Microsoft again clarifies that Windows 8 tablets won't actually run Windows apps

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  • Reply 101 of 135
    icoco3icoco3 Posts: 1,471member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by majortom1981 View Post


    I will get bashed for this BUT isnt this an apple website? Why is there a windows news story on the front page? Id rather go to a windows site to read windows news .



    In order to laugh at M$



    Microsoft should use this as a time to change how they do everything and set a platform for the future. Continuing along that same old path as the last 30 years, they will become obsolete after another 30 years.



    Tom
  • Reply 102 of 135
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Firefly7475 View Post


    The use case for "legacy" Windows on a tablet is "dockable" devices. Examples are the ASUS Transformer and the Motorola Atrix).



    I don't expect a user being required to enter the "legacy" Windows desktop whilst using a device in "touch mode".



    Fair enough!



    Couple of questions:



    1) do you take the "dock" (essentially a setup containing a stand, a kb and mouse or touchpad) with you everywhere or do you have separate docks at strategic locations -- home, classroom or office, etc.?



    2) at what point does the cost and inconvenience of multiple docks outweigh that of a self-contained clamshell laptop?



    I can appreciate and understand the appeal of the Metro UI and widgets. What I don't understand is how developers can prevent piracy of their Windows 8 apps developed using HTML5, CSS, JavaScript...
  • Reply 103 of 135
    The amount of misinformation in this article is mindblowing.



    First, it's not "any" tablet, it's an ARM tablet.

    Second, this is really only true for applications written in languages that are not hardware agnostic.



    Managed code (.NET) does not have this problem. At the VERY most, you'll be required to recompile your project for an ARM architecture before you publish.



    That would involve the following steps:

    1. Open project in VS2011 (20sec on average - depending on project size)

    2. Go to project properties and choose 'ARM' or 'Any CPU' and hit ctrl+shift+b (about 30 seconds including compiling)

    3. Go to menu 'store' and choose 'publish' to upload to store (a minute at most?)



    So all in all, you'ld get a win7 managed code project into an ARM format, including uploading to store, in under 5 minutes.



    Did I mention that the vast majority of business applications are written in .NET? Well, they are.



    And let's be serious here... nobody is gonna want to run Photoshop, 3d max or any other such application on a freaking 11inch screen (I say 'screen', because windows 8 tablets are actual computers not 'just' tablets).



    I don't mind anyone critisizing anything. But at least get your facts straight.
  • Reply 104 of 135
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by ALUOp View Post


    I don't understand why this is a news.

    A person with little computer knowledge should know this from day 1.

    It's two different architectures. That's also one of the reasons why Apple won't release MBA with a ARM CPU. You will start with 0 apps!



    Very true, unless, Apple made a MacBook Air with both an INTEL and an ARM CPU. Imagine having the power of the intel chip, but the very low power usage of the ARM chip. You could surf the web, read email and do all of the iOS app things with the ARM chip, then if you need photoshop, or Excel, you can somehow invoke the Intel Chip. Sounds odd, but they have already done this exact thing with the GPUs. Remember Grand Central? The feature in Snow Leopard that Apple states " Grand Central Dispatch (GCD) provides a revolutionary new way for software to take advantage of multicore processors." Well, why not multiple processors? Apple is already morphing OS X and iOS. The MacBook Air could be the perfect hybrid device that would give us the advantages of both.



    The A6 or A7 chip will be very tiny, sips on power and very low heat.

    iOS takes up very little memory. And the apps and os are designed to free/release that memory as much as possible.

    Lion already uses Launchpad. Gestures, etc.

    Safari, Mail, iCal and so many other apps could run for DAYS with a large MPA battery if the default OS and CPU would be iOS/ARM .

    In fact, make just about everything use the ARM chip, and have a Turbo mode available only for the programs that require the INTEL CPU.



    Just my thoughts.
  • Reply 105 of 135
    You didn't ask me, but I'ld like to answer your questions anyway.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum


    Fair enough!



    Couple of questions:



    1) do you take the "dock" (essentially a setup containing a stand, a kb and mouse or touchpad) with you everywhere or do you have separate docks at strategic locations -- home, classroom or office, etc.?



    That would depend on strategy. In an enterprise setting, I'ld say that there would be docks everywhere. Just like there are now. I know of quite some companies that use nothing but (identical) laptops. Every desk has a dock. I don't see how this would be any different.



    Secondly, it's not just docks. It's also transformables like the Samsung Sliding 7 PC. I expect to see a lot more of such devices in the future. A transformable tablet/laptop with a quad core ARM CPU and SSD running win8? Hell yeah!



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum


    2) at what point does the cost and inconvenience of multiple docks outweigh that of a self-contained clamshell laptop?



    Eum... all the time. Docks, keyboards and mice are very cheap. And they extend battery life (actual life... as in when you need to replace your battery since they loose quality over time).



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum


    I can appreciate and understand the appeal of the Metro UI and widgets. What I don't understand is how developers can prevent piracy of their Windows 8 apps developed using HTML5, CSS, JavaScript...



    Don't be fooled by the buzzwords of HTML5, CSS and Javascript. The metro applications written in those languages will be built upon the new WinRT framework. They will not work on other platforms. Not even on earlier windows versions.



    Concerning piracy, if I understood correctly, metro applications will only be installable through the windows store. Although that's just an assumption. I have heared a msft official say this literally. It seemed to be implied a couple times.

    Licensing will be handled by the store, tied to your account and synced on all your windows8 computers.
  • Reply 106 of 135
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post


    1) do you take the "dock" (essentially a setup containing a stand, a kb and mouse or touchpad) with you everywhere or do you have separate docks at strategic locations -- home, classroom or office, etc.?



    2) at what point does the cost and inconvenience of multiple docks outweigh that of a self-contained clamshell laptop?



    For the tablet I would only envision one dock. It might only be used occasionally when one needs to do the taxes, balance the budget or write a report. The kids might use it when assignment time comes around.



    For the rest of the time the tablet would be detached and used for reading or playing Xbox Live whilst reclining on the lounge.



    The phone is much more tricky. As it would need to be docked into a screen the use cases are far less. It might be something more suited to use by Nokia in emerging markets (e.g. docking a phone into a TV to create a less-than-ideal by cheap PC scenario)
  • Reply 107 of 135
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by timgriff84 View Post


    Even stanger in visual studio I've been creating projects with application in the name of the project type even befoe smartphones and tablets existed.



    Doubly stranger, I used essentially the same Project Builder (sorry, now Xcode) to build applications on the NeXT box before using it to create applications on OS X and now the iPhone and iPad. So it's as if both desktops and mobile devices can run applications.
  • Reply 108 of 135
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by ConradJoe View Post


    Because all the cool new software is always built for Windows first and best. Within any category there are almost always many fewer choices of software for Macs.



    I half agree - there are generally fewer choices, but they're typically much nicer. Having moved from Windows myself, there is ONE app that I still run in vmware for photo stitching, and every time I get into that awful Windows UI paradigm it makes me want to barf. But the stitched pictures turn out nicely.
  • Reply 109 of 135
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Dirty Smuggler View Post


    Sorry to mess with your reality, but I'm an Apple fan, lurking AI since 2005. And it's not just the headline, the whole crux of the story is based on misrepresenting someone's words and a bad assumption.



    All the Apple rumour sites report the same stories, and none of the others have written about this. That's because if you stick to what was said, there's no story.



    The short headline on the front page says:



    "Microsoft again clarifies that Windows 8 tablets won't actually run Windows apps

    The president of Microsoft's Windows unit, Stephen Sinofsky, has again pointedly clarified that new ARM tablets running Windows 8 next year won't actually run existing Windows apps for PCs."



    Bold is mine, the rest is from the front page. What in the world is so confusing about that?



    There are 2 main items to break out in terms of Win8 hardware:



    1) ARM tablets running Windows won't have access to legacy apps. That would seem to kill the 'Windows has more apps' advantage, particularly when faced with the more established iOS ecosystem.



    2) x86 tablets are TabletPCs. Sure, run the old apps with a stylus or keyboard/mouse. Nobody has ever wanted to do that before either. So also not a seemingly strong business move.



    Neither of these is a misrepresentation, though I'd argue that (for Microsoft) they are based on, as you put it, a bad assumption.
  • Reply 110 of 135
    "Wintel opens door to new chipmakers" on CNN.



    It takes you to an article that has the headline: "Windows 8 opens door to new chipmakers" and talks about breaking the long-held grip that Intel has had on Windows.



    Now that's a goofy headline.
  • Reply 111 of 135
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by nvidia2008 View Post


    At the very least they should have come up with a bold plan to make Office for tablets. Why they are not doing this is a mystery. A massive percentage of people buying iPads have "Can I do Office on this?" as one of their first questions. Yes there are apps that do that for iOS and Android but surely it would pale in comparison to Microsoft Office for Windows 8 tablets... right? *Sigh*



    I'm actually with you all the way, I'd love to see Office for the iPad and Android.



    I actually don't think they should stop there. Xbox Live, Messenger/Skype, Live Mesh, Lync and the Zune services should all be available on OSX, iOS and Android where possible.



    Microsoft's own OS's should allow them to have the best version of each service. If it doesn't allow that then the OS guys aren't doing their job.



    Alas I don't think we are ever going to see it. The Windows guys are in control at Microsoft and they use these services to drive customers toward Windows.



    No doubt it will work to some extent. At Build Ballmer said "...you ought to expect that we are rethinking and working hard on what it would mean to do Office Metro style" pretty well confirming Metro Office was on its way (you can bet Microsoft PR guys are once again beating their heads against the wall).



    So this time next year your hypothetical iPad customer asking "can I do Office on this?" might very well receive the answer "No, but all of these Windows 8 tablets can".
  • Reply 112 of 135
    alfiejralfiejr Posts: 1,524member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Dirty Smuggler View Post


    With readers like this, no wonder DED can pass his opinions and assumptions off as fact.



    Running Windows applications on a tablet will be their only point of difference, so don't be surprised to see some hot and heavy hardware on sale, it hasn't stopped them before.

    And that's how they'll clear up the confusion over what can run real Windows. The ads will say "Just look for the fat ones".



    you mean, the fat, hot, and heavy ones that run for 4 hours. yeah sure, they will sell a zillion of those. dozens of OEM's will rush them to market. that's exactly what people want. not a thin, cool, light iPad, or even Droid, tablet that runs for 10 hours. not even the other MS ARM tablet models that are similar to the competition and can run a new generation of W8 software, starting with Office 2013 of course. because of course everyone wants to buy tablets to run their OLD stuff that was NEVER designed to work with a touch UI, not those new "app" things that are. the pent up demand is huge! and just imagine how much more it will grow by the time MS actually gets W8 finished a year behind schedule as usual in 2013!



    i like that strategy, i like it a lot. Firefly can't wait to buy one.
  • Reply 113 of 135
    alfiejralfiejr Posts: 1,524member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by mrstep View Post


    The short headline on the front page says:



    "Microsoft again clarifies that Windows 8 tablets won't actually run Windows apps

    The president of Microsoft's Windows unit, Stephen Sinofsky, has again pointedly clarified that new ARM tablets running Windows 8 next year won't actually run existing Windows apps for PCs."



    Bold is mine, the rest is from the front page. What in the world is so confusing about that?



    There are 2 main items to break out in terms of Win8 hardware:



    1) ARM tablets running Windows won't have access to legacy apps. That would seem to kill the 'Windows has more apps' advantage, particularly when faced with the more established iOS ecosystem.



    2) x86 tablets are TabletPCs. Sure, run the old apps with a stylus or keyboard/mouse. Nobody has ever wanted to do that before either. So also not a seemingly strong business move.



    Neither of these is a misrepresentation, though I'd argue that (for Microsoft) they are based on, as you put it, a bad assumption.



    well said.
  • Reply 114 of 135
    It's not confusing to me, at least I don't think so, and I'm not even a Window weenie...



    Windows 8 will run "Metro" apps on x86 hardware, along with existing x86 based Windows apps.



    Windows 8 will run only "Metro" apps on ARM hardware.



    Did I miss anything?
  • Reply 115 of 135
    alfiejralfiejr Posts: 1,524member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Firefly7475 View Post


    I'm actually with you all the way, I'd love to see Office for the iPad and Android.



    I actually don't think they should stop there. Xbox Live, Messenger/Skype, Live Mesh, Lync and the Zune services should all be available on OSX, iOS and Android where possible.



    Microsoft's own OS's should allow them to have the best version of each service. If it doesn't allow that then the OS guys aren't doing their job.



    Alas I don't think we are ever going to see it. The Windows guys are in control at Microsoft and they use these services to drive customers toward Windows.



    No doubt it will work to some extent. At Build Ballmer said "...you ought to expect that we are rethinking and working hard on what it would mean to do Office Metro style" pretty well confirming Metro Office was on its way (you can bet Microsoft PR guys are once again beating their heads against the wall).



    So this time next year your hypothetical iPad customer asking "can I do Office on this?" might very well receive the answer "No, but all of these Windows 8 tablets can".



    exactly.



    Ballmer of course is the supreme "Windows guy." also being the "marketing guy" that he is at the core, he just simply slaps the "Windows" brand on every flavor of OS that MS puts into the market for licensing. even if they are totally different technically. NT 6 or 7, CE, whatever, who cares? it's all going to be Windows 8. his brilliant plan is to finally unify it all from a consumer perspective with a standard top level UI layer, Metro, across all devices.



    but he must realize he will have to leave W7 in place for MS bread-and=butter enterprise customers. - who are finally just upgrading to it now and leaving XP behind. the business world is not going to switch to W8 and retrain all their employees just for the sake of Metro's pretty colors and a touch UI they don't need.



    so basically, MS is "forking" Windows into two product lines - one for consumers with pretty colors, the other for enterprise with Exchange and all the other established MS services.



    the risk of course is that they will lose a big chunk of their current consumer user base in the process to the very strong competition, being four years late getting to the party.
  • Reply 116 of 135
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by ScientificBob View Post


    The amount of misinformation in this article is mindblowing.



    First, it's not "any" tablet, it's an ARM tablet.

    Second, this is really only true for applications written in languages that are not hardware agnostic.



    Managed code (.NET) does not have this problem. At the VERY most, you'll be required to recompile your project for an ARM architecture before you publish.



    That would involve the following steps:

    1. Open project in VS2011 (20sec on average - depending on project size)

    2. Go to project properties and choose 'ARM' or 'Any CPU' and hit ctrl+shift+b (about 30 seconds including compiling)

    3. Go to menu 'store' and choose 'publish' to upload to store (a minute at most?)



    So all in all, you'ld get a win7 managed code project into an ARM format, including uploading to store, in under 5 minutes.



    I don't mind anyone critisizing anything. But at least get your facts straight.



    While what you say may be technically true -- I do not think it is practical.



    There are many more considerations when going from a pc to a tablet, to name a few:

    -- screen real estate

    -- sizes of controls, buttons, etc.

    -- multi-window vs single window

    -- multi-touch vs kb & mouse/touchpad

    -- flexibility/clutter vs limited-option/focus

    -- availability of attachable accessory devices vs lack of same

    -- power & resource consumption



    You really need to think about an application that runs [relatively] unrestricted on the desktop compared to the way it should run within the constraints of a tablet.



    You will, likely, need to storyboard your application to assure that the flow and UX are acceptable -- say. when the virtual kb pops up and covers the part of the document that the user needs to type into.



    Then you have another, different set of HIGs that you must conform to -- so your app plays well in the new environment -- there are no mouseover hints; the controls must be large enough to navigate with a finger; you should take advantage of pinch-zoom, location services, etc...



    It actually. takes more redesign than you'd think to take even a simple iPhone app and make it into a an equivalent iPad app.



    So yes, it may take only 5 minutes to recompile an app for a different platform -- but it often comes after days (weeks? months?) of redesigning/repurposing the app for the new environment.



    Then, after all that, you have 2 different codebases to maintain.
  • Reply 117 of 135
    alfiejralfiejr Posts: 1,524member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by mytdave View Post


    It's not confusing to me, at least I don't think so, and I'm not even a Window weenie...



    Windows 8 will run "Metro" apps on x86 hardware, along with existing x86 based Windows apps.



    Windows 8 will run only "Metro" apps on ARM hardware.



    Did I miss anything?



    no, you got it.



    the problem is that MS totally obfuscated this at the Big Demo a few days ago. the hype got in the way. to add to the confusion, there apparently will be two kinds of W8 apps - those like conventional desktop applications, and those like iPad/droid tablet apps. but both will work on anything running W8, take your pick. the Windows Phone apps, however, are still different! that's CE, oops ...



    or maybe WinPhone will be converted to W8 OS too. that's ok, Nokia won't mind another big OS switch, nah. they'll belong to MS by then anyway.
  • Reply 118 of 135
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post


    But there is a difference! The day the iPad was announced there were hundreds of thousands of apps that would run in it (1x or 2x). AIR, when the iPad was first delivered, 3 months, later, there were 50,000 (or so) native iPad apps.



    What can MS deliver, over a year from now, that can cause someone (or company) to buy a Windows 8 tablet over the then current iPad and all its apps?



    Especially when you consider that each app a user buys gives him an additional reason to stay within the iPad ecosystem.



    Android tablets don't seem to be able crack this nut after more than a year of trying -- what makes you think Windows 8 will be able to after another year or more delay.



    Because you have nut-cases in business who won't buy anything unless "Windows" will run on it. The in-bred IT Admins and CIOs will spend millions of dollars and 10 years of effort to integrate the new "Windows" into their legacy "Windows" workflows. Whereas they could have purchased iPads now, and used the tools already available through Apple and 3rd parties to quickly integrate iPads into their organizations. But they're not that bright.



    It's okay though, the young nimble businesses who are eager and aggressive will have jumped onto the iPad (and other non-standard products - like Linux) in the 1st year or two and will be running circles around these old, lumbering dinosaurs before they're ever able to get the new "Windows" platform stabilized.
  • Reply 119 of 135
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post


    With Windows XP, the company added support for both Intel's Itanium IA64 and the AMD-originated x64, a 64-bit extension of x86. However, both products require separate apps and separate versions of the operating system. In contrast, Apple has moved from 68k to PowerPC to Intel x86, each time offering robust backwards compatibility for existing apps.



    In its move from x86 to 64-bit apps, Apple delivered a similarly smooth transition, allowing Universal Binary apps to work on either platform, and distribution one version of Mac OS X capable of running on either 32 or 64 bit hardware.





    This isn't actually correct. The move from Power PC to Intel was good but not perfect, I for one had a few games that no longer worked. With each iteration of OS X there has always been software that no longer works. To the extent now with Lion 0 of the apps I bought for Panther and Tiger actually work on it. So to suggest is offering "robust backwards compatibility" is just wrong.
  • Reply 120 of 135
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by mrstep View Post


    I half agree - there are generally fewer choices, but they're typically much nicer. Having moved from Windows myself, there is ONE app that I still run in vmware for photo stitching, and every time I get into that awful Windows UI paradigm it makes me want to barf. But the stitched pictures turn out nicely.



    Which photo stitching app? Last time I looked there were some good ones on the Mac (some freebies) and even a few on the iPhone/iPad.
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