Which is why I defined PC as I did. The one thing that all of those computers you mentioned have in common and that the iPad does not, is that they ALL can write a program, execute it and save it to the file system.
It doesn't matter. You can't define a pc anyway you want so as to specifically exclude something YOU don't want to see called that. You can personally think that way, but it doesn't have relevance in the world, just to you and some few others.
It doesn't matter. You can't define a pc anyway you want so as to specifically exclude something YOU don't want to see called that. You can personally think that way, but it doesn't have relevance in the world, just to you and some few others.
I think you misunderstand my position. I really don't care one way or the other what you want to call it. I simply don't consider it in the same category as a Mac and I think there are more than a few others who would agree with me on this including almost everyone who is not a member of this forum. Call it a PC all day long if you wish. I'm happy for you.
Ha! I can see you are now tilting at windmills. Do you know the difference between how a three-wheeled motorcycle and a three-wheeled car is defined? I know the California DMV's definition. It's irrelevant but they are different.
You're really stretching, and you know it.
Quote:
Sure it was irrelevant to the discussion of whether or not it is a PC but is it also true. Being so strictly personal isn't always a good thing. Versatility has its merits. The iPad is too restrictive for me to give it the same category as a real Mac or Windows or Unix computer. It just isn't the same thing at all. It can be in the mobile device, tablet , or iPad category.
If you admit that it was irrelevant, then you shouldn't have brought it up. It's not the fact that it is "so" personal that matters, but the fact that it does what a personal computer does.
It's not a "real Mac, or Windows, or Linux computer". Who ever said that it was. It doesn't have to be. It can be what it is and still be a personal computer. And it is.
Most people are very happy if their computer does e-mail, browses the web, maybe does IM, some letter writing, and homework. And that's about it. That covers at least half the computers that are out there. Most of the rest are in business or government where the only other thing they do is spreadsheets and heavy word processing. But notebooks aren't good for either of those, just light uses. So I guess by your consideration, they aren't real personal computers either, just restricted devices. And those home computers, well almost anything can do what people use them for.
It's interesting that several decades ago when there were a few computers out there that combined a keyboard, a two line non backlit 80 character display, and a battery, they were considered to be a computer, but that you don't considthatFlash far more sophisticated iPad to be one.
I love reading AnandTech's comments to articles about Apple products. So many of them are stuck in some archaic past where there only computer worth having is the one they build themselves.
Now its moved to complaints about the iPhone and iPad not being open or other silly arguments, even complaining that Anand is an Apple iSheep fanboy that has lost his way because he will give a more detailed article to the iPhone that comes out once a year than to every single Android-based phone that hit the market.
It's ridiculous, just like the iPhone not being a real smartphone because it didn't have a physical keyboard to every other movable goal post as to why a product will never be defined as another because it will sully their belief system.
His point is valid. You can't just pick and choose how something is defined without being thorough or it's just a colloquial definition that could just as easily be defined with a pointless tautology: "a motorcycle is a motorcycle."
There is an old game the teacher played in elementary school where she would ask us to walk her through the steps of something. The game was such that she understood English but she no concept of anything else so we had to be accurate and logic about every step. It was fun but it also proved a point. How would you describe a motorcycle to someone that would define the category as a whole without including anything that isn't a motorcycle? It's not easy.
If you admit that it was irrelevant, then you shouldn't have brought it up. It's not the fact that it is "so" personal that matters, but the fact that it does what a personal computer does.
It's not a "real Mac, or Windows, or Linux computer". Who ever said that it was. It doesn't have to be. It can be what it is and still be a personal computer. And it is.
Most people are very happy if their computer does e-mail, browses the web, maybe does IM, some letter writing, and homework. And that's about it. That covers at least half the computers that are out there. Most of the rest are in business or government where the only other thing they do is spreadsheets and heavy word processing. But notebooks aren't good for either of those, just light uses. So I guess by your consideration, they aren't real personal computers either, just restricted devices. And those home computers, well almost anything can do what people use them for.
It's interesting that several decades ago when there were a few computers out there that combined a keyboard, a two line non backlit 80 character display, and a battery, they were considered to be a computer, but that you don't considthatFlash far more sophisticated iPad to be one.
Again you completely misunderstand my position. I love the iPad. I am actively programing for it as well as authoring a textbook in iBooks for it. It is a revolutionary device with tremendous potential, however it is not a PC.
I think you misunderstand my position. I really don't care one way or the other what you want to call it. I simply don't consider it in the same category as a Mac and I think there are more than a few others who would agree with me on this including almost everyone who is not a member of this forum. Call it a PC all day long if you wish. I'm happy for you.
No, pc is just a couple of letters. Personal computer is the term that people would talk about that has some meaning, as I do understand that most people who take part in forums are too young to understand the true meaning of pc. And most people who I talk to do consider the iPad to be a personal computer, and that number is now making it to the companies who look at sales. It took almost two years, but they are coming over, and that signifies a shift in thinking, even though a few people are lost in the caves.
His point is valid. You can't just pick and choose how something is defined without being thorough or it's just a colloquial definition that could just as easily be defined with a pointless tautology: "a motorcycle is a motorcycle."
There is an old game the teacher played in elementary school where she would ask us to walk her through the steps of something. The game was such that she understood English but she no concept of anything else so we had to be accurate and logic about every step. It was fun but it also proved a point. How would you describe a motorcycle to someone that would define the category as a whole without including anything that isn't a motorcycle? It's not easy.
His point isn't valid, because he's taking a specialized vehicle, and comparing it to another specialized vehicle. We need to compare it to something more generalized. So if "car" isn't good enough, then we would have to look to something even broader, not more restricted. But no one would ever mistake a motorcycle as a car. But the two are both transportation, a far wider category. That consists of many differing vehicles.
So we can talk about personal computers in that broad category. Not all of them can do everything that others can, and while some could, you wouldn't want them to. So the iPad is a personal computer. It can do what some others can't, and it can't do what some others can.
It fits within the broad category of personal computer quite well.
Again you completely misunderstand my position. I love the iPad. I am actively programing for it as well as authoring a textbook in iBooks for it. It is a revolutionary device with tremendous potential, however it is not a PC.
I do understand you position. I just don't agree with it. What I don't understand is your exact definition of personal computer, and why you're so tied up to it.
His point isn't valid, because he's taking a specialized vehicle, and comparing it to another specialized vehicle. We need to compare it to something more generalized. So if "car" isn't good enough, then we would have to look to something even broader, not more restricted. But no one would ever mistake a motorcycle as a car. But the two are both transportation, a far wider category. That consists of many differing vehicles.
So we can talk about personal computers in that broad category. Not all of them can do everything that others can, and while some could, you wouldn't want them to. So the iPad is a personal computer. It can do what some others can't, and it can't do what some others can.
It fits within the broad category of personal computer quite well.
Everything man makes was at once point specialized. Even the common car was called a motorized carriage at one point. It actually has its origins in taking a carriage that was pulled by horses and putting a motor on it.
As he's been saying you can't just something as you see it at a given time and place and apply a myopic definition that will have weight everywhere. It simply doesn't work that way.
I don't care how a PC is defined or how many definitions there (hence my Caribbean comment earlier) just so long as the definition is clearly stated or implied when used.
Yes just a couple of letters - also the same letters found in the title of this article.
For clarification: PC = personal computer with respect to the sales report mentioned in the article.
I sorta know what it means. It's an abbreviation of personal computer, we all know that. The hang up is from what Digitalclips has said, that many people just think that PC stands for a Wintel box of some kind. That's why I said its just a couple of letters. The real argument isn't over those two letters, it's over the words "personal computer", which is what those letters stand for.
Most people don't seem to know that PC, as in Windows machine is pretty much gone. Once IBM sold their business to lenovo, the real name IBM Pc, went away. There really was never an official definition for PC meaning Windows box.
Anyway, it's not the PC were really talking about its the better understood words of personal computer. No one can realistically argue it means Windows computer.
As he's been saying you can't just something as you see it at a given time and place and apply a myopic definition that will have weight everywhere. It simply doesn't work that way.
I don't care how a PC is defined or how many definitions there (hence my Caribbean comment earlier) just so long as the definition is clearly stated or implied when used.
But that's exactly what he's doing. He's looking at the iPad as it is now, and myopically putting a restricted definition onto it. I'm arguing for the opposite.
His point isn't valid, because he's taking a specialized vehicle, and comparing it to another specialized vehicle. We need to compare it to something more generalized. So if "car" isn't good enough, then we would have to look to something even broader, not more restricted. But no one would ever mistake a motorcycle as a car. But the two are both transportation, a far wider category. That consists of many differing vehicles.
So we can talk about personal computers in that broad category. Not all of them can do everything that others can, and while some could, you wouldn't want them to. So the iPad is a personal computer. It can do what some others can't, and it can't do what some others can.
It fits within the broad category of personal computer quite well.
I guess the main difference in our ideas of what is and is not a personal computer is that I don't like the idea of having a device that can be in more than one category especially when people misuse that in making an argument. They just switch the category as it suits their mood at any given point in time. For the motorcycle example: The DMV is going to put the three-wheeled vehicle in one category or the other depending on their definition which may be arbitrary but the one thing they won't do it put a car license plate on the front and a motorcycle license plate on the back.
If you want to call an iPad a PC, that suits me fine but it will be mostly confusing to everyone else. Talk about 1%, the only people who want to call an iPad a PC are the ones who want Apple to sell more PCs than every other manufacturer. Since they already sell the most tablets there is no reason mention it. Yeah, let's say they sell the most tablets AND the most PCs so we just count the iPad twice. No problem. You know what they say about statistics...
It is not about sales figures. It is about consistencies and logic. We've heard many stupid arguments about why the iPad is not a PC and every time one of these argument is addressed another more ridiculous one comes up. In my opinion if it is a feature that can be added by a software update then it is not a valid reason. Can Apple release Xcode for iPad? Sure they can. Are they going to release it? Most likely they will not.
Comments
as usual, iOS the dumbing down of Apple
Which is why I defined PC as I did. The one thing that all of those computers you mentioned have in common and that the iPad does not, is that they ALL can write a program, execute it and save it to the file system.
It doesn't matter. You can't define a pc anyway you want so as to specifically exclude something YOU don't want to see called that. You can personally think that way, but it doesn't have relevance in the world, just to you and some few others.
if you can do your work on an iPad you not a MAC user - anything with IOS is a toy - they not in the same column.
as usual, iOS the dumbing down of Apple
And as usual, you are a troll.
It doesn't matter. You can't define a pc anyway you want so as to specifically exclude something YOU don't want to see called that. You can personally think that way, but it doesn't have relevance in the world, just to you and some few others.
I think you misunderstand my position. I really don't care one way or the other what you want to call it. I simply don't consider it in the same category as a Mac and I think there are more than a few others who would agree with me on this including almost everyone who is not a member of this forum. Call it a PC all day long if you wish. I'm happy for you.
Ha! I can see you are now tilting at windmills. Do you know the difference between how a three-wheeled motorcycle and a three-wheeled car is defined? I know the California DMV's definition. It's irrelevant but they are different.
You're really stretching, and you know it.
Sure it was irrelevant to the discussion of whether or not it is a PC but is it also true. Being so strictly personal isn't always a good thing. Versatility has its merits. The iPad is too restrictive for me to give it the same category as a real Mac or Windows or Unix computer. It just isn't the same thing at all. It can be in the mobile device, tablet , or iPad category.
If you admit that it was irrelevant, then you shouldn't have brought it up. It's not the fact that it is "so" personal that matters, but the fact that it does what a personal computer does.
It's not a "real Mac, or Windows, or Linux computer". Who ever said that it was. It doesn't have to be. It can be what it is and still be a personal computer. And it is.
Most people are very happy if their computer does e-mail, browses the web, maybe does IM, some letter writing, and homework. And that's about it. That covers at least half the computers that are out there. Most of the rest are in business or government where the only other thing they do is spreadsheets and heavy word processing. But notebooks aren't good for either of those, just light uses. So I guess by your consideration, they aren't real personal computers either, just restricted devices. And those home computers, well almost anything can do what people use them for.
It's interesting that several decades ago when there were a few computers out there that combined a keyboard, a two line non backlit 80 character display, and a battery, they were considered to be a computer, but that you don't considthatFlash far more sophisticated iPad to be one.
I love reading AnandTech's comments to articles about Apple products. So many of them are stuck in some archaic past where there only computer worth having is the one they build themselves.
Now its moved to complaints about the iPhone and iPad not being open or other silly arguments, even complaining that Anand is an Apple iSheep fanboy that has lost his way because he will give a more detailed article to the iPhone that comes out once a year than to every single Android-based phone that hit the market.
It's ridiculous, just like the iPhone not being a real smartphone because it didn't have a physical keyboard to every other movable goal post as to why a product will never be defined as another because it will sully their belief system.
I'm seeing some of that here too, unfortunately.
You're really stretching, and you know it.
His point is valid. You can't just pick and choose how something is defined without being thorough or it's just a colloquial definition that could just as easily be defined with a pointless tautology: "a motorcycle is a motorcycle."
There is an old game the teacher played in elementary school where she would ask us to walk her through the steps of something. The game was such that she understood English but she no concept of anything else so we had to be accurate and logic about every step. It was fun but it also proved a point. How would you describe a motorcycle to someone that would define the category as a whole without including anything that isn't a motorcycle? It's not easy.
if you can do your work on an iPad you not a MAC user - anything with IOS is a toy - they not in the same column.
as usual, iOS the dumbing down of Apple
I'm assuming you're a troll.
You're really stretching, and you know it.
If you admit that it was irrelevant, then you shouldn't have brought it up. It's not the fact that it is "so" personal that matters, but the fact that it does what a personal computer does.
It's not a "real Mac, or Windows, or Linux computer". Who ever said that it was. It doesn't have to be. It can be what it is and still be a personal computer. And it is.
Most people are very happy if their computer does e-mail, browses the web, maybe does IM, some letter writing, and homework. And that's about it. That covers at least half the computers that are out there. Most of the rest are in business or government where the only other thing they do is spreadsheets and heavy word processing. But notebooks aren't good for either of those, just light uses. So I guess by your consideration, they aren't real personal computers either, just restricted devices. And those home computers, well almost anything can do what people use them for.
It's interesting that several decades ago when there were a few computers out there that combined a keyboard, a two line non backlit 80 character display, and a battery, they were considered to be a computer, but that you don't considthatFlash far more sophisticated iPad to be one.
Again you completely misunderstand my position. I love the iPad. I am actively programing for it as well as authoring a textbook in iBooks for it. It is a revolutionary device with tremendous potential, however it is not a PC.
I think you misunderstand my position. I really don't care one way or the other what you want to call it. I simply don't consider it in the same category as a Mac and I think there are more than a few others who would agree with me on this including almost everyone who is not a member of this forum. Call it a PC all day long if you wish. I'm happy for you.
No, pc is just a couple of letters. Personal computer is the term that people would talk about that has some meaning, as I do understand that most people who take part in forums are too young to understand the true meaning of pc. And most people who I talk to do consider the iPad to be a personal computer, and that number is now making it to the companies who look at sales. It took almost two years, but they are coming over, and that signifies a shift in thinking, even though a few people are lost in the caves.
And as usual, you are a troll.
I'm assuming you're a troll.
If the mods are going to note a user is a troll it seems odd that they aren't getting rid of the troll.
No, pc is just a couple of letters. Personal computer is the term that people would talk about that has some meaning
Yes just a couple of letters - also the same letters found in the title of this article.
For clarification: PC = personal computer with respect to the sales report mentioned in the article.
His point is valid. You can't just pick and choose how something is defined without being thorough or it's just a colloquial definition that could just as easily be defined with a pointless tautology: "a motorcycle is a motorcycle."
There is an old game the teacher played in elementary school where she would ask us to walk her through the steps of something. The game was such that she understood English but she no concept of anything else so we had to be accurate and logic about every step. It was fun but it also proved a point. How would you describe a motorcycle to someone that would define the category as a whole without including anything that isn't a motorcycle? It's not easy.
His point isn't valid, because he's taking a specialized vehicle, and comparing it to another specialized vehicle. We need to compare it to something more generalized. So if "car" isn't good enough, then we would have to look to something even broader, not more restricted. But no one would ever mistake a motorcycle as a car. But the two are both transportation, a far wider category. That consists of many differing vehicles.
So we can talk about personal computers in that broad category. Not all of them can do everything that others can, and while some could, you wouldn't want them to. So the iPad is a personal computer. It can do what some others can't, and it can't do what some others can.
It fits within the broad category of personal computer quite well.
If the mods are going to note a user is a troll it seems odd that they aren't getting rid of the troll.
He hasn't insulted anyone yet.
Again you completely misunderstand my position. I love the iPad. I am actively programing for it as well as authoring a textbook in iBooks for it. It is a revolutionary device with tremendous potential, however it is not a PC.
I do understand you position. I just don't agree with it. What I don't understand is your exact definition of personal computer, and why you're so tied up to it.
His point isn't valid, because he's taking a specialized vehicle, and comparing it to another specialized vehicle. We need to compare it to something more generalized. So if "car" isn't good enough, then we would have to look to something even broader, not more restricted. But no one would ever mistake a motorcycle as a car. But the two are both transportation, a far wider category. That consists of many differing vehicles.
So we can talk about personal computers in that broad category. Not all of them can do everything that others can, and while some could, you wouldn't want them to. So the iPad is a personal computer. It can do what some others can't, and it can't do what some others can.
It fits within the broad category of personal computer quite well.
Everything man makes was at once point specialized. Even the common car was called a motorized carriage at one point. It actually has its origins in taking a carriage that was pulled by horses and putting a motor on it.
As he's been saying you can't just something as you see it at a given time and place and apply a myopic definition that will have weight everywhere. It simply doesn't work that way.
I don't care how a PC is defined or how many definitions there (hence my Caribbean comment earlier) just so long as the definition is clearly stated or implied when used.
Yes just a couple of letters - also the same letters found in the title of this article.
For clarification: PC = personal computer with respect to the sales report mentioned in the article.
I sorta know what it means. It's an abbreviation of personal computer, we all know that. The hang up is from what Digitalclips has said, that many people just think that PC stands for a Wintel box of some kind. That's why I said its just a couple of letters. The real argument isn't over those two letters, it's over the words "personal computer", which is what those letters stand for.
Most people don't seem to know that PC, as in Windows machine is pretty much gone. Once IBM sold their business to lenovo, the real name IBM Pc, went away. There really was never an official definition for PC meaning Windows box.
Anyway, it's not the PC were really talking about its the better understood words of personal computer. No one can realistically argue it means Windows computer.
As he's been saying you can't just something as you see it at a given time and place and apply a myopic definition that will have weight everywhere. It simply doesn't work that way.
I don't care how a PC is defined or how many definitions there (hence my Caribbean comment earlier) just so long as the definition is clearly stated or implied when used.
But that's exactly what he's doing. He's looking at the iPad as it is now, and myopically putting a restricted definition onto it. I'm arguing for the opposite.
His point isn't valid, because he's taking a specialized vehicle, and comparing it to another specialized vehicle. We need to compare it to something more generalized. So if "car" isn't good enough, then we would have to look to something even broader, not more restricted. But no one would ever mistake a motorcycle as a car. But the two are both transportation, a far wider category. That consists of many differing vehicles.
So we can talk about personal computers in that broad category. Not all of them can do everything that others can, and while some could, you wouldn't want them to. So the iPad is a personal computer. It can do what some others can't, and it can't do what some others can.
It fits within the broad category of personal computer quite well.
I guess the main difference in our ideas of what is and is not a personal computer is that I don't like the idea of having a device that can be in more than one category especially when people misuse that in making an argument. They just switch the category as it suits their mood at any given point in time. For the motorcycle example: The DMV is going to put the three-wheeled vehicle in one category or the other depending on their definition which may be arbitrary but the one thing they won't do it put a car license plate on the front and a motorcycle license plate on the back.
If you want to call an iPad a PC, that suits me fine but it will be mostly confusing to everyone else. Talk about 1%, the only people who want to call an iPad a PC are the ones who want Apple to sell more PCs than every other manufacturer. Since they already sell the most tablets there is no reason mention it. Yeah, let's say they sell the most tablets AND the most PCs so we just count the iPad twice. No problem. You know what they say about statistics...
It is not about sales figures. It is about consistencies and logic. We've heard many stupid arguments about why the iPad is not a PC and every time one of these argument is addressed another more ridiculous one comes up. In my opinion if it is a feature that can be added by a software update then it is not a valid reason. Can Apple release Xcode for iPad? Sure they can. Are they going to release it? Most likely they will not.