Which parts are nonsense/lies? Browsers have cookies that store data and they store IDs. Google can't rely on data being stored in the browser as it can get flushed so it gets stored in their databases (Big Table). When you visit a Google service it looks up the unique signature for identification. To violate your privacy that unique signature would have to be linked to your Google profile.
Google says that wasn't the case (I'm aware you don't believe them but that's not their problem) so the alternative I described is that they created an independent minimal profile to allow some personalisation (only if the user has enabled this in their Google profile) but didn't link the data with your account.
Even if they had linked it to the Google profile, tell me how you (or anyone else) have suffered as a result. Give me an example of the consequences of the privacy violation.
Yet, we should believe Google when they do some vague hand waiving about anonymity after talking about personalization and checking to see if you were logged into Google services. And we should accept some fantastic concocted explanation from you as to how that could be possible, involving "minimal profiles"?
I think it makes a lot more sense to look at what they actually said, which is self-contradictory (often a sign that someone isn't telling the truth, or at least isn't being entirely straightforward), and to look at Googles history of dishonesty, they having lied to the public and regulators on numerous occasions, and come to the only conclusion that fits the facts without rewriting them: they lied, they violated individuals privacy with no actual anonymity, and then lied about that.
What are the consequences of the privacy violation? That's a little like asking someone, the day after a potent carcinogen is dumped into a city's water supply, "What's the harm? Nobody got cancer, did they? Can you point to anyone who got cancer as a result of this?" Sounds pretty absurd and beside the point, doesn't it? That's how your question sounds to me.
But, an assault on privacy, even when it doesn't lead to immediate harm to a specific individual, is still an attack on liberty and a free society, and an attack on all that societies citizens. The harm is that as companies like Google do their utmost to whittle away at privacy, they also whittle away at our freedom. Privacy is a necessary condition of freedom, and without one, we do not have the other. A piece of both stolen here, a piece there. No one even notices until one day we wake up and realize that it's all gone.
As to your comments on WebM, and despite your backtracking on what you meant by open, which isn't open at all, but apparently just free, I'll just point out that Google won't even stand behind WebM because they know it' patent encumbered, making it not even a viable alternative. Since they are aware of this, as evidenced by their (lack of) actions, it's pretty clear that their only reason for introducing WebM was to muddy the waters. Unless of course you wish to argue that they thought they could simply get away with ripping off other companies' IP, like they've done so far with Android.
While anonymous identifier is a bit of an oxymoron, there are levels of identification. If police look for a white male, aged 40-60, that is an identifier but not one that identifies an individual exclusively.
What are the consequences of the privacy violation? That's a little like asking someone, the day after a potent carcinogen is dumped into a city's water supply, "What's the harm? Nobody got cancer, did they? Can you point to anyone who got cancer as a result of this?" Sounds pretty absurd and beside the point, doesn't it? That's how your question sounds to me.
Likening the effects of privacy invasion to contracting cancer sounds pretty absurd to me.
When you hand your details over to a company and they sell them to telemarketing or email marketing firms and bombard you with nuisance phone calls or emails, that affects people far more widely than anything Google has ever done but that happens all the time and yet Google gets the bad publicity.
But, an assault on privacy, even when it doesn't lead to immediate harm to a specific individual, is still an attack on liberty and a free society, and an attack on all that societies citizens. The harm is that as companies like Google do their utmost to whittle away at privacy, they also whittle away at our freedom. Privacy is a necessary condition of freedom, and without one, we do not have the other. A piece of both stolen here, a piece there. No one even notices until one day we wake up and realize that it's all gone.
What piece of freedom are they taking away from you?
Likening the effects of privacy invasion to contracting cancer sounds pretty absurd to me.
When you hand your details over to a company and they sell them to telemarketing or email marketing firms and bombard you with nuisance phone calls or emails, that affects people far more widely than anything Google has ever done but that happens all the time and yet Google gets the bad publicity.
What piece of freedom are they taking away from you?
It's not absurd at all. You are asking those who value privacy, and understand that privacy and freedom are inextricably linked, that an assault on one is an assault on the other, to show an immediately obvious harm. But, just like a carcinogen, the effects of diminishing privacy are not necessarily immediately evidenced. The analogy is in fact quite apt.
Declaring that there is no harm, just as in the instance of exposure to potent carcinogens, because that harm is not yet apparent, or because that harm hasn't yet produced a measurable effect, is simply a mistaken notion. It also, to continue the analogy with carcinogens, ignores the cumulative effects of loss of privacy.
If you don't like the carcinogen analogy, substitute global warming:. What's the harm from that coal fired power plant down the road? Can you show me that it specifically raised the temperature even a billionth of a degree, that it had anything to do with the melting of Greenland's ice cap? These are all questions that while they have a certain, "Yeah, that's right," appeal, ultimately stem from a complete lack of understanding of the issue, of its causes and of its effects. Likewise with your last question. You might as well ask, "Which cell did it turn cancerous?" or "Which glacier did it melt?" It's an interesting question, only for those whose intent is to deny and dance around the issue, to sow confusion, or who ask out of ignorance.
And, I don't really understand the point of trying to justify Google's bad behavior by pointing to Facebook's bad behavior or the bad behavior of "telemarketing or email marketing firms". Yes, we should cry a river for Google, they get all the blame. The fact is that Google is the focus of negative publicity, the poster boy of privacy violators, because they have become the largest, most egregious, most dangerous offender. Yes, certainly they should all be stopped, but in the meantime, it's natural to focus on the worst, most dangerous, most powerful offender, especially when that offender's MO is to relentlessly work to diminish our privacy, and thus our liberty.
like a carcinogen, the effects of diminishing privacy are not necessarily immediately evidenced. The analogy is in fact quite apt.
If you don't like the carcinogen analogy, substitute global warming.
Cancer leads to pain, suffering, death.
Climate change leads to flooding, fire, drought, death, sometimes a nice warm Summer.
Google's privacy invasion leads to what? More useful adverts?
Google is the focus of negative publicity, the poster boy of privacy violators, because they have become the largest, most egregious, most dangerous offender.
I'm pretty sure I've never had a spam email or marketing phone call as a result of any interaction with Google so I don't see how they are the most dangerous offender. Your local bank is worse than Google. They trawl through your entire credit card history every day - so much as try to buy some midget porn and they are on the phone asking if it's a legit transaction (so I've heard). They try to sell you mortgages, loans and insurance deals - they know all your personals details including contact details and financial standing. They sell your details, they gamble with your money and when they screw up, the government gives them your money. Your local bank is much worse than Google, complain about them.
You're using abstract terms to obscure the specifics of the potential harm caused in this scenario. There are many ways in which your privacy is violated - social security id, passport, fixed home address, IP address, computer/device hardware id, credit cards, drivers license, landline phone number, CCTV cameras, GPS devices. Every interaction you make in your entire life leaves a trail back to you as an individual and you can criticise every one of them under the same warning label of 'privacy invasion' harming your freedom but many are essential to your way of life.
We can all live without advertiser tracking and we can all put up with those schizophrenic ads about how dermatologists hate some old woman who gets rid of her wrinkles or how some lazy stay at home mum is getting cheques doing nothing but the harm caused by living with ad tracking is minimal as evidenced by the fact it's been going on for years and nobody has apparently died as a result or suffered in any way whatsoever.
Also, what makes you think Apple isn't using data to their own advantage? Every question sent to Siri is decoded on their servers. They can absolutely use that info to make products that sell better. How do we know that the addition of sports results didn't come from Apple tracking that loads of people were asking Siri for sports results? How is that different from Google? Apple has your UUID, credit card info and location.
Like Marvin, for all the years I've been using Google's services/products, I've never received calls, emails or anything of the sort from advertisers who got access to my data from Google. Nor have I ever received any sort of notification due to something I did on the internet because of Google collecting my data. I do get targeted adds that appear in a rather unobtrusive manner in Google Search and Gmail but they never get in the way and I barely notice them anyway and they don't appear in Sparrow or Mail either, so they are really not a problem (and I'd rather see targeted adds instead of random adds which have nothing to do with what I usually look for).
On the other hand, I've gotten plenty of calls from my bank, carrier and other companies who want to offer me some service or product, and they are incredibly annoying/persistent most of the time, interrupting me with a call while I work and just trying and trying to sell me their stuff even after I say I am not interested. And in many cases these are companies I've never given my data such as my contact info.
Climate change leads to flooding, fire, drought, death, sometimes a nice warm Summer.
Google's privacy invasion leads to what? More useful adverts?
I'm pretty sure I've never had a spam email or marketing phone call as a result of any interaction with Google so I don't see how they are the most dangerous offender. Your local bank is worse than Google. They trawl through your entire credit card history every day - so much as try to buy some midget porn and they are on the phone asking if it's a legit transaction (so I've heard). They try to sell you mortgages, loans and insurance deals - they know all your personals details including contact details and financial standing. They sell your details, they gamble with your money and when they screw up, the government gives them your money. Your local bank is much worse than Google, complain about them.
You're using abstract terms to obscure the specifics of the potential harm caused in this scenario. There are many ways in which your privacy is violated - social security id, passport, fixed home address, IP address, computer/device hardware id, credit cards, drivers license, landline phone number, CCTV cameras, GPS devices. Every interaction you make in your entire life leaves a trail back to you as an individual and you can criticise every one of them under the same warning label of 'privacy invasion' harming your freedom but many are essential to your way of life.
We can all live without advertiser tracking and we can all put up with those schizophrenic ads about how dermatologists hate some old woman who gets rid of her wrinkles or how some lazy stay at home mum is getting cheques doing nothing but the harm caused by living with ad tracking is minimal as evidenced by the fact it's been going on for years and nobody has apparently died as a result or suffered in any way whatsoever.
Also, what makes you think Apple isn't using data to their own advantage? Every question sent to Siri is decoded on their servers. They can absolutely use that info to make products that sell better. How do we know that the addition of sports results didn't come from Apple tracking that loads of people were asking Siri for sports results? How is that different from Google? Apple has your UUID, credit card info and location.
Mostly, your "argument" depends on a series of tu quoque arguments, along with a facile dismissal of the real issues involved. About 99% of your "argument" is of the tu quoque variety and is easily dismissed by pointing out that the fact that others may be violating your privacy doesn't make it OK that Google or Facebook are. It also doesn't change the fact that Google remains the most egregious offender. A phone call, per se, doesn't violate your privacy. It's an interruption in your life, but the actual privacy violation occurs from the enitity, be it Google, your credit card company or the governement looking over your shoulder. (It's unavoidable that your credit card company knows you are spending money, but it's not unavoidable that they know what exactly you are spending it on. In fact, your credit card company knows how much you spent, and where you spent it, but not exactly what you bought.)
But, you are right that we face a serious crisis of privacy, and thus freedom, in this country, as well as in the rest of the world. We're allowing private companies to amass huge databases detailing our behavior that would be considered shocking if the government had it. In fact, when the government started a program to do just this, Congress shut it down. The idea that it's ok because these are private companies (and because they're all doing it) is nonsense. The problem with the government collecting this kind of information on its citizens isn't that, "the government has the guns," as is often repeated. The problem is that the government has power. Well, corporations like Google have power too and, if they decide to screw up your life, they have just as much ability as the government to do it. They'll also hand all that information over to the government at the drop of a hat, so essentially Google acts as a surrogate for the government in spying on its citizens.
The problem with Google is that no other company has ever proceeded so aggressively and on such a broad scale to compile personally identifiable profiles on so many people. Despite all your examples above, Google has collected more, and more detailed, information on more people than any of the other entities you mention. They have also demonstrated time and again that they have zero respect for privacy, zero respect for the law, and that their word means absolutely nothing.
Late FBI Director J. Edgar Hoover blackmailed sitting US Presidents with information he collected on them to force them to do what he wanted. How long until Google, a company that has demonstrated no respect for the law, if they haven't already, blackmails members of Congress, Executive Branch officials, Judges? You might say there's no reason to think they'd ever do that, but there's no reason to think they won't, eventually, to get their way. The very fact that it's possible it could happen is dangerous.
But the harm from all this spying, home invasion, tracking, and so on, is and will be the chilling effect it has on the daily behavior of individuals. With Google and others constantly looking over our shoulders, tracking us around the web, and now around the physical world, stealing data from our WiFi networks, individuals are already afraid to do things, entirely ethical and legal things, simply from the fear that Google will know. This is happening now, today, so the harm that you ask about occurs anytime anyone thinks twice about going to a website because they'd rather not have anyone know they did. Any time you feel you can't use your phone because you don't want a record in a database that you were at a particular location, you have suffered harm. Your actions, your freedom to act and live your life without the fear of someone looking over your shoulder has been curtailed.
And, no, just because you do something you would be embarrassed for other people to know about, doesn't mean its wrong. Maybe you're gay and in the closet, which you should be free to be. So maybe you don't want ads related to that popping up on your screen that others might see. But, now that we have Google tracking everywhere we go and everything we do, you aren't free to go where you want and do what you want with the comfort that it will be private behavior. You have been harmed, your freedom has been curtailed, by Google's behavior.
And, thus, our privacy, and freedom, are chipped away at, little by little, piece by piece, until eventually, if we allow it to happen we'll have none of either left. So, please, stop pretending that no one has suffered harm. And, please, stop asking ridiculous questions, that are beside the point, in demanding what the specific harm was in each individual violation. While there certainly can be specific harm linked to individual violations, the more important issue, the more serious harm to us as a nation, is the loss of the feeling that we are free to live our lives as we want. And the loss of the feeling, is the loss of our freedom.
Google [...] have also demonstrated time and again that they have zero respect for privacy, zero respect for the law, and that their word means absolutely nothing.
Not disagreeing but would you mind posting some examples of this (links to articles or news would be fine)?
Not disagreeing but would you mind posting some examples of this (links to articles or news would be fine)?
Thanks.
Really!? You aren't familiar with Google's FTC fine for lying to consumers and regulators, with the Street View data collection program and the lies they told about that, with the Google Books Program, with their illegal drug ads that they were fined for? None of those things? You need links?
Well, corporations like Google have power too and, if they decide to screw up your life, they have just as much ability as the government to do it. They'll also hand all that information over to the government at the drop of a hat, so essentially Google acts as a surrogate for the government in spying on its citizens.
Replace "Google" with "Apple" and the statement is just as valid:
I know you said that I'm using other examples to justify the practise but what I'm saying is that you need to condemn everyone and not focus all your energy on Google based on your own preconception of how much you can trust their employees.
The problem with Google is that no other company has ever proceeded so aggressively and on such a broad scale to compile personally identifiable profiles on so many people.
individuals are already afraid to do things, entirely ethical and legal things, simply from the fear that Google will know. Maybe you're gay and in the closet, which you should be free to be. So maybe you don't want ads related to that popping up on your screen that others might see.
I don't think people are afraid to Google for things. If you walk into a store and buy certain magazines or walk around town with another guy, people are going to find out things about you so if it bothers you, you actively take steps to avoid this and you do the same with your computer.
I get ads for mature dating. I'm not saying I'm against it but it's certainly nothing I've been looking for.
please, stop asking ridiculous questions, that are beside the point, in demanding what the specific harm was in each individual violation.
You mean I should stop asking questions that should you answer them might undermine your entire argument? Ok I will assume you've answered them and the conclusion I reach is that you just plain don't like Google, which is entirely your choice. Some of their employess have violated privacy in the past by purposely collecting unencrypted wifi data (which is surprisingly legal) and they have a motivation to use profiling to improve their core business of advertising.
There are reasons to dislike Google's business model but trying to make them out to be the harbinger of the end of personal freedom without demonstrating a single negative effect of anything they've done, doesn't hold much weight.
More than anything else, this looks like a panicked reaction to Siri routing search away from Google and their ads.
Well, that's what industries do when something new comes out. they react, and if they can, make their own product. Apple has been allowed to make their own versions of Google Products before (which can be really awesome sometimes due to the lack of ads), so I guess Google can make their own version of a product as well. As long as it is coded differently, I suppose patents shouldn't hit them in the ass again. haha
I know you said that I'm using other examples to justify the practise but what I'm saying is that you need to condemn everyone and not focus all your energy on Google based on your own preconception of how much you can trust their employees.
I don't think people are afraid to Google for things. If you walk into a store and buy certain magazines or walk around town with another guy, people are going to find out things about you so if it bothers you, you actively take steps to avoid this and you do the same with your computer.
I get ads for mature dating. I'm not saying I'm against it but it's certainly nothing I've been looking for.
You mean I should stop asking questions that should you answer them might undermine your entire argument? Ok I will assume you've answered them and the conclusion I reach is that you just plain don't like Google, which is entirely your choice. Some of their employess have violated privacy in the past by purposely collecting unencrypted wifi data (which is surprisingly legal) and they have a motivation to use profiling to improve their core business of advertising.
There are reasons to dislike Google's business model but trying to make them out to be the harbinger of the end of personal freedom without demonstrating a single negative effect of anything they've done, doesn't hold much weight.
You are wrong on every point whre you've "contradicted" me. You're also wrong about all your other claims, including that which states that no negative effects have been demonstrated. But you're especially wrong when you claim your questions undermine my arguments. Your questions don't even address my arguments, all they do is pretend the issues don't exist. That won't make them go away, or any less real, and, as a society, we have to decide whether we value freedom, or targeted ads. To me the choice seems pretty simple. You however, may feel free to revel in your ads, since that's obviously more important to you than liberty.
...as a society, we have to decide whether we value freedom, or targeted ads. To me the choice seems pretty simple. You however, may feel free to revel in your ads, since that's obviously more important to you than liberty.
Targeted adds are taking away our liberty...right...got it.
I use Google Chrome for iOS on my iPod Touch and it basically features the same voice command search as the video from above. I think it is quite useful, especially for the iPod Touch which does not have Siri. The down side is that the app is a bit slow to start.
Do you honestly not see how the two are connected?
Adverts can target a demographic without affecting your personal privacy. If they know you are a 60+ year old woman, they might show ads for gardening or absorbent underwear instead of bungee jumping. I don't see how that affects that old lady's freedom because presumably she's using her own computer so unless Google is telling 3rd party advertisers that Jane Appleseed, 62, of 22 West Park St, Pennsylvania wets herself on occasions, which has never been demonstrated is the case, then her personal privacy is being protected.
A far more personal profiling is in the likes of Siri, which people use all the time. This is an AI program (Forstall has a Masters degree in AI and undergrad in Symbolic Systems) that learns everything about you to return more appropriate search results.
Siri hears every meeting you schedule, every reminder you set, every destination you search for, where you are, how you talk, your name, your friends' names. It can track you every minute of your life. But nobody cares because once you reach a certain point in your life or browse your Twitter history, you realise that what you do every day isn't all that important. The motivation of an advertiser is not to find out who you are but who will buy what they sell.
Google wanting to have a Siri-like setup isn't much worse than Apple doing it. Saying "I trust Apple" or "I don't trust Google" is largely meaningless because you are talking about corporations with tens of thousands of employees. You can't trust all of them. So what do you do? You don't use their services.
Neither Google nor Apple invented voice recognition, artificial intelligence, nor computerized context recognition.
I am pretty awed with how amazingly Google Voice improved recognition beyond what was available before it. Nothing else to date really works as well (for me at least).
I am very impressed with Siri. It is a great start and is just scratching the surface in terms of potential.
I don't think Google Voice by any stretch was some huge invention that Google should somehow claim sole rights to and sue the pants off anyone who uses voice recognition.
I don't think Siri is some huge invention that Apple should somehow now claim rights to all future improvements in voice based AI either.
Really glad to see Google hopping in and stepping up the game. Looking forward to see what improvements and innovations Apple makes to make Siri better (as opposed to the alternate option of getting Googles offering lost in the approval process and leaving their users without at any choices and possibly even an inferior product).
Hoping someone else comes out of the blue and builds one that smokes them both.
I'll pick whichever works on my device and works best for me.
Adverts can target a demographic without affecting your personal privacy. If they know you are a 60+ year old woman, they might show ads for gardening or absorbent underwear instead of bungee jumping. I don't see how that affects that old lady's freedom because presumably she's using her own computer so unless Google is telling 3rd party advertisers that Jane Appleseed, 62, of 22 West Park St, Pennsylvania wets herself on occasions, which has never been demonstrated is the case, then her personal privacy is being protected.
A far more personal profiling is in the likes of Siri, which people use all the time. This is an AI program (Forstall has a Masters degree in AI and undergrad in Symbolic Systems) that learns everything about you to return more appropriate search results.
Siri hears every meeting you schedule, every reminder you set, every destination you search for, where you are, how you talk, your name, your friends' names. It can track you every minute of your life. But nobody cares because once you reach a certain point in your life or browse your Twitter history, you realise that what you do every day isn't all that important. The motivation of an advertiser is not to find out who you are but who will buy what they sell.
Google wanting to have a Siri-like setup isn't much worse than Apple doing it. Saying "I trust Apple" or "I don't trust Google" is largely meaningless because you are talking about corporations with tens of thousands of employees. You can't trust all of them. So what do you do? You don't use their services.
Adverts can target a demographic without affecting your personal privacy. If they know you are a 60+ year old woman, they might show ads for gardening or absorbent underwear instead of bungee jumping. I don't see how that affects that old lady's freedom because presumably she's using her own computer so unless Google is telling 3rd party advertisers that Jane Appleseed, 62, of 22 West Park St, Pennsylvania wets herself on occasions, which has never been demonstrated is the case, then her personal privacy is being protected.
A far more personal profiling is in the likes of Siri, which people use all the time. This is an AI program (Forstall has a Masters degree in AI and undergrad in Symbolic Systems) that learns everything about you to return more appropriate search results.
Siri hears every meeting you schedule, every reminder you set, every destination you search for, where you are, how you talk, your name, your friends' names. It can track you every minute of your life. But nobody cares because once you reach a certain point in your life or browse your Twitter history, you realise that what you do every day isn't all that important. The motivation of an advertiser is not to find out who you are but who will buy what they sell.
Google wanting to have a Siri-like setup isn't much worse than Apple doing it. Saying "I trust Apple" or "I don't trust Google" is largely meaningless because you are talking about corporations with tens of thousands of employees. You can't trust all of them. So what do you do? You don't use their services.
Just curious, do you really believe the stuff you write? Or do you just think you are making clever arguments by adopting an alternate reality perspective?
"[Siri] is an AI program (Forstall has a Masters degree in AI and undergrad in Symbolic Systems) that learns everything about you to return more appropriate search results." That one was a real gem. I like how you threw in the the utterly irrelevant detail regarding Forstall's educational background. (Or are we to believe he's developing Siri all by himself?) But, the best part is how you concoct this fiction about Siri out of thin air to support your "argument".
The goal of Siri is obviously not to, "learn everything about you." The goal of Siri is to understand everything you say and respond appropriately. But, it's amusing how that little invention leads to your Apple is just as bad as Google summation. No one needs to twist reality to find all the "evil" Google has done. Apparently you feel the need to invent "evil" that Apple intends.
The clear difference between Apple and Google is that Apple has not been found to be repeatedly lying and breaking the law as Google has. In other words, Google is a criminal enterprise, Apple is not.
The clear difference between Apple and Google is that Apple has not been found to be repeatedly lying and breaking the law as Google has. In other words, Google is a criminal enterprise, Apple is not.
Apple has had some run ins with the law and they are minor just like Google's:
Out of all the companies who use Google's business model, they do a good job of protecting their users. The fact they don't abuse their customers when they have so much opportunity to and a motivation to help their core business shows that they are ethical.
Comments
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin
Which parts are nonsense/lies? Browsers have cookies that store data and they store IDs. Google can't rely on data being stored in the browser as it can get flushed so it gets stored in their databases (Big Table). When you visit a Google service it looks up the unique signature for identification. To violate your privacy that unique signature would have to be linked to your Google profile.
Google says that wasn't the case (I'm aware you don't believe them but that's not their problem) so the alternative I described is that they created an independent minimal profile to allow some personalisation (only if the user has enabled this in their Google profile) but didn't link the data with your account.
Even if they had linked it to the Google profile, tell me how you (or anyone else) have suffered as a result. Give me an example of the consequences of the privacy violation.
Yet, we should believe Google when they do some vague hand waiving about anonymity after talking about personalization and checking to see if you were logged into Google services. And we should accept some fantastic concocted explanation from you as to how that could be possible, involving "minimal profiles"?
I think it makes a lot more sense to look at what they actually said, which is self-contradictory (often a sign that someone isn't telling the truth, or at least isn't being entirely straightforward), and to look at Googles history of dishonesty, they having lied to the public and regulators on numerous occasions, and come to the only conclusion that fits the facts without rewriting them: they lied, they violated individuals privacy with no actual anonymity, and then lied about that.
What are the consequences of the privacy violation? That's a little like asking someone, the day after a potent carcinogen is dumped into a city's water supply, "What's the harm? Nobody got cancer, did they? Can you point to anyone who got cancer as a result of this?" Sounds pretty absurd and beside the point, doesn't it? That's how your question sounds to me.
But, an assault on privacy, even when it doesn't lead to immediate harm to a specific individual, is still an attack on liberty and a free society, and an attack on all that societies citizens. The harm is that as companies like Google do their utmost to whittle away at privacy, they also whittle away at our freedom. Privacy is a necessary condition of freedom, and without one, we do not have the other. A piece of both stolen here, a piece there. No one even notices until one day we wake up and realize that it's all gone.
As to your comments on WebM, and despite your backtracking on what you meant by open, which isn't open at all, but apparently just free, I'll just point out that Google won't even stand behind WebM because they know it' patent encumbered, making it not even a viable alternative. Since they are aware of this, as evidenced by their (lack of) actions, it's pretty clear that their only reason for introducing WebM was to muddy the waters. Unless of course you wish to argue that they thought they could simply get away with ripping off other companies' IP, like they've done so far with Android.
http://www.google.com/policies/privacy/ads/#toc-anon-id
http://www.google.com/policies/privacy/key-terms/#toc-terms-identifier
While anonymous identifier is a bit of an oxymoron, there are levels of identification. If police look for a white male, aged 40-60, that is an identifier but not one that identifies an individual exclusively.
Likening the effects of privacy invasion to contracting cancer sounds pretty absurd to me.
When you hand your details over to a company and they sell them to telemarketing or email marketing firms and bombard you with nuisance phone calls or emails, that affects people far more widely than anything Google has ever done but that happens all the time and yet Google gets the bad publicity.
What piece of freedom are they taking away from you?
Presumably Mozilla and Opera wanted to muddy the waters too.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin
Likening the effects of privacy invasion to contracting cancer sounds pretty absurd to me.
When you hand your details over to a company and they sell them to telemarketing or email marketing firms and bombard you with nuisance phone calls or emails, that affects people far more widely than anything Google has ever done but that happens all the time and yet Google gets the bad publicity.
What piece of freedom are they taking away from you?
It's not absurd at all. You are asking those who value privacy, and understand that privacy and freedom are inextricably linked, that an assault on one is an assault on the other, to show an immediately obvious harm. But, just like a carcinogen, the effects of diminishing privacy are not necessarily immediately evidenced. The analogy is in fact quite apt.
Declaring that there is no harm, just as in the instance of exposure to potent carcinogens, because that harm is not yet apparent, or because that harm hasn't yet produced a measurable effect, is simply a mistaken notion. It also, to continue the analogy with carcinogens, ignores the cumulative effects of loss of privacy.
If you don't like the carcinogen analogy, substitute global warming:. What's the harm from that coal fired power plant down the road? Can you show me that it specifically raised the temperature even a billionth of a degree, that it had anything to do with the melting of Greenland's ice cap? These are all questions that while they have a certain, "Yeah, that's right," appeal, ultimately stem from a complete lack of understanding of the issue, of its causes and of its effects. Likewise with your last question. You might as well ask, "Which cell did it turn cancerous?" or "Which glacier did it melt?" It's an interesting question, only for those whose intent is to deny and dance around the issue, to sow confusion, or who ask out of ignorance.
And, I don't really understand the point of trying to justify Google's bad behavior by pointing to Facebook's bad behavior or the bad behavior of "telemarketing or email marketing firms". Yes, we should cry a river for Google, they get all the blame. The fact is that Google is the focus of negative publicity, the poster boy of privacy violators, because they have become the largest, most egregious, most dangerous offender. Yes, certainly they should all be stopped, but in the meantime, it's natural to focus on the worst, most dangerous, most powerful offender, especially when that offender's MO is to relentlessly work to diminish our privacy, and thus our liberty.
Cancer leads to pain, suffering, death.
Climate change leads to flooding, fire, drought, death, sometimes a nice warm Summer.
Google's privacy invasion leads to what? More useful adverts?
I'm pretty sure I've never had a spam email or marketing phone call as a result of any interaction with Google so I don't see how they are the most dangerous offender. Your local bank is worse than Google. They trawl through your entire credit card history every day - so much as try to buy some midget porn and they are on the phone asking if it's a legit transaction (so I've heard). They try to sell you mortgages, loans and insurance deals - they know all your personals details including contact details and financial standing. They sell your details, they gamble with your money and when they screw up, the government gives them your money. Your local bank is much worse than Google, complain about them.
You're using abstract terms to obscure the specifics of the potential harm caused in this scenario. There are many ways in which your privacy is violated - social security id, passport, fixed home address, IP address, computer/device hardware id, credit cards, drivers license, landline phone number, CCTV cameras, GPS devices. Every interaction you make in your entire life leaves a trail back to you as an individual and you can criticise every one of them under the same warning label of 'privacy invasion' harming your freedom but many are essential to your way of life.
We can all live without advertiser tracking and we can all put up with those schizophrenic ads about how dermatologists hate some old woman who gets rid of her wrinkles or how some lazy stay at home mum is getting cheques doing nothing but the harm caused by living with ad tracking is minimal as evidenced by the fact it's been going on for years and nobody has apparently died as a result or suffered in any way whatsoever.
Also, what makes you think Apple isn't using data to their own advantage? Every question sent to Siri is decoded on their servers. They can absolutely use that info to make products that sell better. How do we know that the addition of sports results didn't come from Apple tracking that loads of people were asking Siri for sports results? How is that different from Google? Apple has your UUID, credit card info and location.
Like Marvin, for all the years I've been using Google's services/products, I've never received calls, emails or anything of the sort from advertisers who got access to my data from Google. Nor have I ever received any sort of notification due to something I did on the internet because of Google collecting my data. I do get targeted adds that appear in a rather unobtrusive manner in Google Search and Gmail but they never get in the way and I barely notice them anyway and they don't appear in Sparrow or Mail either, so they are really not a problem (and I'd rather see targeted adds instead of random adds which have nothing to do with what I usually look for).
On the other hand, I've gotten plenty of calls from my bank, carrier and other companies who want to offer me some service or product, and they are incredibly annoying/persistent most of the time, interrupting me with a call while I work and just trying and trying to sell me their stuff even after I say I am not interested. And in many cases these are companies I've never given my data such as my contact info.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin
Cancer leads to pain, suffering, death.
Climate change leads to flooding, fire, drought, death, sometimes a nice warm Summer.
Google's privacy invasion leads to what? More useful adverts?
I'm pretty sure I've never had a spam email or marketing phone call as a result of any interaction with Google so I don't see how they are the most dangerous offender. Your local bank is worse than Google. They trawl through your entire credit card history every day - so much as try to buy some midget porn and they are on the phone asking if it's a legit transaction (so I've heard). They try to sell you mortgages, loans and insurance deals - they know all your personals details including contact details and financial standing. They sell your details, they gamble with your money and when they screw up, the government gives them your money. Your local bank is much worse than Google, complain about them.
You're using abstract terms to obscure the specifics of the potential harm caused in this scenario. There are many ways in which your privacy is violated - social security id, passport, fixed home address, IP address, computer/device hardware id, credit cards, drivers license, landline phone number, CCTV cameras, GPS devices. Every interaction you make in your entire life leaves a trail back to you as an individual and you can criticise every one of them under the same warning label of 'privacy invasion' harming your freedom but many are essential to your way of life.
We can all live without advertiser tracking and we can all put up with those schizophrenic ads about how dermatologists hate some old woman who gets rid of her wrinkles or how some lazy stay at home mum is getting cheques doing nothing but the harm caused by living with ad tracking is minimal as evidenced by the fact it's been going on for years and nobody has apparently died as a result or suffered in any way whatsoever.
Also, what makes you think Apple isn't using data to their own advantage? Every question sent to Siri is decoded on their servers. They can absolutely use that info to make products that sell better. How do we know that the addition of sports results didn't come from Apple tracking that loads of people were asking Siri for sports results? How is that different from Google? Apple has your UUID, credit card info and location.
Mostly, your "argument" depends on a series of tu quoque arguments, along with a facile dismissal of the real issues involved. About 99% of your "argument" is of the tu quoque variety and is easily dismissed by pointing out that the fact that others may be violating your privacy doesn't make it OK that Google or Facebook are. It also doesn't change the fact that Google remains the most egregious offender. A phone call, per se, doesn't violate your privacy. It's an interruption in your life, but the actual privacy violation occurs from the enitity, be it Google, your credit card company or the governement looking over your shoulder. (It's unavoidable that your credit card company knows you are spending money, but it's not unavoidable that they know what exactly you are spending it on. In fact, your credit card company knows how much you spent, and where you spent it, but not exactly what you bought.)
But, you are right that we face a serious crisis of privacy, and thus freedom, in this country, as well as in the rest of the world. We're allowing private companies to amass huge databases detailing our behavior that would be considered shocking if the government had it. In fact, when the government started a program to do just this, Congress shut it down. The idea that it's ok because these are private companies (and because they're all doing it) is nonsense. The problem with the government collecting this kind of information on its citizens isn't that, "the government has the guns," as is often repeated. The problem is that the government has power. Well, corporations like Google have power too and, if they decide to screw up your life, they have just as much ability as the government to do it. They'll also hand all that information over to the government at the drop of a hat, so essentially Google acts as a surrogate for the government in spying on its citizens.
The problem with Google is that no other company has ever proceeded so aggressively and on such a broad scale to compile personally identifiable profiles on so many people. Despite all your examples above, Google has collected more, and more detailed, information on more people than any of the other entities you mention. They have also demonstrated time and again that they have zero respect for privacy, zero respect for the law, and that their word means absolutely nothing.
Late FBI Director J. Edgar Hoover blackmailed sitting US Presidents with information he collected on them to force them to do what he wanted. How long until Google, a company that has demonstrated no respect for the law, if they haven't already, blackmails members of Congress, Executive Branch officials, Judges? You might say there's no reason to think they'd ever do that, but there's no reason to think they won't, eventually, to get their way. The very fact that it's possible it could happen is dangerous.
But the harm from all this spying, home invasion, tracking, and so on, is and will be the chilling effect it has on the daily behavior of individuals. With Google and others constantly looking over our shoulders, tracking us around the web, and now around the physical world, stealing data from our WiFi networks, individuals are already afraid to do things, entirely ethical and legal things, simply from the fear that Google will know. This is happening now, today, so the harm that you ask about occurs anytime anyone thinks twice about going to a website because they'd rather not have anyone know they did. Any time you feel you can't use your phone because you don't want a record in a database that you were at a particular location, you have suffered harm. Your actions, your freedom to act and live your life without the fear of someone looking over your shoulder has been curtailed.
And, no, just because you do something you would be embarrassed for other people to know about, doesn't mean its wrong. Maybe you're gay and in the closet, which you should be free to be. So maybe you don't want ads related to that popping up on your screen that others might see. But, now that we have Google tracking everywhere we go and everything we do, you aren't free to go where you want and do what you want with the comfort that it will be private behavior. You have been harmed, your freedom has been curtailed, by Google's behavior.
And, thus, our privacy, and freedom, are chipped away at, little by little, piece by piece, until eventually, if we allow it to happen we'll have none of either left. So, please, stop pretending that no one has suffered harm. And, please, stop asking ridiculous questions, that are beside the point, in demanding what the specific harm was in each individual violation. While there certainly can be specific harm linked to individual violations, the more important issue, the more serious harm to us as a nation, is the loss of the feeling that we are free to live our lives as we want. And the loss of the feeling, is the loss of our freedom.
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse
Google [...] have also demonstrated time and again that they have zero respect for privacy, zero respect for the law, and that their word means absolutely nothing.
Not disagreeing but would you mind posting some examples of this (links to articles or news would be fine)?
Thanks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Evoken
Not disagreeing but would you mind posting some examples of this (links to articles or news would be fine)?
Thanks.
Really!? You aren't familiar with Google's FTC fine for lying to consumers and regulators, with the Street View data collection program and the lies they told about that, with the Google Books Program, with their illegal drug ads that they were fined for? None of those things? You need links?
That's not a fact.
Replace "Google" with "Apple" and the statement is just as valid:
http://news.cnet.com/8301-31921_3-57408370-281/how-apple-and-google-help-police-bypass-iphone-android-lock-screens/
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2145908/Beware-iCloud-Snooping-software-lets-police-read-iPhone-real-time-knowing.html
I know you said that I'm using other examples to justify the practise but what I'm saying is that you need to condemn everyone and not focus all your energy on Google based on your own preconception of how much you can trust their employees.
Except Facebook or possibly Ping:
http://www.pcworld.com/article/204773/privacy_in_itunes_ping.html
I don't think people are afraid to Google for things. If you walk into a store and buy certain magazines or walk around town with another guy, people are going to find out things about you so if it bothers you, you actively take steps to avoid this and you do the same with your computer.
I get ads for mature dating. I'm not saying I'm against it but it's certainly nothing I've been looking for.
You mean I should stop asking questions that should you answer them might undermine your entire argument? Ok I will assume you've answered them and the conclusion I reach is that you just plain don't like Google, which is entirely your choice. Some of their employess have violated privacy in the past by purposely collecting unencrypted wifi data (which is surprisingly legal) and they have a motivation to use profiling to improve their core business of advertising.
There are reasons to dislike Google's business model but trying to make them out to be the harbinger of the end of personal freedom without demonstrating a single negative effect of anything they've done, doesn't hold much weight.
Quote:
Originally Posted by John.B
When was the last original idea out of Google?
More than anything else, this looks like a panicked reaction to Siri routing search away from Google and their ads.
Well, that's what industries do when something new comes out. they react, and if they can, make their own product. Apple has been allowed to make their own versions of Google Products before (which can be really awesome sometimes due to the lack of ads), so I guess Google can make their own version of a product as well. As long as it is coded differently, I suppose patents shouldn't hit them in the ass again. haha
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin
That's not a fact.
Replace "Google" with "Apple" and the statement is just as valid:
http://news.cnet.com/8301-31921_3-57408370-281/how-apple-and-google-help-police-bypass-iphone-android-lock-screens/
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2145908/Beware-iCloud-Snooping-software-lets-police-read-iPhone-real-time-knowing.html
I know you said that I'm using other examples to justify the practise but what I'm saying is that you need to condemn everyone and not focus all your energy on Google based on your own preconception of how much you can trust their employees.
Except Facebook or possibly Ping:
http://www.pcworld.com/article/204773/privacy_in_itunes_ping.html
I don't think people are afraid to Google for things. If you walk into a store and buy certain magazines or walk around town with another guy, people are going to find out things about you so if it bothers you, you actively take steps to avoid this and you do the same with your computer.
I get ads for mature dating. I'm not saying I'm against it but it's certainly nothing I've been looking for.
You mean I should stop asking questions that should you answer them might undermine your entire argument? Ok I will assume you've answered them and the conclusion I reach is that you just plain don't like Google, which is entirely your choice. Some of their employess have violated privacy in the past by purposely collecting unencrypted wifi data (which is surprisingly legal) and they have a motivation to use profiling to improve their core business of advertising.
There are reasons to dislike Google's business model but trying to make them out to be the harbinger of the end of personal freedom without demonstrating a single negative effect of anything they've done, doesn't hold much weight.
You are wrong on every point whre you've "contradicted" me. You're also wrong about all your other claims, including that which states that no negative effects have been demonstrated. But you're especially wrong when you claim your questions undermine my arguments. Your questions don't even address my arguments, all they do is pretend the issues don't exist. That won't make them go away, or any less real, and, as a society, we have to decide whether we value freedom, or targeted ads. To me the choice seems pretty simple. You however, may feel free to revel in your ads, since that's obviously more important to you than liberty.
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse
...as a society, we have to decide whether we value freedom, or targeted ads. To me the choice seems pretty simple. You however, may feel free to revel in your ads, since that's obviously more important to you than liberty.
Targeted adds are taking away our liberty...right...got it.
Originally Posted by Evoken
Targeted adds are taking away our liberty...right...got it.
Do you honestly not see how the two are connected?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Evoken
Targeted adds are taking away our liberty...right...got it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil
Do you honestly not see how the two are connected?
Do you honestly believe that's the gist of what I said?
I use Google Chrome for iOS on my iPod Touch and it basically features the same voice command search as the video from above. I think it is quite useful, especially for the iPod Touch which does not have Siri. The down side is that the app is a bit slow to start.
Adverts can target a demographic without affecting your personal privacy. If they know you are a 60+ year old woman, they might show ads for gardening or absorbent underwear instead of bungee jumping. I don't see how that affects that old lady's freedom because presumably she's using her own computer so unless Google is telling 3rd party advertisers that Jane Appleseed, 62, of 22 West Park St, Pennsylvania wets herself on occasions, which has never been demonstrated is the case, then her personal privacy is being protected.
A far more personal profiling is in the likes of Siri, which people use all the time. This is an AI program (Forstall has a Masters degree in AI and undergrad in Symbolic Systems) that learns everything about you to return more appropriate search results.
Siri hears every meeting you schedule, every reminder you set, every destination you search for, where you are, how you talk, your name, your friends' names. It can track you every minute of your life. But nobody cares because once you reach a certain point in your life or browse your Twitter history, you realise that what you do every day isn't all that important. The motivation of an advertiser is not to find out who you are but who will buy what they sell.
Google wanting to have a Siri-like setup isn't much worse than Apple doing it. Saying "I trust Apple" or "I don't trust Google" is largely meaningless because you are talking about corporations with tens of thousands of employees. You can't trust all of them. So what do you do? You don't use their services.
Neither Google nor Apple invented voice recognition, artificial intelligence, nor computerized context recognition.
I am pretty awed with how amazingly Google Voice improved recognition beyond what was available before it. Nothing else to date really works as well (for me at least).
I am very impressed with Siri. It is a great start and is just scratching the surface in terms of potential.
I don't think Google Voice by any stretch was some huge invention that Google should somehow claim sole rights to and sue the pants off anyone who uses voice recognition.
I don't think Siri is some huge invention that Apple should somehow now claim rights to all future improvements in voice based AI either.
Really glad to see Google hopping in and stepping up the game. Looking forward to see what improvements and innovations Apple makes to make Siri better (as opposed to the alternate option of getting Googles offering lost in the approval process and leaving their users without at any choices and possibly even an inferior product).
Hoping someone else comes out of the blue and builds one that smokes them both.
I'll pick whichever works on my device and works best for me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin
Adverts can target a demographic without affecting your personal privacy. If they know you are a 60+ year old woman, they might show ads for gardening or absorbent underwear instead of bungee jumping. I don't see how that affects that old lady's freedom because presumably she's using her own computer so unless Google is telling 3rd party advertisers that Jane Appleseed, 62, of 22 West Park St, Pennsylvania wets herself on occasions, which has never been demonstrated is the case, then her personal privacy is being protected.
A far more personal profiling is in the likes of Siri, which people use all the time. This is an AI program (Forstall has a Masters degree in AI and undergrad in Symbolic Systems) that learns everything about you to return more appropriate search results.
Siri hears every meeting you schedule, every reminder you set, every destination you search for, where you are, how you talk, your name, your friends' names. It can track you every minute of your life. But nobody cares because once you reach a certain point in your life or browse your Twitter history, you realise that what you do every day isn't all that important. The motivation of an advertiser is not to find out who you are but who will buy what they sell.
Google wanting to have a Siri-like setup isn't much worse than Apple doing it. Saying "I trust Apple" or "I don't trust Google" is largely meaningless because you are talking about corporations with tens of thousands of employees. You can't trust all of them. So what do you do? You don't use their services.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin
Adverts can target a demographic without affecting your personal privacy. If they know you are a 60+ year old woman, they might show ads for gardening or absorbent underwear instead of bungee jumping. I don't see how that affects that old lady's freedom because presumably she's using her own computer so unless Google is telling 3rd party advertisers that Jane Appleseed, 62, of 22 West Park St, Pennsylvania wets herself on occasions, which has never been demonstrated is the case, then her personal privacy is being protected.
A far more personal profiling is in the likes of Siri, which people use all the time. This is an AI program (Forstall has a Masters degree in AI and undergrad in Symbolic Systems) that learns everything about you to return more appropriate search results.
Siri hears every meeting you schedule, every reminder you set, every destination you search for, where you are, how you talk, your name, your friends' names. It can track you every minute of your life. But nobody cares because once you reach a certain point in your life or browse your Twitter history, you realise that what you do every day isn't all that important. The motivation of an advertiser is not to find out who you are but who will buy what they sell.
Google wanting to have a Siri-like setup isn't much worse than Apple doing it. Saying "I trust Apple" or "I don't trust Google" is largely meaningless because you are talking about corporations with tens of thousands of employees. You can't trust all of them. So what do you do? You don't use their services.
Just curious, do you really believe the stuff you write? Or do you just think you are making clever arguments by adopting an alternate reality perspective?
"[Siri] is an AI program (Forstall has a Masters degree in AI and undergrad in Symbolic Systems) that learns everything about you to return more appropriate search results." That one was a real gem. I like how you threw in the the utterly irrelevant detail regarding Forstall's educational background. (Or are we to believe he's developing Siri all by himself?) But, the best part is how you concoct this fiction about Siri out of thin air to support your "argument".
The goal of Siri is obviously not to, "learn everything about you." The goal of Siri is to understand everything you say and respond appropriately. But, it's amusing how that little invention leads to your Apple is just as bad as Google summation. No one needs to twist reality to find all the "evil" Google has done. Apparently you feel the need to invent "evil" that Apple intends.
The clear difference between Apple and Google is that Apple has not been found to be repeatedly lying and breaking the law as Google has. In other words, Google is a criminal enterprise, Apple is not.
I haven't written anything unbelievable. On the other hand, you wrote the following, which I think qualifies:
"as a society, we have to decide whether we value freedom, or targeted ads"
Explain the process it uses to do that. Here's a link that might help:
http://www.zdnet.com/blog/btl/ibm-bans-siri-privacy-risk-or-corporate-paranoia-at-its-best/77843
So why do you, instead of showing evidence of the evil and the harm caused by it?
Apple has had some run ins with the law and they are minor just like Google's:
http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/199335/20110817/apple-sued-over-clearly-illegal-locationtracking.htm
http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2012/apr/13/apple-ebook-price-fixing-terrifying
http://www.macobserver.com/tmo/article/Apple_Stock_Backdating_May_Include_Fake_Documents/
Out of all the companies who use Google's business model, they do a good job of protecting their users. The fact they don't abuse their customers when they have so much opportunity to and a motivation to help their core business shows that they are ethical.