Well, it seems to me that a personal computer is owned by one person, and does computing. How complicated does it have to get?
Then one could argue that 1) modern OSes with multiple logins per device are no longer "personal", or 2) Windows machines used in businesses are not "personal". One could argue that the iPad is more personal than what we call personal
I have to join the conversation whether or not and ipad is a "PC". As an owner of the Ipad 2, I say it is not a "PC". If you can add a mouse to the Ipad and M$ office with close to full functions. I will classify the Ipad more like a device for low to mid range computing. Being an engineering major, the ipad will do little of what i need it to do as far as programs. That said, it is great for when i don't need the engineering specific programs.
But until i can have a mouse ( cause it's not efficient in my mind to constantly be touching the screen) then i will see my Ipad as a step below a PC. Especially since some websites still use flash.
It doesn't matter what your personal uses are. That's irrelevant. What matters is if it meets the basic requirements to qualify, and that it certainly does. By your lights, without a mouse, no device can ever be called a personal computer. If you can't see how odd that is, then I suppose you won't be convinced. But a mouse was considered to be a child's toy when Apple introduced it, so things chance. Don't be so rigid in your thinking.
Well, it seems to me that a personal computer is owned by one person, and does computing. How complicated does it have to get?
I'd agree but as per my note a few up from here the term 'PC' as such i.e. the two letters ... has a history relating to the IBM box, not Apple products. Of course those too young to know anything about the history of personal computers will most likely have a different take. After all how many Americans moan about the missing four oz. of beer in a pint?
That's the first thing that came to mind when someone mentioned the old "Is it really a PC" canard.
Now that the iPad can operated as a standalone device, it turns out that being a real PC requires, variously, being able to run some specific application that I like, being able to allow me to write new software for the iPad on the iPad, being able to hook up to any given peripheral with some arbitrary level of convenience, or some vague business about "walled gardens" and "openness", usually pertaining to access to the file system, being able to install "any" software I chose, customization of the user interface, or all three.
On the issue of what software is available to run another interesting comparison can be made. The App Store is, in many ways, the modern online equivalent of the game cartridges you'd buy for your portable gaming device. The software is developed on a different platform using the device makers development kit, the maker of the device gets a cut of the sales of the program you create, for the most part you can only run one program at a time (which is now changing on iOS 5), and you don't have direct access to see the program resources or the file system.
Is the iPad simply another personal appliance that can run modular widgets (delivered via cartridges, discs, apps, etc)? That's a stretch, but something to consider when determining if an iPad is a PC.
Then one could argue that 1) modern OSes with multiple logins per device are no longer "personal", or 2) Windows machines used in businesses are not "personal". One could argue that the iPad is more personal than what we call personal
computers.
That's a bit pedantic for you
My MacBook Pro runs four OSs and three log ins and it is still personal as they are all for me. If I were sharing it amongst a family, each using their own log in it would still be personal at the time of each one using it.
Yes it is a computer but so is the electronic fuel injection module on my car. My criteria for a personal computer is the ability to write a program on that computer that can be executed on the same machine and be saved to a user accessible file system.
Not to take anything away from the practicality of an iPad. It is a fantastic personal computing device but it is not a real PC in my opinion.
Also if an iPad can be a PC why not make the iPhone a PC. Does screen size have anything to do with being a PC or not?
No, there is a difference between a computer and an embedded cpu hard programmed for a single purpose. That's a computing device, but not a "computer" as we think of one.
A computer has the ability to be reprogrammed on the fly using an OS that also has the ability to recognize different programs, input and output devices, etc. We call what's in cars computers, but they are not what we're talking about, as I'm sure you must know.
I don't think not are trying to shoehorn Apple in a superior position. I think it's on consistenty and honesty. If we keep seeing the definition move to keep exclusing te iPad as iOS evolves is that being honest? I don't think so.
As for your definition it's certainly something that Windows and Mac OS have been able to do over the decades but I don't see why that is the definition of a "personal computer". To me being personal is squarely on the end user experience not how it can be used by programmers. I don't see minis being called personal because you can program on them.
There is a lot of gray area indeed. The original characterization when iPad first came out was that it was mostly a media consumption device, which is still true. Sure you can type on it so some creation ability is there but that is the gray area. If a device is mostly one thing or another it gets categorized as such. The personal part is that most people today do not really use computers the way people did a decade or so ago. Back then average people did not use computers at all and those who did were very into the programming and underlying technology. Even today most people who use computers are technically inept as to anything other than the web and email. So times have changed. I still think the iPad belongs in the mobile device category but it is a gray area for sure.
My MacBook Pro runs four OSs and three log ins and it is still personal as they are all for me. If I were sharing it amongst a family, each using their own log in it would still be personal at the time of each one using it.
Sure and I did state "one could argue" not that I believe or would argue that point. I'm merely pointing out that creating a hardfast definition that allows for no caveats or qualifiers will not work for everything point of view. I've held that we can all call whatever the hell we want to so long as we state how and why we are defining it as such.
"Are the Bahamas in the Caribbean?"
PS: One can use the GUI and many others can connect to that same PC for file sharing in various ways that will make it used by many at once. So I guess single GUI usage defines a PC now.
Sure and I did state "one could argue" not that I believe or would argue that point. I'm merely pointing out that creating a hardfast definition that allows for no caveats or qualifiers will not work for everything point of view. I've held that we can all call whatever the hell we want to so long as we state how and why we are defining it as such.
"Are the Bahamas in the Caribbean?"
PS: One can use the GUI and many others can connect to that same PC for file sharing in various ways that will make it used by many at once. So I guess single GUI usage defines a PC now.
Ok, missed the 'could argue' bit .. sorry
I truly think most of the issue is the grouping PC and personal computer as one and the same thing, to those of us with a history in this business a PC is not the same as a personal computer. Thus to us, an iPad is a personal computer is a different argument from a an iPad is a PC. (Mad Hatters Tea Party comes to mind here LOL)
But in the beginning they did call them airships. Maybe that is what is happening with personal computing. Eventually the tweener form factor known as laptops will fade away leaving mobile devices and desktop PCs as two different categories.
I could see that happening.
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross
What matters is if it meets the basic requirements to qualify....
But that's still coming from the perspective that if I say the iPad isn't a PC that I'm somehow viewing the iPad as inferior to a PC. I'm not saying the iPad isn't a PC because it doesn't meet some "basic requirements to qualify." I'm simply saying it's different enough to be considered as a different kind of device.
And I do agree with a previous poster that sometimes analysts have a motivation to include iPad sales numbers in their PC sales figures because it brings attention to their analysis to show Apple suddenly shooting to the top of the charts.
That's the first thing that came to mind when someone mentioned the old "Is it really a PC" canard.
Now that the iPad can operated as a standalone device, it turns out that being a real PC requires, variously, being able to run some specific application that I like, being able to allow me to write new software for the iPad on the iPad, being able to hook up to any given peripheral with some arbitrary level of convenience, or some vague business about "walled gardens" and "openness", usually pertaining to access to the file system, being able to install "any" software I chose, customization of the user interface, or all three.
On the last point, no one ever seems to consider that every computer ever made is massively constrained compared to the set of all possible behaviors, and what people are calling "open" is in fact simply a very large walled garden that has become comfortable with familiarity. PCs can't run "any" software, they can't be setup "any" way you like and you can't supersede the many, many conventions that undergird the OS. If this illusory flexibility is a requirement for being a real PC, there are no real PCs.
People are giving arbitrary requirements. Just because a certain number of people think that a device must do what THEY want before they dein to call it something, doesn't mean that their requirements are realistic.i don't know of any requirement that specifically states that those requirements are necessary before a device can be called a personal computer.
Going by some of those requirements, and that of a couple of others here, a Ford Model T wasn't a car because it didn't have automatic transmission, power windows, air conditioning, a stereo system, GPS, etc.
Just like the first "microcomputers", which did nothing at all, it takes time before a new category fill most of the niches. That doesn't mean it isn't something that does fill all those niches. That's true of the iPad. It doesn't do everything (yet), but what it does do classifies it as a PC.
Then one could argue that 1) modern OSes with multiple logins per device are no longer "personal", or 2) Windows machines used in businesses are not "personal". One could argue that the iPad is more personal than what we call personal
computers.
Yes, I do believe that. In fact, late last year, Tim Bajarian said that he thought the iPad was the first true personal computer. I've thought that as well. All other machines are really multiuser machines, when you think about it.
People are giving arbitrary requirements. Just because a certain number of people think that a device must do what THEY want before they dein to call it something, doesn't mean that their requirements are realistic.i don't know of any requirement that specifically states that those requirements are necessary before a device can be called a personal computer.
Going by some of those requirements, and that of a couple of others here, a Ford Model T wasn't a car because it didn't have automatic transmission, power windows, air conditioning, a stereo system, GPS, etc.
Just like the first "microcomputers", which did nothing at all, it takes time before a new category fill most of the niches. That doesn't mean it isn't something that does fill all those niches. That's true of the iPad. It doesn't do everything (yet), but what it does do classifies it as a PC.
I'm with all the way 100% until the last two pesky letters... a 'personal computer' isn't necessarily a 'PC' ... A 'PC 'has a specific connotation in this industry ...
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross
Yes, I do believe that. In fact, late last year, Tim Bajarian said that he thought the iPad was the first true personal computer. I've thought that as well. All other machines are really multiuser machines, when you think about it.
I like that, the iPad is the first 'True' personal computer' ...
Going by some of those requirements, and that of a couple of others here, a Ford Model T wasn't a car because it didn't have automatic transmission, power windows, air conditioning, a stereo system, GPS, etc.
A Segway is a two wheeled motorized transportation machine but it is not a motorcycle. From my perspective I defined what a personal computer was to me based on what I expect it to be able to do. I personally could not get along with an iPad as my only computing device.
I'd agree but as per my note a few up from here the term 'PC' as such i.e. the two letters ... has a history relating to the IBM box, not Apple products. Of course those too young to know anything about the history of personal computers will most likely have a different take. After all how many Americans moan about the missing four oz. of beer in a pint?
Well, pc, lower case, stood for personal computer before IBM. co-opted the the use of IBM Pc as a trademarked, copyrighted name. The arguments over the years from Windows users who didn't understand the history were that a Mac isn't a pc, but of course, it is.
Yes, I do believe that. In fact, late last year, Tim Bajarian said that he thought the iPad was the first true personal computer. I've thought that as well. All other machines are really multiuser machines, when you think about it.
And many families wish the iPad was a multiuser device as well.
I think that is a harder argument to make. You need to show how "PC" no longer means personal computer in the original sense.
PS: Note that I will typically put "PC" in double quotes to denote the it as a categorization not simply an abbreviation for personal computer.
It's a time thing, anyone was in the industry in the early 1980s, especially in the Apple world, knows well that a PC was the marketing term of a very specific Wintel Box and it continued to be used in that sense whereas 'personal computer' is a far broader term. 'PC' can be traced back to print ads by IBM, in I believe 1981.I am trying to see if they TMd it.
Well, pc, lower case, stood for personal computer before IBM. co-opted the the use of IBM Pc as a trademarked, copyrighted name. The arguments over the years from Windows users who didn't understand the history were that a Mac isn't a pc, but of course, it is.
Yep in lower case I'd agree but 'PC' will always be a Wintel Box to many of us. I always took it as a good thing Macs were not viewed as PCs
I am suspecting many are arguing an iPad isn't a PC due to that perception of the Wintel Box thing rather than it not being a personal computer ... I could be wrong ...
Comments
Well, it seems to me that a personal computer is owned by one person, and does computing. How complicated does it have to get?
Then one could argue that 1) modern OSes with multiple logins per device are no longer "personal", or 2) Windows machines used in businesses are not "personal". One could argue that the iPad is more personal than what we call personal
computers.
I have to join the conversation whether or not and ipad is a "PC". As an owner of the Ipad 2, I say it is not a "PC". If you can add a mouse to the Ipad and M$ office with close to full functions. I will classify the Ipad more like a device for low to mid range computing. Being an engineering major, the ipad will do little of what i need it to do as far as programs. That said, it is great for when i don't need the engineering specific programs.
But until i can have a mouse ( cause it's not efficient in my mind to constantly be touching the screen) then i will see my Ipad as a step below a PC. Especially since some websites still use flash.
It doesn't matter what your personal uses are. That's irrelevant. What matters is if it meets the basic requirements to qualify, and that it certainly does. By your lights, without a mouse, no device can ever be called a personal computer. If you can't see how odd that is, then I suppose you won't be convinced. But a mouse was considered to be a child's toy when Apple introduced it, so things chance. Don't be so rigid in your thinking.
Well, it seems to me that a personal computer is owned by one person, and does computing. How complicated does it have to get?
I'd agree but as per my note a few up from here the term 'PC' as such i.e. the two letters ... has a history relating to the IBM box, not Apple products. Of course those too young to know anything about the history of personal computers will most likely have a different take. After all how many Americans moan about the missing four oz. of beer in a pint?
That's the first thing that came to mind when someone mentioned the old "Is it really a PC" canard.
Now that the iPad can operated as a standalone device, it turns out that being a real PC requires, variously, being able to run some specific application that I like, being able to allow me to write new software for the iPad on the iPad, being able to hook up to any given peripheral with some arbitrary level of convenience, or some vague business about "walled gardens" and "openness", usually pertaining to access to the file system, being able to install "any" software I chose, customization of the user interface, or all three.
On the issue of what software is available to run another interesting comparison can be made. The App Store is, in many ways, the modern online equivalent of the game cartridges you'd buy for your portable gaming device. The software is developed on a different platform using the device makers development kit, the maker of the device gets a cut of the sales of the program you create, for the most part you can only run one program at a time (which is now changing on iOS 5), and you don't have direct access to see the program resources or the file system.
Is the iPad simply another personal appliance that can run modular widgets (delivered via cartridges, discs, apps, etc)? That's a stretch, but something to consider when determining if an iPad is a PC.
Then one could argue that 1) modern OSes with multiple logins per device are no longer "personal", or 2) Windows machines used in businesses are not "personal". One could argue that the iPad is more personal than what we call personal
computers.
That's a bit pedantic for you
My MacBook Pro runs four OSs and three log ins and it is still personal as they are all for me. If I were sharing it amongst a family, each using their own log in it would still be personal at the time of each one using it.
PC ≠ personal computer
personal computer = iPad
Yes it is a computer but so is the electronic fuel injection module on my car. My criteria for a personal computer is the ability to write a program on that computer that can be executed on the same machine and be saved to a user accessible file system.
Not to take anything away from the practicality of an iPad. It is a fantastic personal computing device but it is not a real PC in my opinion.
Also if an iPad can be a PC why not make the iPhone a PC. Does screen size have anything to do with being a PC or not?
No, there is a difference between a computer and an embedded cpu hard programmed for a single purpose. That's a computing device, but not a "computer" as we think of one.
A computer has the ability to be reprogrammed on the fly using an OS that also has the ability to recognize different programs, input and output devices, etc. We call what's in cars computers, but they are not what we're talking about, as I'm sure you must know.
I don't think not are trying to shoehorn Apple in a superior position. I think it's on consistenty and honesty. If we keep seeing the definition move to keep exclusing te iPad as iOS evolves is that being honest? I don't think so.
As for your definition it's certainly something that Windows and Mac OS have been able to do over the decades but I don't see why that is the definition of a "personal computer". To me being personal is squarely on the end user experience not how it can be used by programmers. I don't see minis being called personal because you can program on them.
There is a lot of gray area indeed. The original characterization when iPad first came out was that it was mostly a media consumption device, which is still true. Sure you can type on it so some creation ability is there but that is the gray area. If a device is mostly one thing or another it gets categorized as such. The personal part is that most people today do not really use computers the way people did a decade or so ago. Back then average people did not use computers at all and those who did were very into the programming and underlying technology. Even today most people who use computers are technically inept as to anything other than the web and email. So times have changed. I still think the iPad belongs in the mobile device category but it is a gray area for sure.
That's a bit pedantic for you
My MacBook Pro runs four OSs and three log ins and it is still personal as they are all for me. If I were sharing it amongst a family, each using their own log in it would still be personal at the time of each one using it.
Sure and I did state "one could argue" not that I believe or would argue that point. I'm merely pointing out that creating a hardfast definition that allows for no caveats or qualifiers will not work for everything point of view. I've held that we can all call whatever the hell we want to so long as we state how and why we are defining it as such.
"Are the Bahamas in the Caribbean?"
PS: One can use the GUI and many others can connect to that same PC for file sharing in various ways that will make it used by many at once. So I guess single GUI usage defines a PC now.
Sure and I did state "one could argue" not that I believe or would argue that point. I'm merely pointing out that creating a hardfast definition that allows for no caveats or qualifiers will not work for everything point of view. I've held that we can all call whatever the hell we want to so long as we state how and why we are defining it as such.
"Are the Bahamas in the Caribbean?"
PS: One can use the GUI and many others can connect to that same PC for file sharing in various ways that will make it used by many at once. So I guess single GUI usage defines a PC now.
Ok, missed the 'could argue' bit .. sorry
I truly think most of the issue is the grouping PC and personal computer as one and the same thing, to those of us with a history in this business a PC is not the same as a personal computer. Thus to us, an iPad is a personal computer is a different argument from a an iPad is a PC. (Mad Hatters Tea Party comes to mind here LOL)
PC ≠ personal computer
But in the beginning they did call them airships. Maybe that is what is happening with personal computing. Eventually the tweener form factor known as laptops will fade away leaving mobile devices and desktop PCs as two different categories.
I could see that happening.
What matters is if it meets the basic requirements to qualify....
But that's still coming from the perspective that if I say the iPad isn't a PC that I'm somehow viewing the iPad as inferior to a PC. I'm not saying the iPad isn't a PC because it doesn't meet some "basic requirements to qualify." I'm simply saying it's different enough to be considered as a different kind of device.
And I do agree with a previous poster that sometimes analysts have a motivation to include iPad sales numbers in their PC sales figures because it brings attention to their analysis to show Apple suddenly shooting to the top of the charts.
That's the first thing that came to mind when someone mentioned the old "Is it really a PC" canard.
Now that the iPad can operated as a standalone device, it turns out that being a real PC requires, variously, being able to run some specific application that I like, being able to allow me to write new software for the iPad on the iPad, being able to hook up to any given peripheral with some arbitrary level of convenience, or some vague business about "walled gardens" and "openness", usually pertaining to access to the file system, being able to install "any" software I chose, customization of the user interface, or all three.
On the last point, no one ever seems to consider that every computer ever made is massively constrained compared to the set of all possible behaviors, and what people are calling "open" is in fact simply a very large walled garden that has become comfortable with familiarity. PCs can't run "any" software, they can't be setup "any" way you like and you can't supersede the many, many conventions that undergird the OS. If this illusory flexibility is a requirement for being a real PC, there are no real PCs.
People are giving arbitrary requirements. Just because a certain number of people think that a device must do what THEY want before they dein to call it something, doesn't mean that their requirements are realistic.i don't know of any requirement that specifically states that those requirements are necessary before a device can be called a personal computer.
Going by some of those requirements, and that of a couple of others here, a Ford Model T wasn't a car because it didn't have automatic transmission, power windows, air conditioning, a stereo system, GPS, etc.
Just like the first "microcomputers", which did nothing at all, it takes time before a new category fill most of the niches. That doesn't mean it isn't something that does fill all those niches. That's true of the iPad. It doesn't do everything (yet), but what it does do classifies it as a PC.
Then one could argue that 1) modern OSes with multiple logins per device are no longer "personal", or 2) Windows machines used in businesses are not "personal". One could argue that the iPad is more personal than what we call personal
computers.
Yes, I do believe that. In fact, late last year, Tim Bajarian said that he thought the iPad was the first true personal computer. I've thought that as well. All other machines are really multiuser machines, when you think about it.
People are giving arbitrary requirements. Just because a certain number of people think that a device must do what THEY want before they dein to call it something, doesn't mean that their requirements are realistic.i don't know of any requirement that specifically states that those requirements are necessary before a device can be called a personal computer.
Going by some of those requirements, and that of a couple of others here, a Ford Model T wasn't a car because it didn't have automatic transmission, power windows, air conditioning, a stereo system, GPS, etc.
Just like the first "microcomputers", which did nothing at all, it takes time before a new category fill most of the niches. That doesn't mean it isn't something that does fill all those niches. That's true of the iPad. It doesn't do everything (yet), but what it does do classifies it as a PC.
I'm with all the way 100% until the last two pesky letters... a 'personal computer' isn't necessarily a 'PC' ... A 'PC 'has a specific connotation in this industry ...
Yes, I do believe that. In fact, late last year, Tim Bajarian said that he thought the iPad was the first true personal computer. I've thought that as well. All other machines are really multiuser machines, when you think about it.
I like that, the iPad is the first 'True' personal computer' ...
Going by some of those requirements, and that of a couple of others here, a Ford Model T wasn't a car because it didn't have automatic transmission, power windows, air conditioning, a stereo system, GPS, etc.
A Segway is a two wheeled motorized transportation machine but it is not a motorcycle. From my perspective I defined what a personal computer was to me based on what I expect it to be able to do. I personally could not get along with an iPad as my only computing device.
Thus to us, an iPad is a personal computer is a different argument from a an iPad is a PC.
I think that is a harder argument to make. You need to show how "PC" no longer means personal computer in the original sense.
PS: Note that I will typically put "PC" in double quotes to denote the it as a categorization not simply an abbreviation for personal computer.
I'd agree but as per my note a few up from here the term 'PC' as such i.e. the two letters ... has a history relating to the IBM box, not Apple products. Of course those too young to know anything about the history of personal computers will most likely have a different take. After all how many Americans moan about the missing four oz. of beer in a pint?
Well, pc, lower case, stood for personal computer before IBM. co-opted the the use of IBM Pc as a trademarked, copyrighted name. The arguments over the years from Windows users who didn't understand the history were that a Mac isn't a pc, but of course, it is.
Yes, I do believe that. In fact, late last year, Tim Bajarian said that he thought the iPad was the first true personal computer. I've thought that as well. All other machines are really multiuser machines, when you think about it.
And many families wish the iPad was a multiuser device as well.
I think that is a harder argument to make. You need to show how "PC" no longer means personal computer in the original sense.
PS: Note that I will typically put "PC" in double quotes to denote the it as a categorization not simply an abbreviation for personal computer.
It's a time thing, anyone was in the industry in the early 1980s, especially in the Apple world, knows well that a PC was the marketing term of a very specific Wintel Box and it continued to be used in that sense whereas 'personal computer' is a far broader term. 'PC' can be traced back to print ads by IBM, in I believe 1981.I am trying to see if they TMd it.
Well, pc, lower case, stood for personal computer before IBM. co-opted the the use of IBM Pc as a trademarked, copyrighted name. The arguments over the years from Windows users who didn't understand the history were that a Mac isn't a pc, but of course, it is.
Yep in lower case I'd agree but 'PC' will always be a Wintel Box to many of us. I always took it as a good thing Macs were not viewed as PCs
I am suspecting many are arguing an iPad isn't a PC due to that perception of the Wintel Box thing rather than it not being a personal computer ... I could be wrong ...
And many families wish the iPad was a multiuser device as well.
As a share holder I hope that never happens ...