If so, then why are Android phones outselling iOS phones? Last I knew, the ecosystem of Android was not nearly as developed the ecosystem for iOS phones.
I have to believe that it is a combination of factors which causes most people to choose Android over iOS when buying a smartphone. The ecosystem may be important, but in combination with all other factors, we see Android outselling iOS by a greater than 2 to 1 margin. So I can't believe that any simplistic one-factor analysis can be the whole story.
If so, then why are Android phones outselling iOS phones? Last I knew, the ecosystem of Android was not nearly as developed the ecosystem for iOS phones.
I have to believe that it is a combination of factors which causes most people to choose Android over iOS when buying a smartphone. The ecosystem may be important, but in combination with all other factors, we see Android outselling iOS by a greater than 2 to 1 margin. So I can't believe that any simplistic one-factor analysis can be the whole story.
Maybe if you just went back and reread my post you'd understand my comment.
I'll give you a hint... I don't view things from quarter to quarter... we're in the second inning... I think that Apple will eventually begin to pull forward in market share. I don't think they will ever be the market share leader... too many factors as you state, mostly sheer number of manufacturers... but I do think that Android will slow and iOS will move forward taking some of Android's share.... it's all in my comment.
We're not at the zero sum game yet... not even close. When we eventually get there then we can have a look around. Computers are an interesting example... the PC market is retracting slightly but Macs are growing. Why? ... and iOS will not reach a single digit percentage of market share.
[on edit - btw... I believe that Apple will eventually get into fabrication.... either chips or panels... or both. If they want to ensure supply then that's the way to do it. That isn't to say that they wouldn't still order from others... but I really think that is Apple's next "big" direction.]
You have to remember that Android == OS on Multiple Phones, where iPhone == 1 Product line.
The reason for the outpacing is the plethora of handsets to choose from, and people will choose the best one that matches their shoes. No single Android phone has outsold a single iPhone. That has to account for a lot.
Do you think that Apple will ever make a wide variety of products so to satisfy most people? Or will they make products that meet the needs of some market niches, while ignoring others?
Lately they seem to have embarked on a course to capture the extreme low end of the smartphone market by giving away iPhones for free. That is an unprecedented strategy for Apple, AFAIK.
Do you think that Apple will expand the iPhone brand into yet more market segments, or stick with the mid-line and the extreme low end?
Maybe if you just went back and reread my post you'd understand my comment.
I'll give you a hint... I don't view things from quarter to quarter... we're in the second inning... I think that Apple will eventually begin to pull forward in market share. I don't think they will ever be the market share leader... too many factors as you state, mostly sheer number of manufacturers... but I do think that Android will slow and iOS will move forward taking some of Android's share.... it's all in my comment.
We're not at the zero sum game yet... not even close. When we eventually get there then we can have a look around. Computers are an interesting example... the PC market is retracting slightly but Macs are growing. Why? ... and iOS will not reach a single digit percentage of market share.
But for what basis? Android seems to be doing quite fine. Half of Verizon's sales last quarter. How, exactly do you come to that basis. Because you WANT them to come to that conclusion?
Android could very well be the Windows of the market.....but that might be a terrible thing for many companies. A company like....uh...Huweii (?spelling?) might not make a lot of money because too many other makers. Apple's in a great position. Even if they just had 2% of the market, most Apps that are payed are on iOS and NOT Android.
Do you think that Apple will ever make a wide variety of products so to satisfy most people? Or will they make products that meet the needs of some market niches, while ignoring others?
Lately they seem to have embarked on a course to capture the extreme low end of the smartphone market by giving away iPhones for free. That is an unprecedented strategy for Apple, AFAIK.
Do you think that Apple will expand the iPhone brand into yet more market segments, or stick with the mid-line and the extreme low end?
I really doubt Apple could even do that. Apple had liscened out their OS before in the '90s and the results weren't to pretty. In fact, that ATE into their sectioned market. Not good at all.
How is it dead in the water when Android phones overall are outpacing iPhones?
I think it depends on the company. If you switched OSes for the companies, fanboys now suddenly thing the other feature is cool. It'd be 'revolutionary' if Apple had face unlock. Hell, look at the way Android fanboys reacted when Siri was announced....saying it was stupid.....the very same feature they were praising Android for.
I tried to be clear that I was saying that it's dead in the water in terms of OS innovation. It has been obvious for a long time now that Android phone sales don't have much to do with where Android stands in terms of features compared to iOS or whether the phones being sold have the latest version or not. They're selling primarily to a market that's (apparently) indifferent.
I tried to be clear that I was saying that it's dead in the water in terms of OS innovation. It has been obvious for a long time now that Android phone sales don't have much to do with where Android stands in terms of features compared to iOS or whether the phones being sold have the latest version or not. They're selling primarily to a market that's (apparently) indifferent.
Oh, well then I apologize then.
I know what you mean though. My Vibrant is still stuck on 2.2 (took 6 months to get there in the first place).
Anyone remeber how feature phones could pretty much use the same appls because they were Java-powered? I think that's happening on 'Droid...
I would not doubt that those factors are important to some smartphone buyers.
But if they were crucial, then why do Android phones outsell iOS phones by a more than 2 to 1 margin?
From what I have seen the higher priced Android phones are the most popular, so I doubt that price is the a big factor for most Smartphone buyers. I wonder how important any of the the factors you list are to the average smartphone buyer.
For example, recent press said that many Android handsets are not updated to the most recent OS rev. So while it may or may not be true that "They're buying the latest OS version and the promise of regular updates." when people go with an iOS phone, it does not seem to be true of most smartphone buyers.
I'm not saying they're crucial to all smartphone buyers. I'm saying they're important to the part of the market Apple targets and that's why the margins are higher in that market. I'm trying to explain what people who buy Apple products are paying for. (I think I confused you with somebody else who was arguing that Apple is only high-margin because they overcharge.)
I don't think the higher priced Android phones are the most popular. What are you basing that on? The high-end Samsung phones sell in the millions but that's a small part of the overall Android market.
The thing is - that argument is made by Apple fans ( but only when market share is in decline) but not by Apple, who never mention gross margin outside of financial conference calls where they have to. When Tim Cook gets up on stage he shows graphs of Apple's market share, he doesn't sugar the pill. He shows Apple at a mere 5% of all mobile shipments, and says he wants to go higher as all phones will be smart some day. That means going cheaper.
This doesn't sully Apple's brand because they still have the high end stuff ( similar to iPods).
Apple has gone cheaper with a free 3GS or a $99 iPhone 4.
Apple has gone cheaper with a free 3GS or a $99 iPhone 4.
I think it is clear that Apple is trying to expand its horizons into different segments of the smartphone market. First they had only a premium product, then they expanded into the midline, and now they seem to want the low end market as well.
They absolutely won the race to the bottom, giving away iPhones for free. I'll be interested to see how the loss-leader strategy will work out for them. AFAIK, Apple has never tried to capture the bottom segment of any market, not until now.
Will they follow up with cheap computers too? Or will they continue with mid- to high-perfomance machines?
From what I have seen, it is likely that the Mac Pro line will either be abruptly discontinued, or will continue to die a slow death. The mid-line server products have been discontinued, AFAIK. And Apple has both declared war on Adobe, who was a big reason why professionals would buy high end Apple computers in the first place, and discontinued its own software marketed towards video professionals.
Will Apple cede the high end of the smartphone market to Android? Will they aim more firmly towards the mid-market and the low-end market, both in phones and computers too?
I think it is clear that Apple is trying to expand its horizons into different segments of the smartphone market. First they had only a premium product, then they expanded into the midline, and now they seem to want the low end market as well.
They absolutely won the race to the bottom, giving away iPhones for free. I'll be interested to see how the loss-leader strategy will work out for them. AFAIK, Apple has never tried to capture the bottom segment of any market, not until now.
Will they follow up with cheap computers too? Or will they continue with mid- to high-perfomance machines?
From what I have seen, it is likely that the Mac Pro line will either be abruptly discontinued, or will continue to die a slow death. The mid-line server products have been discontinued, AFAIK. And Apple has both declared war on Adobe, who was a big reason why professionals would buy high end Apple computers in the first place, and discontinued its own software marketed towards video professionals.
Will Apple cede the high end of the smartphone market to Android? Will they aim more firmly towards the mid-market and the low-end market, both in phones and computers too?
I hope they're giving away Macbook Pros fo' freee!!!!!!!
I'm assuming Apple will blow Samsung out of the water this quarter. There's the small issue of them not launching a single phone last quarter. 4S sales will be monster by the end of the year, as will 3GS (Free on contract). Samsung can enjoy their gloating while it lasts.
I think it is clear that Apple is trying to expand its horizons into different segments of the smartphone market. First they had only a premium product, then they expanded into the midline, and now they seem to want the low end market as well.
They absolutely won the race to the bottom, giving away iPhones for free. I'll be interested to see how the loss-leader strategy will work out for them. AFAIK, Apple has never tried to capture the bottom segment of any market, not until now.
Will they follow up with cheap computers too? Or will they continue with mid- to high-perfomance machines?
From what I have seen, it is likely that the Mac Pro line will either be abruptly discontinued, or will continue to die a slow death. The mid-line server products have been discontinued, AFAIK. And Apple has both declared war on Adobe, who was a big reason why professionals would buy high end Apple computers in the first place, and discontinued its own software marketed towards video professionals.
Will Apple cede the high end of the smartphone market to Android? Will they aim more firmly towards the mid-market and the low-end market, both in phones and computers too?
The free iPhone won't cost Apple anything, in fact it makes money since AT&T still has to pay Apple for the phone. AT&T makes money as well since it costs them less than a newer gen iPhone to subsidize. Same with the $99 iPhone 4.
How did you come up with that figure? Are you saying that if your monthly bill with a nexus one would be less than if you had an iphone?.
How did i come up with taht figure?
The cost Apple charged me for an iPhone 4 32gb
The cost vodafone would have charged me for an no-contract Nexus One (about the only local android device at the time) plus acquiring a larger micro SD card
I don't play a plan, so that value is irrelevant. That was the true, unsubsidised, price for the phones.
I don't work for them and i do not own their shares, what do i care about their profit. In fact, if i was purchasing, i would prefer as little as possible.
On a contract they all start at £30 and go as high as £70 a month.
Please go away and check your numbers again
P.S.
These are all the latest phones. if you are going to shove an old HTC Desire HD in my face, be sure to get the original selling price, not the reduced price from Amazon nearly a year later
EU:
Apple iPhone 4S 16 = 750 EUR
Samsung Galaxy S2 16 = 430 EUR
No need to comment.
Samsung overtook Apple to become the world's biggest shipper of smartphones between July and September.
The cost vodafone would have charged me for an no-contract Nexus One (about the only local android device at the time) plus acquiring a larger micro SD card
I don't play a plan, so that value is irrelevant. That was the true, unsubsidised, price for the phones.
The phones without wireless service is just an expensive ipod touch. Why don't you compare the costs of a 32gb ipod touch instead since you're not including wireless service. I believe it's around $299.
To whom? Not to me. I'm a consumer. I want to be looking after my interest not the manufacturer's. I never buy a phone on contract. On T-Mobile, I buy a phone (usually for significantly less on Craigslist from people who upgrade on contract and sell the phone for a $300-$400). I pay at least $20 less on my no contract price than a contract price and save at least $250-$300 per year.
if people didn't give a shit there would be much more movement between devices, but Apple users are sticky. So they care about the brand.
As an owner of multiple Apple devices, as well as other electronic brands it's not the Apple brand that is of interest to me, but rather how the devices interact with each other.
We have 2 year old relatives who use our Apple TV to watch movies, and stream movies from iPads.
There's no way they'd be able to do that with the WD Media server, or the PS3 Media Server. Those items are fine for me, and serve their purpose, but for the people who just want to enjoy their media easily, they're not. (ex. PS3 media server does not interact well with EYE-TV. I had to read the error logs, and search on google for the error message to get it working.)
So while Apple products continue to interact with each other with no issues, I'll stick with them.
ZTE are Chinese. Eventually everything will be Chinese.
Eventually? It seems like everything already is. Even Nokia seems to be made in China now. The only part of products that are not made in China anymore seems to be the idea for the product.
Comments
It's the ecosystem, stupid...
If so, then why are Android phones outselling iOS phones? Last I knew, the ecosystem of Android was not nearly as developed the ecosystem for iOS phones.
I have to believe that it is a combination of factors which causes most people to choose Android over iOS when buying a smartphone. The ecosystem may be important, but in combination with all other factors, we see Android outselling iOS by a greater than 2 to 1 margin. So I can't believe that any simplistic one-factor analysis can be the whole story.
If so, then why are Android phones outselling iOS phones? Last I knew, the ecosystem of Android was not nearly as developed the ecosystem for iOS phones.
I have to believe that it is a combination of factors which causes most people to choose Android over iOS when buying a smartphone. The ecosystem may be important, but in combination with all other factors, we see Android outselling iOS by a greater than 2 to 1 margin. So I can't believe that any simplistic one-factor analysis can be the whole story.
Maybe if you just went back and reread my post you'd understand my comment.
I'll give you a hint... I don't view things from quarter to quarter... we're in the second inning... I think that Apple will eventually begin to pull forward in market share. I don't think they will ever be the market share leader... too many factors as you state, mostly sheer number of manufacturers... but I do think that Android will slow and iOS will move forward taking some of Android's share.... it's all in my comment.
We're not at the zero sum game yet... not even close. When we eventually get there then we can have a look around. Computers are an interesting example... the PC market is retracting slightly but Macs are growing. Why? ... and iOS will not reach a single digit percentage of market share.
[on edit - btw... I believe that Apple will eventually get into fabrication.... either chips or panels... or both. If they want to ensure supply then that's the way to do it. That isn't to say that they wouldn't still order from others... but I really think that is Apple's next "big" direction.]
You have to remember that Android == OS on Multiple Phones, where iPhone == 1 Product line.
The reason for the outpacing is the plethora of handsets to choose from, and people will choose the best one that matches their shoes. No single Android phone has outsold a single iPhone. That has to account for a lot.
Do you think that Apple will ever make a wide variety of products so to satisfy most people? Or will they make products that meet the needs of some market niches, while ignoring others?
Lately they seem to have embarked on a course to capture the extreme low end of the smartphone market by giving away iPhones for free. That is an unprecedented strategy for Apple, AFAIK.
Do you think that Apple will expand the iPhone brand into yet more market segments, or stick with the mid-line and the extreme low end?
Maybe if you just went back and reread my post you'd understand my comment.
I'll give you a hint... I don't view things from quarter to quarter... we're in the second inning... I think that Apple will eventually begin to pull forward in market share. I don't think they will ever be the market share leader... too many factors as you state, mostly sheer number of manufacturers... but I do think that Android will slow and iOS will move forward taking some of Android's share.... it's all in my comment.
We're not at the zero sum game yet... not even close. When we eventually get there then we can have a look around. Computers are an interesting example... the PC market is retracting slightly but Macs are growing. Why? ... and iOS will not reach a single digit percentage of market share.
But for what basis? Android seems to be doing quite fine. Half of Verizon's sales last quarter. How, exactly do you come to that basis. Because you WANT them to come to that conclusion?
Android could very well be the Windows of the market.....but that might be a terrible thing for many companies. A company like....uh...Huweii (?spelling?) might not make a lot of money because too many other makers. Apple's in a great position. Even if they just had 2% of the market, most Apps that are payed are on iOS and NOT Android.
Do you think that Apple will ever make a wide variety of products so to satisfy most people? Or will they make products that meet the needs of some market niches, while ignoring others?
Lately they seem to have embarked on a course to capture the extreme low end of the smartphone market by giving away iPhones for free. That is an unprecedented strategy for Apple, AFAIK.
Do you think that Apple will expand the iPhone brand into yet more market segments, or stick with the mid-line and the extreme low end?
I really doubt Apple could even do that. Apple had liscened out their OS before in the '90s and the results weren't to pretty. In fact, that ATE into their sectioned market. Not good at all.
How is it dead in the water when Android phones overall are outpacing iPhones?
I think it depends on the company. If you switched OSes for the companies, fanboys now suddenly thing the other feature is cool. It'd be 'revolutionary' if Apple had face unlock. Hell, look at the way Android fanboys reacted when Siri was announced....saying it was stupid.....the very same feature they were praising Android for.
I tried to be clear that I was saying that it's dead in the water in terms of OS innovation. It has been obvious for a long time now that Android phone sales don't have much to do with where Android stands in terms of features compared to iOS or whether the phones being sold have the latest version or not. They're selling primarily to a market that's (apparently) indifferent.
I tried to be clear that I was saying that it's dead in the water in terms of OS innovation. It has been obvious for a long time now that Android phone sales don't have much to do with where Android stands in terms of features compared to iOS or whether the phones being sold have the latest version or not. They're selling primarily to a market that's (apparently) indifferent.
Oh, well then I apologize then.
I know what you mean though. My Vibrant is still stuck on 2.2 (took 6 months to get there in the first place).
Anyone remeber how feature phones could pretty much use the same appls because they were Java-powered? I think that's happening on 'Droid...
I would not doubt that those factors are important to some smartphone buyers.
But if they were crucial, then why do Android phones outsell iOS phones by a more than 2 to 1 margin?
From what I have seen the higher priced Android phones are the most popular, so I doubt that price is the a big factor for most Smartphone buyers. I wonder how important any of the the factors you list are to the average smartphone buyer.
For example, recent press said that many Android handsets are not updated to the most recent OS rev. So while it may or may not be true that "They're buying the latest OS version and the promise of regular updates." when people go with an iOS phone, it does not seem to be true of most smartphone buyers.
I'm not saying they're crucial to all smartphone buyers. I'm saying they're important to the part of the market Apple targets and that's why the margins are higher in that market. I'm trying to explain what people who buy Apple products are paying for. (I think I confused you with somebody else who was arguing that Apple is only high-margin because they overcharge.)
I don't think the higher priced Android phones are the most popular. What are you basing that on? The high-end Samsung phones sell in the millions but that's a small part of the overall Android market.
The thing is - that argument is made by Apple fans ( but only when market share is in decline) but not by Apple, who never mention gross margin outside of financial conference calls where they have to. When Tim Cook gets up on stage he shows graphs of Apple's market share, he doesn't sugar the pill. He shows Apple at a mere 5% of all mobile shipments, and says he wants to go higher as all phones will be smart some day. That means going cheaper.
This doesn't sully Apple's brand because they still have the high end stuff ( similar to iPods).
Apple has gone cheaper with a free 3GS or a $99 iPhone 4.
Apple has gone cheaper with a free 3GS or a $99 iPhone 4.
I think it is clear that Apple is trying to expand its horizons into different segments of the smartphone market. First they had only a premium product, then they expanded into the midline, and now they seem to want the low end market as well.
They absolutely won the race to the bottom, giving away iPhones for free. I'll be interested to see how the loss-leader strategy will work out for them. AFAIK, Apple has never tried to capture the bottom segment of any market, not until now.
Will they follow up with cheap computers too? Or will they continue with mid- to high-perfomance machines?
From what I have seen, it is likely that the Mac Pro line will either be abruptly discontinued, or will continue to die a slow death. The mid-line server products have been discontinued, AFAIK. And Apple has both declared war on Adobe, who was a big reason why professionals would buy high end Apple computers in the first place, and discontinued its own software marketed towards video professionals.
Will Apple cede the high end of the smartphone market to Android? Will they aim more firmly towards the mid-market and the low-end market, both in phones and computers too?
I think it is clear that Apple is trying to expand its horizons into different segments of the smartphone market. First they had only a premium product, then they expanded into the midline, and now they seem to want the low end market as well.
They absolutely won the race to the bottom, giving away iPhones for free. I'll be interested to see how the loss-leader strategy will work out for them. AFAIK, Apple has never tried to capture the bottom segment of any market, not until now.
Will they follow up with cheap computers too? Or will they continue with mid- to high-perfomance machines?
From what I have seen, it is likely that the Mac Pro line will either be abruptly discontinued, or will continue to die a slow death. The mid-line server products have been discontinued, AFAIK. And Apple has both declared war on Adobe, who was a big reason why professionals would buy high end Apple computers in the first place, and discontinued its own software marketed towards video professionals.
Will Apple cede the high end of the smartphone market to Android? Will they aim more firmly towards the mid-market and the low-end market, both in phones and computers too?
I hope they're giving away Macbook Pros fo' freee!!!!!!!
I think it is clear that Apple is trying to expand its horizons into different segments of the smartphone market. First they had only a premium product, then they expanded into the midline, and now they seem to want the low end market as well.
They absolutely won the race to the bottom, giving away iPhones for free. I'll be interested to see how the loss-leader strategy will work out for them. AFAIK, Apple has never tried to capture the bottom segment of any market, not until now.
Will they follow up with cheap computers too? Or will they continue with mid- to high-perfomance machines?
From what I have seen, it is likely that the Mac Pro line will either be abruptly discontinued, or will continue to die a slow death. The mid-line server products have been discontinued, AFAIK. And Apple has both declared war on Adobe, who was a big reason why professionals would buy high end Apple computers in the first place, and discontinued its own software marketed towards video professionals.
Will Apple cede the high end of the smartphone market to Android? Will they aim more firmly towards the mid-market and the low-end market, both in phones and computers too?
The free iPhone won't cost Apple anything, in fact it makes money since AT&T still has to pay Apple for the phone. AT&T makes money as well since it costs them less than a newer gen iPhone to subsidize. Same with the $99 iPhone 4.
How did you come up with that figure? Are you saying that if your monthly bill with a nexus one would be less than if you had an iphone?.
How did i come up with taht figure?
The cost Apple charged me for an iPhone 4 32gb
The cost vodafone would have charged me for an no-contract Nexus One (about the only local android device at the time) plus acquiring a larger micro SD card
I don't play a plan, so that value is irrelevant. That was the true, unsubsidised, price for the phones.
Check the profit! That is what counts!!
I don't work for them and i do not own their shares, what do i care about their profit. In fact, if i was purchasing, i would prefer as little as possible.
Nexus S is £514 on pay as you go.
iPhone 4S is £499 on pay as you go.
Galaxy S II is £549 on pay as you go.
Motorola Razr is £454 on pay as you go.
All RRP, VAT included.
On a contract they all start at £30 and go as high as £70 a month.
Please go away and check your numbers again
P.S.
These are all the latest phones. if you are going to shove an old HTC Desire HD in my face, be sure to get the original selling price, not the reduced price from Amazon nearly a year later
EU:
Apple iPhone 4S 16 = 750 EUR
Samsung Galaxy S2 16 = 430 EUR
No need to comment.
Samsung overtook Apple to become the world's biggest shipper of smartphones between July and September.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-15489523
How did i come up with taht figure?
The cost Apple charged me for an iPhone 4 32gb
The cost vodafone would have charged me for an no-contract Nexus One (about the only local android device at the time) plus acquiring a larger micro SD card
I don't play a plan, so that value is irrelevant. That was the true, unsubsidised, price for the phones.
The phones without wireless service is just an expensive ipod touch. Why don't you compare the costs of a 32gb ipod touch instead since you're not including wireless service. I believe it's around $299.
Check the profit! That is what counts!!
To whom? Not to me. I'm a consumer. I want to be looking after my interest not the manufacturer's. I never buy a phone on contract. On T-Mobile, I buy a phone (usually for significantly less on Craigslist from people who upgrade on contract and sell the phone for a $300-$400). I pay at least $20 less on my no contract price than a contract price and save at least $250-$300 per year.
if people didn't give a shit there would be much more movement between devices, but Apple users are sticky. So they care about the brand.
As an owner of multiple Apple devices, as well as other electronic brands it's not the Apple brand that is of interest to me, but rather how the devices interact with each other.
We have 2 year old relatives who use our Apple TV to watch movies, and stream movies from iPads.
There's no way they'd be able to do that with the WD Media server, or the PS3 Media Server. Those items are fine for me, and serve their purpose, but for the people who just want to enjoy their media easily, they're not. (ex. PS3 media server does not interact well with EYE-TV. I had to read the error logs, and search on google for the error message to get it working.)
So while Apple products continue to interact with each other with no issues, I'll stick with them.
ZTE are Chinese. Eventually everything will be Chinese.
Eventually? It seems like everything already is. Even Nokia seems to be made in China now. The only part of products that are not made in China anymore seems to be the idea for the product.