Does the West have a right to impose its values on other cultures?
Huh - I was unaware that fundamental issues of right and wrong were "morals". Nice dodge.
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Where did our (Western) sense of morality come from?
Again, nice smoke and mirrors.
I always love it when people try to argue that crap like socialism can work and in the same breath that capitalism is evil.
Human nature and economics dictate the rise or fall of a society. You can not have a society when there is an "every man for himself" mentality. It breaks down.
I do have to hand it to China's leaders - they may have been slow to warm to the importance of stamping out crap like this, but again thievery creates uncertainty and uncertainty is bad for business. In a smart society, the problem becomes self-correcting as in this story with customers becoming outraged and demanding accountability.
I don't think not being ripped off has anything to do with "western morals" - unless you are implying that the west is somehow morally superior and we should take pity on the heathen Chinese or something?
Are you sure the Chinese laws are written as such?
Even if the laws weren't written as such the Chinese consumers obviously had a problem with being deceived - as I believe any consumer anywhere in the world would.
Are you sure the Chinese laws are written as such?
The Chinese are shocked, shocked I tell you, to find counterfeiting going on within their borders by their boarders, Rick.....
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Originally Posted by k2director
Look at how China has treated its citizens in the last 100 years and you won't be pedaling your "morality is relative" crap and asking dumb doe-eyed questions about whether we have the right to "impose" our values on China.
Let me reverse your question: Chinese values led to the death of tens of millions of Chinese citizens during that little snake Mao's pathetic Cultural Revolution. Does that mean it's okay for anyone to kill tens of millions of Chinese, because that's the "Chinese way", and god forbid we should ever question someone's else's values?
I'll grant you all those inhumanities as totally representative of the worst of human behavior, long as you look equally unblinkingly at how the current US basically stole the best part of the continent from those already occupying it - in a series of deliberate acts that took centuries to carry out - and which also caused the deaths (and much more suffering, some of which continues) of millions of native Americans.
Oh, and that slavery biz stuff too. Almost forgot that one.
And then we can both high-five over the defeat of fascism in 1945. Or something.
Just watch yer glass house when throwin' rocks is all I'm sayin'.....
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Originally Posted by anantksundaram
IP law has been around in some form or the other in the West at least since the 13th century.
Has it occurred to anyone here to pay the Chinese royalties for gunpowder, paper, and ceramics?
Or the inventors of the Hndu-Arabic number system??
Out of all the minutiæ you pseudo-intellectuals have been spouting, this is the only paragraph worth anything.
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Originally Posted by nvidia2008
...in the 21st century in a globalised economy with multiple international treaties and international systems of business. Not to mention globally accepted notions of basic human rights. We have to work together as a species because that's a major way to survive and improve our lives. It's also an inevitability with the rise of the Internet and widespread travel and migration, everyone is exposed so much to other cultures, most people naturally starts to seek common ground and understanding...
What they're doing isn't wrong because WE SAY it's wrong.
"You have to understand that China is the pirating capital of the world. They just don't have a moral/ethical problem with copying". I agree, but that doesn't make it right.
So it takes costumer complaints to stop forgeries/piracy? Not that it's illegal?
We've gone through illegality and China's inability (or perhaps unwillingness) to fight (or perhaps recognize) intellectual property theft in this thread already.
I take this to be inspirational that one small blog post -- or news tip -- can create a global media firestorm. Sometimes this is good. I think of many contemporary issues in this light. Getting an "angle" on an issue can create a sound byte that changes the world. Gen Electric paying no taxes ?! Pure gold. Fake Apple store by Chinese fakers? More pure gold. This isn't news; China has been violating every copyright for 15+ years. But it's the presentation that was brilliant. That type of cleverness could have torn the balls off GW Bush's administration in 2003 during the Iraq invasion over nothing. Just mentioning a point of view.
Your intelligent, considered observation has no place here. Sadly.
What they're doing isn't wrong because WE SAY it's wrong.
It's wrong because IT'S WRONG.
Wrong. There is no objective right and wrong. What is generally considered "right" and "wrong" is determined by general consensus due to common biological and cultural factors. It is wrong precisely because we say it is wrong, and it is our right to project our moral judgements on others if their "values" are infringing on our rights. That is exactly the principle our penal system is based on. When you live in a community (even a global one), you must respect the rights and desires of others if you want to sustain a mutually beneficial relationship.
Wrong. There is no objective right and wrong. What is generally considered "right" and "wrong" is determined by general consensus due to common biological and cultural factors. It is wrong precisely because we say it is wrong, and it is our right to project our moral judgements on others if their "values" are infringing on our rights. That is exactly the principle our penal system is based on. When you live in a community (even a global one), you must respect the rights and desires of others if you want to sustain a mutually beneficial relationship.
Yep, murder is acceptable in some societies (if you're a gangster of course).
Yep, murder is acceptable in some societies (if you're a gangster of course).
That doesn't mean there's no objective right and wrong, it might just mean that particular society hasn't discovered it yet.
Same as, just because there is a primitive society somewhere that still prays to their Gods to make their crops grow, doesn't mean there's no such thing as science, it just means they haven't discovered it yet.
That doesn't mean there's no objective right and wrong, it might just mean that particular society hasn't discovered it yet.
Same as, just because there is a primitive society somewhere that still prays to their Gods to make their crops grow, doesn't mean there's no such thing as science, it just means they haven't discovered it yet.
It's objectively "wrong" to break the rules (contract or law).
It's objectively "wrong" to break the rules (contract or law).
And the rules are just arbitrary? I don't hold to that. It's just not that kind of universe. And I don't mean anything superstitious by that, quite the opposite, I mean that everything is patterns and mechanics and cause and effect. So whenever someone insists something is arbitrary or culturally relative I just cock an eyebrow.
Look at how China has treated its citizens in the last 100 years and you won't be pedaling your "morality is relative" crap and asking dumb doe-eyed questions about whether we have the right to "impose" our values on China.
Let me reverse your question: Chinese values led to the death of tens of millions of Chinese citizens during that little snake Mao's pathetic Cultural Revolution. Does that mean it's okay for anyone to kill tens of millions of Chinese, because that's the "Chinese way", and god forbid we should ever question someone's else's values?
His questions are legit. If China has no IP precedent, and is still ruled by the communist party, it may be in our best interests to turn them into a capitalist democracy, but will they accept it? For other issues and this, may we create new enemies, perhaps a new terror type threat?
The US has profited off of China's labor internationally, but not much directly off of the Chinese population. If we can't, is it in our best interest to eventually limit the biz we do with them if they manipulate currency in their favor, steal private IP, and hack our govt for military and state secrets?
If it's going to be one sided in their favor we'd better turn them our way or limit our investment.
That doesn't mean there's no objective right and wrong, it might just mean that particular society hasn't discovered it yet.
Ahh but even when they have discovered the 'objective right and wrong' they have no way to tell that it's really the objective one do they?
So how is the 'objective' morality in any way objective? At best you could argue that there is an 'optimal' morality, which is optimal in some utilitarian sense and even that is unclear - optimal morality may well depend on environment.
The problem with the belief in an 'objective right and wrong' is that the people who believe in it invariably think that their standards are the objective ones and everybody else is merely misguided.
And the rules are just arbitrary? I don't hold to that. It's just not that kind of universe. And I don't mean anything superstitious by that, quite the opposite, I mean that everything is patterns and mechanics and cause and effect. So whenever someone insists something is arbitrary or culturally relative I just cock an eyebrow.
The universe is full of arbitrary things, in fact it's a fundamental part of modern theoretical physics.
Comments
Does the West have a right to impose its values on other cultures?
Huh - I was unaware that fundamental issues of right and wrong were "morals". Nice dodge.
Where did our (Western) sense of morality come from?
Again, nice smoke and mirrors.
I always love it when people try to argue that crap like socialism can work and in the same breath that capitalism is evil.
Human nature and economics dictate the rise or fall of a society. You can not have a society when there is an "every man for himself" mentality. It breaks down.
I do have to hand it to China's leaders - they may have been slow to warm to the importance of stamping out crap like this, but again thievery creates uncertainty and uncertainty is bad for business. In a smart society, the problem becomes self-correcting as in this story with customers becoming outraged and demanding accountability.
I don't think not being ripped off has anything to do with "western morals" - unless you are implying that the west is somehow morally superior and we should take pity on the heathen Chinese or something?
Are you sure the Chinese laws are written as such?
Even if the laws weren't written as such the Chinese consumers obviously had a problem with being deceived - as I believe any consumer anywhere in the world would.
Are you sure the Chinese laws are written as such?
The Chinese are shocked, shocked I tell you, to find counterfeiting going on within their borders by their boarders, Rick.....
Look at how China has treated its citizens in the last 100 years and you won't be pedaling your "morality is relative" crap and asking dumb doe-eyed questions about whether we have the right to "impose" our values on China.
Let me reverse your question: Chinese values led to the death of tens of millions of Chinese citizens during that little snake Mao's pathetic Cultural Revolution. Does that mean it's okay for anyone to kill tens of millions of Chinese, because that's the "Chinese way", and god forbid we should ever question someone's else's values?
I'll grant you all those inhumanities as totally representative of the worst of human behavior, long as you look equally unblinkingly at how the current US basically stole the best part of the continent from those already occupying it - in a series of deliberate acts that took centuries to carry out - and which also caused the deaths (and much more suffering, some of which continues) of millions of native Americans.
Oh, and that slavery biz stuff too. Almost forgot that one.
And then we can both high-five over the defeat of fascism in 1945. Or something.
Just watch yer glass house when throwin' rocks is all I'm sayin'.....
IP law has been around in some form or the other in the West at least since the 13th century.
Has it occurred to anyone here to pay the Chinese royalties for gunpowder, paper, and ceramics?
Or the inventors of the Hndu-Arabic number system??
...in the 21st century in a globalised economy with multiple international treaties and international systems of business. Not to mention globally accepted notions of basic human rights. We have to work together as a species because that's a major way to survive and improve our lives. It's also an inevitability with the rise of the Internet and widespread travel and migration, everyone is exposed so much to other cultures, most people naturally starts to seek common ground and understanding...
What they're doing isn't wrong because WE SAY it's wrong.
It's wrong because IT'S WRONG.
So it takes costumer complaints to stop forgeries/piracy? Not that it's illegal?
We've gone through illegality and China's inability (or perhaps unwillingness) to fight (or perhaps recognize) intellectual property theft in this thread already.
The fans are probably fake too.
In China, even the fanbois are fake.
Apple needs to have 300 Apple Stores in China within 5 yrs.
I take this to be inspirational that one small blog post -- or news tip -- can create a global media firestorm. Sometimes this is good. I think of many contemporary issues in this light. Getting an "angle" on an issue can create a sound byte that changes the world. Gen Electric paying no taxes ?! Pure gold. Fake Apple store by Chinese fakers? More pure gold. This isn't news; China has been violating every copyright for 15+ years. But it's the presentation that was brilliant. That type of cleverness could have torn the balls off GW Bush's administration in 2003 during the Iraq invasion over nothing. Just mentioning a point of view.
Your intelligent, considered observation has no place here. Sadly.
What they're doing isn't wrong because WE SAY it's wrong.
It's wrong because IT'S WRONG.
Wrong. There is no objective right and wrong. What is generally considered "right" and "wrong" is determined by general consensus due to common biological and cultural factors. It is wrong precisely because we say it is wrong, and it is our right to project our moral judgements on others if their "values" are infringing on our rights. That is exactly the principle our penal system is based on. When you live in a community (even a global one), you must respect the rights and desires of others if you want to sustain a mutually beneficial relationship.
There is no objective right and wrong.
Wait, how do you live?
Wrong. There is no objective right and wrong. What is generally considered "right" and "wrong" is determined by general consensus due to common biological and cultural factors. It is wrong precisely because we say it is wrong, and it is our right to project our moral judgements on others if their "values" are infringing on our rights. That is exactly the principle our penal system is based on. When you live in a community (even a global one), you must respect the rights and desires of others if you want to sustain a mutually beneficial relationship.
Yep, murder is acceptable in some societies (if you're a gangster of course).
Yep, murder is acceptable in some societies (if you're a gangster of course).
That doesn't mean there's no objective right and wrong, it might just mean that particular society hasn't discovered it yet.
Same as, just because there is a primitive society somewhere that still prays to their Gods to make their crops grow, doesn't mean there's no such thing as science, it just means they haven't discovered it yet.
That doesn't mean there's no objective right and wrong, it might just mean that particular society hasn't discovered it yet.
Same as, just because there is a primitive society somewhere that still prays to their Gods to make their crops grow, doesn't mean there's no such thing as science, it just means they haven't discovered it yet.
It's objectively "wrong" to break the rules (contract or law).
It's objectively "wrong" to break the rules (contract or law).
And the rules are just arbitrary? I don't hold to that. It's just not that kind of universe. And I don't mean anything superstitious by that, quite the opposite, I mean that everything is patterns and mechanics and cause and effect. So whenever someone insists something is arbitrary or culturally relative I just cock an eyebrow.
Look at how China has treated its citizens in the last 100 years and you won't be pedaling your "morality is relative" crap and asking dumb doe-eyed questions about whether we have the right to "impose" our values on China.
Let me reverse your question: Chinese values led to the death of tens of millions of Chinese citizens during that little snake Mao's pathetic Cultural Revolution. Does that mean it's okay for anyone to kill tens of millions of Chinese, because that's the "Chinese way", and god forbid we should ever question someone's else's values?
His questions are legit. If China has no IP precedent, and is still ruled by the communist party, it may be in our best interests to turn them into a capitalist democracy, but will they accept it? For other issues and this, may we create new enemies, perhaps a new terror type threat?
The US has profited off of China's labor internationally, but not much directly off of the Chinese population. If we can't, is it in our best interest to eventually limit the biz we do with them if they manipulate currency in their favor, steal private IP, and hack our govt for military and state secrets?
If it's going to be one sided in their favor we'd better turn them our way or limit our investment.
That doesn't mean there's no objective right and wrong, it might just mean that particular society hasn't discovered it yet.
Ahh but even when they have discovered the 'objective right and wrong' they have no way to tell that it's really the objective one do they?
So how is the 'objective' morality in any way objective? At best you could argue that there is an 'optimal' morality, which is optimal in some utilitarian sense and even that is unclear - optimal morality may well depend on environment.
The problem with the belief in an 'objective right and wrong' is that the people who believe in it invariably think that their standards are the objective ones and everybody else is merely misguided.
And the rules are just arbitrary? I don't hold to that. It's just not that kind of universe. And I don't mean anything superstitious by that, quite the opposite, I mean that everything is patterns and mechanics and cause and effect. So whenever someone insists something is arbitrary or culturally relative I just cock an eyebrow.
The universe is full of arbitrary things, in fact it's a fundamental part of modern theoretical physics.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spontan...metry_breaking