Microsoft faces 'major dilemma' pricing Surface tablets against iPad

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  • Reply 141 of 209
    dick applebaumdick applebaum Posts: 12,527member


    I just realized that there is another bullet point that MS should be concerned about in their "Surface Dilemma".


     


    Price, apps, legacy software and hardware issues aside...


     


    No one (business and consumers, alike) will buy either model Surface because...  ...because they will have to install the new OS (Windows 8/RT) to use it.  Maybe mid 2014 when SP2 comes out for the new OS.


     


    Paraphrasing Yogi Berra: "They'll be staying away [from purchasing a Surface] in droves [Because of Windows 8/RT].

  • Reply 142 of 209
    tundraboytundraboy Posts: 1,893member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by lamewing View Post


    BS. Most people I know with who use Windows have high-end systems (both laptops and desktops).  If you want to state that people who don't want to spend a lot of money buy low-cost PCs, that is fine, but your blanket statement is worthless. So are all people who buy Mac Minis for the most part cheap?



     


    Your evidence is anecdotal, and anecdotal evidence isn't. Evidence, that is.  Unless they number in the tens of millions, the people you know who have high-end systems will not be enough to sustain a viable market for a premium priced Surface.


     


    The fact is there is no significant market for high end PCs and the sales figures are available to prove it.  It's not a big secret.


     


    So it's not BS to claim that there aren't enough PC buyers to sustain a Windows tablet that is not significantly cheaper than an iPad.  Especially if Microsoft cannot prohibit Acer, Samsung and the rest of them from coming up with products that are priced lower than the Surface.  This will be the same old race to the bottom that we've seen with Windows PCs.

  • Reply 143 of 209
    lamewinglamewing Posts: 742member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by tundraboy View Post


     


    Your evidence is anecdotal, and anecdotal evidence isn't. Evidence, that is.  Unless they number in the tens of millions, the people you know who have high-end systems will not be enough to sustain a viable market for a premium priced Surface.


     


    The fact is there is no significant market for high end PCs and the sales figures are available to prove it.  It's not a big secret.


     


    So it's not BS to claim that there aren't enough PC buyers to sustain a Windows tablet that is not significantly cheaper than an iPad.  Especially if Microsoft cannot prohibit Acer, Samsung and the rest of them to come up with products that are priced lower than the Surface.  This will be the same old race to the bottom that we've seen with Windows PCs.



    That wasn't the claim. The original claim was that PC and Windows users are cheap people. 

  • Reply 144 of 209
    pdq2pdq2 Posts: 270member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by lamewing View Post


    ... Windows 7 works just as well as OSX.



     


    How I dearly wish this were true. I have to use Win 7 ("Professional"!) at work, and nearly every day, I am unfortunately reminded how surprisingly _bad_ it is. It's the death of a thousand little maddening cuts. Not just Windows, but the general Visual-Basic quality of most "professional" Windows software. Gag!


     


    Quote:


    ...where I can input note by writing...which is much faster than typing...



     


    Maybe in Japanese, but certainly not in English.

  • Reply 145 of 209
    dick applebaumdick applebaum Posts: 12,527member


    Adding to MS' Dilemma:  


    LEAK: This Is Google's Tablet


     


    http://www.businessinsider.com/leak-this-is-googles-tablet-2012-6


     


     

  • Reply 146 of 209
    island hermitisland hermit Posts: 6,217member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post





    BA HA HA HA HA! Using a mouse… with a tablet! AH HA HA HA HA!


     


    It just keeps getting better and better, doesn't it.  image

  • Reply 147 of 209
    gwlaw99gwlaw99 Posts: 134member


    "How can anyone even say this? We know nothing about these devices."


     


    Sure we do.  The Pro is bascially an intel PC in tablet form running Windows 8.  Windows 8 has two interfaces.  One for touch and the normal windows interface.  Apps can be written for one or both interfaces.  You switch back and forth depending on what task you are doing.


     


    "BA HA HA HA HA! Using a mouse… with a tablet! AH HA HA HA HA!"


     


    Of course, this would be when you were using it as a traditional laptop.  If you have ever done more than novice editing in photoshop, you would understand why you must use a mouse or a Wacom type drawing tablet.  You simply can not use your finger for any serious editing.  For example, try doing dodge and burn portrait retouching with a finger.  You can't even make accurate selections with a finger.

  • Reply 148 of 209
    marzomarzo Posts: 2member


    What everyone seems to be blind to is the fact that these Forums are mainly inhabited by us Tech-heads who are a bit of a minority.


     


    The unwashed masses don't really want or understand the finer points of technical bling. It has been a slow process, but through the iPod, the iPhone and now the iPod, lesser mortals are realising that for a few dollars more they get something that is easy to use and doesn't need constant upkeep.


     


    No longer stuck with an old Ford Escort (UK) or on Edsel (US), they go for the Merc automatic or Volvo. Costs more, easier to drive, and doesn't need its bonnet lifting every weekend to keep it going. Having worked for several companies, I see how companies using PC's have IT departments significantly (proportionally) larger than those running Mac's. Currently I run at work with a PC, and it breaks my heart to waste so much time just keeping it running. My current job wants me to drive the damn thing (work with it) not fix it (work on it).


     


    Horses for courses, as the old saying goes.

  • Reply 149 of 209

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post






    Quote:

    Even an RT could replace both if your mainly use your laptop just to run a full version of Office.




    Of course you have to buy a brand new version of Office that only works on that tablet first.


     


    RT will have a version of Office included.  This has been known for quite a while.  Best to get educated before ill-informed posts.

  • Reply 150 of 209
    island hermitisland hermit Posts: 6,217member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by gwlaw99 View PostOf course, this would be when you were using it as a traditional laptop.  If you have ever done more than novice editing in photoshop, you would understand why you must use a mouse or a Wacom type drawing tablet.  You simply can not use your finger for any serious editing.  For example, try doing dodge and burn portrait retouching with a finger.  You can't even make accurate selections with a finger.


     


    Please post a vid of how you would use the mouse on your lap or otherwise.


     


    Will you be using one of your legs (I'm assuming you have two) or will you be lying down and using your stomach as the flat surface (I'm assuming your stomach is flat).


     


    Call me curious...

  • Reply 151 of 209
    tallest skiltallest skil Posts: 43,388member
    gwlaw99 wrote: »
    Sure we do.  The Pro is bascially an intel PC in tablet form running Windows 8.  Windows 8 has two interfaces.  One for touch and the normal windows interface.  Apps can be written for one or both interfaces.  You switch back and forth depending on what task you are doing.

    And so every piece of software that runs on desktop Windows 8 is supposed to run on this tablet?
    Of course, this would be when you were using it as a traditional laptop.  If you have ever done more than novice editing in photoshop, you would understand why you must use a mouse or a Wacom type drawing tablet.  You simply can not use your finger for any serious editing.  For example, try doing dodge and burn portrait retouching with a finger.  You can't even make accurate selections with a finger.

    {Citation needed}
    RT will have a version of Office included.  This has been known for quite a while.  Best to get educated before ill-informed posts.

    Yeah, it has to come included. No one's going to want buy that version when they realize none of their existing software works with it! Anyway, thanks. What do we know about the RT Office? Ten to one it won't have half the features of proper Office.
  • Reply 152 of 209
    lamewinglamewing Posts: 742member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by pdq2 View Post


     


    How I dearly wish this were true. I have to use Win 7 ("Professional"!) at work, and nearly every day, I am unfortunately reminded how surprisingly _bad_ it is. It's the death of a thousand little maddening cuts. Not just Windows, but the general Visual-Basic quality of most "professional" Windows software. Gag!


     


     


    Maybe in Japanese, but certainly not in English



    Hyperbole much? I use both everyday and each works fine. Both OSes have little niggles, but if someone wants to start a OS war over them...well that is their choice.


     


    Yes, certainly in English. I can enter Japanese (kana, romanji, and kanji), Korean Hangul and English faster using a stylus and Windows' handwriting recognition faster than I can type (and correct) on an iPad's onscreen keyboard. Using a real keyboard is a different story, but we are talking about using a device as a tablet/notepad. When using an iPad's onscreen keyboard there is not any haptic feedback so real touch typing isn't an option. Even worse, iOS and OSX don't have handwriting recognition...what they have is a joke.

  • Reply 153 of 209


    Four pages of comments and not much intelligent discourse.  I expect too much from this board.


     


    Some things not mentioned:


     


    Win Phone 8, Windows RT and Windows 8 will share a core kernel.  This will make it much easier for developers to write for all three platforms.


     


    Surface Pro will have up to 128 GB of storage.   That wipes the floor with any iPad.


     


    Both Surface's will be expandable with flash memory cards.  Unlike having to pay $100 to Apple for more memory at severely inflated memory prices.


     


    Plug in an external portable hard drive into the USB and get unlimited file storage. Oh, that Apple thingy has no file system. Harder to manipulate files.


     


    People seem obsessed with the fact that a keyboard is available for Surface models.  somehow the Surface fails because of this.  Yet, there are at least a dozen good keyboards available for the iPad.  Did these people think before posting? 


     


    Surface Pro offers instant compatibility with existing Enterprise software, including proprietary.  Can't really say the same thing about the iPad with little to no Enterprise support.

  • Reply 154 of 209
    lamewinglamewing Posts: 742member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by BanExtremists View Post


    Four pages of comments and not much intelligent discourse.  I expect too much from this board.


     


    Some things not mentioned:


     


    Win Phone 8, Windows RT and Windows 8 will share a core kernel.  This will make it much easier for developers to write for all three platforms.


     


    Surface Pro will have up to 128 GB of storage.   That wipes the floor with any iPad.


     


    Both Surface's will be expandable with flash memory cards.  Unlike having to pay $100 to Apple for more memory at severely inflated memory prices.


     


    Plug in an external portable hard drive into the USB and get unlimited file storage. Oh, that Apple thingy has no file system. Harder to manipulate files.


     


    People seem obsessed with the fact that a keyboard is available for Surface models.  somehow the Surface fails because of this.  Yet, there are at least a dozen good keyboards available for the iPad.  Did these people think before posting? 


     


    Surface Pro offers instant compatibility with existing Enterprise software, including proprietary.  Can't really say the same thing about the iPad with little to no Enterprise support.



    No matter what positives you provide the MS haters will still poo poo your comments. Sooner or later you give up on reasonable and intelligent discourse.

  • Reply 155 of 209
    tallest skiltallest skil Posts: 43,388member
    [QUOTE]Surface Pro will have up to 128 GB of storage.   That wipes the floor with any iPad. Both Surface's will be expandable with flash memory cards.  Unlike having to pay $100 to Apple for more memory at severely inflated memory prices. Plug in an external portable hard drive into the USB and get unlimited file storage.[/QUOTE]

    Because that has certainly been a bane to iPad sales in the past with every other tablet.

    [QUOTE] Oh, that Apple thingy has no file system. Harder to manipulate files.[/QUOTE]

    I can edit my files where they're able to be edited. I can send my files where they're able to be sent. I can delete my files where they're able to be deleted. I don't really see how seeing all files at once (even files I can't do anything with) from inside any application is "easier".

    [QUOTE]Surface Pro offers instant compatibility with existing Enterprise software, including proprietary.[/quote]

    Hey, more power to you if you think businesses will actually be buying new software to upgrade.
  • Reply 156 of 209
    theothergeofftheothergeoff Posts: 2,081member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by tjwal View Post


     I run a $500 quad core 3 Ghz desktop.  I guess I'm to cheap to pay $2,000+ for something comparable from Apple.


    Apple is just not competive in the desktop market so the smart (not cheap) money is with Windows whether you like it or not.


    That said there is no way I would use a Surface as a desktop it would be just too underpowered.  The only justification for tablets and reasonably priced(<$2000) laptops is portability.  Apple is very competive in that market.



     


    Apple is _leading_ that market.  But you make a mistake.  Apple isn't competing against MS, they are competing against OEMs.  Most computer buyers today don't self configure, and they definitely don't buy computers based on OS internals. 


     


    To put it bluntly, Your datapoint does not define the 'smart money.'   Most people don't need power... they need connectivity and intuitive applications to support their every day life.   Few of the 7Billion people need quadcore i7s.   But we are now starting on the horizon where they will need a 2 core ARM chip in their phone, and a device for them to manage their life and their business, hence portability.


     


    The MS business model won't sustain in the new mobile computing market backended by the cloud.   They need to suck $100 from every _device_ sold to make their numbers, and PC sales growth is dwindling, and the iPad/highlyPortable market is the only growth market.   So, to hit growth numbers, MS needs to their OEMs to compete in that market. OEM's are failing, primarily due to the cost of Microsoft OS and Office.   Win7 does not sell a computer to a new customer. 


     


    Hence the reason why Microsoft is building a reference platform they can either monetize or set the standard of what usability should be for Windows.


    IF they can do that, then Windows may survive as the top OS.  but they are 4 years behind in a market that they cannot define anymore, only react to.

  • Reply 157 of 209
    island hermitisland hermit Posts: 6,217member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by lamewing View Post


    No matter what positives you provide the MS haters will still poo poo your comments. Sooner or later you give up on reasonable and intelligent discourse.



     


    Reasonable and intelligent discourse??


     


    Hey, pal, we (Apple fans) are not the ones boasting about a pie in the sky non existent product.


     


    What's next... you want us to have a reasonable and intelligent discourse on unicorns.


     


    image

  • Reply 158 of 209
    island hermitisland hermit Posts: 6,217member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by BanExtremists View Post


    Four pages of comments and not much intelligent discourse.  I expect too much from this board.


     


    Some things not mentioned:


     


    Win Phone 8, Windows RT and Windows 8 will share a core kernel.  This will make it much easier for developers to write for all three platforms.


     


    Surface Pro will have up to 128 GB of storage.   That wipes the floor with any iPad.


     


    Both Surface's will be expandable with flash memory cards.  Unlike having to pay $100 to Apple for more memory at severely inflated memory prices.


     


    Plug in an external portable hard drive into the USB and get unlimited file storage. Oh, that Apple thingy has no file system. Harder to manipulate files.


     


    People seem obsessed with the fact that a keyboard is available for Surface models.  somehow the Surface fails because of this.  Yet, there are at least a dozen good keyboards available for the iPad.  Did these people think before posting? 


     


    Surface Pro offers instant compatibility with existing Enterprise software, including proprietary.  Can't really say the same thing about the iPad with little to no Enterprise support.



     


    One thing not mentioned by you... the Surface Pro does not exist.

  • Reply 159 of 209
    lamewinglamewing Posts: 742member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by island hermit View Post


     


    Reasonable and intelligent discourse??


     


    Hey, pal, we (Apple fans) are not the ones boasting about a pie in the sky non existent product.


     


    What's next... you want us to have a reasonable and intelligent discourse on unicorns.


     


    image



    So unless we fawn over Apple's products, we shouldn't expect a reasonable discussion. Never mind, your comment provides me with that answer....Unicorns.../sheesh

  • Reply 160 of 209
    gazoobeegazoobee Posts: 3,754member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by JerrySwitched26 View Post


     


     


    People who use Windows exceed 90% of the population.


     


    ...



     


    This is not true at all.  It's a gross misuse of statistics to say this at best.  


     


    It just shows that you don't understand math or statistics so why should anyone believe anything else you say?  

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