San Francisco to cease Mac purchases without EPEAT certification

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  • Reply 121 of 195
    flaneurflaneur Posts: 4,509member
    solipsismx wrote: »
    That's the problem. Hippies hate baths.

    Except when they could get naked together. They did a lot of that.

    The hot tub was invented just north of San Francisco, by the way.
  • Reply 122 of 195
    tbelltbell Posts: 3,146member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by ClemyNX View Post





    Are you a recycling specialist? Apparently no, because glue does make recycling much more difficult.


     


    For any electronic item to be recycled it has to go to a place designed for that. Gluing the battery to the case is a non issue.

  • Reply 123 of 195
    MacProMacPro Posts: 18,165member
    The really sad thing here is that this EPEAT agency is running the show. They are giving the "green initiative" a bad name by slowing down the process and forcing manufacturing based on an arbitrary standard of "recyclable." The "glue construction" process does make upgrades harder -- but a quick bath in a solution should allow everything to be extracted and that's quicker than a hundred screws isn't it?

    I've read a lot of comments about "those damn environmentalists" as if there were one monolithic hippy controlling things -- the environment is EVERYONE's concern -- we don't want mercury poisoning our food supply or mutated children or poisoned air do we?

    It isn't an either/or position -- something will need to be resolved so that Apple isn't "automatically" kicked out of the process because they don't fit the mold.

    Well said. I couldn't agree more. Perhaps Apple could help the recycling industry with some of those Apple brains.
  • Reply 124 of 195
    isheldonisheldon Posts: 570member
    Is this what they mean by "Liberal Job Killers"?
    Keep the government environmental regulator jobs and kill the private sector manufacturing jobs?
  • Reply 125 of 195
    dualiedualie Posts: 331member


    This is a giant mistake by Apple, and possibly the beginning of a public relations disaster.

  • Reply 126 of 195
    kotatsukotatsu Posts: 1,010member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by jragosta View Post





    It's really sad how we let idiots make decisions for us. Glue does not make the laptop any less recyclable - and Apple leads the industry (by far) in recyclability of its computers.


     


    Ask iFixit. They've been saying for a while now that glued together products are incredibly difficult to recycle.  But hey, Apple can make their laptops 1mm thinner, so who cares about the environment eh?

  • Reply 127 of 195
    danv2danv2 Posts: 29member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post





    Unless your agency wants to take a symbolic stand against Apple then there are plenty of currently sold Macs that have passed EPEAT certification even if they are not currently listed.

    As I stated in the first thread on this issue, I think Apple is moving to a new design that is more iDevice-like and therefore will continue to make further EPEAT certifications impossible. Therefore they being proactive about retaining the control here.

    How many is 40%? How much profit is that really for Apple compared to the retail priced for the millions of consumers that might not buy a Mac because a competitor is making a better system that they can't compete with while trying to maintain EPEAT ratings across their entire Mac line? Let's not forget that other vendors have a vast number of models compared to a very small number of SKUs from Apple

    If anyone is negatively affected here it's the users that rely on Macs in an agency that doesn't want to admit how outmoded EPEAT is or the hypocrisy that they don't require it for other devices. I'm guessing that eventually the desire for Macs will win out before Apple's desire for a few government sales.


    If EPEAT is outmoded, or basically won't listen to Apple's stance on the matter, Apple needs more of an explanation to the public. The educational circles that were the backbone of Apple sales in the early 2000s are owed some sort of explanation b/c of the money spent on them in the past and the rug pulled out from under their feet. In addition, the Federal entity I work for has already contacted Apple and is in talks with them about this topic. It turns out Apple had no clue that we were "big customers" because we bought our machines through a third party - that was not at all affiliated with Apple.


     


    The way it works: Just because Apple does not see the sales directly from the Government to their door does not mean those entities do not purchase quantifiably LARGE amounts of Apple products. There are reasons fiscally speaking to not buy directly.


     


    The negative impact will be felt, and as long as zero explanation is given we're going to see more issues arise. Entire swaths of purchases are being reviewed. I agree that EPEAT might be out of date, but I think walking away is the wrong thing to do. Coming to the table, renegotiating with everyone involved, and also talking this out with big entities is probably a good idea. If Universities, Federal agencies, and other groups were let known about this I think they would have been vocal enough to tell EPEAT to update their requirements for this generation of Post-PC era products.


     


    To do anything else would literally hamstring EPEAT and make it a useless entity; one that Apple helped build. I doubt they want that moniker. "Co-founder of defunct, useless, and incompetent environmental regulators." That's a great title.

  • Reply 128 of 195
    tbelltbell Posts: 3,146member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post


     


    I know what you're saying. Even though I'm bashing San Francisco here, the politicians in my city aren't much better. In my city, the mini-Stalin of a mayor is banning soda! Somebody needs to remind these people that this is the USA and not North Korea.



     


     


    Yes, but only ten percent of people vote. The people get what they deserve.

  • Reply 129 of 195
    flaneurflaneur Posts: 4,509member
    [B]@Tallest Skil[/B]: Does Apple owe anything to San Francisco?

    If not for the western terminus of the railroad, there would have been no Stanford. No Stanford, no electronic engineering for Silicon Valley, no writing students like Ken Kesey to spread the LSD around. No Apple.

    If you had read John Markoff's [I]What the Dormouse Said[/I], you would not make such a statement. Anyone wanting to understand the origin of Apple and the personal computer HAS to read that book.
  • Reply 130 of 195
    mstonemstone Posts: 11,510member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post





    Quote:

    Originally Posted by majortom1981 View Post



    You cant just heat up the glue to unstick it since there is  now a battery in the way.




    You're right, that's dangerous, but I don't think you saw my comment. I think you could heat from behind the metal, not the battery side of the bond.



    The thing about not complying with EPEAT standards is the disassembly with common tools part. I don't think a heat gun is a common tool at least not in the sense of a screwdriver or wire cutters.


     


    Gluing the battery does make sense from an assembly perspective, we just need to wait and see what Apple's plans are with regard to recycling the new MBP. It would be inconsistent for them to disregard the recyclability of the product since all other aspects of their enterprise seems to focus quite deliberately on environmental responsibility such as the case with their green initiatives in their data center construction.

  • Reply 131 of 195
    tallest skiltallest skil Posts: 43,399member
    flaneur wrote: »
    If not for the western terminus of the railroad, there would have been no Stanford. No Stanford, no electronic engineering for Silicon Valley, no writing students like Ken Kesey to spread the LSD around. No Apple.
    If you had read John Markoff's What the Dormouse Said, you would not make such a statement. Anyone wanting to understand the origin of Apple and the personal computer HAS to read that book.

    Guess San Francisco owes a ton to the Spanish Empire, who in turn owes a lot to the Roman Empire.

    You can only take the butterfly effect back so far before it stops mattering and people stop caring.
  • Reply 132 of 195
    flaneurflaneur Posts: 4,509member
    mstone wrote: »
    The thing about not complying with EPEAT standards is the disassembly with common tools part. I don't think a heat gun is a common tool at least not in the sense of a screwdriver or wire cutters.

    Gluing the battery does make sense from an assembly perspective, we just need to wait and see what Apple's plans are with regard to recycling the new MBP. It would be inconsistent for them to disregard the recyclability of the product since all other aspects of their enterprise seems to focus quite deliberately on environmental responsibility such as the case with their green initiatives in their data center construction.

    There you go trying to be reasonable again.

    I wonder if there is another reason or two for gluing the battery, like heat transfer, or reliability (a screwed and bracketed battery can work loose in a portable, for example)?
  • Reply 133 of 195
    jetzjetz Posts: 1,293member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by jmgregory1 View Post



    For those that complain that Apple is going backward with the recycle-ability of their computers are missing the point. The problem isn't Apple or their products, it's the EPEAT certification that has not kept up with advances and changes in computer product manufacturing. I can just see the conversations Apple had with EPEAT people. Apple, "So we've made our products better with less or no toxic chemicals and they are fully recyclable and we'd like you to update the certification protocol to address this." EPEAT staff, "But Apple, none of the other manufacturers are able to produce their computers in the same way and they would all become out of spec if we made the change - so we're not going to change until the majority of other computer manufacturers copy your production methods."

    Apple's response, "Go screw yourselves. We'll create our own program that makes your antiquated system look like exactly what it is - worthless."

    I would make bets that I'm not far off from how things played out.


     


    Probably close to the truth.




    Part of government standards like these is also ensuring competitiveness.  If only Apple were able to meet stringent standards, they would in effect become a sole source supplier.  Try explaining that to taxpayers.


     


    I don't get the slamming of San Francisco.  It's standard for many governments at municipal and state level to follow federal standards.  Why would anybody expect San Fran to suddenly re-write the book for Apple?  Would all of you feel the same way if the city council re-wrote their buying guide to qualify a non-compliant car manufacturer?

  • Reply 134 of 195
    flaneurflaneur Posts: 4,509member
    Guess San Francisco owes a ton to the Spanish Empire, who in turn owes a lot to the Roman Empire.
    You can only take the butterfly effect back so far before it stops mattering and people stop caring.

    Bull. We are talking about two or three steps, and you know it, or you should know it.

    History is an ecosystem. Whether YOU care or not is beside the point.
  • Reply 135 of 195


    The non-upgradeability of the RMBP has just about tipped me away from buying an Apple replacement for my 2007 MBP.  I already have an iPad, and I hate it...it feels like an iJail and not a walled garden.  Figuring out how to move files around from program to program is excruciatingly frustrating.  If you don't want to do things Apple's way on the device, well...actually you have to do it Apple's way.  If iOS is the future of computing, I want no part of it.  I have watched NeXT grow in my university days...it was a beautiful operating system, designed right from the ground up.  When it became OS X I was quite happy.  I love its elegance, from how it integrates pdf throughout the system, to how its security features are practical but not intrusive.  Using an iPad has been a rude awakening.  The simple fact that I cannot see my own root filesystem is irksome beyond belief.  


     


    There seems to be a philosophy growing at Apple that takes control away from the user.  Freedom to upgrade in the case of most Apple devices, and now of late even in their latest laptop.  Freedom to tinker and explore in the case of iOS.  Yes Apple devices are pleasant to use.  They are simple, they are pretty.  But I am not willing to give up my freedoms for the sake of a few mm, a few pounds, or a bit of increased security.  


     


    I am most likely going to make my next computer a unix laptop of some kind.  I know it will be clunky and unpolished.  I know I will have to mess around in the command line.  I know most users wouldn't really like such a machine.  It won't be unibody.  It will be plastic.  It won't have much of the software that I have grown accustomed to.  But at least I won't be subject to the whims of Apple.  

  • Reply 136 of 195
    hungoverhungover Posts: 602member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post


    I don't live there thankfully, though I did pass through there briefly once. I was there for business purposes and didn't have the time to see much of the city, and I doubt that I missed out on much.


     


    And San Francisco doesn't matter much to me obviously, I'm just commenting on this particular article, which has to with San Francisco and their banning of Macs.



     I am not sure that school trips count as business. Sorry crayon boy.

  • Reply 137 of 195
    jragostajragosta Posts: 10,473member
    kotatsu wrote: »
    Ask iFixit. They've been saying for a while now that glued together products are incredibly difficult to recycle.  But hey, Apple can make their laptops 1mm thinner, so who cares about the environment eh?

    That's not what they say. iFixit does not address recyclability - they address repairability. The difference is that in recycling, it doesn't matter if you ruin something when you remove it.
    mstone wrote: »
    The thing about not complying with EPEAT standards is the disassembly with common tools part. I don't think a heat gun is a common tool at least not in the sense of a screwdriver or wire cutters.

    Which is just one example of why EPEAT's standards are silly. The average homeowner can't recycle their computer, anyway. They don't have the equipment or the knowhow. The people who CAN recycle the computer can easily manage a glue gun.

    If they were to look at in an up/down yes/no black/white manner, then they might come to your conclusion.

    But likely, they pay attention to how quickly/easily/economically it can be recycled.

    Kind of like redeveloping land - toxic waste dumps can most certainly be reused and redeveloped, but compared to clean sites, it is not quite the same. 

    Really? OK, let's have a race. You can have a computer case with the battery screwed in with 3 or 4 screws. I'll have a glued battery with a powered paint scraper. I can remove the battery in under 2 seconds. How long is it going to take you to removed 3 or 4 screws and put them in the appropriate bins for recycling?
  • Reply 138 of 195
    hungoverhungover Posts: 602member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post





    Even more would say it's insane that someone else thinks they can tell me what I can eat and in what quantities.


     Is that any more or less insane than criticising bodies who were convinced by Apple et al that they should only purchase EPEAT registered products in the first place 

  • Reply 139 of 195

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by jragosta View Post



    Really? OK, let's have a race. You can have a computer case with the battery screwed in with 3 or 4 screws. I'll have a glued battery with a powered paint scraper. I can remove the battery in under 2 seconds. How long is it going to take you to removed 3 or 4 screws and put them in the appropriate bins for recycling?


     


    Go ahead with your heated paint scraper.  I'll bet you wouldn't like to get a job scraping such batteries off with a heated blade for a few years.  See how you like placing a heated object near a lithium cells filled with lots of fun toxic volatile chemicals day in and day out.  Take a nice deep breath.  Mmmmmm...cancer.

  • Reply 140 of 195
    tallest skiltallest skil Posts: 43,399member
    [quote name="Flaneur" url="/t/151192/san-francisco-to-cease-mac-purchases-without-epeat-certification/120#post_2144102"]Bull. We are talking about two or three steps, and you know it, or you should know it. [/QUOTE]

    And Steve could have bought a muscle car instead of a Volkswagen van or just hit his brakes too late one time and boom, no Apple.

    The butterfly effect is so fickle as to be meaningless. Since all instances of every event do exist and occur, you can't idolize the ones you remember from your timeline.
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