Could you please explain? As far as I know the legacy MacBook Pro owner's manuals give instructions for user replacement of the hard drive and memory.
My understanding is that your warranty remains intact so long as you don't damage anything in the act of performing the upgrade. If you torqued a connector somewhere or something like that, then they're probably going to charge you to replace the part.
If you're really worried about it, you can pay an Apple authorized service center to do the upgrade for you. Machines of some generations are better than others, so you probably should go look up some instructions. The iFixit guides are very good, if you get all the recommended tools, set aside some time to avoid rushing, follow the directions step by step, and keep proper track of the screws, you'll be fine.
Yes, it is also my understanding that the warranty is not violated by replacing the hard drive or memory; otherwise why would Apple give instructions for doing it in the user manual?
(I was asking SteveH to explain why he said, "As long as you don't need to worry about warranty service any more..." in answer to agramonte's having said, "You know you can just buy an SSD and put it in a legacy MacBook Pro.")
Like anyone cares but this is just all the more proof that Apple no longer wishes to sell computers to PROFESSIONALS. I don't know, maybe someone at Apple reads these boards, and these do not exist just to help sell more Apple products...
The new MacBook "Pro" is not a "Pro" product at all!. Apple should be ashamed to place that moniker on this release! This is the least upgradable computer I've ever seen -- at least until Thunderbolt expansion options start to be reasonably priced and proven. The memory is soldered to the main board, meaning you are stuck with what ever you bought for the life of the product. It comes with a solid state drive as its only storage source -- it too is proprietary and cannot be replaced by a user "pro" or not. The battery is "glued" in so at the BEST you will have to return to Apple to have it replaced when it dies. It is basically a throw away computer -- not suitable for "pros" really. It is a computer for "dummies". There is not much you can screw up outside of dropping it in the bathtub or something else really abusive or plain stupid like any other electric appliance.
Moreover, I believe the 15" display is too small for "pro" use (Retina display or not). The type of things I do require screen real estate -- not to make things more readable as much as to get everything that needs to be seen at once at a size that is reasonable. I had 1600 x1200 15" display and the resolution was fine in terms of detail, but to get everything I need to see on the screen at once, it was soooo small I nearly went blind. This might not apply to others and it is possible to hook up a second monitor if you are at home or care to carry one around with you.
To sum up, it is not a computer I would buy! Performance boost or not...
1) So you think it's Pro to not be able to update PCIe, CPU or GPUs in a notebook?
2) If you can't figure out how remove 1 screw to the get to the non-proprietary, custom SSD-card then perhaps you're not as "pro" as you think you are.
3) I don't care for the soldered RAM but that certainly don't make it non-"pro". Notebooks have always moved this way. At one point no "pro" would have ever used a notebook as they were just expensive "toys" fore executives. There are benefits to these changes whether you like them or not.
4) 15" notebooks aren't used by "pros" and yet they were the most common size sold before Apple introduced the 13". On top of that the 17" seems to sell very poorly. That should tell you that your definition of "pro" is inaccurate.
5) Can you tell use why a professional writer needs a 17" MBP? Can you tell us why a professional who could benefit from a larger display would only settle for a 17" display with notebook-grade components instead of a large desktop display and desktop-grade components? I'm sure there is a group that would find a 17" notebook and no other HW an ideal match for their needs but for you to suggest that this very small group are the only possible professionals in the world is fucking retarded.
Yes, it is also my understanding that the warranty is not violated by replacing the hard drive or memory; otherwise why would Apple give instructions for doing it in the user manual.
(I was asking SteveH to explain why he said, "As long as you don't need to worry about warranty service any more..." in answer to agramonte's having said, "You know you can just buy an SSD and put it in a legacy MacBook Pro.")
From a legal standpoint I'd say that if they offer you manuals on how to repair or replace certain components yourself then they can't fault you for doing so unless you have damaged the product in the process unless you can prove their directions were to blame for the damage.
As for Apple's actual policy I have found they are very lenient with after market mods. I have a 13" MBP which I've removed the ODD and installed an OptiBay sled so I can have 2 SATA drives in my machine. I'm also using after market RAM. I've taken it in for repair and diagnosis on several occasions and not once have I been turned away because of my setup.
I was told on one occasion that if it was an issue with my mod they would have remove it so they could see the results of the system without it. I was also informed that if I mailed my machine in for repair they might not be as lenient but years ago I had a Mac that was acting up right after a point update and after all SW related troubleshooting I sent the machine in only to get it back a day later with my 3rd RAM removed as being the culprit. They even put in the minimum RAM for that system to run which is above and beyond what i think anyone should expect and I doubt they do that today.
Considering Apple knew this and then changed it... and then changed it back I have to assume they have their reasons and have sorted it out. The new MagSafe connector does look considerably larger than the original.
Perhaps the side mounted cable didn't allow for a proper "pop off" when tension was applied thus causing the connectors to wear improperly if pulled sideways or making the utility of MagSafe considerably less effective if one were to trip on the cable.
Anyone want to cut into the two straight cabled connectors to see what differences are inside?
I have to say, Apple has not been to good with some of their cables. Not the power cables, etc. More the various "thin white cables."
I go through iPod/iPhone charging cables like crazy and they always fall apart in the same place/way. Ear buds, the same.
I don't remember, but it was probably 1-2 years. The model number is ST95005620AS if that helps.
I have the same in a Windows laptop. The NAND cache helps in some cases, like when playing Rage, a game which constantly pages textures in from the hard drive, but in general use, you wouldn't know it had any SSD.
Just like every machine ever made by anyone. Upgrade your RAM and swap your hard drives all you want… it's still a laptop. Good luck changing the CPU and GPU.
Stop the FUD.
It would seem that anything Tallest Skill doesn't agree with becomes "FUD" in his mind.
Tone down the so called "moderation" a bit, open your mind to the wider array of possible viewpoints, and learn to enjoy life with it's colorful array of people and ideas!
I have to say, Apple has not been to good with some of their cables. Not the power cables, etc. More the various "thin white cables."
I go through iPod/iPhone charging cables like crazy and they always fall apart in the same place/way. Ear buds, the same.
The ear buds are an absolute nightmare. The good news is it is usually easy to find someone in your family with an iOS device still under warranty, so getting them replaced is usually pretty easy. Sooner or later Apple will have to improve the quality of these cables/ear buds since it is probably costing them a lot to replace so many of them.
And before anyone complains this is exploiting the system, the buds I had replaced on my sister's warranty were actually her set since she doesn't use the stock ear buds. So it is as if she had used them. In any case, these cables/ear buds should not be failing at such high rates to begin with, so one could argue this just helps accelerate Apple's resolving the issue.
It would seem that anything Tallest Skill doesn't agree with becomes "FUD" in his mind.
Tone down the so called "moderation" a bit, open your mind to the wider array of possible viewpoints, and learn to enjoy life with it's colorful array of people and ideas!
Hardly. Proliferating the idea that computers are "disposable items" any more than they had already been due to soldered RAM is ridiculous, hence FUD.
1) So you think it's Pro to not be able to update PCIe, CPU or GPUs in a notebook?
2) If you can't figure out how remove 1 screw to the get to the non-proprietary, custom SSD-card then perhaps you're not as "pro" as you think you are.
3) I don't care for the soldered RAM but that certainly don't make it non-"pro". Notebooks have always moved this way. At one point no "pro" would have ever used a notebook as they were just expensive "toys" fore executives. There are benefits to these changes whether you like them or not.
4) 15" notebooks aren't used by "pros" and yet they were the most common size sold before Apple introduced the 13". On top of that the 17" seems to sell very poorly. That should tell you that your definition of "pro" is inaccurate.
5) Can you tell use why a professional writer needs a 17" MBP? Can you tell us why a professional who could benefit from a larger display would only settle for a 17" display with notebook-grade components instead of a large desktop display and desktop-grade components? I'm sure there is a group that would find a 17" notebook and no other HW an ideal match for their needs but for you to suggest that this very small group are the only possible professionals in the world is fucking retarded.
It is obvious that your definition of PRO and mine are widely different. In my world this is a disposable "consumer" oriented piece of hardware.
1) If Thunderbolt external devices come down in price and are proven to work with the equipment I need -- then I might change my mind. BTW, I have never known a computer to be able to upgrade the PCIe bus without a new motherboard. And I've never known a laptop to be able to upgrade the CPU of GPU -- I don't understand your point there. But this MacBook Pro has NO upgrade options except for those that MIGHT be possible via Thunderbolt.
2) If you go to iFixIt I think you'll find it takes more than 1 screw to get at the SSD which being proprietary will not be able to be replaced by anything but an Apple SSD for the MacBook Pro…
3) I'd like to know the benefits to us who do REAL computing and it has been some time since they were considered expensive toys for business user. And it was Apple that got us REAL PROs addicted to the PRO line.
4), 5) POPULARITY a PRO computer does not make. I also told you why a PRO may need a larger display -- read my post again. Sure I can read a 5 point font, but can I get all of the graphic displays I need up and large enough to see from 3 foot away. A professional is a person that makes their living from special knowledge and their tools have special needs. Different needs have different requirements and those requirements change over time. Over time I've been able to upgrade my current 17" MacBook Pro and it is still very usable after 3 years of use. I've upgraded the fixed drive, the memory, and external devices that continue to work reliably even as they have evolved over time. PRO gear is suppose to be able to meet those differing requirements and keep up. All of the downsides I listed are almost certainly cost cutting by Apple and make it so you'll have to REPLACE it with the next big change in your industry! This is a step backwards for those professionals that need a portable professional computer with OS X and most of MY peers agree...
It is obvious that your definition of PRO and mine are widely different. In my world this is a disposable "consumer" oriented piece of hardware.
1) If Thunderbolt external devices come down in price and are proven to work with the equipment I need -- then I might change my mind. BTW, I have never known a computer to be able to upgrade the PCIe bus without a new motherboard. And I've never known a laptop to be able to upgrade the CPU of GPU -- I don't understand your point there. But this MacBook Pro has NO upgrade options except for those that MIGHT be possible via Thunderbolt.
2) If you go to iFixIt I think you'll find it takes more than 1 screw to get at the SSD which being proprietary will not be able to be replaced by anything but an Apple SSD for the MacBook Pro…
3) I'd like to know the benefits to us who do REAL computing and it has been some time since they were considered expensive toys for business user. And it was Apple that got us REAL PROs addicted to the PRO line.
4), 5) POPULARITY a PRO computer does not make. I also told you why a PRO may need a larger display -- read my post again. Sure I can read a 5 point font, but can I get all of the graphic displays I need up and large enough to see from 3 foot away. A professional is a person that makes their living from special knowledge and their tools have special needs. Different needs have different requirements and those requirements change over time. Over time I've been able to upgrade my current 17" MacBook Pro and it is still very usable after 3 years of use. I've upgraded the fixed drive, the memory, and external devices that continue to work reliably even as they have evolved over time. PRO gear is suppose to be able to meet those differing requirements and keep up. All of the downsides I listed are almost certainly cost cutting by Apple and make it so you'll have to REPLACE it with the next big change in your industry! This is a step backwards for those professionals that need a portable professional computer with OS X and most of MY peers agree...
1) False. Go to ifixit and you will see that you can upgrade the Wifi card and the ports card. There are a total of 3 removeable circuit boards in the RMBP distinct from the motherbaord. Simply because no third party will offer you the upgrade possibility along with new drivers doesn't mean the machine isn't upgradeable in principle.
2) Again false. The MBA in the first weeks it was released has proprietary SSDs as well, that certainly didn't stop third parties from coming up with alternative solutions. Even your ifixit site is very clear, there are no upgradeable SSD boards, and here is their important locution, yet. That hardly means there won't be in a few weeks or in a few months.
3) Ladida. How impressive that you are a "real" computer user whereas all the rest of us who do work every day all day in our professions, on computes, aren't "real" but rather posers/fakes.
1) False. Go to ifixit and you will see that you can upgrade the Wifi card and the ports card. There are a total of 3 removeable circuit boards in the RMBP distinct from the motherbaord. Simply because no third party will offer you the upgrade possibility along with new drivers doesn't mean the machine isn't upgradeable in principle.
2) Again false. The MBA in the first weeks it was released has proprietary SSDs as well, that certainly didn't stop third parties from coming up with alternative solutions. Even your ifixit site is very clear, there are no upgradeable SSD boards, and here is their important locution, yet. That hardly means there won't be in a few weeks or in a few months.
3) Ladida. How impressive that you are a "real" computer user whereas all the rest of us who do work every day all day in our professions, on computes, aren't "real" but rather posers/fakes.
Yes for those that want to void their warranty there are always solutions. I've upgraded the CPUs on my Mac Pro 1,1 AFTER it was out of warranty.
I'm SORRY if I made you and/or others think I feel like they are posers -- that was not my intention. My intention was that not every PRO user is a graphics artist or a publisher or even computer developer. Please look up the definition of professional. This product is a step backwards for me and others in my industry and that makes me sad because I really prefer Mac OS X...
Yes for those that want to void their warranty there are always solutions. I've upgraded the CPUs on my Mac Pro 1,1 AFTER it was out of warranty.
I'm SORRY if I made you and/or others think I feel like they are posers -- that was not my intention. My intention was that not every PRO user is a graphics artist or a publisher or even computer developer. Please look up the definition of professional. This product is a step backwards for me and others in my industry and that makes me sad because I really prefer Mac OS X...
Right, and increasingly so you guys are fringe cases. The problem is that you go on to generalize that Apple abandonned professionals in general simply because a few professionals like you were left out of the party. You should correct your complaint to:
Right, and increasingly so you guys are fringe cases. The problem is that you go on to generalize that Apple abandonned professionals in general simply because a few professionals like you were left out of the party. You should correct your complaint to:
Apple abandonned a couple of us....
Yes that's true. But the price of computing had been coming down -- not going up. Now that I've become addicted the price has gone up and the quality (i.e. engineering exceptional products) has gone down. Moreover, It doesn't make it any less true that IMHO this is the least upgradeable computer in it's category on the market. IMHO it is a consumer product not a professional product.
I'm not trying to convert the masses. I'm sorry if I offend your sensibilities, BUT, if the group of people that I interact with are any indication THIS IS A STEP BACKWARDS and because we're left out of the party we have to take a step in a direction we don't really want to go in! Fortunately, that is more possible today than it was in the mid 90's. If Apple wants or accepts feedback, this is the truth and it is my hope they will at least consider another point of view. I understand marketing and the likes that one has to appeal to the masses, but it is not the masses that Apple computers appealed to until lately. Like I said it was Apple that went down that path that allowed us to join the party and now they've turned their backs. I still remember how it was when Apple almost went down in flames and us "fringe cases" stood by anyway. Only Steve Jobs really new… How sad!
Like I said IF Thunderbolt turns out *I* could be converted, but for now the people I know have to start looking in another direction for our immediate needs.
I think I've said all I can -- agree or disagree -- I've said my piece. Everything I can say is contained in my previous posts. If you want go to Webster's dictionary for a definition of "professional", they can probably do a better job than I can.
In my mind, there are 3 things people typically upgrade: (1) HDs, (2) RAM, (3) Batteries. Let's examine the case for each one concerning having "upgradability" possibilities built-in from a design standpoint.
(1) Turns out the SSDs are upgradable so this is a non-issue.
(2) RAM. Well, the CPU sets to absolute limit of how much RAM you can use in a machine. Ivy Bridge is 32gbs. So, should Apple include socketed RAM in their machines from a design standpoint? My answer is no. The socketed variety take up more space that can be better utilised for larger batteries or slimmer, thinner, lighter designs, i.e. more portability. Rather than upgradable RAM I'd simply prefer that Apple sold the laptops with 8gb, 16gb, and 32gb configurations. That would make this entire "upgradability" of RAM business a non-starter. So the complaint isn't about the design of the new laptops, but Apple's failure to give sufficient configuration options.
(3) Batteries. The current batteries, under warranty, are guaranteed to last roughly 1000 cycles, so at minimum 3 years plus change. After than to change the battery it costs 200$. Well, put 20 cents away each day in savings and you'll have enough to replace the battery when it dies. So again, don't put clunky slots and latches that reduce battery sizes and portability potential.
So, from an open-minded quick examination, I can't see the merit of having upgradable designs. But maybe when I hear the otherwise articulated clearly and in a non-hyperbolic way I'll be persuaded otherwise. Let's see what complainers have to say.
Right, and increasingly so you guys are fringe cases. The problem is that you go on to generalize that Apple abandonned professionals in general simply because a few professionals like you were left out of the party. You should correct your complaint to:
Apple abandonned a couple of us....
Yeah, it's a completely arbitrary definition of 'pro' and represents someone's personal viewpoint. Which of course, they think represents everybody.
For Apple, it's a question of percentages. If the Retina display model outsells the less expensive non-retina 15" MacBook Pro, then I'd say the "Pros" have spoken with their dollars. If on the other hand, the non-retina display model outsells the retina display model, then Apple may have to reconfigure their Pro lineup...perhaps adding the retina display to the old chassis, or add thickness back to keep the RJ-45 and FW800 ports. Either way, you still have a choice, and Apple is paying close attention.
As for expandability, well, the old style MBP can upgrade both RAM and HDD, while the retina display MBP can swap its SSD only. So get one with the maximum RAM available: 16GB. It's possible that someone like OWC will offer aftermarket SSD upgrades, like they do for the MacBook Airs (link). That maximizes your upgrade options.
I'm unsure of what I want. I personally love the MacBook Air for its ultra-portability, so I don't need my MacBook Pro to be ultra-portable. When it comes time to finally replace the old MBP, I might get a Mac Pro instead and hook up a 27" Cinema Display.
think I've said all I can -- agree or disagree -- I've said my piece. Everything I can say is contained in my previous posts. If you want go to Webster's dictionary for a definition of "professional", they can probably do a better job than I can.
You've chosen a far narrower definition of 'professional' than is accepted by dictionaries, hence my request for further explanation. Your posts have shown that you're part of that very small fringe group unwilling to make any changes whatsoever to your mindset.
Right, and increasingly so you guys are fringe cases. The problem is that you go on to generalize that Apple abandonned professionals in general simply because a few professionals like you were left out of the party. You should correct your complaint to:
Apple abandonned a couple of us....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil
You've chosen a far narrower definition of 'professional' than is accepted by dictionaries, hence my request for further explanation. Your posts have shown that you're part of that very small fringe group unwilling to make any changes whatsoever to your mindset.
Ok you lured me in , but I don't believe my definition is narrower. I am a professional. I expect a Professional Product to meet the needs of professionals. It is that simple. My professional needs may be on the "fringe", but that is just an opinion too -- are you sure. Lots of people didn't think going to Intel processors was a good idea either -- I did. It opened opportunities -- not closed them. But, I could be wrong too. But I think I speak for many hard core computing professional -- Just my opinion.
Comments
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidB
Could you please explain? As far as I know the legacy MacBook Pro owner's manuals give instructions for user replacement of the hard drive and memory.
My understanding is that your warranty remains intact so long as you don't damage anything in the act of performing the upgrade. If you torqued a connector somewhere or something like that, then they're probably going to charge you to replace the part.
If you're really worried about it, you can pay an Apple authorized service center to do the upgrade for you. Machines of some generations are better than others, so you probably should go look up some instructions. The iFixit guides are very good, if you get all the recommended tools, set aside some time to avoid rushing, follow the directions step by step, and keep proper track of the screws, you'll be fine.
Yes, it is also my understanding that the warranty is not violated by replacing the hard drive or memory; otherwise why would Apple give instructions for doing it in the user manual?
(I was asking SteveH to explain why he said, "As long as you don't need to worry about warranty service any more..." in answer to agramonte's having said, "You know you can just buy an SSD and put it in a legacy MacBook Pro.")
1) So you think it's Pro to not be able to update PCIe, CPU or GPUs in a notebook?
2) If you can't figure out how remove 1 screw to the get to the non-proprietary, custom SSD-card then perhaps you're not as "pro" as you think you are.
3) I don't care for the soldered RAM but that certainly don't make it non-"pro". Notebooks have always moved this way. At one point no "pro" would have ever used a notebook as they were just expensive "toys" fore executives. There are benefits to these changes whether you like them or not.
4) 15" notebooks aren't used by "pros" and yet they were the most common size sold before Apple introduced the 13". On top of that the 17" seems to sell very poorly. That should tell you that your definition of "pro" is inaccurate.
5) Can you tell use why a professional writer needs a 17" MBP? Can you tell us why a professional who could benefit from a larger display would only settle for a 17" display with notebook-grade components instead of a large desktop display and desktop-grade components? I'm sure there is a group that would find a 17" notebook and no other HW an ideal match for their needs but for you to suggest that this very small group are the only possible professionals in the world is fucking retarded.
From a legal standpoint I'd say that if they offer you manuals on how to repair or replace certain components yourself then they can't fault you for doing so unless you have damaged the product in the process unless you can prove their directions were to blame for the damage.
As for Apple's actual policy I have found they are very lenient with after market mods. I have a 13" MBP which I've removed the ODD and installed an OptiBay sled so I can have 2 SATA drives in my machine. I'm also using after market RAM. I've taken it in for repair and diagnosis on several occasions and not once have I been turned away because of my setup.
I was told on one occasion that if it was an issue with my mod they would have remove it so they could see the results of the system without it. I was also informed that if I mailed my machine in for repair they might not be as lenient but years ago I had a Mac that was acting up right after a point update and after all SW related troubleshooting I sent the machine in only to get it back a day later with my 3rd RAM removed as being the culprit. They even put in the minimum RAM for that system to run which is above and beyond what i think anyone should expect and I doubt they do that today.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX
Considering Apple knew this and then changed it... and then changed it back I have to assume they have their reasons and have sorted it out. The new MagSafe connector does look considerably larger than the original.
Perhaps the side mounted cable didn't allow for a proper "pop off" when tension was applied thus causing the connectors to wear improperly if pulled sideways or making the utility of MagSafe considerably less effective if one were to trip on the cable.
Anyone want to cut into the two straight cabled connectors to see what differences are inside?
I have to say, Apple has not been to good with some of their cables. Not the power cables, etc. More the various "thin white cables."
I go through iPod/iPhone charging cables like crazy and they always fall apart in the same place/way. Ear buds, the same.
I have the same in a Windows laptop. The NAND cache helps in some cases, like when playing Rage, a game which constantly pages textures in from the hard drive, but in general use, you wouldn't know it had any SSD.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil
Just like every machine ever made by anyone. Upgrade your RAM and swap your hard drives all you want… it's still a laptop. Good luck changing the CPU and GPU.
Stop the FUD.
It would seem that anything Tallest Skill doesn't agree with becomes "FUD" in his mind.
Tone down the so called "moderation" a bit, open your mind to the wider array of possible viewpoints, and learn to enjoy life with it's colorful array of people and ideas!
Quote:
Originally Posted by DESuserIGN
I have to say, Apple has not been to good with some of their cables. Not the power cables, etc. More the various "thin white cables."
I go through iPod/iPhone charging cables like crazy and they always fall apart in the same place/way. Ear buds, the same.
The ear buds are an absolute nightmare. The good news is it is usually easy to find someone in your family with an iOS device still under warranty, so getting them replaced is usually pretty easy. Sooner or later Apple will have to improve the quality of these cables/ear buds since it is probably costing them a lot to replace so many of them.
And before anyone complains this is exploiting the system, the buds I had replaced on my sister's warranty were actually her set since she doesn't use the stock ear buds. So it is as if she had used them. In any case, these cables/ear buds should not be failing at such high rates to begin with, so one could argue this just helps accelerate Apple's resolving the issue.
Hardly. Proliferating the idea that computers are "disposable items" any more than they had already been due to soldered RAM is ridiculous, hence FUD.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX
1) So you think it's Pro to not be able to update PCIe, CPU or GPUs in a notebook?
2) If you can't figure out how remove 1 screw to the get to the non-proprietary, custom SSD-card then perhaps you're not as "pro" as you think you are.
3) I don't care for the soldered RAM but that certainly don't make it non-"pro". Notebooks have always moved this way. At one point no "pro" would have ever used a notebook as they were just expensive "toys" fore executives. There are benefits to these changes whether you like them or not.
4) 15" notebooks aren't used by "pros" and yet they were the most common size sold before Apple introduced the 13". On top of that the 17" seems to sell very poorly. That should tell you that your definition of "pro" is inaccurate.
5) Can you tell use why a professional writer needs a 17" MBP? Can you tell us why a professional who could benefit from a larger display would only settle for a 17" display with notebook-grade components instead of a large desktop display and desktop-grade components? I'm sure there is a group that would find a 17" notebook and no other HW an ideal match for their needs but for you to suggest that this very small group are the only possible professionals in the world is fucking retarded.
It is obvious that your definition of PRO and mine are widely different. In my world this is a disposable "consumer" oriented piece of hardware.
1) If Thunderbolt external devices come down in price and are proven to work with the equipment I need -- then I might change my mind. BTW, I have never known a computer to be able to upgrade the PCIe bus without a new motherboard. And I've never known a laptop to be able to upgrade the CPU of GPU -- I don't understand your point there. But this MacBook Pro has NO upgrade options except for those that MIGHT be possible via Thunderbolt.
2) If you go to iFixIt I think you'll find it takes more than 1 screw to get at the SSD which being proprietary will not be able to be replaced by anything but an Apple SSD for the MacBook Pro…
3) I'd like to know the benefits to us who do REAL computing and it has been some time since they were considered expensive toys for business user. And it was Apple that got us REAL PROs addicted to the PRO line.
4), 5) POPULARITY a PRO computer does not make. I also told you why a PRO may need a larger display -- read my post again. Sure I can read a 5 point font, but can I get all of the graphic displays I need up and large enough to see from 3 foot away. A professional is a person that makes their living from special knowledge and their tools have special needs. Different needs have different requirements and those requirements change over time. Over time I've been able to upgrade my current 17" MacBook Pro and it is still very usable after 3 years of use. I've upgraded the fixed drive, the memory, and external devices that continue to work reliably even as they have evolved over time. PRO gear is suppose to be able to meet those differing requirements and keep up. All of the downsides I listed are almost certainly cost cutting by Apple and make it so you'll have to REPLACE it with the next big change in your industry! This is a step backwards for those professionals that need a portable professional computer with OS X and most of MY peers agree...
Before we continue can you clarify what you mean by that?
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX
Before we continue can you clarify what you mean by that?
Sure if you do digital data collection from analog devices
Quote:
Originally Posted by mess
It is obvious that your definition of PRO and mine are widely different. In my world this is a disposable "consumer" oriented piece of hardware.
1) If Thunderbolt external devices come down in price and are proven to work with the equipment I need -- then I might change my mind. BTW, I have never known a computer to be able to upgrade the PCIe bus without a new motherboard. And I've never known a laptop to be able to upgrade the CPU of GPU -- I don't understand your point there. But this MacBook Pro has NO upgrade options except for those that MIGHT be possible via Thunderbolt.
2) If you go to iFixIt I think you'll find it takes more than 1 screw to get at the SSD which being proprietary will not be able to be replaced by anything but an Apple SSD for the MacBook Pro…
3) I'd like to know the benefits to us who do REAL computing and it has been some time since they were considered expensive toys for business user. And it was Apple that got us REAL PROs addicted to the PRO line.
4), 5) POPULARITY a PRO computer does not make. I also told you why a PRO may need a larger display -- read my post again. Sure I can read a 5 point font, but can I get all of the graphic displays I need up and large enough to see from 3 foot away. A professional is a person that makes their living from special knowledge and their tools have special needs. Different needs have different requirements and those requirements change over time. Over time I've been able to upgrade my current 17" MacBook Pro and it is still very usable after 3 years of use. I've upgraded the fixed drive, the memory, and external devices that continue to work reliably even as they have evolved over time. PRO gear is suppose to be able to meet those differing requirements and keep up. All of the downsides I listed are almost certainly cost cutting by Apple and make it so you'll have to REPLACE it with the next big change in your industry! This is a step backwards for those professionals that need a portable professional computer with OS X and most of MY peers agree...
1) False. Go to ifixit and you will see that you can upgrade the Wifi card and the ports card. There are a total of 3 removeable circuit boards in the RMBP distinct from the motherbaord. Simply because no third party will offer you the upgrade possibility along with new drivers doesn't mean the machine isn't upgradeable in principle.
2) Again false. The MBA in the first weeks it was released has proprietary SSDs as well, that certainly didn't stop third parties from coming up with alternative solutions. Even your ifixit site is very clear, there are no upgradeable SSD boards, and here is their important locution, yet. That hardly means there won't be in a few weeks or in a few months.
3) Ladida. How impressive that you are a "real" computer user whereas all the rest of us who do work every day all day in our professions, on computes, aren't "real" but rather posers/fakes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by johndoe98
1) False. Go to ifixit and you will see that you can upgrade the Wifi card and the ports card. There are a total of 3 removeable circuit boards in the RMBP distinct from the motherbaord. Simply because no third party will offer you the upgrade possibility along with new drivers doesn't mean the machine isn't upgradeable in principle.
2) Again false. The MBA in the first weeks it was released has proprietary SSDs as well, that certainly didn't stop third parties from coming up with alternative solutions. Even your ifixit site is very clear, there are no upgradeable SSD boards, and here is their important locution, yet. That hardly means there won't be in a few weeks or in a few months.
3) Ladida. How impressive that you are a "real" computer user whereas all the rest of us who do work every day all day in our professions, on computes, aren't "real" but rather posers/fakes.
Yes for those that want to void their warranty there are always solutions. I've upgraded the CPUs on my Mac Pro 1,1 AFTER it was out of warranty.
I'm SORRY if I made you and/or others think I feel like they are posers -- that was not my intention. My intention was that not every PRO user is a graphics artist or a publisher or even computer developer. Please look up the definition of professional. This product is a step backwards for me and others in my industry and that makes me sad because I really prefer Mac OS X...
Enlighten us.
Right, and increasingly so you guys are fringe cases. The problem is that you go on to generalize that Apple abandonned professionals in general simply because a few professionals like you were left out of the party. You should correct your complaint to:
Apple abandonned a couple of us....
Quote:
Originally Posted by johndoe98
Right, and increasingly so you guys are fringe cases. The problem is that you go on to generalize that Apple abandonned professionals in general simply because a few professionals like you were left out of the party. You should correct your complaint to:
Apple abandonned a couple of us....
Yes that's true. But the price of computing had been coming down -- not going up. Now that I've become addicted the price has gone up and the quality (i.e. engineering exceptional products) has gone down. Moreover, It doesn't make it any less true that IMHO this is the least upgradeable computer in it's category on the market. IMHO it is a consumer product not a professional product.
I'm not trying to convert the masses. I'm sorry if I offend your sensibilities, BUT, if the group of people that I interact with are any indication THIS IS A STEP BACKWARDS and because we're left out of the party we have to take a step in a direction we don't really want to go in! Fortunately, that is more possible today than it was in the mid 90's. If Apple wants or accepts feedback, this is the truth and it is my hope they will at least consider another point of view. I understand marketing and the likes that one has to appeal to the masses, but it is not the masses that Apple computers appealed to until lately. Like I said it was Apple that went down that path that allowed us to join the party and now they've turned their backs. I still remember how it was when Apple almost went down in flames and us "fringe cases" stood by anyway. Only Steve Jobs really new… How sad!
Like I said IF Thunderbolt turns out *I* could be converted, but for now the people I know have to start looking in another direction for our immediate needs.
Quote:
Tallest Skil "enlighten us"
I think I've said all I can -- agree or disagree -- I've said my piece. Everything I can say is contained in my previous posts. If you want go to Webster's dictionary for a definition of "professional", they can probably do a better job than I can.
In my mind, there are 3 things people typically upgrade: (1) HDs, (2) RAM, (3) Batteries. Let's examine the case for each one concerning having "upgradability" possibilities built-in from a design standpoint.
(1) Turns out the SSDs are upgradable so this is a non-issue.
(2) RAM. Well, the CPU sets to absolute limit of how much RAM you can use in a machine. Ivy Bridge is 32gbs. So, should Apple include socketed RAM in their machines from a design standpoint? My answer is no. The socketed variety take up more space that can be better utilised for larger batteries or slimmer, thinner, lighter designs, i.e. more portability. Rather than upgradable RAM I'd simply prefer that Apple sold the laptops with 8gb, 16gb, and 32gb configurations. That would make this entire "upgradability" of RAM business a non-starter. So the complaint isn't about the design of the new laptops, but Apple's failure to give sufficient configuration options.
(3) Batteries. The current batteries, under warranty, are guaranteed to last roughly 1000 cycles, so at minimum 3 years plus change. After than to change the battery it costs 200$. Well, put 20 cents away each day in savings and you'll have enough to replace the battery when it dies. So again, don't put clunky slots and latches that reduce battery sizes and portability potential.
So, from an open-minded quick examination, I can't see the merit of having upgradable designs. But maybe when I hear the otherwise articulated clearly and in a non-hyperbolic way I'll be persuaded otherwise. Let's see what complainers have to say.
Quote:
Originally Posted by johndoe98
Right, and increasingly so you guys are fringe cases. The problem is that you go on to generalize that Apple abandonned professionals in general simply because a few professionals like you were left out of the party. You should correct your complaint to:
Apple abandonned a couple of us....
Yeah, it's a completely arbitrary definition of 'pro' and represents someone's personal viewpoint. Which of course, they think represents everybody.
For Apple, it's a question of percentages. If the Retina display model outsells the less expensive non-retina 15" MacBook Pro, then I'd say the "Pros" have spoken with their dollars. If on the other hand, the non-retina display model outsells the retina display model, then Apple may have to reconfigure their Pro lineup...perhaps adding the retina display to the old chassis, or add thickness back to keep the RJ-45 and FW800 ports. Either way, you still have a choice, and Apple is paying close attention.
As for expandability, well, the old style MBP can upgrade both RAM and HDD, while the retina display MBP can swap its SSD only. So get one with the maximum RAM available: 16GB. It's possible that someone like OWC will offer aftermarket SSD upgrades, like they do for the MacBook Airs (link). That maximizes your upgrade options.
I'm unsure of what I want. I personally love the MacBook Air for its ultra-portability, so I don't need my MacBook Pro to be ultra-portable. When it comes time to finally replace the old MBP, I might get a Mac Pro instead and hook up a 27" Cinema Display.
You've chosen a far narrower definition of 'professional' than is accepted by dictionaries, hence my request for further explanation. Your posts have shown that you're part of that very small fringe group unwilling to make any changes whatsoever to your mindset.
Quote:
Originally Posted by johndoe98
Right, and increasingly so you guys are fringe cases. The problem is that you go on to generalize that Apple abandonned professionals in general simply because a few professionals like you were left out of the party. You should correct your complaint to:
Apple abandonned a couple of us....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil
You've chosen a far narrower definition of 'professional' than is accepted by dictionaries, hence my request for further explanation. Your posts have shown that you're part of that very small fringe group unwilling to make any changes whatsoever to your mindset.
Ok you lured me in , but I don't believe my definition is narrower. I am a professional. I expect a Professional Product to meet the needs of professionals. It is that simple. My professional needs may be on the "fringe", but that is just an opinion too -- are you sure. Lots of people didn't think going to Intel processors was a good idea either -- I did. It opened opportunities -- not closed them. But, I could be wrong too. But I think I speak for many hard core computing professional -- Just my opinion.