I think you're grossly underestimating the necessary level of compatibility. Most people open dozens, if not hundreds, of documents in an average week. if even a couple percent are messed up because of compatibility problems, that will prevent the adoption of alternatives. Look at OpenOffice. Compatibility is pretty good - probably 95+% for the documents that I use. But the fact that even a couple percent might be unreadable is a problem. The risk that I would send something to a customer and THEY might not be able to read it is an even greater problem. That is, IMHO, the main reason that Office alternatives never caught on.
That's exactly the kind of info I was looking for!
For an ARM tablet, are you saying that it must run 100% compatible Office apps on the device? Or is there some meaningful subset to run on the device, and use the cloud to satisfy the top end... is this doable, today?
Quote:
Quite a few people still use Access, although many don't realize it. Often, when someone says that they have a back office tool which requires Windows, it may be Access. There's really not much of an alternative if your business uses Access.
Interesting... Any ideas of what percentage use Access? It was ubiquitous in the 90s and often used as an intermediary between the web, front office and backend SQL-Server class DBs.
What I am trying to get at is: What does MS need to bring to the table for an ARM tablet -- to get IT on board? I don't think that price will be the particular issue -- it just needs to supply what IT needs.
I've decided that instead of trying to make a meaningful post about the pros and cons of such a device, I'm going to draw similarities to Apple vs MS and Hogan's Heroes. Hogan (Apple) makes Klink (Balmer) look bad until the general (shareholders) starts talking about sending him to the Russian front.
Seriously, Microsoft has only one success in terms of major hardware: XBox 360. Maybe mice, keyboards and other similar peripherals. Maybe. Not sure about that. Zune was a decent contender but with all the marketing and R&D money in the world (ok so maybe not that much but still a lot), MS couldn't bring Apple's iPod down even just a little bit.
The iPad is now in the same position. Granted nobody thought it would sell and that the name was reminiscent of Maxi-pads and other feminine hygiene products. Yet here it is destroying pretty much everything else on the market. Everyone rushed to get their piece of the pie and they aren't getting much. Crumbs basically. MS is dying in a mobile market it helped build. MS laughed when Apple said "we want a piece of the pie". Apple now owns the oven that bakes the pies. Balmer probably has nightmares mumbling about physical keyboards and being good at doing email.
Balmer is a joke. A laughingstock. He needs to step down. You want to compete with Apple? You want to take pages from their book? Destroy the current corporate culture and start over. Destroy the idea of trial-by-committee. You are so close to something different with this new Metro interface. It may not be amazing and it may not be revolutionary, but it's something so drastically different from the normal garbage you usually release. Don't let the corporate culture ruin it. Otherwise let someone else take the company in the drastic new direction it needs. MS is sinking and you're the hole in the hull.
I seriously feel bad for people at Microsoft. I bet a lot of them have really great ideas that will never see the light of day cause the execs and managers and committees are blind. I bet it took a lot of time and effort to rally the brass around Metro since it looked nothing like anything MS had ever crapped out before. Maybe I'm wrong. I hope I'm wrong. I would like to think that MS maybe starting to right the boat.
That's exactly the kind of info I was looking for!
For an ARM tablet, are you saying that it must run 100% compatible Office apps on the device? Or is there some meaningful subset to run on the device, and use the cloud to satisfy the top end... is this doable, today?
That's not what I'm saying at all. A tablet is useful even with 0% Office compatibility. The greater the compatibility, the more usefulness is added. But I don't expect that it will ever be the only determining factor - like it is with desktop computers. In most cases, tablets are used for viewing content. And when they're used for content creation, it's likely to be simpler documents rather than multipage spreadsheets and entire eBooks (there are exceptions, but they are relatively minor). If you're only reading (or even creating) a simple memo, any of the Office substitutes are compatible enough. It's only when you get into more complicated things that compatibility is an issue - and those things are not as common with Tablets. And if you're simply viewing content, incompatibility is only a minor annoyance - certainly nothing like sending everyone documents that they can't read.
Interesting... Any ideas of what percentage use Access? It was ubiquitous in the 90s and often used as an intermediary between the web, front office and backend SQL-Server class DBs.
What I am trying to get at is: What does MS need to bring to the table for an ARM tablet -- to get IT on board? I don't think that price will be the particular issue -- it just needs to supply what IT needs.
It's likely to be marketing and peer pressure that does it more than specific features. "Office compatible" still carries a lot of weight around the boardroom - even when it's not a major issue for the way tablets are used.
This is great news, the more the merrier as far as I'm concerned. I really hope these things take off as there really isn't reason why they shouldn't. I happen to like the Metro interface and if Microsoft embraces more media codecs then Apple does like Divx. Flash, ect. I will defiantly pick one up to use as a media pad. We need more competition not less, with Apples latest iOS 6 release it seems that they are now becoming complacent and if Microsoft is successful we will hopefully finally get a newer, better UI for the now aging iOS to compete. Just wishing here.
Originally Posted by Macky the Macky
You're one of those people that like to slow down and gawk as you pass a flaming multi-car wreck, aren't you?
More like one of those people who are paid by Microsoft to troll and astroturf Apple-related sites.
I mean, why else would you "defiantly" pick up a Microsoft-branded iPad clone to use as a "media pad"?
Masochism? Self-hatred? Distaste for money?
Too bad it won't help Nokia at all, eh Microsofties?
I've never been a huge fan of MS, but in my book, they've got three things going for them in my book:
Even though they ripped off Apple's UI and potentially caused them great loss for some time, they did push Apple to move toward a real preemptive multitasking OS.
They came to Apple's aid during some dark times. Apple may not be around today if it weren't for them, and they didn't take a pound of flesh to do it.
In modern times, they built their own UI paradigm with Metro and are doing their best with it (instead of doing what Android did in 2008).
I don't think Metro is going to be a great success, but I do find it hard to be mean to them after they started playing fairly and do hope that they find a profitable niche that will allow them to be around for a long time.
What do you mean by "be mean to them"???? You think that's what this is about?
Do corporations have feelings?
First of all, if they did, I couldn't care less, because I GUARANTEE Microsoft doesn't care, love, or want any kind of emotional engagement from its users. User are collateral in a giant chess game that Microsoft plays with its competitors. They're MUCH MORE INTERESTED in vanquishing their competitors than actually making users happy. They just want you to buy their products, so they'll win the game. That's embedded in Microsoft's culture, and it comes directly from Bill Gates' early personality. It helps that corporations make buying decisions based on factors that don't include user happiness.
It's clear you are sympathetic to Microsoft, but I'm not going to be "nicer" to Microsoft because you think they're so wonderful and caring. I don't think that's unfair. I work in Fortune 500 and my company forces me to use Windows and other Microsoft products at work, which I put up with. I can barely tolerate them. Software with clumsy, fussy design, buttons galore, unintuitive user interface, and weird error messages. Applications that don't just work. Installations that fail. Contact your Administrator, says Windows. Yeah, you need an IT department to use Windows. And I've been putting up with this for decades. I come home and use my Mac and iPad, and it's breath of fresh air. That's the reason I dislike Microsoft: because they just don't get it. You can't just put shiny new Metro wallpaper over Windows 7 and convince me that Microsoft has changed its spots.
well, i see no one here has considered that MS might team up with Barnes and Noble for a Windows RT version of the Nook. MS already made a deal with B&N months ago to invest in something ...
the advantages to both are obvious: MS gets a complete Bookstore/Reader instantly, and an established slightly successful partner brand. B&N gets special access to the future MS Windows ecosystem, maybe even including desktop Windows.
and of course they both team up to fight a mutual arch-enemy: Amazon.
The Nook RT will probably cost $100 more than the basic Nook. But that's still just $300 for a 7".
What I am trying to get at is: What does MS need to bring to the table for an ARM tablet -- to get IT on board? I don't think that price will be the particular issue -- it just needs to supply what IT needs.
Probably not too much. Just what they do as a matter of course: Provide a reasonably good UX, reasonably good compatibility and reasonably good security. If they do that, inertia will supply middling to good sales.
But hey - I can't know the future. I just expect that Microsoft will keep doing what they've been doing. It has worked OK so far, with a few notable exceptions.
Probably one of the most cringe-worthy marketing campaigns ever!
That video was so bizarre that it was surrealistic. It is hard to believe that anybody, even (especially?) those in marketing, thought consumers would have launch parties. Christ, not even Apple fans do that, and some of them are totally nuts.
Can't be argued on an apple site that building your own hardware is a good idea. Until the lumia came along win phones biggest problem was none of the hardware was as good as the iPhone.
Now a few serious reasons why Windows tablets could be a success:
1. Android tablets suck! Seriously I cannot believe how bad they look. Some people moan about the Win 8 UI, but at least it's got a clean layout like iOS. The android ui on tablets just looks a mess with awful icons.
2. Multiple logins. My iPad lives at home, I have no reason to take it anywhere but it quite clearly is my iPad. My wife cant have a photos on it, nor can she have her email on it, nor can it sync with her iTunes. It's a £400 device that we don't need 2 of, but it can only be set up for one user to use all the features. Seriously add logins!
3. The OS actually does something rather than just launch apps. It allows apps to talk to each other. It has live tiles to show information from apps without opening them.
4. Business. Apple has been slowly eating away at the enterprise market, but last week with ios 6 they made a huge mistake. Saying iOS 6 won't be on the orional iPad, not even for security updates is basically the same as saying the hardware you buy for us may only last 2 years before you have to replace it for security reasons. Now you can almost guarantee that no company out there wants to replace hardware every 2 years, and equally no company wants devices that are no longer getting security updates!
well, i see no one here has considered that MS might team up with Barnes and Noble for a Windows RT version of the Nook. MS already made a deal with B&N months ago to invest in something ...
the advantages to both are obvious: MS gets a complete Bookstore/Reader instantly, and an established slightly successful partner brand. B&N gets special access to the future MS Windows ecosystem, maybe even including desktop Windows.
and of course they both team up to fight a mutual arch-enemy: Amazon.
The Nook RT will probably cost $100 more than the basic Nook. But that's still just $300 for a 7".
A lot of us assumed this would happen after the recent announcement. But, is this a big enough announcement to have a special meeting?
Whether or not MS builds its own tablet, I think a Windows tablet has a reasonable chance of success for following reasons:
- MS still has a lions share of desktop OS - so any perceived compatibility or familiarity will give Windows tablets a boost out of the gate - even if there is no real similarity.
- Android tablets are in a mess - Samsung and Motorola just cannot compete with Amazon's $199 (and soon $149) tablets - plus the innumerable tablets at even less than $100 coming from dozens of companies. The Android tablet space has gotten commoditized before it even became big.
- Ecosystem is everything - and in Android's case, Amazon is the only one with some chance of success as an ecosystem. Google's ecosystem components (Mail, Docs, Youtube, etc) are available on all tablets, so that does not add any value to Android).
- MS will definitely have a version of Office available for its own OS. And you can bet that they will not support Android. They may or may not support iPad - or they might support iPad later on. Office will be a killer app for Windows tablets.
- MS is not as late to the tablet space as it was in Phones. Other than Apple, no one has managed success in tablets, so MS has a shot at being a respectable #2 if they don't mess things up. At some point, MS will release dev tools that allow compilation of existing Windows Apps for the tablet form factor.
- MS probably will not see anywhere near the patent hassles that other Android makers are seeing.
Your first point - While MS has the lion's share of Desktop OS, it is throwing that all away by not matching it with Windows 8, and Windows RT. Keep in mind that where MS is weakest is on the mobile computer market. This is where the movers and shakers are and this is where Apple has made the biggest impact with their iPhones and iPads. The desktop computers are operated by the worker bees in the corporate environment. They will run whatever the management sets in front of them. Management, as you ascend in the organization is more enamored with the iDevices and more likely to work on an Apple laptop than a Windows laptop. Generation Y and Z don't have any warm and fuzzy feelings about MS or Win computers unless they are gamers. That's a slim slice of the market. By being absent from the phone and music player markets MS has went AWOL from the consciousness of the 20-somethings. MS has in effect lost influence on a generation.
Your second point - I agree. Android is a mess and owns the low-end commodity market. Apple doesn't want it and neither should MS.
Your third point - I agree. The ecosystem is everything; and that includes the integration of the desktop computer with the mobile devices and laptops. In spite of MS naming their ARM OS similar to their Intel OS, there is very little integration of the two to date. I'm sure it will come about over time, but that's where Apple has a six year lead on MS. I expect Apple to exhibit a tighter integration of all devices be they Windows computers, OSX Apple computers, iPhones, iPads, or iPod Touches via iCloud. I do expect MS to exaggerate how tight they are going to make their integration, but they are still playing catchup and Apple will continue to press ahead. It will not be a cake walk for MS.
Your fourth point - I agree. The MS Office is a power house of an app suite. Like you, I'm not thinking that they will port it to Android. However, MS is very concerned about monopolistic practices. Furthermore, Apple computers represent a very nice chunk of their Office revenue. I expect MS to make a version available to the iDevices. Perhaps a bit delayed, but available at some time soon.
Your fifth point - Yes, MS has a chance at being a #2 vendor in the enterprise tablet market. And, like you, with the caveat that they don't mess up. Unfortunately MS is quite good at messing up. In the past, with their size in the OS market, they could afford to bumble their way along. In this faster moving market, such mis-steps have greater consequences. Also, MS doesn't lead in this market. They need to really tighten up their act to succeed.
Your sixth point - I agree. MS is not copying Apple with their new OS. I'd be surprised if Apple sues MS this time around.
An additional point - You didn't bring it up but MS has a long-standing good relationship with enterprise IT managers. They would be remiss in not leveraging it to see more of their phones and tablets sold to that market. However, in the meantime Apple has made some very powerful connection with the IT departments with the iPhones, iPads, and even with their Macs. Many of the enterprise IT departments are open to the BYOD concept. It's not as Windows exclusive world it once was. MS won't be able to button it back down, the horse has left the barn, Elvis has left the building, and the C-level management has been the greatest generator of this movement.
Finally, If MS builds their own tablets, they will have a better chance of getting them placed in enterprise. But that would be at the expense of all their PC partners goodwill. It will be a tough row to hoe which ever way they chose to go.
A lot of us assumed this would happen after the recent announcement. But, is this a big enough announcement to have a special meeting?
It doesn't seem to be a big enough announcement to decorate the outside of the building, a la Apple. I mean, taping a sheet of copy paper to the front door is about all MS may do. Ballmer may don a sweat-soaked shirt and do a floor show act, but that's about the extent of effort. They don't even install UPs for their demo computers. No careful planning, no taste...
Can't be argued on an apple site that building your own hardware is a good idea. Until the lumia came along win phones biggest problem was none of the hardware was as good as the iPhone.
Now a few serious reasons why Windows tablets could be a success:
1. Android tablets suck! Seriously I cannot believe how bad they look. Some people moan about the Win 8 UI, but at least it's got a clean layout like iOS. The android ui on tablets just looks a mess with awful icons.
2. Multiple logins. My iPad lives at home, I have no reason to take it anywhere but it quite clearly is my iPad. My wife cant have a photos on it, nor can she have her email on it, nor can it sync with her iTunes. It's a £400 device that we don't need 2 of, but it can only be set up for one user to use all the features. Seriously add logins!
3. The OS actually does something rather than just launch apps. It allows apps to talk to each other. It has live tiles to show information from apps without opening them.
4. Business. Apple has been slowly eating away at the enterprise market, but last week with ios 6 they made a huge mistake. Saying iOS 6 won't be on the orional iPad, not even for security updates is basically the same as saying the hardware you buy for us may only last 2 years before you have to replace it for security reasons. Now you can almost guarantee that no company out there wants to replace hardware every 2 years, and equally no company wants devices that are no longer getting security updates!
1. I hope that you don't think this UI looks better then even a crappy Android tablet.
2. Multiple logins is a great idea. I'm not sure Apple sees iDevices as anything other then personal devices. Maybe there will be a change in store, after all, once all your personal data is in the cloud, the iDevice can be handed off to someone else to fill it back up with their iCloud data.
3. iOS 6 will allow apps to talk to each other as well as to the other computers and iDevices. If you look at the history of iDevices, it has been one of pushing the envelope as it grows. Apple is on their 6th iOS, it's being built up carefully over time, and has, for the most part, been pretty trouble-free. If MS thinks they can jump in with all the bells and whistles working as well as an Apple iDevice, then they are either foolish or have become better at writing software in the last year or so then in the preceding decades.
4. You fault Apple for not supporting the first iPad with the latest iOS version for over two years. Yet no one else, HP, Dell, or anyone else has supported any of their discontinued tablets for over two years. Even RIM discontinued their first Playbook. The tablet market, like the phone market is evolving faster then the computer market. This may go on for a few more years. Third generation tablets will likely struggle with new versions of OS because of forward development of the CPU, GPU, cost of SSD storage and even pixel density. Let's see if anyone out-performs Apple on backward iOS support before thinking they messed up.
2. Multiple logins is a great idea. I'm not sure Apple sees iDevices as anything other then personal devices. Maybe there will be a change in store, after all, once all your personal data is in the cloud, the iDevice can be handed off to someone else to fill it back up with their iCloud data.
I'm not sure multiple logins make sense (I'd even like a Secure Auto Login* feature for Mac OS) but I would like there to be a way you can allow guest access from the lock screen for limited app access, like web browser, Find My Friends, and other apps with limited accessibility in much the same way that you can now use the camera app.
* My vision of Secure Auto Login would allow your desktop to restart into a specific user so that all apps and settings are loaded before you input your password but it boots locked so you still maintain the same security as a locked machine.
Comments
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta
I think you're grossly underestimating the necessary level of compatibility. Most people open dozens, if not hundreds, of documents in an average week. if even a couple percent are messed up because of compatibility problems, that will prevent the adoption of alternatives. Look at OpenOffice. Compatibility is pretty good - probably 95+% for the documents that I use. But the fact that even a couple percent might be unreadable is a problem. The risk that I would send something to a customer and THEY might not be able to read it is an even greater problem. That is, IMHO, the main reason that Office alternatives never caught on.
That's exactly the kind of info I was looking for!
For an ARM tablet, are you saying that it must run 100% compatible Office apps on the device? Or is there some meaningful subset to run on the device, and use the cloud to satisfy the top end... is this doable, today?
Quote:
Quite a few people still use Access, although many don't realize it. Often, when someone says that they have a back office tool which requires Windows, it may be Access. There's really not much of an alternative if your business uses Access.
Interesting... Any ideas of what percentage use Access? It was ubiquitous in the 90s and often used as an intermediary between the web, front office and backend SQL-Server class DBs.
What I am trying to get at is: What does MS need to bring to the table for an ARM tablet -- to get IT on board? I don't think that price will be the particular issue -- it just needs to supply what IT needs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo63
I forgot all about those Windows 7 launch party videos... Thanks for posting that! Waaaay too funny!
Probably one of the most cringe-worthy marketing campaigns ever!
That thing is real? Oh a MS tablet should do wonderfully lol
Quote:
Originally Posted by focuspuller
This could be bad for Apple.
When the Microsoft tablet fails totally and the clown Ballmer is finally removed by the Board, they may actually get somebody as CEO who has a clue.
This!
Nokia goes on life support - declared junk by the last of the three major credit-rating companies. Ballmer certainly is a visionary!
I've decided that instead of trying to make a meaningful post about the pros and cons of such a device, I'm going to draw similarities to Apple vs MS and Hogan's Heroes. Hogan (Apple) makes Klink (Balmer) look bad until the general (shareholders) starts talking about sending him to the Russian front.
Seriously, Microsoft has only one success in terms of major hardware: XBox 360. Maybe mice, keyboards and other similar peripherals. Maybe. Not sure about that. Zune was a decent contender but with all the marketing and R&D money in the world (ok so maybe not that much but still a lot), MS couldn't bring Apple's iPod down even just a little bit.
The iPad is now in the same position. Granted nobody thought it would sell and that the name was reminiscent of Maxi-pads and other feminine hygiene products. Yet here it is destroying pretty much everything else on the market. Everyone rushed to get their piece of the pie and they aren't getting much. Crumbs basically. MS is dying in a mobile market it helped build. MS laughed when Apple said "we want a piece of the pie". Apple now owns the oven that bakes the pies. Balmer probably has nightmares mumbling about physical keyboards and being good at doing email.
Balmer is a joke. A laughingstock. He needs to step down. You want to compete with Apple? You want to take pages from their book? Destroy the current corporate culture and start over. Destroy the idea of trial-by-committee. You are so close to something different with this new Metro interface. It may not be amazing and it may not be revolutionary, but it's something so drastically different from the normal garbage you usually release. Don't let the corporate culture ruin it. Otherwise let someone else take the company in the drastic new direction it needs. MS is sinking and you're the hole in the hull.
I seriously feel bad for people at Microsoft. I bet a lot of them have really great ideas that will never see the light of day cause the execs and managers and committees are blind. I bet it took a lot of time and effort to rally the brass around Metro since it looked nothing like anything MS had ever crapped out before. Maybe I'm wrong. I hope I'm wrong. I would like to think that MS maybe starting to right the boat.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider
But the HP Slate was a complete failure, with a total of just 9,000 units sold by the end of 2010.
Look at it this way. A working Apple I was just sold at Sotheby's for $375,000.
Just imagine how much a working HP Slate will be worth 36 years from now, in 2048.
Could have massive collector value. Like a piece of the iceberg that sank Titanic.
That's not what I'm saying at all. A tablet is useful even with 0% Office compatibility. The greater the compatibility, the more usefulness is added. But I don't expect that it will ever be the only determining factor - like it is with desktop computers. In most cases, tablets are used for viewing content. And when they're used for content creation, it's likely to be simpler documents rather than multipage spreadsheets and entire eBooks (there are exceptions, but they are relatively minor). If you're only reading (or even creating) a simple memo, any of the Office substitutes are compatible enough. It's only when you get into more complicated things that compatibility is an issue - and those things are not as common with Tablets. And if you're simply viewing content, incompatibility is only a minor annoyance - certainly nothing like sending everyone documents that they can't read.
It's likely to be marketing and peer pressure that does it more than specific features. "Office compatible" still carries a lot of weight around the boardroom - even when it's not a major issue for the way tablets are used.
Originally Posted by Relic
This is great news, the more the merrier as far as I'm concerned. I really hope these things take off as there really isn't reason why they shouldn't. I happen to like the Metro interface and if Microsoft embraces more media codecs then Apple does like Divx. Flash, ect. I will defiantly pick one up to use as a media pad. We need more competition not less, with Apples latest iOS 6 release it seems that they are now becoming complacent and if Microsoft is successful we will hopefully finally get a newer, better UI for the now aging iOS to compete. Just wishing here.
Originally Posted by Macky the Macky
You're one of those people that like to slow down and gawk as you pass a flaming multi-car wreck, aren't you?
More like one of those people who are paid by Microsoft to troll and astroturf Apple-related sites.
I mean, why else would you "defiantly" pick up a Microsoft-branded iPad clone to use as a "media pad"?
Masochism? Self-hatred? Distaste for money?
Too bad it won't help Nokia at all, eh Microsofties?
(Nokia credit now labeled junk: http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/12/06/15/nokia_credit_now_labeled_junk_by_all_three_major_credit_rating_agencies.html)
Quote:
Originally Posted by carmelapple
<...>
I seriously feel bad for people at Microsoft.
<...>
No, it is not you to say this, but, Ballmer, like the devil in Monty Python's "Time Bandits" : I feel so bad, so baaaad .... !!!!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by orangesauce
I've never been a huge fan of MS, but in my book, they've got three things going for them in my book:
Even though they ripped off Apple's UI and potentially caused them great loss for some time, they did push Apple to move toward a real preemptive multitasking OS.
They came to Apple's aid during some dark times. Apple may not be around today if it weren't for them, and they didn't take a pound of flesh to do it.
In modern times, they built their own UI paradigm with Metro and are doing their best with it (instead of doing what Android did in 2008).
I don't think Metro is going to be a great success, but I do find it hard to be mean to them after they started playing fairly and do hope that they find a profitable niche that will allow them to be around for a long time.
What do you mean by "be mean to them"???? You think that's what this is about?
Do corporations have feelings?
First of all, if they did, I couldn't care less, because I GUARANTEE Microsoft doesn't care, love, or want any kind of emotional engagement from its users. User are collateral in a giant chess game that Microsoft plays with its competitors. They're MUCH MORE INTERESTED in vanquishing their competitors than actually making users happy. They just want you to buy their products, so they'll win the game. That's embedded in Microsoft's culture, and it comes directly from Bill Gates' early personality. It helps that corporations make buying decisions based on factors that don't include user happiness.
It's clear you are sympathetic to Microsoft, but I'm not going to be "nicer" to Microsoft because you think they're so wonderful and caring. I don't think that's unfair. I work in Fortune 500 and my company forces me to use Windows and other Microsoft products at work, which I put up with. I can barely tolerate them. Software with clumsy, fussy design, buttons galore, unintuitive user interface, and weird error messages. Applications that don't just work. Installations that fail. Contact your Administrator, says Windows. Yeah, you need an IT department to use Windows. And I've been putting up with this for decades. I come home and use my Mac and iPad, and it's breath of fresh air. That's the reason I dislike Microsoft: because they just don't get it. You can't just put shiny new Metro wallpaper over Windows 7 and convince me that Microsoft has changed its spots.
well, i see no one here has considered that MS might team up with Barnes and Noble for a Windows RT version of the Nook. MS already made a deal with B&N months ago to invest in something ...
the advantages to both are obvious: MS gets a complete Bookstore/Reader instantly, and an established slightly successful partner brand. B&N gets special access to the future MS Windows ecosystem, maybe even including desktop Windows.
and of course they both team up to fight a mutual arch-enemy: Amazon.
The Nook RT will probably cost $100 more than the basic Nook. But that's still just $300 for a 7".
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum
What I am trying to get at is: What does MS need to bring to the table for an ARM tablet -- to get IT on board? I don't think that price will be the particular issue -- it just needs to supply what IT needs.
Probably not too much. Just what they do as a matter of course: Provide a reasonably good UX, reasonably good compatibility and reasonably good security. If they do that, inertia will supply middling to good sales.
But hey - I can't know the future. I just expect that Microsoft will keep doing what they've been doing. It has worked OK so far, with a few notable exceptions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by richsadams
Probably one of the most cringe-worthy marketing campaigns ever!
That video was so bizarre that it was surrealistic. It is hard to believe that anybody, even (especially?) those in marketing, thought consumers would have launch parties. Christ, not even Apple fans do that, and some of them are totally nuts.
Now a few serious reasons why Windows tablets could be a success:
1. Android tablets suck! Seriously I cannot believe how bad they look. Some people moan about the Win 8 UI, but at least it's got a clean layout like iOS. The android ui on tablets just looks a mess with awful icons.
2. Multiple logins. My iPad lives at home, I have no reason to take it anywhere but it quite clearly is my iPad. My wife cant have a photos on it, nor can she have her email on it, nor can it sync with her iTunes. It's a £400 device that we don't need 2 of, but it can only be set up for one user to use all the features. Seriously add logins!
3. The OS actually does something rather than just launch apps. It allows apps to talk to each other. It has live tiles to show information from apps without opening them.
4. Business. Apple has been slowly eating away at the enterprise market, but last week with ios 6 they made a huge mistake. Saying iOS 6 won't be on the orional iPad, not even for security updates is basically the same as saying the hardware you buy for us may only last 2 years before you have to replace it for security reasons. Now you can almost guarantee that no company out there wants to replace hardware every 2 years, and equally no company wants devices that are no longer getting security updates!
A lot of us assumed this would happen after the recent announcement. But, is this a big enough announcement to have a special meeting?
Quote:
Originally Posted by macarena
Whether or not MS builds its own tablet, I think a Windows tablet has a reasonable chance of success for following reasons:
- MS still has a lions share of desktop OS - so any perceived compatibility or familiarity will give Windows tablets a boost out of the gate - even if there is no real similarity.
- Android tablets are in a mess - Samsung and Motorola just cannot compete with Amazon's $199 (and soon $149) tablets - plus the innumerable tablets at even less than $100 coming from dozens of companies. The Android tablet space has gotten commoditized before it even became big.
- Ecosystem is everything - and in Android's case, Amazon is the only one with some chance of success as an ecosystem. Google's ecosystem components (Mail, Docs, Youtube, etc) are available on all tablets, so that does not add any value to Android).
- MS will definitely have a version of Office available for its own OS. And you can bet that they will not support Android. They may or may not support iPad - or they might support iPad later on. Office will be a killer app for Windows tablets.
- MS is not as late to the tablet space as it was in Phones. Other than Apple, no one has managed success in tablets, so MS has a shot at being a respectable #2 if they don't mess things up. At some point, MS will release dev tools that allow compilation of existing Windows Apps for the tablet form factor.
- MS probably will not see anywhere near the patent hassles that other Android makers are seeing.
Your first point - While MS has the lion's share of Desktop OS, it is throwing that all away by not matching it with Windows 8, and Windows RT. Keep in mind that where MS is weakest is on the mobile computer market. This is where the movers and shakers are and this is where Apple has made the biggest impact with their iPhones and iPads. The desktop computers are operated by the worker bees in the corporate environment. They will run whatever the management sets in front of them. Management, as you ascend in the organization is more enamored with the iDevices and more likely to work on an Apple laptop than a Windows laptop. Generation Y and Z don't have any warm and fuzzy feelings about MS or Win computers unless they are gamers. That's a slim slice of the market. By being absent from the phone and music player markets MS has went AWOL from the consciousness of the 20-somethings. MS has in effect lost influence on a generation.
Your second point - I agree. Android is a mess and owns the low-end commodity market. Apple doesn't want it and neither should MS.
Your third point - I agree. The ecosystem is everything; and that includes the integration of the desktop computer with the mobile devices and laptops. In spite of MS naming their ARM OS similar to their Intel OS, there is very little integration of the two to date. I'm sure it will come about over time, but that's where Apple has a six year lead on MS. I expect Apple to exhibit a tighter integration of all devices be they Windows computers, OSX Apple computers, iPhones, iPads, or iPod Touches via iCloud. I do expect MS to exaggerate how tight they are going to make their integration, but they are still playing catchup and Apple will continue to press ahead. It will not be a cake walk for MS.
Your fourth point - I agree. The MS Office is a power house of an app suite. Like you, I'm not thinking that they will port it to Android. However, MS is very concerned about monopolistic practices. Furthermore, Apple computers represent a very nice chunk of their Office revenue. I expect MS to make a version available to the iDevices. Perhaps a bit delayed, but available at some time soon.
Your fifth point - Yes, MS has a chance at being a #2 vendor in the enterprise tablet market. And, like you, with the caveat that they don't mess up. Unfortunately MS is quite good at messing up. In the past, with their size in the OS market, they could afford to bumble their way along. In this faster moving market, such mis-steps have greater consequences. Also, MS doesn't lead in this market. They need to really tighten up their act to succeed.
Your sixth point - I agree. MS is not copying Apple with their new OS. I'd be surprised if Apple sues MS this time around.
An additional point - You didn't bring it up but MS has a long-standing good relationship with enterprise IT managers. They would be remiss in not leveraging it to see more of their phones and tablets sold to that market. However, in the meantime Apple has made some very powerful connection with the IT departments with the iPhones, iPads, and even with their Macs. Many of the enterprise IT departments are open to the BYOD concept. It's not as Windows exclusive world it once was. MS won't be able to button it back down, the horse has left the barn, Elvis has left the building, and the C-level management has been the greatest generator of this movement.
Finally, If MS builds their own tablets, they will have a better chance of getting them placed in enterprise. But that would be at the expense of all their PC partners goodwill. It will be a tough row to hoe which ever way they chose to go.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum
A lot of us assumed this would happen after the recent announcement. But, is this a big enough announcement to have a special meeting?
It doesn't seem to be a big enough announcement to decorate the outside of the building, a la Apple. I mean, taping a sheet of copy paper to the front door is about all MS may do. Ballmer may don a sweat-soaked shirt and do a floor show act, but that's about the extent of effort. They don't even install UPs for their demo computers. No careful planning, no taste...
Quote:
Originally Posted by timgriff84
Can't be argued on an apple site that building your own hardware is a good idea. Until the lumia came along win phones biggest problem was none of the hardware was as good as the iPhone.
Now a few serious reasons why Windows tablets could be a success:
1. Android tablets suck! Seriously I cannot believe how bad they look. Some people moan about the Win 8 UI, but at least it's got a clean layout like iOS. The android ui on tablets just looks a mess with awful icons.
2. Multiple logins. My iPad lives at home, I have no reason to take it anywhere but it quite clearly is my iPad. My wife cant have a photos on it, nor can she have her email on it, nor can it sync with her iTunes. It's a £400 device that we don't need 2 of, but it can only be set up for one user to use all the features. Seriously add logins!
3. The OS actually does something rather than just launch apps. It allows apps to talk to each other. It has live tiles to show information from apps without opening them.
4. Business. Apple has been slowly eating away at the enterprise market, but last week with ios 6 they made a huge mistake. Saying iOS 6 won't be on the orional iPad, not even for security updates is basically the same as saying the hardware you buy for us may only last 2 years before you have to replace it for security reasons. Now you can almost guarantee that no company out there wants to replace hardware every 2 years, and equally no company wants devices that are no longer getting security updates!
1. I hope that you don't think this UI looks better then even a crappy Android tablet.
2. Multiple logins is a great idea. I'm not sure Apple sees iDevices as anything other then personal devices. Maybe there will be a change in store, after all, once all your personal data is in the cloud, the iDevice can be handed off to someone else to fill it back up with their iCloud data.
3. iOS 6 will allow apps to talk to each other as well as to the other computers and iDevices. If you look at the history of iDevices, it has been one of pushing the envelope as it grows. Apple is on their 6th iOS, it's being built up carefully over time, and has, for the most part, been pretty trouble-free. If MS thinks they can jump in with all the bells and whistles working as well as an Apple iDevice, then they are either foolish or have become better at writing software in the last year or so then in the preceding decades.
4. You fault Apple for not supporting the first iPad with the latest iOS version for over two years. Yet no one else, HP, Dell, or anyone else has supported any of their discontinued tablets for over two years. Even RIM discontinued their first Playbook. The tablet market, like the phone market is evolving faster then the computer market. This may go on for a few more years. Third generation tablets will likely struggle with new versions of OS because of forward development of the CPU, GPU, cost of SSD storage and even pixel density. Let's see if anyone out-performs Apple on backward iOS support before thinking they messed up.
I'm not sure multiple logins make sense (I'd even like a Secure Auto Login* feature for Mac OS) but I would like there to be a way you can allow guest access from the lock screen for limited app access, like web browser, Find My Friends, and other apps with limited accessibility in much the same way that you can now use the camera app.
* My vision of Secure Auto Login would allow your desktop to restart into a specific user so that all apps and settings are loaded before you input your password but it boots locked so you still maintain the same security as a locked machine.