Why are the ethics and morals in China different than here?
Does the West have a right to impose its values on other cultures?
Where did our (Western) sense of morality come from?
Sir, before these thoughts, I'd want you to ponder over the morality and ethics of these:
Within the last century, European nations colonized countries in Asia and Africa, draining their wealth, imposing draconian rule, killing entire populations, etc. For example, India's share of world's GDP was about 23% when the Europeans arrived at its shores in the 18th century; it was less then 1% when they left in the 20th. FWIW, even our country (USA) wouldn't be here if Europeans had not massacred the natives and their bison. Even the US had colonies, like Phillipines.
Within the last sixty years, after the retrenchment of colonization, the Ottoman Empire was chopped by the Brits into countries that didn't exist before (Iraq, Kuwait, etc.), and countries created anew (Israel out of Palestine). All this is the cause of current ferment. Also, the partition of India and Pakistan was in a hurry, because the Brits were in a rush to leave. The toll of human lives lost in this partition is the biggest in the history of the world because of migration.
Within the last fifty years, we, at the instigation of the Brits (again!), toppled the democratically elected regime of Iraq because it nationalized the oil industry, and put in our stooge, the Shah. The reason was that British Petroleum (now BP) wanted to make money in this newly discovered commodity.
Within the last decade, we have invaded a country (Iraq) on false pretence. Yes, Saddam was a bad man, and committed atrocities, but there are so many bad men we are in bed with like the Sauds and leaders of China. Have you seen a photograph of Bush holding the hand of the Emir of Saudi Arabia?
To this day, we elect to look the other way while one country (Pakistan), which is the root of all terrorist evil, develops nuclear weapons and instead we triple their aid for five years?
Once you find the morally/ethics in the situations I've laid out, I'll be happy to ponder and answer your set.
Within the last sixty years, after the retrenchment of colonization, the Ottoman Empire was chopped by the Brits into countries that didn't exist before (Iraq, Kuwait), and countries created anew (Israel out of Palestine).
Hmm, the way that's phrased you seem to be implying that Britain created Israel the way it created Kuwait and Iraq. That is far from the truth.
From wiki:
After World War II, Britain found itself in fierce conflict with the Jewish community, as the Haganah joined Irgun and Lehi in an armed struggle against British rule. At the same time, thousands of Jewish Holocaust survivors and refugees from Europe sought a new life in Palestine, but were turned away or rounded up and placed in detention camps by the British. In 1947, the British government announced it would withdraw from the Mandate of Palestine, stating it was unable to arrive at a solution acceptable to both Arabs and Jews.
It is written law that the USA has a debt ceiling but that has no meaning, the only thing that matters is the current meaning of the party. Which is to get reelected, as opposed to governing.
LOL
Well said, my friend.
Thankfully, the USD is still the world's reserve currency. All we need to do is print a few more billion, just like the Fed did several months ago.
Absolutely. Show me a valid patent for gunpowder, paper, and ceramics and you should be able to get people to pay. Or show me a valid trademark that someone is violating.
Hint: intellectual property rights for those things was lost ages ago. Thanks for proving that you have no concept of intellectual property.
Show me a valid piece of IP in China for Apple's store design.
What 'contract'? How does your naive worldview address third-party externalities imposed by the contacting parties (i.e., parties outside the direct contract who are affected by the contract)?
Sir, before these thoughts, I'd want you to ponder over the morality and ethics of these:
Within the last century, European nations colonized countries in Asia and Africa, draining their wealth, imposing draconian rule, killing entire populations, etc. For example, India's share of world's GDP was about 23% when the Europeans arrived at its shores in the 18th century; it was less then 1% when they left in the 20th. FWIW, even our country (USA) wouldn't be here if Europeans had not massacred the natives and their bison. Even the US had colonies, like Phillipines.
Within the last sixty years, after the retrenchment of colonization, the Ottoman Empire was chopped by the Brits into countries that didn't exist before (Iraq, Kuwait, etc.), and countries created anew (Israel out of Palestine). All this is the cause of current ferment. Also, the partition of India and Pakistan was in a hurry, because the Brits were in a rush to leave. The toll of human lives lost in this partition is the biggest in the history of the world because of migration.
Within the last fifty years, we, at the instigation of the Brits (again!), toppled the democratically elected regime of Iraq because it nationalized the oil industry, and put in our stooge, the Shah. The reason was that British Petroleum (now BP) wanted to make money in this newly discovered commodity.
Within the last decade, we have invaded a country (Iraq) on false pretence. Yes, Saddam was a bad man, and committed atrocities, but there are so many bad men we are in bed with like the Sauds and leaders of China. Have you seen a photograph of Bush holding the hand of the Emir of Saudi Arabia?
To this day, we elect to look the other way while one country (Pakistan), which is the root of all terrorist evil, develops nuclear weapons and instead we triple their aid for five years?
Once you find the morally/ethics in the situations I've laid out, I'll be happy to ponder and answer your set.
Peace.
Some very good thoughts there! Worth reposting in full.
What 'contract'? How does your naive worldview address third-party externalities imposed by the contacting parties (i.e., parties outside the direct contract who are affected by the contract)?
How do you NOT get the receipt the instant you purchase your item? Even our Amish grocer gives receipts. They're printed from a cash register hooked to a car battery, for heaven's sake.
Apple Stores always give you the option to have your receipt emailed to you instead of printing one right there at the store. That's how you do NOT get the receipt the instant you purchase your item.
The fake Apple Store probably imitated this practice but not for the sake of customer convenience but for the sake of tax evasion.
Really! Last time I checked it took an act of Congress to change the ceiling, but I appreciate you explaining to me that this is either wrong, or it has no meaning that! Guess I am also wrong in the belief that the Congress was elected by the american people.
Nah, you miss my point.
The point is that "law" is variable and modified by the party to suit their ends, which irrelevent of being China or the USA is not so much about good governance but about staying in power or suiting their mates.
Surely no educated or intelligent person who has spent time observing the actions of our elected non-representatives thinks that they operate much differently no matter the imaginary governance system they operate in.
Laws are governance, politics is not governance, it is politics.
As for China and its dodgy anti humanitarian ways (which have nothing to do with a fake shop), there are no right nations only righteous ones. America, Australia, Britain, whoever have killed plenty of their own people and others, allowed terrible sadness.
It is best to stay on topic. My point is that China's cultural ways are not so bad and perhaps actually more a free market and that while you can slip money under a table to grease the right official there, you can do the same here, wherever here is for you. Here though you have no free market, you have a codified system of bribes and kickbacks to have the right to be in business.
Pay the inspector or get shut down, sounds the same as pay the protection racket or get shut down.
Trying to do something that strains the local ordinances, well if you are in China or USA or wherever, then knowing the guy in local government is going to grease that wheel, throwing a few dollars and a good lunch will help more and being their family is best.
Get off the high horse of cultural superiority, we are all humans doing what humans do.
I use my brain to decide what will produce "good" results or "bad" results. Not in a simple narrow focused way mind you, but in a complex and considered way that has been refined based on much thought and observation, and taking into account second and third order effects of actions. Believe it or not, you don't need someone else to tell you how to live to be a decent person. It certainly can help at times, but it's best if you can eventually make it your own. I have found this to be more effective than trying to live by some objective moral code, but it takes a lot of effort and may not be for everyone.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ascii
That doesn't mean there's no objective right and wrong, it might just mean that particular society hasn't discovered it yet.
I don't mean there is no reality or truth, just that I don't believe in a preexisting "right" and "wrong" external to and independent from our physical reality. That is why I disagee with the person who said "it's wrong because it's wrong". That judgement must be justified and explained, based on some criteria, not just stated to be inherently and eternally true. This criteria will (unless religious) inevitably depend on some property of our physical existence.
For instance, (almost) all humans have a strong desire not to be killed or allow their loved ones to be killed, and even have empathy for others in general - therefore killing is "wrong" except in certain circumstances (to avoid more killing for instance). Those who do kill without just cause will likely suffer consequences from society. These are the same reasons I believe killing is "wrong", just not in the objectively moral sense. It just has terrible consequences all around, and I think there are almost always better options.
Right and wrong are "emergent" properties of our existence, that is they are a result of the particular physical makeup of our world. I suppose if an entire population didn't feel any emotionally connection to others or care whether we died, then murder wouldn't be "wrong" for them. But the rest of us sure as hell would impose our morality on them, and they would either comply, live separately, or kill or be killed.
Some amazingly blinkered comments here based on a perception of China which is outdated. The country is trying very hard to escape from its "copying" culture. Anyone who is in the business of exporting from China will know this. As expected the government in China have taken swift action to resolve this specific situation.
Show me a valid piece of IP in China for Apple's store design.
The entire look of the store is Apple's trademark. Not to mention the Apple logo and the Apple name (as applied to computers). And the Apple trademark IS registered in China:
So stop pretending you know something when you clearly don't.
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram
Until then, shut up with your silly arrogance.
Arrogance? Sorry, but you are the one who is being arrogant - AND ignorant. I have about 2 decades of experience doing business in China involving products covered by trademark and patents. What is YOUR experience?
Apple Stores always give you the option to have your receipt emailed to you instead of printing one right there at the store. That's how you do NOT get the receipt the instant you purchase your item.
The fake Apple Store probably imitated this practice but not for the sake of customer convenience but for the sake of tax evasion.
So you're saying they only offered e-mailed receipts that were never e-mailed? Them offering only digital versions is the only way I can see people having any right to complain.
Some amazingly blinkered comments here based on a perception of China which is outdated. The country is trying very hard to escape from its "copying" culture. Anyone who is in the business of exporting from China will know this. As expected the government in China have taken swift action to resolve this specific situation.
No, they haven't. They only closed the ones who aren't paying business taxes. The ones who are registered with the government are still in operation.
I do business in China. LOTS of business. And while the situation is improving slightly, it has a LONG, LONG, LONG way to go before intellectual property will be valued there enough for me to trust anything important to the country.
I do business in China. LOTS of business. And while the situation is improving slightly, it has a LONG, LONG, LONG way to go before intellectual property will be valued there enough for me to trust anything important to the country.
Capitalism in China is in the Wild Wild West (East?) stage. Somewhat similar to where we were in the late 19th Century. Robber barons everywhere. I wonder if the current state of government there will permit the appearance of a Teddy Roosevelt type to come in and clean house.
Their yuan is not pegged to any currency. The yuan has appreciated 25% in the past few years. If the yuan goes up more, that will only mean they can buy more oil and natural resources more cheaply, thereby increasing their competitiveness.
What do you mean by their yuan is 1/7 of the value of the dollar? The Japanese yen is 1/80 the value of the dollar, and so what?
The US is manipulating its currency by printing lots of money, should the US be kicked out of the WTO?
The yuan has been allowed a very slight amount of "float", but there is no way they will allow the market to set the value of their currency AND you make an excellent point about US currency manipulation. Yes, the US has been sinking to new depths under the current and previous administration.
Capitalism in China is in the Wild Wild West (East?) stage. Somewhat similar to where we were in the late 19th Century. Robber barons everywhere. I wonder if the current state of government there will permit the appearance of a Teddy Roosevelt type to come in and clean house.
Teddy Roosevelt in China would be executed before he could make his first speech.
Comments
Thoughts to ponder:
Why are the ethics and morals in China different than here?
Does the West have a right to impose its values on other cultures?
Where did our (Western) sense of morality come from?
Sir, before these thoughts, I'd want you to ponder over the morality and ethics of these:
Within the last century, European nations colonized countries in Asia and Africa, draining their wealth, imposing draconian rule, killing entire populations, etc. For example, India's share of world's GDP was about 23% when the Europeans arrived at its shores in the 18th century; it was less then 1% when they left in the 20th. FWIW, even our country (USA) wouldn't be here if Europeans had not massacred the natives and their bison. Even the US had colonies, like Phillipines.
Within the last sixty years, after the retrenchment of colonization, the Ottoman Empire was chopped by the Brits into countries that didn't exist before (Iraq, Kuwait, etc.), and countries created anew (Israel out of Palestine). All this is the cause of current ferment. Also, the partition of India and Pakistan was in a hurry, because the Brits were in a rush to leave. The toll of human lives lost in this partition is the biggest in the history of the world because of migration.
Within the last fifty years, we, at the instigation of the Brits (again!), toppled the democratically elected regime of Iraq because it nationalized the oil industry, and put in our stooge, the Shah. The reason was that British Petroleum (now BP) wanted to make money in this newly discovered commodity.
Within the last decade, we have invaded a country (Iraq) on false pretence. Yes, Saddam was a bad man, and committed atrocities, but there are so many bad men we are in bed with like the Sauds and leaders of China. Have you seen a photograph of Bush holding the hand of the Emir of Saudi Arabia?
To this day, we elect to look the other way while one country (Pakistan), which is the root of all terrorist evil, develops nuclear weapons and instead we triple their aid for five years?
Once you find the morally/ethics in the situations I've laid out, I'll be happy to ponder and answer your set.
Peace.
Within the last sixty years, after the retrenchment of colonization, the Ottoman Empire was chopped by the Brits into countries that didn't exist before (Iraq, Kuwait), and countries created anew (Israel out of Palestine).
Hmm, the way that's phrased you seem to be implying that Britain created Israel the way it created Kuwait and Iraq. That is far from the truth.
From wiki:
After World War II, Britain found itself in fierce conflict with the Jewish community, as the Haganah joined Irgun and Lehi in an armed struggle against British rule. At the same time, thousands of Jewish Holocaust survivors and refugees from Europe sought a new life in Palestine, but were turned away or rounded up and placed in detention camps by the British. In 1947, the British government announced it would withdraw from the Mandate of Palestine, stating it was unable to arrive at a solution acceptable to both Arabs and Jews.
It is written law that the USA has a debt ceiling but that has no meaning, the only thing that matters is the current meaning of the party. Which is to get reelected, as opposed to governing.
LOL
Well said, my friend.
Thankfully, the USD is still the world's reserve currency. All we need to do is print a few more billion, just like the Fed did several months ago.
If you bought an Apple iPhoen from the Apple Stoer, then it's probably fake
I bought mine from the Mapple Store. "The light shows that it's off".
Absolutely. Show me a valid patent for gunpowder, paper, and ceramics and you should be able to get people to pay. Or show me a valid trademark that someone is violating.
Hint: intellectual property rights for those things was lost ages ago. Thanks for proving that you have no concept of intellectual property.
Show me a valid piece of IP in China for Apple's store design.
Until then, shut up with your silly arrogance.
It's objectively "wrong" to break the rules (contract or law).
Whose 'law'? Chinese? US? International? Universal?
What 'contract'? How does your naive worldview address third-party externalities imposed by the contacting parties (i.e., parties outside the direct contract who are affected by the contract)?
Sir, before these thoughts, I'd want you to ponder over the morality and ethics of these:
Within the last century, European nations colonized countries in Asia and Africa, draining their wealth, imposing draconian rule, killing entire populations, etc. For example, India's share of world's GDP was about 23% when the Europeans arrived at its shores in the 18th century; it was less then 1% when they left in the 20th. FWIW, even our country (USA) wouldn't be here if Europeans had not massacred the natives and their bison. Even the US had colonies, like Phillipines.
Within the last sixty years, after the retrenchment of colonization, the Ottoman Empire was chopped by the Brits into countries that didn't exist before (Iraq, Kuwait, etc.), and countries created anew (Israel out of Palestine). All this is the cause of current ferment. Also, the partition of India and Pakistan was in a hurry, because the Brits were in a rush to leave. The toll of human lives lost in this partition is the biggest in the history of the world because of migration.
Within the last fifty years, we, at the instigation of the Brits (again!), toppled the democratically elected regime of Iraq because it nationalized the oil industry, and put in our stooge, the Shah. The reason was that British Petroleum (now BP) wanted to make money in this newly discovered commodity.
Within the last decade, we have invaded a country (Iraq) on false pretence. Yes, Saddam was a bad man, and committed atrocities, but there are so many bad men we are in bed with like the Sauds and leaders of China. Have you seen a photograph of Bush holding the hand of the Emir of Saudi Arabia?
To this day, we elect to look the other way while one country (Pakistan), which is the root of all terrorist evil, develops nuclear weapons and instead we triple their aid for five years?
Once you find the morally/ethics in the situations I've laid out, I'll be happy to ponder and answer your set.
Peace.
Some very good thoughts there! Worth reposting in full.
Whose 'law'? Chinese? US? International? Universal?
What 'contract'? How does your naive worldview address third-party externalities imposed by the contacting parties (i.e., parties outside the direct contract who are affected by the contract)?
World Trade Organization (maybe)
How do you NOT get the receipt the instant you purchase your item? Even our Amish grocer gives receipts. They're printed from a cash register hooked to a car battery, for heaven's sake.
Apple Stores always give you the option to have your receipt emailed to you instead of printing one right there at the store. That's how you do NOT get the receipt the instant you purchase your item.
The fake Apple Store probably imitated this practice but not for the sake of customer convenience but for the sake of tax evasion.
Really! Last time I checked it took an act of Congress to change the ceiling, but I appreciate you explaining to me that this is either wrong, or it has no meaning that! Guess I am also wrong in the belief that the Congress was elected by the american people.
Nah, you miss my point.
The point is that "law" is variable and modified by the party to suit their ends, which irrelevent of being China or the USA is not so much about good governance but about staying in power or suiting their mates.
Surely no educated or intelligent person who has spent time observing the actions of our elected non-representatives thinks that they operate much differently no matter the imaginary governance system they operate in.
Laws are governance, politics is not governance, it is politics.
As for China and its dodgy anti humanitarian ways (which have nothing to do with a fake shop), there are no right nations only righteous ones. America, Australia, Britain, whoever have killed plenty of their own people and others, allowed terrible sadness.
It is best to stay on topic. My point is that China's cultural ways are not so bad and perhaps actually more a free market and that while you can slip money under a table to grease the right official there, you can do the same here, wherever here is for you. Here though you have no free market, you have a codified system of bribes and kickbacks to have the right to be in business.
Pay the inspector or get shut down, sounds the same as pay the protection racket or get shut down.
Trying to do something that strains the local ordinances, well if you are in China or USA or wherever, then knowing the guy in local government is going to grease that wheel, throwing a few dollars and a good lunch will help more and being their family is best.
Get off the high horse of cultural superiority, we are all humans doing what humans do.
Sorry about the spell in, but an idiot like this realy provokes me!
and idiot like you still can't spell
Wait, how do you live?
I use my brain to decide what will produce "good" results or "bad" results. Not in a simple narrow focused way mind you, but in a complex and considered way that has been refined based on much thought and observation, and taking into account second and third order effects of actions. Believe it or not, you don't need someone else to tell you how to live to be a decent person. It certainly can help at times, but it's best if you can eventually make it your own. I have found this to be more effective than trying to live by some objective moral code, but it takes a lot of effort and may not be for everyone.
That doesn't mean there's no objective right and wrong, it might just mean that particular society hasn't discovered it yet.
I don't mean there is no reality or truth, just that I don't believe in a preexisting "right" and "wrong" external to and independent from our physical reality. That is why I disagee with the person who said "it's wrong because it's wrong". That judgement must be justified and explained, based on some criteria, not just stated to be inherently and eternally true. This criteria will (unless religious) inevitably depend on some property of our physical existence.
For instance, (almost) all humans have a strong desire not to be killed or allow their loved ones to be killed, and even have empathy for others in general - therefore killing is "wrong" except in certain circumstances (to avoid more killing for instance). Those who do kill without just cause will likely suffer consequences from society. These are the same reasons I believe killing is "wrong", just not in the objectively moral sense. It just has terrible consequences all around, and I think there are almost always better options.
Right and wrong are "emergent" properties of our existence, that is they are a result of the particular physical makeup of our world. I suppose if an entire population didn't feel any emotionally connection to others or care whether we died, then murder wouldn't be "wrong" for them. But the rest of us sure as hell would impose our morality on them, and they would either comply, live separately, or kill or be killed.
Show me a valid piece of IP in China for Apple's store design.
The entire look of the store is Apple's trademark. Not to mention the Apple logo and the Apple name (as applied to computers). And the Apple trademark IS registered in China:
http://arstechnica.com/apple/news/20...emark-suit.ars
So stop pretending you know something when you clearly don't.
Until then, shut up with your silly arrogance.
Arrogance? Sorry, but you are the one who is being arrogant - AND ignorant. I have about 2 decades of experience doing business in China involving products covered by trademark and patents. What is YOUR experience?
Apple Stores always give you the option to have your receipt emailed to you instead of printing one right there at the store. That's how you do NOT get the receipt the instant you purchase your item.
The fake Apple Store probably imitated this practice but not for the sake of customer convenience but for the sake of tax evasion.
So you're saying they only offered e-mailed receipts that were never e-mailed? Them offering only digital versions is the only way I can see people having any right to complain.
...may not be for everyone.
Particularly when it's wrong, yeah.
Some amazingly blinkered comments here based on a perception of China which is outdated. The country is trying very hard to escape from its "copying" culture. Anyone who is in the business of exporting from China will know this. As expected the government in China have taken swift action to resolve this specific situation.
No, they haven't. They only closed the ones who aren't paying business taxes. The ones who are registered with the government are still in operation.
I do business in China. LOTS of business. And while the situation is improving slightly, it has a LONG, LONG, LONG way to go before intellectual property will be valued there enough for me to trust anything important to the country.
I do business in China. LOTS of business. And while the situation is improving slightly, it has a LONG, LONG, LONG way to go before intellectual property will be valued there enough for me to trust anything important to the country.
Capitalism in China is in the Wild Wild West (East?) stage. Somewhat similar to where we were in the late 19th Century. Robber barons everywhere. I wonder if the current state of government there will permit the appearance of a Teddy Roosevelt type to come in and clean house.
Their yuan is not pegged to any currency. The yuan has appreciated 25% in the past few years. If the yuan goes up more, that will only mean they can buy more oil and natural resources more cheaply, thereby increasing their competitiveness.
What do you mean by their yuan is 1/7 of the value of the dollar? The Japanese yen is 1/80 the value of the dollar, and so what?
The US is manipulating its currency by printing lots of money, should the US be kicked out of the WTO?
The yuan has been allowed a very slight amount of "float", but there is no way they will allow the market to set the value of their currency AND you make an excellent point about US currency manipulation. Yes, the US has been sinking to new depths under the current and previous administration.
Capitalism in China is in the Wild Wild West (East?) stage. Somewhat similar to where we were in the late 19th Century. Robber barons everywhere. I wonder if the current state of government there will permit the appearance of a Teddy Roosevelt type to come in and clean house.
Teddy Roosevelt in China would be executed before he could make his first speech.