The carriers, and Carrier IQ, will, mostly rightly, take most of the heat for the Android root kit, privacy busting version of this spyware, but Google's hands are not entirely clean. Any phone branded as Android is approved by Google, down to the details of what software is installed on it, so Google knew this was happening and allowed it.
But, here's an interesting question, at least alluded to by others in this thread. Verizon has very directly stated that they do not use Carrier IQ and Carrier IQ is not found on Google Nexus phones. Apple have apparently developed their own in-house replacement for opt-in sharing of diagnostic and usage reports with them. Which begs the question...
What exactly are Google and Verizon using for this? Here's a bit from GigaOm quoted by Gruber:
Quote:
?Any report that Verizon Wireless uses Carrier IQ is patently false,? Verizon Wireless spokesperson Jeffrey Nelson said in an email. In an email follow-up, spokeswoman Debra Lewis elaborated. ?We did recently notify customers about new privacy programs; we were transparent about how customer information will be used and gave clear choices to customers about whether they want to participate in these programs,? she said (the privacy policy is here*). ?Carrier IQ is not involved in these programs.?
First there's the direct and adamant denial of association, then, following the portion I underlined above, there are weasel words where their spokesperson "elaborates", as GigaOm puts it. Wait, that's the sound a company makes when it realizes the shit is really going to hit the fan when everyone realizes you are using something else to do exactly the same thing.
So, Verizon isn't using Carrier IQ, but, from their own words, it's pretty clear they are using something that provides the same or similar functionality. Google is rather quiet on this issue, distancing itself, through "sources", from Carrier IQ, but, does any of us really believe that the Nexus phones are not desugned from the ground up to feed personal data into Google's gaping maw?
I welcome the investigations and law suits that will come from this, and I eagerly look forward to the forthcoming reports that will tell us exactly what the spyware used by Verizon and Google is named.
* If you read Verizon's privacy policy, it's so vaguely written that it basically allows anything and this sort of thing, common to all the parties involved in the CIQ scandal, will never stand up in court as consent from customers to be illegally wiretapped.
Anonymouse, IMO this report just adds more fuel to consumer demands that carriers, internet providers, mobile device manufacturers, software developers and governments all be transparent on what and how information is gathered on us. This is just a peek at a tiny sliver of the mountains of data that is harvested and stored on citizens activities and travel. In this case there's not yet any evidence that this particular program is following our every move, identifying specific users and logging every email, text message, download and phone call they make. The CIQ customers have all so far proclaimed there's only anonymous diagnostic-type logging that's being provided to them. Nothing of the "key-logging, read your emails and texts" sort.At the same time there's indications they could do so at some future point if they needed to. Carrier IQ is just one of probably dozens of different loggers in use on various electronic devices. Corporate secrecy efforts keep most of the others successfully hidden.
Personally I don't have any particular concern with what Google or Apple or Microsoft may know about me. . . yet (Facebook? They're an issue IMO). The problem for me is that there may come a time when governments decide that the personal data Apple/Google/Microsoft holds should be shared with them for security or "national interest" concerns. I'm afraid that may already be happening.
The aforementioned private companies have good business reasons (and hopefully ethical ones too) to keep that information to themselves and not use it for nefarious purposes, destroying the ability to continue efforts without user's trust. With that said, some of the smaller companies like Carrier IQ may not hold to the same "trust" concerns, instead trying to fly under the radar and out of public view.
Apple knows a lot about their users, probably much more than any of us can imagine. Don't kid yourselves. We know that Google, Microsoft, do too, but I doubt they all share and combine what they know to get a "bigger picture". Governments and world authorities have ways to bypass those constraints, and reasons, real or manufactured, to believe they have a duty to do so. Betcha Al Franken ain't goin' public and looking into that.
With assorted "authorities" having access to our credit and tax files, financial/banking/investment activities, on-line searches, mobile communications, travel, etc, we could soon become our own enemies.
... The problem for me is that there may come a time when governments decide that the personal data Apple/Google/Microsoft holds should be shared with them for security or "national interest" concerns. I'm afraid that may already be happening. ...
That time came long ago. And anti-freedom legislation like the so called "Patriot Act" (which ought really be called the "Give Up Your Freedom for the Illusion of Security Act"), with it's insidious "National Security Letters" only makes this "corporate data" less secure, and more damaging to privacy and freedom, neither of which can exist without the other.
Which is exactly why activities of companies like Google need to be severely curtailed. (Yes, Apple and your credit card company have a lot of data on you too, but it doesn't begin to approach the breadth of information that Google maintains on everyone who uses the web.) Facebook is highly problematic too, but, with Facebook, the citizen has the option not to participate. Google, with "analytics" software cast all over the web, is nearly impossible to avoid.
This is exactly the danger perceived when Congress shut down the Pentagon's Total Information Awareness program, and the fact that it's being implemented by private companies doesn't make it one bit less a threat to privacy, freedom, and our democracy. These corporate TIA databases essentially become one-stop shopping for the government when they do decide to engage in abuses of liberty and invasions of privacy, and present the same danger as if the government collected and maintained this information itself, rather than, effectively, by proxy.
The carriers, and Carrier IQ, will, mostly rightly, take most of the heat for the Android root kit, privacy busting version of this spyware, but Google's hands are not entirely clean. Any phone branded as Android is approved by Google, down to the details of what software is installed on it, so Google knew this was happening and allowed it.
I know you despise Google, but why do you insist on making stuff up? Google doesn't approve of every Android device. If they did, do you think the Kindle Fire would be on the market which removes most of Google's applications?
Quote:
Apple have apparently developed their own in-house replacement for opt-in sharing of diagnostic and usage reports with them. Which begs the question...
Which begs the question, why are you so okay with Apple gathering this data but when it comes to Google, it must be for nefarious purposes. Except that Google doesn't gather this data. The carriers gather this data.
Quote:
First there's the direct and adamant denial of association, then, following the portion I underlined above, there are weasel words where their spokesperson "elaborates", as GigaOm puts it. Wait, that's the sound a company makes when it realizes the shit is really going to hit the fan when everyone realizes you are using something else to do exactly the same thing.
Which comes back to the question, why is it okay for Apple to do this and not Verizon? Since that data is definitely going to Apple. The data Verizon collects isn't going to Google.
Quote:
So, Verizon isn't using Carrier IQ, but, from their own words, it's pretty clear they are using something that provides the same or similar functionality. Google is rather quiet on this issue, distancing itself, through "sources", from Carrier IQ, but, does any of us really believe that the Nexus phones are not desugned from the ground up to feed personal data into Google's gaping maw?
Well, actually yes. Not everyone has built up the tin foil hat, orbital mind control satellite conspiracy theories about Google that you have. Or are stupid enough to ignore just how much data Apple has about you. And how much data they continue to collect. I remember that report from earlier this year about Apple somehow changing App Store ratings based on user usage of the apps; Not a single person here questioned how Apple would get such data.
Quote:
I welcome the investigations and law suits that will come from this, and I eagerly look forward to the forthcoming reports that will tell us exactly what the spyware used by Verizon and Google is named.
And yet you don't care about the spyware that Apple is using? You already stated you believe that they've moved to an alternative version of CIQ-like software.
Here are the simple facts since you seem blind to them: Stock Android* NEVER included CIQ. Stock iOS has included CIQ but has started to include something different.
Feel free to make up whatever crap you want, but those are the facts.
* and since you seem to need this bit of info: Stock Android is the version that Google creates. It is the only version of Android they are responsible for. They aren't responsible for the changes Motorola or Samsung or whoever makes to the software.
I know you despise Google, but why do you insist on making stuff up? Google doesn't approve of every Android device. If they did, do you think the Kindle Fire would be on the market which removes most of Google's applications?
Which begs the question, why are you so okay with Apple gathering this data but when it comes to Google, it must be for nefarious purposes. Except that Google doesn't gather this data. The carriers gather this data.
Which comes back to the question, why is it okay for Apple to do this and not Verizon? Since that data is definitely going to Apple. The data Verizon collects isn't going to Google.
Well, actually yes. Not everyone has built up the tin foil hat, orbital mind control satellite conspiracy theories about Google that you have. Or are stupid enough to ignore just how much data Apple has about you. And how much data they continue to collect. I remember that report from earlier this year about Apple somehow changing App Store ratings based on user usage of the apps; Not a single person here questioned how Apple would get such data.
And yet you don't care about the spyware that Apple is using? You already stated you believe that they've moved to an alternative version of CIQ-like software.
Here are the simple facts since you seem blind to them: Stock Android* NEVER included CIQ. Stock iOS has included CIQ but has started to include something different.
Feel free to make up whatever crap you want, but those are the facts.
* and since you seem to need this bit of info: Stock Android is the version that Google creates. It is the only version of Android they are responsible for. They aren't responsible for the changes Motorola or Samsung or whoever makes to the software.
That's pretty amusing stuff you wrote there, but entirely mistaken. (Except for the part about me despising Google.)
Yes, Google does control the Android platform by arbitrarily controlling what an "Android" phone can have installed on it by default. That's what the Skyhook lawsuit is all about.
Several other points you don't understand what you are talking about:
- It's well established that CIQ on iOS is not (if it's still even active) the root kit that Google approved for Android phones. It's also opt-in on iOS, which it's not on Android. So all your points about "Apple is doing it too," "why is it OK for Apple but not Verizon," etc. are just a lot of hot air conflating entirely dissimilar things.
- Next, how do you know Google isn't getting this data? Not directly from your phone, and maybe not from CIQ, but no one knows what the carriers are doing with it. That point exactly is a major part of why this sort of spying is a problem: because we don't know what the spies are doing with the data. So, it's entirely possible that the carriers are passing it on to Google. I don't know that they are, but you don't know that they aren't
- Lastly, you seem to have been in such a passion that you were unable to understand several points:
It's a certainty that Google's Nexus phones come with some mechanism for reporting data back to Google. This, in at least a limited way, is a feature of every modern operating system. Google has indicated through "sources" that they don't use CIQ, but they haven't come out and said, "We don't include any software on our Nexus phones that sends any data back to us."
First of all, they can't make that statement, because it wouldn't be true. Lot's of software on the Nexus phones sends information back to Google. Lot's of software on iOS sends data back to Google. A high percentage of web sites send data about you back to Google. Ditto for Windows and Mac OS X software released by Google.
So, they'd either have to simply lie, or craft a convoluted press release that reeked of bullshit. Probably best to just keep their mouths shut.
But, considering how long people have been hacking their Android phones, and that this CIQ information is just coming out now, it's not unreasonable to suspect that Google's official silence and Verizon's weaselly words are indications that while they don't have CIQ on their phones, they have something equivalent, or nearly so.
Especially in the Verizon case, where they issued a flat denial, then, later, what practically amounts to a retraction of everything but the letter of their first statement, suspicions ought to be aroused that they are in fact doing exactly the same thing with different software. Otherwise, why any need to "elaborate", other than to cover their asses legally. Verizon is definitely using software equivalent to CIQ.
Google is admittedly in a difficult position. Their entire business model is spying on people for their customers. That's, by their own admission, the whole point of Android, to make sure they can keep spying so they can keep selling ads. They are collecting all kinds of information on people all the time. (For example, how many of you have given Google your user names and passwords to certain things? ) They operate through trojans, social engineering and "wiretaps" (Google Analytics) to get access to as much information on everyone as they can.
Clearly they can't issue a PR release saying they don't collect data, including passwords. No one knows if carriers are sharing data with them. They could have their own key logger on Nexus phones, which could be benign or highly malignant. Maybe Google doesn't really need CIQ because they already have most of that data anyway. Maybe they are keeping their mouths shut so the carriers don't start pointing fingers at them. Or, maybe they are just trying to lay low and keep attention away from the data collection we already know they do do.
Whatever the reason, Google's official silence means something. What exactly that is, we may not be sure, but we (which apparently does not include you) do know that they control and approve what software can be installed by default on "Android" branded phones, and the carriers aren't doing this without their knowledge.
Edit: oh, yeah, almost forgot, tin foil hats, hahaha, very funny stuff there.
Next, how do you know Google/APPLE isn't getting this data? Not directly from your phone, and maybe not from CIQ, but no one knows what the carriers are doing with it. That point exactly is a major part of why this sort of spying is a problem: because we don't know what the spies are doing with the data. So, it's entirely possible that the carriers are passing it on to Google/APPLE. I don't know that they are, but you don't know that they aren't
It's a certainty that Google's Nexus/APPLE'S IPHONE come with some mechanism for reporting data back to Google/APPLE.
. . .they haven't come out and said, "We don't include any software on our Nexus phones/APPLE IPHONES that sends any data back to us."
First of all, they can't make that statement, because it wouldn't be true.
(Fixed those parts for you)
Whatever the reason, Google's official silence means something.
Anonymouse, Google hasn't been silent, and you're well aware that since you already made mention. You can also add Apple to the list of big companies that hasn't denied using some other data retrieval modus to "spy" on their users. Neither company is volunteering their methods of data collection, nor all their sources. I doubt there's entirely clean hands at either of them.
Anonymouse, Google hasn't been silent, and you're well aware that since you already made mention. You can also add Apple to the list of big companies that hasn't denied using some other data retrieval modus to "spy" on their users. Neither company is volunteering their methods of data collection, nor all their sources. I doubt there's entirely clean hands at either of them.
Well, the only reports I have seen on this are through "sources at Google", I haven't seen any official statement.
As an interesting aside, Google Analytics is an interesting piece of spyware that I think not enough attention is paid to as such. It's sort of a multi-layered trojan-botnet that allows Google to collect intelligence on both businesses and end users. By getting companies to install this on their web sites with promises of benefits to them, Google gets to track their business, as well as tracking identifiable consumers. So, we have this software that has spread to thousands of websites, allowing it to be installed, at least temporarily, on millions of computers, the sole purpose of which, from Google's perspective, is to track what companies and consumers are doing on the web.
Well, the only reports I have seen on this are through "sources at Google", I haven't seen any official statement. . .
From CBS:
A Google spokesperson provides the following statement: "We do not have an affiliation with CarrierIQ. Android is an open source effort and we do not control how carriers or OEMs customize their devices."
A Google spokesperson provides the following statement: "We do not have an affiliation with CarrierIQ. Android is an open source effort and we do not control how carriers or OEMs customize their devices."
Well, as a whole, that's obviously a lie since they forced OEMs not to use Skyhook location services if they wanted to call it Android.
So, what are we to believe. The truth is almost certainly that Google knew carriers were using CIQ, didn't care, and that Google uses its own software to do the same or similar activity, in other words, what I've been saying all along. Notice they didn't say they weren't doing anything similar. But, it's sad when a company can't help lying in its public statements.
Well, as a whole, that's obviously a lie since they forced OEMs not to use Skyhook location services if they wanted to call it Android.
So, what are we to believe. The truth is almost certainly that Google knew carriers were using CIQ, didn't care, and that Google uses its own software to do the same or similar activity, in other words, what I've been saying all along. Notice they didn't say they weren't doing anything similar. But, it's sad when a company can't help lying in its public statements.
So that you can sleep well at night, you should know that at least Google will be doing a Privacy Audit next year, and every two years thereafter, conducted by an independent third party. That audit will ensure that all Personally Identifiable Information (PII) such as Social Security numbers, addresses, phone numbers, employment information, photos, purchase histories, etc. is secured, not used in a manner not specifically and clearly authorized by the individual, and in full compliance with privacy laws and stated policies.
The audit will go on to determine that PII gathering is limited to specific purposes, requires user agreement, provides methods for complaints to be heard and options to have PII removed. It will confirm that users are fully advised on what PII is recorded and in what ways it may be used. It will verify that only specifically authorized agents for the company have access to PII. Any parties who may have access to your Personally Identifiable Information must be clearly stated, with the audit verifying that strict controls are in place and poilcies have been followed.
It will confirm that methods are in place to completely eliminate collected PII once it has served it's purpose, and check to see those policies are followed in a consistent and verifiable way.
In a nutshell Anonymouse, an outside party approved by the FTC is going to have complete access to verify that Google isn't sneaking around behind your back reading your email, listening to your phone calls, compiling a secret file on you and your family while you remain blissfully unaware. They're going to make sure that what Google says they collect, what they do collect, and what they do with what they collected are all on the same page and in agreement with what they told you they do.
Wouldn't it be great if Apple, Microsoft, ATT, Verizon and other gatherers of PII would conduct their own Privacy Audits to give their customers assurance that the Personally Identifiable Information they have on you is certifiably disclosed, protected, and collected with your express permission, with all parties who may access your personal info plainly stated?
Well, as a whole, that's obviously a lie since they forced OEMs not to use Skyhook location services if they wanted to call it Android.
I thought they were alleged to have told OEMS to dump Skyhook if they wanted to offer Google apps. There was no claimed constraints on using Android as the OS was there, only Google services? Afterall, Amazon is using Android and I doubt Google assisted or approved them. They just don't get certified as compliant with Google services.
Now if you were to ask me if Google was aware that some OEM's were installing Carrier IQ at carrier's behest, I'd say absolutely yes. Google is well aware of what is installed at root-level on Android devices according to what I've read. If it's a legitimate bug-quashing user-experience-improvement effort I don't see why they would make much of a stink about it and getting into a pissing match with the carriers. In hindsight perhaps they should have. That's just my guess.
I thought they were alleged to have told OEMS to dump Skyhook if they wanted to offer Google apps. There was no claimed constraints on using Android as the OS was there, only Google services? Afterall, Amazon is using Android and I doubt Google assisted or approved them. They just don't get certified as compliant with Google services.
Now if you were to ask me if Google was aware that some OEM's were installing Carrier IQ at carrier's behest, I'd say absolutely yes. Google is well aware of what is installed at root-level on Android devices according to what I've read. If it's a legitimate bug-quashing user-experience-improvement effort I don't see why they would make much of a stink about it and getting into a pissing match with the carriers. In hindsight perhaps they should have. That's just my guess.
Amazon is not using "Android", they are using a fork of Android that can't be labeled "Android". You know that, yet you chose to dishonestly misrepresent the facts. You just can't help yourself either, can you?
So that you can sleep well at night, you should know that at least Google will be doing a Privacy Audit next year, and every two years thereafter, conducted by an independent third party. ...
The only reason they are doing that is that they got in trouble with the Feds for privacy violations. Nice try, again.
The only reason they are doing that is that they got in trouble with the Feds for privacy violations. Nice try, again.
Is it less or more assurance that they're doing the right thing with your information if the Feds are involved? Why do you care more about who made it happen than the audit itself? I would think you'd rest easier since it's been such a concern of yours. You wouldn't have a problem with Apple, Microsoft and others doing the same would you, whether it was voluntary or not? Sounds more like you've just made up your mind to be disagreeable.
As for Amazon and Android, v2.3 specifically, being used as the OS on the Kindle Fire, at least make an attempt at honesty. You spend enough time here and know the facts. It's been reported by a number of sources to be Android driven, even by DED himself. It's not Google-certified and thus doesn't get their Google Apps blessing. That's the difference. It's still using stock Android 2.3 at it's core, open-sourced from Google. Apple could use it if they wish, just as they can play with ICS/Android 4.x. The source code's been released.
Getting back to the focus of the thread, I personally welcome any efforts at transparancy by Google, Apple, etc. Having an outside party verify that any personally identifiable information is handled securely and in compliance with the permissions I've given them and no more can only be a good thing. You won't need to worry yourself so much that Google is keeping track of you specifically in ways that violate laws, policies or permissions.
If you want to put your tin-foil hat back on, you can't say the same for Apple hiding behind their thick walls of secrecy. Just what are they tracking? Are they telling you the truth about it and how would you know? What DO they know and what are they doing with it? Who else are they giving it to? Care to answer any of those Anonymouse?
Is it less or more assurance that they're doing the right thing with your information if the Feds are involved? Why do you care more about who made it happen than the audit itself?
No, the Feds are involved because they got caught not doing the right thing. And, frankly, I don't have a lot of faith in the ability of auditors. Banks get audited all the time and auditors rarely find problems that are there.
But, I care about who made it happen because you were trying to imply that Google, who ultimately pays your salary, whether you work for them directly or some PR company, was doing this out of the pureness of their hearts, not because they got busted by the Feds. In other words, I felt it necessary to point out yet another of your lies.
That reflects on your character, which is not something you should be proud of, but, your lies also reflect on Google's character, so it's important that people see clearly every instance of this company's deceit and understand that with Google, CIQ is probably the least of one's worries.
That reflects on your character, which is not something you should be proud of, but, your lies also reflect on Google's character, so it's important that people see clearly every instance of this company's deceit and understand that with Google, CIQ is probably the least of one's worries.[/QUOTE]
Lies. . . It's an easy word to write isn't it?
If you didn't have any well-reasoned reply and no longer wanted to continue the discussion you should have just said so rather than going on your little ad-hom adventure. Probably best to go back to my old policy of overlooking most of your vitriol as unimportant and not worthy of serious replies or attempts at intelligent discussion. Some people can have a calm and respectful disagreement and others feel better with name-calling. I try to stay in the first category.
If you didn't have any well-reasoned reply and no longer wanted to continue the discussion you should have just said so rather than going on your little ad-hom adventure. Probably best to go back to my old policy of overlooking most of your vitriol as unimportant and not worthy of serious replies or attempts at intelligent discussion. Some people can have a calm and respectful disagreement and others feel better with name-calling. I try to stay in the first category.
Well, you know, if you weren't habitually dishonest, there would be no need to point out that you are lying. It's not like I made you lie, it was your choice.
Comments
Apple says: We used Carrier IQ but are removing it from our devices.
AI reader translation: Apple is a saint! Always looking out the for consumer!
Doesn't translate as: We are longer using CIQ because we are now using different software to record this data.
Google says: CIQ is not part of stock Android.
AI reader translation: Google is EVIL! SATAN! They are evil for not preventing modifications to their open source OS.
Doesn't translate as: CIQ is not part of stock Android.
Nokia says: CIQ does not ship on our devices.
AI reader translation: But, but that just means that they're letting the carriers add it themselves later.
Doesn't translate as: CIQ does not ship on our devices.
Microsoft says: CIQ is not part of the Windows Phone OS.
AI reader translation: But, but that just means that they're letting the carriers add it themselves later.
Doesn't translate as: CIQ is not part of the Windows Phone OS.
Verizon says: We don't use CIQ.
AI reader translation: That just means you're using something else on those dirty, evil Android devices.
Doesn't translate as: We don't use CIQ.
Think that about sums up the responses thus far. Keep 'em coming. I need a few good laughs on cold Friday morning.
But, here's an interesting question, at least alluded to by others in this thread. Verizon has very directly stated that they do not use Carrier IQ and Carrier IQ is not found on Google Nexus phones. Apple have apparently developed their own in-house replacement for opt-in sharing of diagnostic and usage reports with them. Which begs the question...
What exactly are Google and Verizon using for this? Here's a bit from GigaOm quoted by Gruber:
?Any report that Verizon Wireless uses Carrier IQ is patently false,? Verizon Wireless spokesperson Jeffrey Nelson said in an email. In an email follow-up, spokeswoman Debra Lewis elaborated. ?We did recently notify customers about new privacy programs; we were transparent about how customer information will be used and gave clear choices to customers about whether they want to participate in these programs,? she said (the privacy policy is here*). ?Carrier IQ is not involved in these programs.?
First there's the direct and adamant denial of association, then, following the portion I underlined above, there are weasel words where their spokesperson "elaborates", as GigaOm puts it. Wait, that's the sound a company makes when it realizes the shit is really going to hit the fan when everyone realizes you are using something else to do exactly the same thing.
So, Verizon isn't using Carrier IQ, but, from their own words, it's pretty clear they are using something that provides the same or similar functionality. Google is rather quiet on this issue, distancing itself, through "sources", from Carrier IQ, but, does any of us really believe that the Nexus phones are not desugned from the ground up to feed personal data into Google's gaping maw?
I welcome the investigations and law suits that will come from this, and I eagerly look forward to the forthcoming reports that will tell us exactly what the spyware used by Verizon and Google is named.
* If you read Verizon's privacy policy, it's so vaguely written that it basically allows anything and this sort of thing, common to all the parties involved in the CIQ scandal, will never stand up in court as consent from customers to be illegally wiretapped.
Personally I don't have any particular concern with what Google or Apple or Microsoft may know about me. . . yet (Facebook? They're an issue IMO). The problem for me is that there may come a time when governments decide that the personal data Apple/Google/Microsoft holds should be shared with them for security or "national interest" concerns. I'm afraid that may already be happening.
The aforementioned private companies have good business reasons (and hopefully ethical ones too) to keep that information to themselves and not use it for nefarious purposes, destroying the ability to continue efforts without user's trust. With that said, some of the smaller companies like Carrier IQ may not hold to the same "trust" concerns, instead trying to fly under the radar and out of public view.
Apple knows a lot about their users, probably much more than any of us can imagine. Don't kid yourselves. We know that Google, Microsoft, do too, but I doubt they all share and combine what they know to get a "bigger picture". Governments and world authorities have ways to bypass those constraints, and reasons, real or manufactured, to believe they have a duty to do so. Betcha Al Franken ain't goin' public and looking into that.
With assorted "authorities" having access to our credit and tax files, financial/banking/investment activities, on-line searches, mobile communications, travel, etc, we could soon become our own enemies.
Rant over.
... The problem for me is that there may come a time when governments decide that the personal data Apple/Google/Microsoft holds should be shared with them for security or "national interest" concerns. I'm afraid that may already be happening. ...
That time came long ago. And anti-freedom legislation like the so called "Patriot Act" (which ought really be called the "Give Up Your Freedom for the Illusion of Security Act"), with it's insidious "National Security Letters" only makes this "corporate data" less secure, and more damaging to privacy and freedom, neither of which can exist without the other.
Which is exactly why activities of companies like Google need to be severely curtailed. (Yes, Apple and your credit card company have a lot of data on you too, but it doesn't begin to approach the breadth of information that Google maintains on everyone who uses the web.) Facebook is highly problematic too, but, with Facebook, the citizen has the option not to participate. Google, with "analytics" software cast all over the web, is nearly impossible to avoid.
This is exactly the danger perceived when Congress shut down the Pentagon's Total Information Awareness program, and the fact that it's being implemented by private companies doesn't make it one bit less a threat to privacy, freedom, and our democracy. These corporate TIA databases essentially become one-stop shopping for the government when they do decide to engage in abuses of liberty and invasions of privacy, and present the same danger as if the government collected and maintained this information itself, rather than, effectively, by proxy.
The carriers, and Carrier IQ, will, mostly rightly, take most of the heat for the Android root kit, privacy busting version of this spyware, but Google's hands are not entirely clean. Any phone branded as Android is approved by Google, down to the details of what software is installed on it, so Google knew this was happening and allowed it.
I know you despise Google, but why do you insist on making stuff up? Google doesn't approve of every Android device. If they did, do you think the Kindle Fire would be on the market which removes most of Google's applications?
Apple have apparently developed their own in-house replacement for opt-in sharing of diagnostic and usage reports with them. Which begs the question...
Which begs the question, why are you so okay with Apple gathering this data but when it comes to Google, it must be for nefarious purposes. Except that Google doesn't gather this data. The carriers gather this data.
First there's the direct and adamant denial of association, then, following the portion I underlined above, there are weasel words where their spokesperson "elaborates", as GigaOm puts it. Wait, that's the sound a company makes when it realizes the shit is really going to hit the fan when everyone realizes you are using something else to do exactly the same thing.
Which comes back to the question, why is it okay for Apple to do this and not Verizon? Since that data is definitely going to Apple. The data Verizon collects isn't going to Google.
So, Verizon isn't using Carrier IQ, but, from their own words, it's pretty clear they are using something that provides the same or similar functionality. Google is rather quiet on this issue, distancing itself, through "sources", from Carrier IQ, but, does any of us really believe that the Nexus phones are not desugned from the ground up to feed personal data into Google's gaping maw?
Well, actually yes. Not everyone has built up the tin foil hat, orbital mind control satellite conspiracy theories about Google that you have. Or are stupid enough to ignore just how much data Apple has about you. And how much data they continue to collect. I remember that report from earlier this year about Apple somehow changing App Store ratings based on user usage of the apps; Not a single person here questioned how Apple would get such data.
I welcome the investigations and law suits that will come from this, and I eagerly look forward to the forthcoming reports that will tell us exactly what the spyware used by Verizon and Google is named.
And yet you don't care about the spyware that Apple is using? You already stated you believe that they've moved to an alternative version of CIQ-like software.
Here are the simple facts since you seem blind to them: Stock Android* NEVER included CIQ. Stock iOS has included CIQ but has started to include something different.
Feel free to make up whatever crap you want, but those are the facts.
* and since you seem to need this bit of info: Stock Android is the version that Google creates. It is the only version of Android they are responsible for. They aren't responsible for the changes Motorola or Samsung or whoever makes to the software.
I know you despise Google, but why do you insist on making stuff up? Google doesn't approve of every Android device. If they did, do you think the Kindle Fire would be on the market which removes most of Google's applications?
Which begs the question, why are you so okay with Apple gathering this data but when it comes to Google, it must be for nefarious purposes. Except that Google doesn't gather this data. The carriers gather this data.
Which comes back to the question, why is it okay for Apple to do this and not Verizon? Since that data is definitely going to Apple. The data Verizon collects isn't going to Google.
Well, actually yes. Not everyone has built up the tin foil hat, orbital mind control satellite conspiracy theories about Google that you have. Or are stupid enough to ignore just how much data Apple has about you. And how much data they continue to collect. I remember that report from earlier this year about Apple somehow changing App Store ratings based on user usage of the apps; Not a single person here questioned how Apple would get such data.
And yet you don't care about the spyware that Apple is using? You already stated you believe that they've moved to an alternative version of CIQ-like software.
Here are the simple facts since you seem blind to them: Stock Android* NEVER included CIQ. Stock iOS has included CIQ but has started to include something different.
Feel free to make up whatever crap you want, but those are the facts.
* and since you seem to need this bit of info: Stock Android is the version that Google creates. It is the only version of Android they are responsible for. They aren't responsible for the changes Motorola or Samsung or whoever makes to the software.
That's pretty amusing stuff you wrote there, but entirely mistaken. (Except for the part about me despising Google.)
Yes, Google does control the Android platform by arbitrarily controlling what an "Android" phone can have installed on it by default. That's what the Skyhook lawsuit is all about.
Several other points you don't understand what you are talking about:
- It's well established that CIQ on iOS is not (if it's still even active) the root kit that Google approved for Android phones. It's also opt-in on iOS, which it's not on Android. So all your points about "Apple is doing it too," "why is it OK for Apple but not Verizon," etc. are just a lot of hot air conflating entirely dissimilar things.
- Next, how do you know Google isn't getting this data? Not directly from your phone, and maybe not from CIQ, but no one knows what the carriers are doing with it. That point exactly is a major part of why this sort of spying is a problem: because we don't know what the spies are doing with the data. So, it's entirely possible that the carriers are passing it on to Google. I don't know that they are, but you don't know that they aren't
- Lastly, you seem to have been in such a passion that you were unable to understand several points:
It's a certainty that Google's Nexus phones come with some mechanism for reporting data back to Google. This, in at least a limited way, is a feature of every modern operating system. Google has indicated through "sources" that they don't use CIQ, but they haven't come out and said, "We don't include any software on our Nexus phones that sends any data back to us."
First of all, they can't make that statement, because it wouldn't be true. Lot's of software on the Nexus phones sends information back to Google. Lot's of software on iOS sends data back to Google. A high percentage of web sites send data about you back to Google. Ditto for Windows and Mac OS X software released by Google.
So, they'd either have to simply lie, or craft a convoluted press release that reeked of bullshit. Probably best to just keep their mouths shut.
But, considering how long people have been hacking their Android phones, and that this CIQ information is just coming out now, it's not unreasonable to suspect that Google's official silence and Verizon's weaselly words are indications that while they don't have CIQ on their phones, they have something equivalent, or nearly so.
Especially in the Verizon case, where they issued a flat denial, then, later, what practically amounts to a retraction of everything but the letter of their first statement, suspicions ought to be aroused that they are in fact doing exactly the same thing with different software. Otherwise, why any need to "elaborate", other than to cover their asses legally. Verizon is definitely using software equivalent to CIQ.
Google is admittedly in a difficult position. Their entire business model is spying on people for their customers. That's, by their own admission, the whole point of Android, to make sure they can keep spying so they can keep selling ads. They are collecting all kinds of information on people all the time. (For example, how many of you have given Google your user names and passwords to certain things? ) They operate through trojans, social engineering and "wiretaps" (Google Analytics) to get access to as much information on everyone as they can.
Clearly they can't issue a PR release saying they don't collect data, including passwords. No one knows if carriers are sharing data with them. They could have their own key logger on Nexus phones, which could be benign or highly malignant. Maybe Google doesn't really need CIQ because they already have most of that data anyway. Maybe they are keeping their mouths shut so the carriers don't start pointing fingers at them. Or, maybe they are just trying to lay low and keep attention away from the data collection we already know they do do.
Whatever the reason, Google's official silence means something. What exactly that is, we may not be sure, but we (which apparently does not include you) do know that they control and approve what software can be installed by default on "Android" branded phones, and the carriers aren't doing this without their knowledge.
Edit: oh, yeah, almost forgot, tin foil hats, hahaha, very funny stuff there.
Next, how do you know Google/APPLE isn't getting this data? Not directly from your phone, and maybe not from CIQ, but no one knows what the carriers are doing with it. That point exactly is a major part of why this sort of spying is a problem: because we don't know what the spies are doing with the data. So, it's entirely possible that the carriers are passing it on to Google/APPLE. I don't know that they are, but you don't know that they aren't
It's a certainty that Google's Nexus/APPLE'S IPHONE come with some mechanism for reporting data back to Google/APPLE.
. . .they haven't come out and said, "We don't include any software on our Nexus phones/APPLE IPHONES that sends any data back to us."
First of all, they can't make that statement, because it wouldn't be true.
(Fixed those parts for you)
Whatever the reason, Google's official silence means something.
Anonymouse, Google hasn't been silent, and you're well aware that since you already made mention. You can also add Apple to the list of big companies that hasn't denied using some other data retrieval modus to "spy" on their users. Neither company is volunteering their methods of data collection, nor all their sources. I doubt there's entirely clean hands at either of them.
Anonymouse, Google hasn't been silent, and you're well aware that since you already made mention. You can also add Apple to the list of big companies that hasn't denied using some other data retrieval modus to "spy" on their users. Neither company is volunteering their methods of data collection, nor all their sources. I doubt there's entirely clean hands at either of them.
Well, the only reports I have seen on this are through "sources at Google", I haven't seen any official statement.
As an interesting aside, Google Analytics is an interesting piece of spyware that I think not enough attention is paid to as such. It's sort of a multi-layered trojan-botnet that allows Google to collect intelligence on both businesses and end users. By getting companies to install this on their web sites with promises of benefits to them, Google gets to track their business, as well as tracking identifiable consumers. So, we have this software that has spread to thousands of websites, allowing it to be installed, at least temporarily, on millions of computers, the sole purpose of which, from Google's perspective, is to track what companies and consumers are doing on the web.
Well, the only reports I have seen on this are through "sources at Google", I haven't seen any official statement. . .
From CBS:
A Google spokesperson provides the following statement: "We do not have an affiliation with CarrierIQ. Android is an open source effort and we do not control how carriers or OEMs customize their devices."
From CBS:
A Google spokesperson provides the following statement: "We do not have an affiliation with CarrierIQ. Android is an open source effort and we do not control how carriers or OEMs customize their devices."
Well, as a whole, that's obviously a lie since they forced OEMs not to use Skyhook location services if they wanted to call it Android.
So, what are we to believe. The truth is almost certainly that Google knew carriers were using CIQ, didn't care, and that Google uses its own software to do the same or similar activity, in other words, what I've been saying all along. Notice they didn't say they weren't doing anything similar. But, it's sad when a company can't help lying in its public statements.
Well, as a whole, that's obviously a lie since they forced OEMs not to use Skyhook location services if they wanted to call it Android.
So, what are we to believe. The truth is almost certainly that Google knew carriers were using CIQ, didn't care, and that Google uses its own software to do the same or similar activity, in other words, what I've been saying all along. Notice they didn't say they weren't doing anything similar. But, it's sad when a company can't help lying in its public statements.
So that you can sleep well at night, you should know that at least Google will be doing a Privacy Audit next year, and every two years thereafter, conducted by an independent third party. That audit will ensure that all Personally Identifiable Information (PII) such as Social Security numbers, addresses, phone numbers, employment information, photos, purchase histories, etc. is secured, not used in a manner not specifically and clearly authorized by the individual, and in full compliance with privacy laws and stated policies.
The audit will go on to determine that PII gathering is limited to specific purposes, requires user agreement, provides methods for complaints to be heard and options to have PII removed. It will confirm that users are fully advised on what PII is recorded and in what ways it may be used. It will verify that only specifically authorized agents for the company have access to PII. Any parties who may have access to your Personally Identifiable Information must be clearly stated, with the audit verifying that strict controls are in place and poilcies have been followed.
It will confirm that methods are in place to completely eliminate collected PII once it has served it's purpose, and check to see those policies are followed in a consistent and verifiable way.
In a nutshell Anonymouse, an outside party approved by the FTC is going to have complete access to verify that Google isn't sneaking around behind your back reading your email, listening to your phone calls, compiling a secret file on you and your family while you remain blissfully unaware. They're going to make sure that what Google says they collect, what they do collect, and what they do with what they collected are all on the same page and in agreement with what they told you they do.
Wouldn't it be great if Apple, Microsoft, ATT, Verizon and other gatherers of PII would conduct their own Privacy Audits to give their customers assurance that the Personally Identifiable Information they have on you is certifiably disclosed, protected, and collected with your express permission, with all parties who may access your personal info plainly stated?
Well, as a whole, that's obviously a lie since they forced OEMs not to use Skyhook location services if they wanted to call it Android.
I thought they were alleged to have told OEMS to dump Skyhook if they wanted to offer Google apps. There was no claimed constraints on using Android as the OS was there, only Google services? Afterall, Amazon is using Android and I doubt Google assisted or approved them. They just don't get certified as compliant with Google services.
Now if you were to ask me if Google was aware that some OEM's were installing Carrier IQ at carrier's behest, I'd say absolutely yes. Google is well aware of what is installed at root-level on Android devices according to what I've read. If it's a legitimate bug-quashing user-experience-improvement effort I don't see why they would make much of a stink about it and getting into a pissing match with the carriers. In hindsight perhaps they should have. That's just my guess.
I thought they were alleged to have told OEMS to dump Skyhook if they wanted to offer Google apps. There was no claimed constraints on using Android as the OS was there, only Google services? Afterall, Amazon is using Android and I doubt Google assisted or approved them. They just don't get certified as compliant with Google services.
Now if you were to ask me if Google was aware that some OEM's were installing Carrier IQ at carrier's behest, I'd say absolutely yes. Google is well aware of what is installed at root-level on Android devices according to what I've read. If it's a legitimate bug-quashing user-experience-improvement effort I don't see why they would make much of a stink about it and getting into a pissing match with the carriers. In hindsight perhaps they should have. That's just my guess.
Amazon is not using "Android", they are using a fork of Android that can't be labeled "Android". You know that, yet you chose to dishonestly misrepresent the facts. You just can't help yourself either, can you?
So that you can sleep well at night, you should know that at least Google will be doing a Privacy Audit next year, and every two years thereafter, conducted by an independent third party. ...
The only reason they are doing that is that they got in trouble with the Feds for privacy violations. Nice try, again.
The only reason they are doing that is that they got in trouble with the Feds for privacy violations. Nice try, again.
Is it less or more assurance that they're doing the right thing with your information if the Feds are involved? Why do you care more about who made it happen than the audit itself? I would think you'd rest easier since it's been such a concern of yours. You wouldn't have a problem with Apple, Microsoft and others doing the same would you, whether it was voluntary or not? Sounds more like you've just made up your mind to be disagreeable.
As for Amazon and Android, v2.3 specifically, being used as the OS on the Kindle Fire, at least make an attempt at honesty. You spend enough time here and know the facts. It's been reported by a number of sources to be Android driven, even by DED himself. It's not Google-certified and thus doesn't get their Google Apps blessing. That's the difference. It's still using stock Android 2.3 at it's core, open-sourced from Google. Apple could use it if they wish, just as they can play with ICS/Android 4.x. The source code's been released.
Getting back to the focus of the thread, I personally welcome any efforts at transparancy by Google, Apple, etc. Having an outside party verify that any personally identifiable information is handled securely and in compliance with the permissions I've given them and no more can only be a good thing. You won't need to worry yourself so much that Google is keeping track of you specifically in ways that violate laws, policies or permissions.
If you want to put your tin-foil hat back on, you can't say the same for Apple hiding behind their thick walls of secrecy. Just what are they tracking? Are they telling you the truth about it and how would you know? What DO they know and what are they doing with it? Who else are they giving it to? Care to answer any of those Anonymouse?
OK, tin-foil hat off now. . .
Is it less or more assurance that they're doing the right thing with your information if the Feds are involved? Why do you care more about who made it happen than the audit itself?
No, the Feds are involved because they got caught not doing the right thing. And, frankly, I don't have a lot of faith in the ability of auditors. Banks get audited all the time and auditors rarely find problems that are there.
But, I care about who made it happen because you were trying to imply that Google, who ultimately pays your salary, whether you work for them directly or some PR company, was doing this out of the pureness of their hearts, not because they got busted by the Feds. In other words, I felt it necessary to point out yet another of your lies.
That reflects on your character, which is not something you should be proud of, but, your lies also reflect on Google's character, so it's important that people see clearly every instance of this company's deceit and understand that with Google, CIQ is probably the least of one's worries.
Lies. . . It's an easy word to write isn't it?
If you didn't have any well-reasoned reply and no longer wanted to continue the discussion you should have just said so rather than going on your little ad-hom adventure. Probably best to go back to my old policy of overlooking most of your vitriol as unimportant and not worthy of serious replies or attempts at intelligent discussion. Some people can have a calm and respectful disagreement and others feel better with name-calling. I try to stay in the first category.
Lies. . . It's an easy word to write isn't it?
If you didn't have any well-reasoned reply and no longer wanted to continue the discussion you should have just said so rather than going on your little ad-hom adventure. Probably best to go back to my old policy of overlooking most of your vitriol as unimportant and not worthy of serious replies or attempts at intelligent discussion. Some people can have a calm and respectful disagreement and others feel better with name-calling. I try to stay in the first category.
Well, you know, if you weren't habitually dishonest, there would be no need to point out that you are lying. It's not like I made you lie, it was your choice.