Anyone here posting that they want to see the end of Nokia have no idea of their history of innovation, or are too blinkered to see it. I'm not a huge fan of WP7, or any mobile OS in particular, I use Macs at home and work bit I'm pretty mobile platform agnostic, and to dismiss Nokia in that manner is like saying you were glad the Beatles broke up, as they had nothing more to offer.
Nokia used to make phones that they KNEW would bomb, simply because they could and should be made, to test boundaries, to promote innovation. Their R&D accounts for the majority of the technology we currently use in our phones and tablets. They promoted and funded open source in Symbian, Maemo, Meego. They have advanced mobile phone camera technology further than any other company by a country mile, and continue to do so with Pureview. That in my book should be applauded. The N900 is still the best phone/tablet I have ever used, or will I believe. (relative to its power and size).
I like the iPhone, and have owned all models but the 4s, I use a new iPad at home, but I could never imagine Apple or MS now releasing a product that was built simply because they knew they could, certain in the knowledge it wouldn't be enormously successful. They are too much about the bottom line. It's incremental updates, tie people in to your platform, milk milk milk. I know it's good business practice, and it's made them both a mint, but to dismiss Nokia's history of innovation and support for (genuine) open source software shows a total lack of historical knowledge. I would love to see Nokia survive and thrive, but I fear even if they do, the Nokia I grew up with and admired is gone. They could do what they did due in part to their position as the No.1 phone manufacturer by a huge margin - I acknowledge that, but there are others in the space now who fall short, there was also a culture of risk taking and openness within the company that I fear has been excised with these cuts and restructuring.
A sad end, even if they do survive. I genuinely hope I am wrong.
I'm not intending to throw any stones at Nokia when I say this, but with all their R&D they never got it as right as Apple did on their first iPhone.
Nokia's idea of "testing boundaries" was really throwing shit against the wall to see what sticks. Phone companies are still doing that because they have no idea what their customers want. Apple, on the other hand, is plugged into what the market desires, even if their users don't know they want it.
Contrary to how others do it, Apple doesn't add something to the products until it works, and works as simply as possible. Even then, Apple doesn't have all the answers. The iDevice market is evolving rapidly in a myriad of directions. The app developers are awesome at making the kinds of apps I can't even imagine, and I'm sure many have taken Apple by surprise. This includes developers that write apps for jailbroken iDevices.
If Symbian would have ever been as flexible as iOS, or if Nokia had thought to put together an app store and curate the apps, or if... only wishes were horseshoes...
Phone companies are still doing that because they have no idea what their customers want. Apple, on the other hand, is plugged into what the market desires, even if their users don't know they want it.
This is B.S.
Phone companies have a pretty good idea about what customers want. They just need to look at who is turning a profit.
Whether or not they have the right staff/resources to duplicate that is the issue.
True.... but Apple also has a habit of re-inventing themselves and entering new markets. I just don't think companies like Nokia are able to do that.
Remember when Apple only sold computers? Then they jumped in the MP3 player market and eventually ended up changing the music industry in the process.
Maybe you should read up about the history of Nokia before making such incorrect comments
I'm not intending to throw any stones at Nokia when I say this, but with all their R&D they never got it as right as Apple did on their first iPhone.
I'm not intending to throw any stones at Apple when I say this, but it is easier when you get to look back at the work (good and bad) the innovators have done in the past.
Maybe you should read up about the history of Nokia before making such incorrect comments
Maybe you should consider your words more carefully. Nokia, as a company, has made a great many changes (more than Apple and more drastic) since its inception in 18-BFE but nearly a 150 years of survival have absolutely no barring to his comment and the Apple that only 2 years ago made the tablet market profitable, only 4 years ago became the most profitable handset maker in the world, only 5 years ago reinvented the smartphone market and made it the only handset market segment worth watching, which only a decade ago made the stagnant PMP and digital music market viable to consumes and record labels alike, and barely past that came back from near death with a PC line that attracted users and vendor mimicry.
Where is Nokia's phoneix in all this? Where is their rise from the ashes? By this time in Apple's history there was a focused strategy and yet there seems to be little more from Nokia (or RiM) except a shuffling of cards. I like Lumia and I'm convinced WP7 was the only solution to stale there leak but all that is a short term goal. Where is the eschewing of the fat and focus on the near that will keep the lights on? Why do you think Nokia is making all the moves to allow them to capitalize on the future?
Maybe you should read up about the history of Nokia before making such incorrect comments
You're right... Nokia has had a wonderful history.
But now we're talking about the present and future.
Check the headline of this article again for context.
Like SolipsismX asked... what's their phoenix? Their return to greatness? I'm sorry to keep mentioning Apple... but where's Nokia's iPod, iPhone and iPad?
The tone of your comment is that a 147 year old company should be able to weather any storm.
But they're not...
Let's be clear... I have nothing against Nokia. I wouldn't have even thought about them if this depressing article didn't call them to my attention.
Let's be clear... I have nothing against Nokia. I wouldn't have even thought about them if this depressing article didn't call them to my attention.
That's an interesting point. Even back before Jobs came back to Apple as an interim-CEO people still looked to Apple to see what they were considering for the future. They weren't looked upon as market leaders or profitable juggernauts the way MS was (and is) back in the mid-90s, but Apple was still very influential in terms of innovation even if they had little success capitalizing on it.
I see MS trying new things that I think should succeed based on the merits of their efforts but I see non of that from Nokia or RiM. At least with Nokia I see a very attractive Lumia line but it's not good enough in and of itself to save hem. They will need more than "we're not the worse" if they want to see another decade.
I'm not intending to throw any stones at Nokia when I say this, but with all their R&D they never got it as right as Apple did on their first iPhone.
Nokia's idea of "testing boundaries" was really throwing shit against the wall to see what sticks. Phone companies are still doing that because they have no idea what their customers want. Apple, on the other hand, is plugged into what the market desires, even if their users don't know they want it.
Contrary to how others do it, Apple doesn't add something to the products until it works, and works as simply as possible. Even then, Apple doesn't have all the answers. The iDevice market is evolving rapidly in a myriad of directions. The app developers are awesome at making the kinds of apps I can't even imagine, and I'm sure many have taken Apple by surprise. This includes developers that write apps for jailbroken iDevices.
If Symbian would have ever been as flexible as iOS, or if Nokia had thought to put together an app store and curate the apps, or if... only wishes were horseshoes...
Nokia had an App store years before Apple thought of the concept. Just as a point of note. I think one of the smartest things Apple have done was to pass the baton to devs, as they have improved upon some otherwise quite average functionality in the iphone and ipad, especially for core apps. I think you will find that symbian was rather more flexible than iOS is or will be. It still is. iOS is an excellent platform, but I certainly wouldn't list flexible as one of its fortes. Powerful? Yes? Popular? Certainly. Flexible? No.
I don't agree, not at all. Apple is not always plugged into the market, you make it sound like everything they do or release meets with total approval. It doesn't. Using Ping much?
"even if their users don't know they want it." Are you serious? I think it may be more a case of compromises, you mean no-one using an iphone 4 wants turn by turn? No-one wanted new notifications until ios5? MMS? Flagged mail?
They most certainly are not a loss to the industry or consumers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quadra 610
Even on their best day they were no Apple.
They most certainly are not a loss to the industry or consumers.
Yes, they never invented anything you or anyone else use - no loss at all. Sent a text today? Made a call? Like that grid of apps on your phone or tablet? Used the App store? Taken a snap?
You're right... Nokia has had a wonderful history.
But now we're talking about the present and future.
Check the headline of this article again for context.
Let's try to remember what state Apple was in years ago, how do you know that Nokia won't do the same, after all, they have been reinventing themselves for 150 years now.
You, me, no one else knows what is going to happen in the future, but it is rather naive to think Apple is the only one that can reverse issues.
Let's try to remember what state Apple was in years ago, how do you know that Nokia won't do the same, after all, they have been reinventing themselves for 150 years now.
You, me, no one else knows what is going to happen in the future, but it is rather naive to think Apple is the only one that can reverse issues.
Who said Apple is the only company who can reverse issues? Lots of companies had some bad times and came back. But other companies didn't.
Apple was saved when Steve came back and fixed their product line. They really only had one major product line at the time... Macintosh computers. And it was a mess. After a little housekeeping, the funky-colored iMacs put Apple back on the map. That was only step 1
Apple didn't just stick to computers... they branched out. Like we've said... iPod, iPhone, iPad... 3 new consumer electronics markets.
And that's where I think Nokia will have some trouble. (my opinion)
You say Nokia has been reinventing themselves for 150 years... but it's mostly been in the communications industry.
So... what are they gonna do? Just speculate with me. Is their fate resting on the Lumia running Windows Phone?
The mobile phone market is cutthroat right now. There are a dozen companies selling phones.
And let's not forget the importance of timing. Apple entering the phone market in 2007 worked out pretty well for them. But Nokia staging a comeback in 2013 is pretty daring in my opinion. The threats from Samsung and rest of the Android army are bad enough... and then there's still Apple to contend with.
So if Nokia can't fix their problems with new phones... what's next? Tablets could be a step in the right direction... but Nokia will be battling PC manufacturers in a few months. And don't forget about the iPad and low-cost tablets like the Kindle Fire and whatever Google comes up with.
You're right... I can't predict the future. That's why we are having a discussion.
If the key to a company's survival is entering new markets... what new markets can Nokia enter and succeed in?
And here I am, two weeks into owning my Lumia 900, and I suddenly hear this.
Shame... I genuinely liked the phone over my iPhone 4. Not trolling - its a very nice bit of hardware and software.
Quote:
Originally Posted by VisualZone
Hmm, great rebuttal...NOT!! Because I say they're both cr@p I'm a fanboy? So when someone doesn't agree with you they must be wrong? Maybe your opinion is cr@p.
p.s. I don't have an iPhone. My company pays for my cellphone so all I have to pay for is my land line.
p.s.s. One more thing Kerplunk...Microsoft blows!!
"Microsoft Blows" makes you sound like a fan boy. Stop popping candy rocks and kool aid, look at what you have posted and be ashamed of yourself.
Comments
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram
LOL. Your own post proves your point.
Explain what a 'tangency' has to do with the point you're making?
Add: /s
Umm... How many tangents are there to a point?
Here's another one. Under what kind of curved space can parallel arguments collide??
Deleted
Quote:
Originally Posted by Macky the Macky
Umm... How many tangents are there to a point?
Here's another one. Under what kind of curved space can parallel arguments collide??
Umm... how does tangentiality relate to orthogonality?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scaramanga89
Anyone here posting that they want to see the end of Nokia have no idea of their history of innovation, or are too blinkered to see it. I'm not a huge fan of WP7, or any mobile OS in particular, I use Macs at home and work bit I'm pretty mobile platform agnostic, and to dismiss Nokia in that manner is like saying you were glad the Beatles broke up, as they had nothing more to offer.
Nokia used to make phones that they KNEW would bomb, simply because they could and should be made, to test boundaries, to promote innovation. Their R&D accounts for the majority of the technology we currently use in our phones and tablets. They promoted and funded open source in Symbian, Maemo, Meego. They have advanced mobile phone camera technology further than any other company by a country mile, and continue to do so with Pureview. That in my book should be applauded. The N900 is still the best phone/tablet I have ever used, or will I believe. (relative to its power and size).
I like the iPhone, and have owned all models but the 4s, I use a new iPad at home, but I could never imagine Apple or MS now releasing a product that was built simply because they knew they could, certain in the knowledge it wouldn't be enormously successful. They are too much about the bottom line. It's incremental updates, tie people in to your platform, milk milk milk. I know it's good business practice, and it's made them both a mint, but to dismiss Nokia's history of innovation and support for (genuine) open source software shows a total lack of historical knowledge. I would love to see Nokia survive and thrive, but I fear even if they do, the Nokia I grew up with and admired is gone. They could do what they did due in part to their position as the No.1 phone manufacturer by a huge margin - I acknowledge that, but there are others in the space now who fall short, there was also a culture of risk taking and openness within the company that I fear has been excised with these cuts and restructuring.
A sad end, even if they do survive. I genuinely hope I am wrong.
I'm not intending to throw any stones at Nokia when I say this, but with all their R&D they never got it as right as Apple did on their first iPhone.
Nokia's idea of "testing boundaries" was really throwing shit against the wall to see what sticks. Phone companies are still doing that because they have no idea what their customers want. Apple, on the other hand, is plugged into what the market desires, even if their users don't know they want it.
Contrary to how others do it, Apple doesn't add something to the products until it works, and works as simply as possible. Even then, Apple doesn't have all the answers. The iDevice market is evolving rapidly in a myriad of directions. The app developers are awesome at making the kinds of apps I can't even imagine, and I'm sure many have taken Apple by surprise. This includes developers that write apps for jailbroken iDevices.
If Symbian would have ever been as flexible as iOS, or if Nokia had thought to put together an app store and curate the apps, or if... only wishes were horseshoes...
Phone companies have a pretty good idea about what customers want. They just need to look at who is turning a profit.
Whether or not they have the right staff/resources to duplicate that is the issue.
Maybe you should read up about the history of Nokia before making such incorrect comments
I'm not intending to throw any stones at Apple when I say this, but it is easier when you get to look back at the work (good and bad) the innovators have done in the past.
Maybe you should consider your words more carefully. Nokia, as a company, has made a great many changes (more than Apple and more drastic) since its inception in 18-BFE but nearly a 150 years of survival have absolutely no barring to his comment and the Apple that only 2 years ago made the tablet market profitable, only 4 years ago became the most profitable handset maker in the world, only 5 years ago reinvented the smartphone market and made it the only handset market segment worth watching, which only a decade ago made the stagnant PMP and digital music market viable to consumes and record labels alike, and barely past that came back from near death with a PC line that attracted users and vendor mimicry.
Where is Nokia's phoneix in all this? Where is their rise from the ashes? By this time in Apple's history there was a focused strategy and yet there seems to be little more from Nokia (or RiM) except a shuffling of cards. I like Lumia and I'm convinced WP7 was the only solution to stale there leak but all that is a short term goal. Where is the eschewing of the fat and focus on the near that will keep the lights on? Why do you think Nokia is making all the moves to allow them to capitalize on the future?
You're right... Nokia has had a wonderful history.
But now we're talking about the present and future.
Check the headline of this article again for context.
Like SolipsismX asked... what's their phoenix? Their return to greatness? I'm sorry to keep mentioning Apple... but where's Nokia's iPod, iPhone and iPad?
The tone of your comment is that a 147 year old company should be able to weather any storm.
But they're not...
Let's be clear... I have nothing against Nokia. I wouldn't have even thought about them if this depressing article didn't call them to my attention.
That's an interesting point. Even back before Jobs came back to Apple as an interim-CEO people still looked to Apple to see what they were considering for the future. They weren't looked upon as market leaders or profitable juggernauts the way MS was (and is) back in the mid-90s, but Apple was still very influential in terms of innovation even if they had little success capitalizing on it.
I see MS trying new things that I think should succeed based on the merits of their efforts but I see non of that from Nokia or RiM. At least with Nokia I see a very attractive Lumia line but it's not good enough in and of itself to save hem. They will need more than "we're not the worse" if they want to see another decade.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfanning
Maybe you should read up about the history of Nokia before making such incorrect comments
Even on their best day they were no Apple.
They most certainly are not a loss to the industry or consumers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Macky the Macky
I'm not intending to throw any stones at Nokia when I say this, but with all their R&D they never got it as right as Apple did on their first iPhone.
Nokia's idea of "testing boundaries" was really throwing shit against the wall to see what sticks. Phone companies are still doing that because they have no idea what their customers want. Apple, on the other hand, is plugged into what the market desires, even if their users don't know they want it.
Contrary to how others do it, Apple doesn't add something to the products until it works, and works as simply as possible. Even then, Apple doesn't have all the answers. The iDevice market is evolving rapidly in a myriad of directions. The app developers are awesome at making the kinds of apps I can't even imagine, and I'm sure many have taken Apple by surprise. This includes developers that write apps for jailbroken iDevices.
If Symbian would have ever been as flexible as iOS, or if Nokia had thought to put together an app store and curate the apps, or if... only wishes were horseshoes...
Nokia had an App store years before Apple thought of the concept. Just as a point of note. I think one of the smartest things Apple have done was to pass the baton to devs, as they have improved upon some otherwise quite average functionality in the iphone and ipad, especially for core apps. I think you will find that symbian was rather more flexible than iOS is or will be. It still is. iOS is an excellent platform, but I certainly wouldn't list flexible as one of its fortes. Powerful? Yes? Popular? Certainly. Flexible? No.
I don't agree, not at all. Apple is not always plugged into the market, you make it sound like everything they do or release meets with total approval. It doesn't. Using Ping much?
"even if their users don't know they want it." Are you serious? I think it may be more a case of compromises, you mean no-one using an iphone 4 wants turn by turn? No-one wanted new notifications until ios5? MMS? Flagged mail?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quadra 610
Even on their best day they were no Apple.
They most certainly are not a loss to the industry or consumers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quadra 610
Even on their best day they were no Apple.
They most certainly are not a loss to the industry or consumers.
Yes, they never invented anything you or anyone else use - no loss at all. Sent a text today? Made a call? Like that grid of apps on your phone or tablet? Used the App store? Taken a snap?
SolipsismX - this is what I was posting about.
Once again you you ignore the original statement, I will remind you about this
Please rewrite your posting using the above as your reference and try to disprove it.
Let's try to remember what state Apple was in years ago, how do you know that Nokia won't do the same, after all, they have been reinventing themselves for 150 years now.
You, me, no one else knows what is going to happen in the future, but it is rather naive to think Apple is the only one that can reverse issues.
Who said Apple is the only company who can reverse issues? Lots of companies had some bad times and came back. But other companies didn't.
Apple was saved when Steve came back and fixed their product line. They really only had one major product line at the time... Macintosh computers. And it was a mess. After a little housekeeping, the funky-colored iMacs put Apple back on the map. That was only step 1
Apple didn't just stick to computers... they branched out. Like we've said... iPod, iPhone, iPad... 3 new consumer electronics markets.
And that's where I think Nokia will have some trouble. (my opinion)
You say Nokia has been reinventing themselves for 150 years... but it's mostly been in the communications industry.
So... what are they gonna do? Just speculate with me. Is their fate resting on the Lumia running Windows Phone?
The mobile phone market is cutthroat right now. There are a dozen companies selling phones.
And let's not forget the importance of timing. Apple entering the phone market in 2007 worked out pretty well for them. But Nokia staging a comeback in 2013 is pretty daring in my opinion. The threats from Samsung and rest of the Android army are bad enough... and then there's still Apple to contend with.
So if Nokia can't fix their problems with new phones... what's next? Tablets could be a step in the right direction... but Nokia will be battling PC manufacturers in a few months. And don't forget about the iPad and low-cost tablets like the Kindle Fire and whatever Google comes up with.
You're right... I can't predict the future. That's why we are having a discussion.
If the key to a company's survival is entering new markets... what new markets can Nokia enter and succeed in?
And here I am, two weeks into owning my Lumia 900, and I suddenly hear this.
Shame... I genuinely liked the phone over my iPhone 4. Not trolling - its a very nice bit of hardware and software.
Quote:
Originally Posted by VisualZone
Hmm, great rebuttal...NOT!! Because I say they're both cr@p I'm a fanboy? So when someone doesn't agree with you they must be wrong? Maybe your opinion is cr@p.
p.s. I don't have an iPhone. My company pays for my cellphone so all I have to pay for is my land line.
p.s.s. One more thing Kerplunk...Microsoft blows!!
"Microsoft Blows" makes you sound like a fan boy. Stop popping candy rocks and kool aid, look at what you have posted and be ashamed of yourself.
You implied that
Nope, as I said, go have a read about their history.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Macky the Macky
Umm... How many tangents are there to a point?
Here's another one. Under what kind of curved space can parallel arguments collide??
Strictly speaking, a point alone does not have a tangent.