Yeah, but that can backfire too. Some families are buying cheap Fires for the kids so the adults can keep the iPad for themselves. I personally know of two instances of this phenomena.
Yeah, but that can backfire too. Some families are buying cheap Fires for the kids so they can keep the iPad for themselves. I personally know of two instances of this phenomena.
Yes, I guess that's true, I was half joking ... I think the fighting over one would probably actually spur sales
There is a lot of gray area indeed. The original characterization when iPad first came out was that it was mostly a media consumption device, which is still true. Sure you can type on it so some creation ability is there but that is the gray area. If a device is mostly one thing or another it gets categorized as such. The personal part is that most people today do not really use computers the way people did a decade or so ago. Back then average people did not use computers at all and those who did were very into the programming and underlying technology. Even today most people who use computers are technically inept as to anything other than the web and email. So times have changed. I still think the iPad belongs in the mobile device category but it is a gray area for sure.
Just because some people may think of it in some narrowly defining way doesn't make it that. I use CAD on my iPad, and it works nicely. I also have electronic testing apps and hardware that plugs into the Apple connector. There are medical devices using hardware and software, photo apps for Pro's as well as the average person, drawing apps, of which I have a couple of good ones. Lots of good note taking apps, etc.
Honestly, just because a device can't run some arbitrarily defined "necessary" apps, doesn't remove it from being a computer.
A few years ago, Apple didn't allow the new version of Final Cut pro install on some of their older laptops. Did that mean those laptops were no longer personal computers? Of course not!
It's a time thing, anyone was in the industry in the early 1980s, especially in the Apple world, knows well that a PC was the marketing term of a very specific Wintel Box and it continued to be used in that sense whereas 'personal computer' is a far broader term. 'PC' can be traced back to print ads by IBM, in I believe 1981.I am trying to see if they TMd it.
Time has a huge impact on word meanings. We won't be the ones that will decide what a PC is called in the future. That is up to younger generations.
BTW, Apple was one of the first to market their machine as a personal computer, it was because IBM called their product an IBM PC and soon after Apple had something revolutionary with the Mac they could market as not being a "PC" that the divide happened but we both know that if you consider Windows a PC OS you must also consider Mac OS as such.
But that's still coming from the perspective that if I say the iPad isn't a PC that I'm somehow viewing the iPad as inferior to a PC. I'm not saying the iPad isn't a PC because it doesn't meet some "basic requirements to qualify." I'm simply saying it's different enough to be considered as a different kind of device.
And I do agree with a previous poster that sometimes analysts have a motivation to include iPad sales numbers in their PC sales figures because it brings attention to their analysis to show Apple suddenly shooting to the top of the charts.
But that still doesn't make sense. We've got tower boxes, in different sizes. We've got all-in-ones, such as the iMac, and others. We've got all sorts of laptops, from the very weak, and basic netbook, all the way to big, heavy, and very expensive top of the line gaming models, and others. But they're all called personal computers. There's no reason why this shouldn't be either.
And we've got Windows, OS X, various Linux distro's, none of which can run the other's software directly, or at all within the OS.
So what does personal computer mean? The iPad is the first successful tablet personal computer. It's just another OS version in a new form factor.
Just because some people may think of it in some narrowly defining way doesn't make it that. I use CAD on my iPad, and it works nicely. I also have electronic testing apps and hardware that plugs into the Apple connector. There are medical devices using hardware and software, photo apps for Pro's as well as the average person, drawing apps, of which I have a couple of good ones. Lots of good note taking apps, etc.
Doing something and doing it well or easily are two different things and again that is the gray area. Do you really think an architect or engineer would use CAD on an iPad as the primary device to accomplish professional designs. I don't think so. They might use it to review a drawing or make a minor adjustment in an emergency but with much more difficulty than on their PC. iPad is a very big compromise for the sake of novice users and portability. If it is defined as a PC it is the most crippled one ever made.
The iPad is a mobile PC as much as many other computing devices that qualify as laptops. It may not have all the bells and whistles of a top of the range MBP, but neither do most low end laptops.
The ipad is a mobile PC in the same way that the iphone and iPod touch are mobile PCs, therefore they should all be included in the count.
I'm with all the way 100% until the last two pesky letters... a 'personal computer' isn't necessarily a 'PC' ... A 'PC 'has a specific connotation in this industry ...
Fix the quote in that post. It was me that you quoted.
Quote:
I like that, the iPad is the first 'True' personal computer' ...
Yes, I do believe that. In fact, late last year, Tim Bajarian said that he thought the iPad was the first true personal computer. I've thought that as well. All other machines are really multiuser machines, when you think about it.
The iPad is a mobile PC as much as many other computing devices that qualify as laptops. It may not have all the bells and whistles of a top of the range MBP, but neither do most low end laptops.
Then they should include iPhone and iPod Touch sales in those numbers but they don't do they? It would be one thing if the iPad ran OS X but it doesn't.
But that still doesn't make sense. We've got tower boxes, in different sizes. We've got all-in-ones, such as the iMac, and others. We've got all sorts of laptops, from the very weak, and basic netbook, all the way to big, heavy, and very expensive top of the line gaming models, and others. But they're all called personal computers. There's no reason why this shouldn't be either.
And we've got Windows, OS X, various Linux distro's, none of which can run the other's software directly, or at all within the OS.
So what does personal computer mean? The iPad is the first successful tablet personal computer. It's just another OS version in a new form factor.
Which is why I defined PC as I did. The one thing that all of those computers you mentioned have in common and that the iPad does not, is that they ALL can write a program, execute it and save it to the file system.
A Segway is a two wheeled motorized transportation machine but it is not a motorcycle. From my perspective I defined what a personal computer was to me based on what I expect it to be able to do. I personally could not get along with an iPad as my only computing device.
A Segway isn't a motorcycle because you sit between the wheels of a motorcycle, and the Segway is very different from that. But a motorcycle is a very rigidly defined vehicle. Unlike a car, which can be many things, in many sizes and configurations. You chose the one thing that doesn't relate to the argument.
Yep in lower case I'd agree but 'PC' will always be a Wintel Box to many of us. I always took it as a good thing Macs were not viewed as PCs
I am suspecting many are arguing an iPad isn't a PC due to that perception of the Wintel Box thing rather than it not being a personal computer ... I could be wrong ...
The arguements I get on ArsTechnica, Anandtech and a couple of others are from Wintel posters who just don't want to give Apple credit for the device. They're still mad that Apple hasn't failed as they were predicting years ago when they were dissing Apple as being small and whose products were only being bought by fanatic fanboys, and today's Apple that's slowly making Microsoft obsolete.
Giving credit to an Apple product is more than painful to them, it's a betrayal of their closely held belief that MS is the world, and Apple is the loser.
Admitting that the iPad is a pc, is an admission that its sales are a validation of what we have been saying, and proof that what they have been saying is wrong.
Yeah, but that can backfire too. Some families are buying cheap Fires for the kids so the adults can keep the iPad for themselves. I personally know of two instances of this phenomena.
Not impressed, and it's going to be pretty rare. I've used the Fire, and believe me, it's not great. More limitations than you would believe. It's limited to phone apps, and more than a few don't work at all, or look very odd. Certainly worth almost what they charge for it.
A Segway isn't a motorcycle because you sit between the wheels of a motorcycle, and the Segway is very different from that. But a motorcycle is a very rigidly defined vehicle. Unlike a car, which can be many things, in many sizes and configurations. You chose the one thing that doesn't relate to the argument.
Ha! I can see you are now tilting at windmills. Do you know the difference between how a three-wheeled motorcycle and a three-wheeled car is defined? I know the California DMV's definition. It's irrelevant but they are different.
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross
That's irrelevant.
Sure it was irrelevant to the discussion of whether or not it is a PC but is it also true. Being so strictly personal isn't always a good thing. Versatility has its merits. The iPad is too restrictive for me to give it the same category as a real Mac or Windows or Unix computer. It just isn't the same thing at all. It can be in the mobile device, tablet , or iPad category.
The arguements I get on ArsTechnica, Anandtech and a couple of others are from Wintel posters who just don't want to give Apple credit for the device.
I love reading AnandTech's comments to articles about Apple products. So many of them are stuck in some archaic past where there only computer worth having is the one they build themselves.
Now its moved to complaints about the iPhone and iPad not being open or other silly arguments, even complaining that Anand is an Apple iSheep fanboy that has lost his way because he will give a more detailed article to the iPhone that comes out once a year than to every single Android-based phone that hit the market.
It's ridiculous, just like the iPhone not being a real smartphone because it didn't have a physical keyboard to every other movable goal post as to why a product will never be defined as another because it will sully their belief system.
Doing something and doing it well or easily are two different things and again that is the gray area. Do you really think an architect or engineer would use CAD on an iPad as the primary device to accomplish professional designs. I don't think so. They might use it to review a drawing or make a minor adjustment in an emergency but with much more difficulty than on their PC. iPad is a very big compromise for the sake of novice users and portability. If it is defined as a PC it is the most crippled one ever made.
You're missing the point. You use words such as primary, but that's meaningless. Would they use a netbook? Of course not! But that doesn't matter. My CAD app works very well, and I use it to design parts. It's great! I can work on them wherever I am. Too clumsy on a notebook.
Verto Studio, look it up if you have any understanding of CAD.
Even many notebooks aren't going to allow a major use of CAD, but that doesn't mean they aren't computers.
Comments
As a share holder I hope that never happens ...
Yeah, but that can backfire too. Some families are buying cheap Fires for the kids so the adults can keep the iPad for themselves. I personally know of two instances of this phenomena.
Yeah, but that can backfire too. Some families are buying cheap Fires for the kids so they can keep the iPad for themselves. I personally know of two instances of this phenomena.
Yes, I guess that's true, I was half joking ... I think the fighting over one would probably actually spur sales
There is a lot of gray area indeed. The original characterization when iPad first came out was that it was mostly a media consumption device, which is still true. Sure you can type on it so some creation ability is there but that is the gray area. If a device is mostly one thing or another it gets categorized as such. The personal part is that most people today do not really use computers the way people did a decade or so ago. Back then average people did not use computers at all and those who did were very into the programming and underlying technology. Even today most people who use computers are technically inept as to anything other than the web and email. So times have changed. I still think the iPad belongs in the mobile device category but it is a gray area for sure.
Just because some people may think of it in some narrowly defining way doesn't make it that. I use CAD on my iPad, and it works nicely. I also have electronic testing apps and hardware that plugs into the Apple connector. There are medical devices using hardware and software, photo apps for Pro's as well as the average person, drawing apps, of which I have a couple of good ones. Lots of good note taking apps, etc.
Honestly, just because a device can't run some arbitrarily defined "necessary" apps, doesn't remove it from being a computer.
A few years ago, Apple didn't allow the new version of Final Cut pro install on some of their older laptops. Did that mean those laptops were no longer personal computers? Of course not!
People have to get over this nonsense.
It's a time thing, anyone was in the industry in the early 1980s, especially in the Apple world, knows well that a PC was the marketing term of a very specific Wintel Box and it continued to be used in that sense whereas 'personal computer' is a far broader term. 'PC' can be traced back to print ads by IBM, in I believe 1981.I am trying to see if they TMd it.
Time has a huge impact on word meanings. We won't be the ones that will decide what a PC is called in the future. That is up to younger generations.
BTW, Apple was one of the first to market their machine as a personal computer, it was because IBM called their product an IBM PC and soon after Apple had something revolutionary with the Mac they could market as not being a "PC" that the divide happened but we both know that if you consider Windows a PC OS you must also consider Mac OS as such.
Is it 27% share of all mobile PC shipped or sold? <duck>
I could see that happening.
But that's still coming from the perspective that if I say the iPad isn't a PC that I'm somehow viewing the iPad as inferior to a PC. I'm not saying the iPad isn't a PC because it doesn't meet some "basic requirements to qualify." I'm simply saying it's different enough to be considered as a different kind of device.
And I do agree with a previous poster that sometimes analysts have a motivation to include iPad sales numbers in their PC sales figures because it brings attention to their analysis to show Apple suddenly shooting to the top of the charts.
But that still doesn't make sense. We've got tower boxes, in different sizes. We've got all-in-ones, such as the iMac, and others. We've got all sorts of laptops, from the very weak, and basic netbook, all the way to big, heavy, and very expensive top of the line gaming models, and others. But they're all called personal computers. There's no reason why this shouldn't be either.
And we've got Windows, OS X, various Linux distro's, none of which can run the other's software directly, or at all within the OS.
So what does personal computer mean? The iPad is the first successful tablet personal computer. It's just another OS version in a new form factor.
Just because some people may think of it in some narrowly defining way doesn't make it that. I use CAD on my iPad, and it works nicely. I also have electronic testing apps and hardware that plugs into the Apple connector. There are medical devices using hardware and software, photo apps for Pro's as well as the average person, drawing apps, of which I have a couple of good ones. Lots of good note taking apps, etc.
Doing something and doing it well or easily are two different things and again that is the gray area. Do you really think an architect or engineer would use CAD on an iPad as the primary device to accomplish professional designs. I don't think so. They might use it to review a drawing or make a minor adjustment in an emergency but with much more difficulty than on their PC. iPad is a very big compromise for the sake of novice users and portability. If it is defined as a PC it is the most crippled one ever made.
The iPad is a mobile PC as much as many other computing devices that qualify as laptops. It may not have all the bells and whistles of a top of the range MBP, but neither do most low end laptops.
The ipad is a mobile PC in the same way that the iphone and iPod touch are mobile PCs, therefore they should all be included in the count.
I'm with all the way 100% until the last two pesky letters... a 'personal computer' isn't necessarily a 'PC' ... A 'PC 'has a specific connotation in this industry ...
Fix the quote in that post. It was me that you quoted.
I like that, the iPad is the first 'True' personal computer' ...
Yes.
Yes, I do believe that. In fact, late last year, Tim Bajarian said that he thought the iPad was the first true personal computer. I've thought that as well. All other machines are really multiuser machines, when you think about it.
Define "true".
The iPad is a mobile PC as much as many other computing devices that qualify as laptops. It may not have all the bells and whistles of a top of the range MBP, but neither do most low end laptops.
Then they should include iPhone and iPod Touch sales in those numbers but they don't do they? It would be one thing if the iPad ran OS X but it doesn't.
-kpluck
But that still doesn't make sense. We've got tower boxes, in different sizes. We've got all-in-ones, such as the iMac, and others. We've got all sorts of laptops, from the very weak, and basic netbook, all the way to big, heavy, and very expensive top of the line gaming models, and others. But they're all called personal computers. There's no reason why this shouldn't be either.
And we've got Windows, OS X, various Linux distro's, none of which can run the other's software directly, or at all within the OS.
So what does personal computer mean? The iPad is the first successful tablet personal computer. It's just another OS version in a new form factor.
Which is why I defined PC as I did. The one thing that all of those computers you mentioned have in common and that the iPad does not, is that they ALL can write a program, execute it and save it to the file system.
A Segway is a two wheeled motorized transportation machine but it is not a motorcycle. From my perspective I defined what a personal computer was to me based on what I expect it to be able to do. I personally could not get along with an iPad as my only computing device.
A Segway isn't a motorcycle because you sit between the wheels of a motorcycle, and the Segway is very different from that. But a motorcycle is a very rigidly defined vehicle. Unlike a car, which can be many things, in many sizes and configurations. You chose the one thing that doesn't relate to the argument.
And many families wish the iPad was a multiuser device as well.
That's irrelevant.
Yep in lower case I'd agree but 'PC' will always be a Wintel Box to many of us. I always took it as a good thing Macs were not viewed as PCs
I am suspecting many are arguing an iPad isn't a PC due to that perception of the Wintel Box thing rather than it not being a personal computer ... I could be wrong ...
The arguements I get on ArsTechnica, Anandtech and a couple of others are from Wintel posters who just don't want to give Apple credit for the device. They're still mad that Apple hasn't failed as they were predicting years ago when they were dissing Apple as being small and whose products were only being bought by fanatic fanboys, and today's Apple that's slowly making Microsoft obsolete.
Giving credit to an Apple product is more than painful to them, it's a betrayal of their closely held belief that MS is the world, and Apple is the loser.
Admitting that the iPad is a pc, is an admission that its sales are a validation of what we have been saying, and proof that what they have been saying is wrong.
Yeah, but that can backfire too. Some families are buying cheap Fires for the kids so the adults can keep the iPad for themselves. I personally know of two instances of this phenomena.
Not impressed, and it's going to be pretty rare. I've used the Fire, and believe me, it's not great. More limitations than you would believe. It's limited to phone apps, and more than a few don't work at all, or look very odd. Certainly worth almost what they charge for it.
A Segway isn't a motorcycle because you sit between the wheels of a motorcycle, and the Segway is very different from that. But a motorcycle is a very rigidly defined vehicle. Unlike a car, which can be many things, in many sizes and configurations. You chose the one thing that doesn't relate to the argument.
Ha! I can see you are now tilting at windmills. Do you know the difference between how a three-wheeled motorcycle and a three-wheeled car is defined? I know the California DMV's definition. It's irrelevant but they are different.
That's irrelevant.
Sure it was irrelevant to the discussion of whether or not it is a PC but is it also true. Being so strictly personal isn't always a good thing. Versatility has its merits. The iPad is too restrictive for me to give it the same category as a real Mac or Windows or Unix computer. It just isn't the same thing at all. It can be in the mobile device, tablet , or iPad category.
The arguements I get on ArsTechnica, Anandtech and a couple of others are from Wintel posters who just don't want to give Apple credit for the device.
I love reading AnandTech's comments to articles about Apple products. So many of them are stuck in some archaic past where there only computer worth having is the one they build themselves.
Now its moved to complaints about the iPhone and iPad not being open or other silly arguments, even complaining that Anand is an Apple iSheep fanboy that has lost his way because he will give a more detailed article to the iPhone that comes out once a year than to every single Android-based phone that hit the market.
It's ridiculous, just like the iPhone not being a real smartphone because it didn't have a physical keyboard to every other movable goal post as to why a product will never be defined as another because it will sully their belief system.
Doing something and doing it well or easily are two different things and again that is the gray area. Do you really think an architect or engineer would use CAD on an iPad as the primary device to accomplish professional designs. I don't think so. They might use it to review a drawing or make a minor adjustment in an emergency but with much more difficulty than on their PC. iPad is a very big compromise for the sake of novice users and portability. If it is defined as a PC it is the most crippled one ever made.
You're missing the point. You use words such as primary, but that's meaningless. Would they use a netbook? Of course not! But that doesn't matter. My CAD app works very well, and I use it to design parts. It's great! I can work on them wherever I am. Too clumsy on a notebook.
Verto Studio, look it up if you have any understanding of CAD.
Even many notebooks aren't going to allow a major use of CAD, but that doesn't mean they aren't computers.