You obviously never even used/touched, or likely seen a Kindle Fire, because it does, in fact, have a multitouch display... one that works very well indeed.
The conversation has lost context at this point. The claim is that Kindle Fire only implements duo-touch rather than multitouch. In the short term it allows Amazon to field a device for the 2011 holiday season but it might be a kludge that inhibits smooth development of more capable devices in the future. This sort of issue was at the heart of what held back the tablet market for over a decade. Merely porting the mouse pointing device to a single touch was a greatly diminished design choice for Windows tablets and left developers without a compelling reason to pursue apps that improved over the PC in user experience. Hence ten years of stagnation. The question here is if duo-touch is a sufficient improvement.
It's interesting how the same posters that are so quick to point out that some overly large Android-based phone has a higher resolution than the iPhone (despite being a considerably lower PPI) are now claiming tht dual-point touch is just as useful as eleven-point touch.
I'd love to see where I said a android phone is better than an iPhone or that the resolution was better. I'd also love to see where anyone said the multitouch on a kindle is just as useful as an iPad multitouch.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Baka-Dubbs
Long time reader, first time poster. I read these forums all the time but have thus far refrained from posting, but the rhetoric being used is driving me crazy. So, my question is, where did anyone say that 2 point multi touch is superior to 11 point multi touch? I must have missed that claim. 2 IS multi, but the use of multi is all about context. If i were describing my macbook, it has a dual core processor. Describing my desktop, it has a hexa-core processor. In either statement i could have correctly substituted multi, but I wanted to be more descriptive. So basically, your right, it is a dual-point touch screen. And DaHarder is right, it is a multi-touch screen. The fact that this is something even worth arguing is astounding.
I said the exact same thing. They want to argue an opinion that isnt even correct just because they think it should be called something else. Even though they're wrong. Its pathetic.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DocNo42
You may not have, but I've already experienced it. In a discussion amongst friends and family, when I tried to point out that Amazon's definition of mulit-touch isn't the same as Apple's, I was ridiculed for being a fanboi. I then pointed out:
and told the friends I was talking with don't come to me for support or complaining when you buy a Fire and expect an iPad experience because of some idiotic review they read on the Internet.
No one on this forum would argue the fire has equal Or better touch capabilities. It's in a different class- and one that has a market IMO. I'd take a fire over a touch if I wasn't tied to the apple ecosystem and/or I was tied into amazon strongly (which I'm already a prime member of).
It's Wikipedia- it mentions 2 or more points = multitouch. But this guy cant be wrong- he's the smartest person ever. Just ask him.
If you ever examined the API's for multitouch on iOS you might understand that stopping at duo-touch means they have not done the heavy lifting required to provide something better than putting lipstick on the pig (single point mouse style interface in this example).
When Apple came out with its new OS for the iPhone back in 2007 it was immediately obvious to anyone with access to the API's that this was not a slapped together shell around the old mouse/keyboard UI. Years of fundamental rethinking and rewriting from the ground up had been devoted before the first iPhone, let alone iPad, was shipped. Companies like Amazon were caught flat footed and have scrambled to slap together whatever they can to take advantage of all the heat that has been generated. They can all buy the same components from hardware suppliers but it will take years for them to evolve their software stacks to take full advantage of the new UI that has emerged.
That's two separate and distinct touches, hence the moniker 'dual-touch'.
I can see DaHarder defending the LG Prada — the phone Apple stole all their IP from¡ — saying he can touch it with multiple fingers so it, too, is multi-touch.
Does anybody else see the delicious irony that the #2 tablet behind the iPad is a mini tablet running a modified Android OS sporting an extremely closed ecosystem?
What's delicious irony is that (based on Amazon's own star ratting system) is that 77.9% rate the Amazon Fire Fair/Poor (1 and 2 stars summed).
They are already selling at a loss, and will realize further loss on the majority sold via returns, refurbishment and reshippping.
If Amazon doesn't release any figures, how is anybody going to know the truth? Nobody can trust any analysts.
And I wonder if the estimates include all of the returns?
If Amazon only sells 2 million, I bet they'll say that they've sold multiple millions of tablets.
Technically anything greater than 1 could be defined as millions.
If it's impressive I think Amazon will release numbers. After all it strikes at the heart of making a multimedia device look like a better ecosystem to enter. With the Kindle that's not really an issue. Plus, of they want I further their tablet offerings with larger devices, as rumored, it would be good to establish a thriving developer and user ecosystem.
Everyone makes projections about future sales, even Apple. Some of it is based on financial trends, some of it is based on voodoo. What we do know is the Kindle Fire is definitely generating more interest in tablets than any other non-iPad device to date. Whether or not that translates into sales, and more importantly, services is a whole other story.
No, it's not an iPad. It also isn't trying to be. It's trying to be a focused portal to Amazon's digital services at a price that's less than half the price of the *cheapest* iPad. And you know, it works. It has found a niche that allows it to coexist nicely in an iPad world. The Kindle Fire doesn't need to "beat" the iPad in sales in order to succeed. If users enjoy it and it helps to increase Amazon's bottom line in the services it provides, then it's done it's job.
I'm a happy Kindle Fire owner, mainly because I rarely use tablets anyway and don't see a need for one right now. At $199, I'm happy to have a device that's as brilliant as it already is, while not feeling bad about spending a lot of money on a product I use only a few times a week. I would have felt regret buying the iPad. The Kindle Fire, not so much.
You're a video editor? And bought a kindle fire? You seem to be very good at rationalizing such a pathetic purchase decision. So sad.
You're a video editor? And bought a kindle fire? You seem to be very good at rationalizing such a pathetic purchase decision. So sad.
He owns an iPad 2 also. Is it ok for a video editor or professional photographer to own an iPhone? How about an iPod? If its the tool he uses for video editing, that's one thing... But I doubt he video edits with a fire. If you want to make a point, actually make one.
On another note- I bought my iPad 2 almost exclusively to do very minimal web browsing and heavy video watching for about 5 flights I take a year for work. That's 10 flights a year- over 2 years lets say 20 flights. If I bought a fire, it would've cost $199 (no tax)- so $10 per flight. I bought a 32gb iPad, but for arguments sake, say I bought the base 16gb wifi for $499 or $540 after tax. That's $27.00 per flight. So for a guy like me- the fire would have been a much smarter and thriftier purchase. But I love apple and the ecosystem, and don't mind paying a few hundred bucks more. But there's a place for the fire.
I thought the same thing when I saw that post. You can use an iPad for education, but in no way am I giving it to my kids until they are much older. If its mine, I can do flash cards, etc and control it- ie they don't get to use it for games, just supervised education. That way there is never temptation. If its "theirs", what's gonna be used more- flash cards or angry birds.... 24/7. Ive seen this personally in friends kids.
Exactly.
It's bad enough when these parents are subjecting their own children to this environment. What's worse is the insidious idea being pushed by these same parents that children need to have their own tablet in order to gain an education and not be "left behind".
I'm lucky enough to possess the knowledge to be able to research and make up my own mind, other parents I've known aren't so lucky and end up bowing to peer pressure and the fear their children will be "left behind".
I can't wait. All the iPad 4/5 has to do is Unreal Engine 4 full-spec that does AMD/ATI 5850 levels of 1080p graphics and that will give Xbox360 and PS3 a solid run for their money in "enthusiast" gaming.
Bastion on Xbox360 is a nice title, I can see the iPad3 doing that kind of graphics.
iPad4 should be able to do Deus Ex: Human Revolution level of gameplay and graphics if Apple is aggressive enough. At that stage controllers and what not will be a moot point. Contrary to what many believe, a mash-up button controller is not the only gaming interface for "real" gamers. In fact, Deus Ex, Resident Evil and Mass Effect 1/2 are non-mashing (term?) games. You have to time things accordingly. Dead Space 1/2 as well.
The only few things I miss coming from PC gaming (ATI 4830 512MB) to Xbox360 are stuff like antialiasing and higher polygon counts (Source Engine is particularly beautiful on PC). Also, certain DX9/DX10 shaders are quite stunning without eating up too much GPU horsepower. Deus Ex: HR on Xbox360 struggled a bit on some fire/smoke/distortion shader effects (eg. the take off and landing of the Sarif "helicopter")... and the characters could have been given a bit more polygons for better realism and story experience. Still a pretty awesome game, no doubt if it wasn't a console title it wouldn't have had the epic scope and such superb level of effort put into it.
At first I was worried about the console controllers but if the game is designed with the controller well in mind, then it's alright. Same I think, it will be for touchscreen. iPad controls for Rage and Dead Space on iPad are not bad, though improvements and accessories should come in time.
I can't wait. All the iPad 4/5 has to do is Unreal Engine 4 full-spec that does AMD/ATI 5850 levels of 1080p graphics and that will give Xbox360 and PS3 a solid run for their money in "enthusiast" gaming.
Is there even a market for these large budget "blockbuster" style games on an iPad?
Sure at some point it will be technically possible for an iPad to achieve Xbox 360 quality graphics (IMO not until Xbox 720 is out... but that's a story for another day) but a crap game with great graphics is still a crap game.
As an example "Real Racing 2" is seen as a premier racing title on the iPad, but as far as game quality goes it can't hold a candle to something like Forza (and I mean the original Forza, released 6 years ago on the original Xbox). The graphics are pretty much on par though, maybe even a little better in Real Racing 2.
On the other end of the scale games like Angry Birds, Cut the Rope, Osmos, Plant's vs Zombies, Flight Control and World of Goo are all fantastic.
Comments
What....?
You obviously never even used/touched, or likely seen a Kindle Fire, because it does, in fact, have a multitouch display... one that works very well indeed.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y8qJlQ0rbms
The conversation has lost context at this point. The claim is that Kindle Fire only implements duo-touch rather than multitouch. In the short term it allows Amazon to field a device for the 2011 holiday season but it might be a kludge that inhibits smooth development of more capable devices in the future. This sort of issue was at the heart of what held back the tablet market for over a decade. Merely porting the mouse pointing device to a single touch was a greatly diminished design choice for Windows tablets and left developers without a compelling reason to pursue apps that improved over the PC in user experience. Hence ten years of stagnation. The question here is if duo-touch is a sufficient improvement.
It's interesting how the same posters that are so quick to point out that some overly large Android-based phone has a higher resolution than the iPhone (despite being a considerably lower PPI) are now claiming tht dual-point touch is just as useful as eleven-point touch.
I'd love to see where I said a android phone is better than an iPhone or that the resolution was better. I'd also love to see where anyone said the multitouch on a kindle is just as useful as an iPad multitouch.
Long time reader, first time poster. I read these forums all the time but have thus far refrained from posting, but the rhetoric being used is driving me crazy. So, my question is, where did anyone say that 2 point multi touch is superior to 11 point multi touch? I must have missed that claim. 2 IS multi, but the use of multi is all about context. If i were describing my macbook, it has a dual core processor. Describing my desktop, it has a hexa-core processor. In either statement i could have correctly substituted multi, but I wanted to be more descriptive. So basically, your right, it is a dual-point touch screen. And DaHarder is right, it is a multi-touch screen. The fact that this is something even worth arguing is astounding.
I said the exact same thing. They want to argue an opinion that isnt even correct just because they think it should be called something else. Even though they're wrong. Its pathetic.
You may not have, but I've already experienced it. In a discussion amongst friends and family, when I tried to point out that Amazon's definition of mulit-touch isn't the same as Apple's, I was ridiculed for being a fanboi. I then pointed out:
and told the friends I was talking with don't come to me for support or complaining when you buy a Fire and expect an iPad experience because of some idiotic review they read on the Internet.
No one on this forum would argue the fire has equal Or better touch capabilities. It's in a different class- and one that has a market IMO. I'd take a fire over a touch if I wasn't tied to the apple ecosystem and/or I was tied into amazon strongly (which I'm already a prime member of).
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multi-touch
It's Wikipedia- it mentions 2 or more points = multitouch. But this guy cant be wrong- he's the smartest person ever. Just ask him.
If you ever examined the API's for multitouch on iOS you might understand that stopping at duo-touch means they have not done the heavy lifting required to provide something better than putting lipstick on the pig (single point mouse style interface in this example).
When Apple came out with its new OS for the iPhone back in 2007 it was immediately obvious to anyone with access to the API's that this was not a slapped together shell around the old mouse/keyboard UI. Years of fundamental rethinking and rewriting from the ground up had been devoted before the first iPhone, let alone iPad, was shipped. Companies like Amazon were caught flat footed and have scrambled to slap together whatever they can to take advantage of all the heat that has been generated. They can all buy the same components from hardware suppliers but it will take years for them to evolve their software stacks to take full advantage of the new UI that has emerged.
I don't care what Amazon calls it. Dual Touch does not equal multi touch in my book. I find that to be most deceptive.
Amazon's Dual Touch:
Step 1 - touch it
Step 2 - don't touch it.
That's two separate and distinct touches, hence the moniker 'dual-touch'.
Amazon's Dual Touch:
Step 1 - touch it
Step 2 - don't touch it.
That's two separate and distinct touches, hence the moniker 'dual-touch'.
I can see DaHarder defending the LG Prada — the phone Apple stole all their IP from¡ — saying he can touch it with multiple fingers so it, too, is multi-touch.
11 point multitouch...what's the other point for?
"One of the design goals was when you saw it you wanted to lick it."
- Steve Jobs, MacWorld 2000, San Francisco
This is talking about Aqua, but 10 fingers and a tongue WOULD be 11 points of contact
"One of the design goals was when you saw it you wanted to lick it."
- Steve Jobs, MacWorld 2000, San Francisco
This is talking about Aqua, but 10 fingers and a tongue WOULD be 11 points of contact
I'm getting so many dirty thoughts right now...
Does anybody else see the delicious irony that the #2 tablet behind the iPad is a mini tablet running a modified Android OS sporting an extremely closed ecosystem?
What's delicious irony is that (based on Amazon's own star ratting system) is that 77.9% rate the Amazon Fire Fair/Poor (1 and 2 stars summed).
They are already selling at a loss, and will realize further loss on the majority sold via returns, refurbishment and reshippping.
LMMFAO!
I'm really nervous about getting an iPad (or any tablet) instead of a laptop. Though the versatility of it makes me jump for joy:
That's cool!
What happened...
A few week ago, analysts said Amazon would ship 5 million fires this year.
Isn't 3.9 million a 20% drop in expected Fire sales?
What happened...
A few week ago, analysts said Amazon would ship 5 million fires this year.
Isn't 3.9 million a 20% drop in expected Fire sales?
We still have a month to go. If time on market is any indications they should do a million or two more than 5.
And I wonder if the estimates include all of the returns?
If Amazon only sells 2 million, I bet they'll say that they've sold multiple millions of tablets.
If Amazon doesn't release any figures, how is anybody going to know the truth? Nobody can trust any analysts.
And I wonder if the estimates include all of the returns?
If Amazon only sells 2 million, I bet they'll say that they've sold multiple millions of tablets.
Technically anything greater than 1 could be defined as millions.
If it's impressive I think Amazon will release numbers. After all it strikes at the heart of making a multimedia device look like a better ecosystem to enter. With the Kindle that's not really an issue. Plus, of they want I further their tablet offerings with larger devices, as rumored, it would be good to establish a thriving developer and user ecosystem.
If returns include returns they will note it.
Technically anything greater than 1 could be defined as millions.
Incorrect. If only two million are sold its called "dual million".
Everyone makes projections about future sales, even Apple. Some of it is based on financial trends, some of it is based on voodoo. What we do know is the Kindle Fire is definitely generating more interest in tablets than any other non-iPad device to date. Whether or not that translates into sales, and more importantly, services is a whole other story.
No, it's not an iPad. It also isn't trying to be. It's trying to be a focused portal to Amazon's digital services at a price that's less than half the price of the *cheapest* iPad. And you know, it works. It has found a niche that allows it to coexist nicely in an iPad world. The Kindle Fire doesn't need to "beat" the iPad in sales in order to succeed. If users enjoy it and it helps to increase Amazon's bottom line in the services it provides, then it's done it's job.
I'm a happy Kindle Fire owner, mainly because I rarely use tablets anyway and don't see a need for one right now. At $199, I'm happy to have a device that's as brilliant as it already is, while not feeling bad about spending a lot of money on a product I use only a few times a week. I would have felt regret buying the iPad. The Kindle Fire, not so much.
You're a video editor? And bought a kindle fire? You seem to be very good at rationalizing such a pathetic purchase decision. So sad.
You're a video editor? And bought a kindle fire? You seem to be very good at rationalizing such a pathetic purchase decision. So sad.
He owns an iPad 2 also. Is it ok for a video editor or professional photographer to own an iPhone? How about an iPod? If its the tool he uses for video editing, that's one thing... But I doubt he video edits with a fire. If you want to make a point, actually make one.
On another note- I bought my iPad 2 almost exclusively to do very minimal web browsing and heavy video watching for about 5 flights I take a year for work. That's 10 flights a year- over 2 years lets say 20 flights. If I bought a fire, it would've cost $199 (no tax)- so $10 per flight. I bought a 32gb iPad, but for arguments sake, say I bought the base 16gb wifi for $499 or $540 after tax. That's $27.00 per flight. So for a guy like me- the fire would have been a much smarter and thriftier purchase. But I love apple and the ecosystem, and don't mind paying a few hundred bucks more. But there's a place for the fire.
I thought the same thing when I saw that post. You can use an iPad for education, but in no way am I giving it to my kids until they are much older. If its mine, I can do flash cards, etc and control it- ie they don't get to use it for games, just supervised education. That way there is never temptation. If its "theirs", what's gonna be used more- flash cards or angry birds.... 24/7. Ive seen this personally in friends kids.
Exactly.
It's bad enough when these parents are subjecting their own children to this environment. What's worse is the insidious idea being pushed by these same parents that children need to have their own tablet in order to gain an education and not be "left behind".
I'm lucky enough to possess the knowledge to be able to research and make up my own mind, other parents I've known aren't so lucky and end up bowing to peer pressure and the fear their children will be "left behind".
That's cool!
I can't wait. All the iPad 4/5 has to do is Unreal Engine 4 full-spec that does AMD/ATI 5850 levels of 1080p graphics and that will give Xbox360 and PS3 a solid run for their money in "enthusiast" gaming.
Bastion on Xbox360 is a nice title, I can see the iPad3 doing that kind of graphics.
iPad4 should be able to do Deus Ex: Human Revolution level of gameplay and graphics if Apple is aggressive enough. At that stage controllers and what not will be a moot point. Contrary to what many believe, a mash-up button controller is not the only gaming interface for "real" gamers. In fact, Deus Ex, Resident Evil and Mass Effect 1/2 are non-mashing (term?) games. You have to time things accordingly. Dead Space 1/2 as well.
The only few things I miss coming from PC gaming (ATI 4830 512MB) to Xbox360 are stuff like antialiasing and higher polygon counts (Source Engine is particularly beautiful on PC). Also, certain DX9/DX10 shaders are quite stunning without eating up too much GPU horsepower. Deus Ex: HR on Xbox360 struggled a bit on some fire/smoke/distortion shader effects (eg. the take off and landing of the Sarif "helicopter")... and the characters could have been given a bit more polygons for better realism and story experience. Still a pretty awesome game, no doubt if it wasn't a console title it wouldn't have had the epic scope and such superb level of effort put into it.
At first I was worried about the console controllers but if the game is designed with the controller well in mind, then it's alright. Same I think, it will be for touchscreen. iPad controls for Rage and Dead Space on iPad are not bad, though improvements and accessories should come in time.
I can't wait. All the iPad 4/5 has to do is Unreal Engine 4 full-spec that does AMD/ATI 5850 levels of 1080p graphics and that will give Xbox360 and PS3 a solid run for their money in "enthusiast" gaming.
Is there even a market for these large budget "blockbuster" style games on an iPad?
Sure at some point it will be technically possible for an iPad to achieve Xbox 360 quality graphics (IMO not until Xbox 720 is out... but that's a story for another day) but a crap game with great graphics is still a crap game.
As an example "Real Racing 2" is seen as a premier racing title on the iPad, but as far as game quality goes it can't hold a candle to something like Forza (and I mean the original Forza, released 6 years ago on the original Xbox). The graphics are pretty much on par though, maybe even a little better in Real Racing 2.
On the other end of the scale games like Angry Birds, Cut the Rope, Osmos, Plant's vs Zombies, Flight Control and World of Goo are all fantastic.
Maybe I'm wrong, but I see a pattern developing.