ace up its sleeve that it can use - it has acquired S3 Graphics, which has won the first round of judgement in suing Apple for infringement of its image compression patents.



    The whole point of patents was two-fold, to protect someones IP and foster innovation. Unfortunately the US patent system is crazy with triple damages for even looking at a patent. It needs overhauling to balance this once again and stop all the stupid tit-for-tat stuff.



    At the end of the day Apple has borrowed ideas from the best, Jobs has even said that publicly.
  • Reply 62 of 82
    d-ranged-range Posts: 396member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by kevin.mcintyre View Post


    All of them have plans, been planning for years



    Considering AT&T has been calling HSDPA+ '4G', many European countries already have partial 4G coverage, for over a year already. For example here, in the Netherlands, the 4 major cities have had HSDPA+ coverage with network speeds up to 28 Mbps, since somewhere in late 2009. Strictly speaking, HSDPA+ is '3G technology'.



    I always find it pretty entertaining how US folks are so obsessed over the acronyms put on the network technology they are using by the way. While they are all going nuts over '4G' today, in practice 3G network speeds over here have been faster than many of the US '4G' networks being rolled out. For example, I've been getting 7 Mbps (HSDPA) 3G speeds in major cities for over 2 years here already. All this time it has been the processing power of my phone that was the limiting factor for pulling in data, not the network speed.
  • Reply 63 of 82
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post


    "HTC will vigorously defend these two remaining patents through an appeal before the ITC commissioners who make the final decision," Grace Lei, general counsel for HTC, reportedly said.



    WTF? What kind of "lawyer" is this?



    HTC are not "defending" these two patents. They are challenging the patents. Apple are defending them. You'd think a high-profile lawyer for a huge corporation would get this language straight.
  • Reply 64 of 82
    zaim2zaim2 Posts: 45member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Prof. Peabody View Post


    Bull.



    Try reading more than just the title of the patent next time. These patents represent Apple inventions and are between 12 to 15 years old.



    I wish I didn't read past the title, then I could at least retain an illusion about the situation. I assume you're 100% gung-ho about Lodsys sueing app developers using the same system well?



    Quote:

    What's obvious *now* wasn't obvious when they were patented or someone else would have done it wouldn't they?



    Not necessarily. In case you've forgotten people exist outside the US and therefore outside the US patent system.



    Not sure what your argument is, as your general conclusion is about the same as mine. It's only the tone which differs. Its well within Apple's right to attempt to shut down HTC using their age-old Platform-independent cross-licensed with Microsoft patents (some of them even explictly include MS Windows). Where we differ is that it just doesn't sit well with me.





    Check out the table of HTC's infringements by FOSS patents:



    http://fosspatents.blogspot.com/2011...infringes.html



    So basically just by having a processor, screen, RAM and OS HTC are infringing. To me this is the equivalent of yanking out your opponents controller whilst playing a game.
  • Reply 65 of 82
    tallest skiltallest skil Posts: 43,388member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by kevin.mcintyre View Post


    All of them have plans, been planning for years



    So none of them have a real 4G network built yet, right?



    So what's the point of an LTE iPhone yet?
  • Reply 66 of 82
    nofeernofeer Posts: 2,427member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by guch20 View Post


    To the people gloating about this: None of us are patent lawyers or judges, and none of us really have any clue what any of this means in the long run, but let's just stop with the talk about Android being in trouble somehow. This isn't going to stop Android from spreading, and it's certainly not going to stop companies from using Android.



    Realistically, we can expect some kind of payment and/or cross-licensing deal to happen, and that will be the end of it. Android will continue to operate as a cheap, utilitarian, good-enough, wannabe rip-off of iOS, and Google will continue to rake in billions by selling the information they gather from people's texts, emails, searches, and map queries.



    This changes nothing.



    bingo, you get the pony, great summary
  • Reply 67 of 82
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by NOFEER View Post


    bingo, you get the pony, great summary



    Shit!! He gets a pony??!! Why didn't someone tell me there would be a prize for the best summary?! Damn! Did I miss a memo!



    [ ... and I too thought it was a great summary. ]
  • Reply 68 of 82
    tbelltbell Posts: 3,146member
    I doubt you know what the posters on this site do for a living. With that said, you are correct that none of us likely know the final outcome. Apple can appeal any patents that were ruled as not being violated by HTC. HTC can appeal the two it is claimed to have violated. Further, Apple recently filed a new complaint concerning 5 new iPhone related patents.



    If HTC is ultimately found to have violated Apple's patent(s) after the appeal process, Android may still continue to spread, but HTC will have to stop using the patented ideas if Apple doesn't give HTC a license. Otherwise, HTC's products using the idea(s) will be seized at the border. That is undebatable. That no doubt would make Samsung and Motorola nervous.



    What is interesting is how Apple will respond. Generally, if the plaintiff gets the upper hand at the ITC, you will quickly see a settlement in favor of the plaintiff. However, it is unclear if Apple is willing to settle for a licensing fee or will it take a riskier approach and continue to push for the ban on imported products. If the ITC ultimately rules in Apple's favor and the matter isn't settled, HTC's offending products will be banned as that is the whole purpose of the ITC.





    Right now, HTC undoubtedly is likely willing to pay Apple licensing fees (as HTC is doing with Microsoft). I think Apple would be smart to take it. If Apple rejects receiving licensing fees, and ultimately loses, it will take some of the wind out of its conflict with Motorola and Samsung. Further, if HTC is successful with any patents claims against Apple with the ITC, Apple would have more to loss if the iPhone was banned from the US.



    It might cost more to build in the US, but doing so would shut these ITC battles down.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by guch20 View Post


    To the people gloating about this: None of us are patent lawyers or judges, and none of us really have any clue what any of this means in the long run, but let's just stop with the talk about Android being in trouble somehow. This isn't going to stop Android from spreading, and it's certainly not going to stop companies from using Android.



    Realistically, we can expect some kind of payment and/or cross-licensing deal to happen, and that will be the end of it. Android will continue to operate as a cheap, utilitarian, good-enough, wannabe rip-off of iOS, and Google will continue to rake in billions by selling the information they gather from people's texts, emails, searches, and map queries.



    This changes nothing.



  • Reply 69 of 82
    esoomesoom Posts: 155member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by guch20 View Post


    To the people gloating about this: None of us are patent lawyers or judges, and none of us really have any clue what any of this means in the long run, but let's just stop with the talk about Android being in trouble somehow. This isn't going to stop Android from spreading, and it's certainly not going to stop companies from using Android.



    Realistically, we can expect some kind of payment and/or cross-licensing deal to happen, and that will be the end of it. Android will continue to operate as a cheap, utilitarian, good-enough, wannabe rip-off of iOS, and Google will continue to rake in billions by selling the information they gather from people's texts, emails, searches, and map queries.



    This changes nothing.



    Wrong, it changes everything.



    Operating margin on Andriod smartphones is 10-13%, on Android tablets, it's 2-3%. MS is already getting $5/phone from HTC, they'll eventually collect it from every manufacturer.



    Throw in the close relationship between Nokia and MS, and we can look forward to Nokia going after Android as well.



    It won't take much to make Android too expensive for the manufacturers to produce.



    There are 49 different suits active against Android, including Oracle's. Android will die the death of a thousand cuts...
  • Reply 70 of 82
    guch20guch20 Posts: 173member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by TBell View Post


    I doubt you know what the posters on this site do for a living. With that said, you are correct that none of us likely know the final outcome. Apple can appeal any patents that were ruled as not being violated by HTC. HTC can appeal the two it is claimed to have violated. Further, Apple recently filed a new complaint concerning 5 new iPhone related patents.



    If HTC is ultimately found to have violated Apple's patent(s) after the appeal process, Android may still continue to spread, but HTC will have to stop using the patented ideas if Apple doesn't give HTC a license. Otherwise, HTC's products using the idea(s) will be seized at the border. That is undebatable. That no doubt would make Samsung and Motorola nervous.



    What is interesting is how Apple will respond. Generally, if the plaintiff gets the upper hand at the ITC, you will quickly see a settlement in favor of the plaintiff. However, it is unclear if Apple is willing to settle for a licensing fee or will it take a riskier approach and continue to push for the ban on imported products. If the ITC ultimately rules in Apple's favor and the matter isn't settled, HTC's offending products will be banned as that is the whole purpose of the ITC.





    Right now, HTC undoubtedly is likely willing to pay Apple licensing fees (as HTC is doing with Microsoft). I think Apple would be smart to take it. If Apple rejects receiving licensing fees, and ultimately loses, it will take some of the wind out of its conflict with Motorola and Samsung. Further, if HTC is successful with any patents claims against Apple with the ITC, Apple would have more to loss if the iPhone was banned from the US.



    It might cost more to build in the US, but doing so would shut these ITC battles down.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Esoom View Post


    Wrong, it changes everything.



    Operating margin on Andriod smartphones is 10-13%, on Android tablets, it's 2-3%. MS is already getting $5/phone from HTC, they'll eventually collect it from every manufacturer.



    Throw in the close relationship between Nokia and MS, and we can look forward to Nokia going after Android as well.



    It won't take much to make Android too expensive for the manufacturers to produce.



    There are 49 different suits active against Android, including Oracle's. Android will die the death of a thousand cuts...



    This is all just wishful thinking. I'd be willing to bet that nobody here would be able to come up with a recent patent case related to electronics that resulted in a product being banned from import. It just doesn't happen.



    What does happen is that the cases get settled via payment or cross=licensing and business moves on. Even if Android really does have 49 different suits lined up against it (though I don't generally accept a bunch of numbers being thrown around without links posted to prove the numbers are real), it's immaterial if the companies involved find they each have patents the others need, which they likely will since the patent landscape is such a murky mess.



    Some other company will always have at least one patent you need if you're both in the same business, so they'll just wind up cross-licensing, and all this will have been for nothing.



    There is absolutely no reason to think anything different will happen in this case, nor is there reason to honestly believe Android is going away due to any court case. I'm so certain, I'd stake my life on it.
  • Reply 71 of 82
    esoomesoom Posts: 155member
    Everyone forgets about NTC & RIM....
  • Reply 72 of 82
    cloudgazercloudgazer Posts: 2,161member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by guch20 View Post


    This is all just wishful thinking. I'd be willing to bet that nobody here would be able to come up with a recent patent case related to electronics that resulted in a product being banned from import. It just doesn't happen.



    Injunctions against importation or production do indeed happen.



    http://www.patentlyo.com/patent/2006...tion_gran.html

    http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20070607/194145.shtml



    You just lost your bet, how much was it for?



    Quote:

    There is absolutely no reason to think anything different will happen in this case, nor is there reason to honestly believe Android is going away due to any court case. I'm so certain, I'd stake my life on it.



    Please don't kill yourself just cause you were wrong
  • Reply 73 of 82
    macrulezmacrulez Posts: 2,455member
    deleted
  • Reply 74 of 82
    anantksundaramanantksundaram Posts: 20,398member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by MacRulez View Post


    Has me wondering why Google didn't patent these:



    5 things Apple borrowed from Android for iOS 5

    http://www.betanews.com/joewilcox/ar...S-5/1307414477







    Do you know (and if so, can you provide any evidence) that it was Google's to patent, or is it just another one of your endlessly passive-aggressive anti-Apple missives?



    Sheesh.
  • Reply 75 of 82
    tzeshantzeshan Posts: 2,351member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post


    Do you know (and if so, can you provide any evidence) that it was Google's to patent, or is it just another one of your endlessly passive-aggressive anti-Apple missives?



    Sheesh.



    I doubt Google can patent these things. Like Cloud Sync, MobileMac has been doing this for years even longer than Google. So who should have the patent?
  • Reply 76 of 82
    cloudgazercloudgazer Posts: 2,161member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by MacRulez View Post


    Has me wondering why Google didn't patent these:



    5 things Apple borrowed from Android for iOS 5

    http://www.betanews.com/joewilcox/ar...S-5/1307414477







    The only plausibly patentable feature there would have been the notifications system - the others all had huge amounts of prior art. As to why google didn't, I guess you'd have to ask them. They have around 700 patents so it's not like they never patent things like this, so quite plausibly there was prior art there too that I'm just not aware of.
  • Reply 77 of 82
    cloudgazercloudgazer Posts: 2,161member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Zaim2 View Post


    So it's basically just Apple browbeating HTC with patents necessary for the creation of any modern competitive OS, not anything specific to iOS innovation. Well within their rights, but it's a bit too Microsoft-esque for me to get behind.



    It's unclear. At first blush the '721 patent is devastating and applies to any distributed object system, but that's clearly not true - as even the patent acknowledges distributed smalltalk existed already. It must therefore be more limited, and it's not clear exactly what that limitation is to a mere technologist such as myself.



    At any rate, it's really hard to get behind any software patent ever. They are the dark side of the IP force.
  • Reply 78 of 82
    mdriftmeyermdriftmeyer Posts: 7,503member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by cloudgazer View Post


    It's unclear. At first blush the '721 patent is devastating and applies to any distributed object system, but that's clearly not true - as even the patent acknowledges distributed smalltalk existed already. It must therefore be more limited, and it's not clear exactly what that limitation is to a mere technologist such as myself.



    At any rate, it's really hard to get behind any software patent ever. They are the dark side of the IP force.



    NeXT has a series of Portable Distributed Objects Patents and so did Apple's Taligent. Smalltalk generically having Distributed Objects is not in question.
  • Reply 79 of 82
    stelligentstelligent Posts: 2,680member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Esoom View Post


    Wrong, it changes everything.



    Operating margin on Andriod smartphones is 10-13%, on Android tablets, it's 2-3%. MS is already getting $5/phone from HTC, they'll eventually collect it from every manufacturer.



    Throw in the close relationship between Nokia and MS, and we can look forward to Nokia going after Android as well.



    It won't take much to make Android too expensive for the manufacturers to produce.



    There are 49 different suits active against Android, including Oracle's. Android will die the death of a thousand cuts...



    This is (potentially) informative. Can you provide a link to a credible source where it states the operating margins of Android smartphones and tablets? By credible sources, I am sure you'd agree that they would have to be the companies themselves.



    Isn't Apple the company that is sued for IP infringement more than any other? I might be wrong, but it would be good to know that Apple too is dying the death of (more than 49) lawsuits?
  • Reply 80 of 82
    cloudgazercloudgazer Posts: 2,161member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by stelligent View Post


    This is (potentially) informative. Can you provide a link to a credible source where it states the operating margins of Android smartphones and tablets? By credible sources, I am sure you'd agree that they would have to be the companies themselves.



    I went with HTC since they're the closest to a pure android shop these days, they do have WP7 but they don't have a big feature phone business messing up the numbers. HTC's gross margins are 29.3% and operating margin is 15.8%.



    http://www.corpasia.net/taiwan/2498/...6FfTNn6DLl.pdf



    Don't think there's any evidence on tablet margins, lets face it so far android makers won't even tell us how many tablets they've even sold!.



    One thing that higher license fees on android would almost certainly do is completely kill off Moto & S-E though, they're barely profitable in good quarters as it is.
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