... There may be a reversible dock connector, but I don't see this audio plug combo happening.
I think you might see something like this from Apple.
The most likely explanation as to how they were able to go from 30 pins to 9, is that aside from dropping legacy things like Firewire support, they also dropped all video and audio out based on the premise that the future for this sort of thing is wireless. The idea seems to be that by dropping it now, the plug won't have to be re-designed in five years when no one is using wires anymore. It also promotes the use of wireless over wires.
If all that is true, then this kind of adapter will be necessary for newer devices to work with older docks and I wouldn't be surprised at all if Apple produced them in small quantities for the first year of the transition or so. There will also be thousands of these things produced illegally in China and sold around the world probably.
The most likely explanation as to how they were able to go from 30 pins to 9, is that aside from dropping legacy things like Firewire support, they also dropped all video and audio out based on the premise that the future for this sort of thing is wireless.
Or at least analog audio. If they're dropping all video and audio, I'm not sure how that'll be received.
I can see them doing it, sure, since AirPlay works so well, but when an Apple TV is $99 and a 6' HDMI cable is $3…
I think you might see something like this from Apple.
The most likely explanation as to how they were able to go from 30 pins to 9, is that aside from dropping legacy things like Firewire support, they also dropped all video and audio out based on the premise that the future for this sort of thing is wireless. The idea seems to be that by dropping it now, the plug won't have to be re-designed in five years when no one is using wires anymore. It also promotes the use of wireless over wires.
If all that is true, then this kind of adapter will be necessary for newer devices to work with older docks and I wouldn't be surprised at all if Apple produced them in small quantities for the first year of the transition or so. There will also be thousands of these things produced illegally in China and sold around the world probably.
1) I see no chance of Apple using the audio jack as a way of getting audio out of the dock connector. You're not only making it kludgy but adding many limitations to the way future iDevices from the iPod Nano to the iPad can be designed by putting the headphone jack exactly the same distanct from the dock connector for many years to come. Think back on how many types, models and designs Apple has had over the last nine years of using the 30-pin connector. If they go that route it's a complete failure of engineering.
2) You haven't accounted for video in your "5 year plan." You also haven't accounted for legacy options that could exceed 5 years for many people. Consider wireless syncing and OS updates now. It was added as an addition to, not an either/or. The most likely explanation is that Apple is using more sophisticated HW that will allow for using the rumoured 8-17 pins in the way that is most appropriate. It's all just electronic signals so if the device knows it's connected to a Component cable then it can send out data that is most appropriate. Apple has probably learned a lot about intelligent cabling from Thunderbolt... and we're not talking about intelligence like we have with TB, just the cable letting the device know what it is, which is comparably simple.
Originally Posted by SolipsismXWith data you're talking about a rumoured 8 to 17 pins that will require sophisticated and complex circuitry to make it reversible.
Complex and sophisticated? On an 8-pin connector? Hell, you can run USB 2.0 on 4 wires, which means if the connectors are solid and pass through I could make it reversible just by mirroring the lines on both halves (12344321) on both sides. If they DON'T pass through, then a simple double-sided circuit board type of layout means I could run 12345678 on one side and 87654321 on the other. No "sophisticated and complex circuitry" needed whatsoever.
Come on people, THINK before you make these types of proclamations.
Add the shield as ground, BTW, and you have the 9 needed to make USB 3.0 cook.
And they'll do it because it's the kind of no-fuss, no-muss end-user friendly engineering they've been doing the last four or five years.
Complex and sophisticated? On an 8-pin connector? Hell, you can run USB 2.0 on 4 wires, which means if the connectors are solid and pass through I could make it reversible just by mirroring the lines on both halves (12344321) on both sides. If they DON'T pass through, then a simple double-sided circuit board type of layout means I could run 12345678 on one side and 87654321 on the other. No "sophisticated <span style="background-color:rgb(241,241,241);">and complex circuitry" needed whatsoever.</span>
<span style="background-color:rgb(241,241,241);">Come on people, THINK before you make these types of </span>
proclamations.
<span style="background-color:rgb(241,241,241);">Add the shield as ground, BTW, and you have the 9 needed to make USB 3.0 cook. </span>
<span style="background-color:rgb(241,241,241);">And they'll do it because it's the kind of no-fuss, no-muss end-user friendly </span>
engineering they've been doing the last four or five years.
Speaking of thinking, you think 5 or 10 years from now USB 2.0 will be sufficient for the same dock connector? Speaking of thinking, you don't know that USB 3.0 is 9 pins. Speaking of thinking you don't think a 17 pin design in the cable that uses a 9 pin design in the device doesn't add an unprecedented level of complexity or sophistication. Speaking of thinking, you don't think including circuitry that will allow for any number of transmission protocols over 9 wires based on the cable connected doesn't add an unprecedented level of complexity or sophistication. Speaking of thinking, indeed.
You're not only making it kludgy but adding many limitations to the way future iDevices from the iPod Nano to the iPad can be designed by putting the headphone jack exactly the same distanct from the dock connector for many years to come.
You're not thinking again. This kind of connector is a transition device. Nothing more, nothing less. Apple probably knows within a week just how often people transition docks and speakers and other accessories (18 months), and an adaptor like this one gets them over that hump, after which people will simply byte the bullet and upgrade the rest of their gear.
So the new iDevices coming out will have black and white sides???? (the nano sim card tray was black in a recent photo) Why are they going to be black and white again? Why not colors like when they did with the 1998 iMac? I mean I know they can't blend glass, ( the front definately would have to stay black but they can color the sides and rear metal like in the iPod Shuffles or Nano's.... Whatever happened to colors? Are we living in a black and white world where colors don't exist anymore? And don't tell me to slip a case on it, they're ugly.
I love you!
I'm soooo waiting for a green iPhone! Like the mini colors!
You're not thinking again. This kind of connector is a transition device. Nothing more, nothing less. Apple probably knows within a week just how often people transition docks and speakers and other accessories (18 months), and an adaptor like this one gets them over that hump, after which people will simply byte the bullet and upgrade the rest of their gear.
That's fucking stupid! Seriously! They've used the same connector style for nearly a decade and you're proposing as the only viable option a temporary stand in option that will completely kill the accessories market. A solution that will won't allow any video or audio line-out. It's a damn good thing you don't work for Apple.
The setup of plug plus headphone plug is just so unappealing. Sure a headphone plug was used for shuffle, but this is worse.
But that was the only port on the Shuffle. It was a brilliant design. It's also a very small capacity device. Besides being unappealing it's suggesting that iPods, iPhone and iPads would all have the headphone jack the exact same distance from the dock connector because Apple wouldn't put in the number of pins and/or circuitry to allow for the additional features of the dock connector port. That all sounds ludicrous.
Speaking of thinking, you think 5 or 10 years from now USB 2.0 will be sufficient for the same dock connector? Speaking of thinking, you don't know that USB 3.0 is 9 pins. Speaking of thinking you don't think a 17 pin design in the cable that uses a 9 pin design in the device doesn't add an unprecedented level of complexity or sophistication. Speaking of thinking, you don't think including circuitry that will allow for any number of transmission protocols over 9 wires based on the cable connected doesn't add an unprecedented level of complexity or sophistication. Speaking of thinking, indeed.
No, I don't think 2.0 will suffice, that's why I mentioned USB 3.0, the standard implementation of which uses 9-pins. However, with Apple doing a custom plug, I doubt their implementation will be standard. And I don't doubt their implementation will be sophisticated. I merely stated that you don't needs tons of "sophisticated" circuitry to do a reversible 8-pin (plus ground) connector.
No, I don't think 2.0 will suffice, that's why I mentioned USB 3.0, the standard implementation of which uses 9-pins. However, with Apple doing a custom plug, I doubt their implementation will be standard. And I don't doubt their implementation will be sophisticated. I merely stated that you don't needs tons of "sophisticated" circuitry to do a reversible 8-pin (plus ground) connector.
1) So you think a reversible 8-pin plug for a 9-pin USB 3.0 standard is neither complex nor sophisticated? Really?
2) If you're talking 9 pins on the device that means there is 17 on the cable or 5 pins on the device which means 8 pins on the cable. That is both sophisticate and complex. Show me another non-cylindrial data cable that works the same way.
3) So lets consider your 8 pin design and then consider that USB 3.0 used 9 pins. Then lets consider the other pins that video out and audio line-out need, not to mention the other pins Apple has used and still uses in their dock connector for the accessories they have. Tell me how killing off the accessories market is your idea of thinking.
That's fucking stupid! Seriously! They've used the same connector style for nearly a decade and you're proposing as the only viable option a temporary stand in option that will completely kill the accessories market. A solution that will won't allow any video or audio line-out. It's a damn good thing you don't work for Apple.
Kill it? Or reboot it? After all, how many speaker docks do you need? But as more and more devices incorporate the new standard, it becomes more and more likely that someone will decide to replace their "obsolete" dock or speakers... resulting in more accessory sales, not less.
Audio line out? Ummm... well, I suspect we're (you're) in for a surprise there. You do know the new cables are chipped, right?
As for video out, yeah, it's as dead as the CD/DVD slot and the serial port. AirPlay over WiFi and low-powered Bluetooth 4.0 are the future.
1) So you think a reversible 8-pin plug for a 9-pin USB 3.0 standard is neither complex nor sophisticated? Really?
2) If you're talking 9 pins on the device that means there is 17 on the cable or 5 pins on the device which means 8 pins on the cable. That is both sophisticate and complex. Show me another non-cylindrial data cable that works the same way.
3) So lets consider your 8 pin design and then consider that USB 3.0 used 9 pins. Then lets consider the other pins that video out and audio line-out need, not to mention the other pins Apple has used and still uses in their dock connector for the accessories they have. Tell me how killing off the accessories market is your idea of thinking.
Sigh. I did say "8-pin (plus ground)" did I not? Have you not seen the... ah... proposed photos of the new connector?
The metal plug is the ground and as such is, in itself, the "9th" pin.
And again, please try to read for comprehension. I said you don't needs tons of "sophisticated" circuitry just to do a reversible 8-pin (plus ground) connector. You implied that doing a reversible connector would add a ton of additional complexity.
The metal plug is the ground and as such is, in itself, the "9th" pin.
And again, please try to read for comprehension. I said you don't needs tons of "sophisticated" circuitry just to do a reversible 8-pin (plus ground) connector. You implied that doing a reversible connector would add a ton of additional complexity.
You wrote "On an 8-pin connector". If you don't know that the ground is a pin simply because it's not inline with the other pins really means you're out of your depth in talking about port interface designs.
Yes, it needs to be sophisticated if you want the cable's interface to be 9 pins yet want it to be reversible and have all the important features of the current dock connector.
You wrote "On an 8-pin connector". If you don't know that the ground is a pin simply because it's not inline with the other pins really means you're out of your depth in talking about port interface designs.
Yes, it needs to be sophisticated if you want the cable's interface to be 9 pins yet want it to be reversible and have all the important features of the current dock connector.
Usually you're 'spot on' but I think you're just 'nit picking' his post. His statement was largely true in conventional thought and I'm almost sure you know it.
There isn't enough material in these pictures to pinpoint anything definitive about... really anything. Let alone which device it my belong to or the means of grounding.
As an aside... I do still believe, after viewing several times, it looks like plastic.
You wrote "On an 8-pin connector". If you don't know that the ground is a pin simply because it's not inline with the other pins really means you're out of your depth in talking about port interface designs. Yes, it needs to be sophisticated if you want the cable's interface to be 9 pins yet want it to be reversible and have all the important features of the current dock connector.
Everyone else -- including you -- was hell bent on discussing the "8-pin" connector, I went along. (grin)
And I DON'T expect the new dock connector to have all of the same features as the current version. If Apple were going to make it exactly the same, why switch at all? The new dock connecter is for streaming data at high speed. No old-school audio-only lines. No old-school composite or component video out lines.
You want audio out or mic in? Use the phono plug. You want data and power, use the new plug. You want to keep your old speaker dock for a while? Use the dock/plug to 30-pin adaptor.
Like I said, Apple has been laying its audio/video groundwork for the future for a while now, and that future is AirPlay. This is a transition. Some things are going to be lost. Accept it, move on, or buy an Android phone.
You're not thinking again. This kind of connector is a transition device. Nothing more, nothing less. Apple probably knows within a week just how often people transition docks and speakers and other accessories (18 months), and an adaptor like this one gets them over that hump, after which people will simply byte the bullet and upgrade the rest of their gear.
I have to disagree with your thought here. The iDevice line owes at least a very small, if not larger, part of their success to the universal charger and adapter. I really think Apple held onto this as long as they could without holding themselves back. So far from everything I have studied they seem to be a long term company. They owe their success right now to their ability to slowly take over a market.
Before I get lambasted, I mean slowly like doubling pennies. Take one penny and double it every day.
BTW, a lot of people will probably cry about the "failings" of the new dock connector... right up to the point where they can sync and move data 10x faster.
Everyone else -- including you -- was hell bent on discussing the "8-pin" connector, I went along. (grin)
And I DON'T expect the new dock connector to have all of the same features as the current version. If Apple were going to make it exactly the same, why switch at all? The new dock connecter is for streaming data at high speed. No old-school audio-only lines. No old-school composite or component video out lines.
You want audio out or mic in? Use the phono plug. You want data and power, use the new plug. You want to keep your old speaker dock for a while? Use the dock/plug to 30-pin adaptor.
Like I said, Apple has been laying its audio/video groundwork for the future for a while now, and that future is AirPlay. This is a transition. Some things are going to be lost. Accept it, move on, or buy an Android phone.
I believe he just didn't like the "short term" reference. I could be wrong...
Comments
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mac_128
... There may be a reversible dock connector, but I don't see this audio plug combo happening.
I think you might see something like this from Apple.
The most likely explanation as to how they were able to go from 30 pins to 9, is that aside from dropping legacy things like Firewire support, they also dropped all video and audio out based on the premise that the future for this sort of thing is wireless. The idea seems to be that by dropping it now, the plug won't have to be re-designed in five years when no one is using wires anymore. It also promotes the use of wireless over wires.
If all that is true, then this kind of adapter will be necessary for newer devices to work with older docks and I wouldn't be surprised at all if Apple produced them in small quantities for the first year of the transition or so. There will also be thousands of these things produced illegally in China and sold around the world probably.
Originally Posted by Gazoobee
The most likely explanation as to how they were able to go from 30 pins to 9, is that aside from dropping legacy things like Firewire support, they also dropped all video and audio out based on the premise that the future for this sort of thing is wireless.
Or at least analog audio. If they're dropping all video and audio, I'm not sure how that'll be received.
I can see them doing it, sure, since AirPlay works so well, but when an Apple TV is $99 and a 6' HDMI cable is $3…
1) I see no chance of Apple using the audio jack as a way of getting audio out of the dock connector. You're not only making it kludgy but adding many limitations to the way future iDevices from the iPod Nano to the iPad can be designed by putting the headphone jack exactly the same distanct from the dock connector for many years to come. Think back on how many types, models and designs Apple has had over the last nine years of using the 30-pin connector. If they go that route it's a complete failure of engineering.
2) You haven't accounted for video in your "5 year plan." You also haven't accounted for legacy options that could exceed 5 years for many people. Consider wireless syncing and OS updates now. It was added as an addition to, not an either/or. The most likely explanation is that Apple is using more sophisticated HW that will allow for using the rumoured 8-17 pins in the way that is most appropriate. It's all just electronic signals so if the device knows it's connected to a Component cable then it can send out data that is most appropriate. Apple has probably learned a lot about intelligent cabling from Thunderbolt... and we're not talking about intelligence like we have with TB, just the cable letting the device know what it is, which is comparably simple.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX
Complex and sophisticated? On an 8-pin connector? Hell, you can run USB 2.0 on 4 wires, which means if the connectors are solid and pass through I could make it reversible just by mirroring the lines on both halves (12344321) on both sides. If they DON'T pass through, then a simple double-sided circuit board type of layout means I could run 12345678 on one side and 87654321 on the other. No "sophisticated and complex circuitry" needed whatsoever.
Come on people, THINK before you make these types of proclamations.
Add the shield as ground, BTW, and you have the 9 needed to make USB 3.0 cook.
And they'll do it because it's the kind of no-fuss, no-muss end-user friendly engineering they've been doing the last four or five years.
Speaking of thinking, you think 5 or 10 years from now USB 2.0 will be sufficient for the same dock connector? Speaking of thinking, you don't know that USB 3.0 is 9 pins. Speaking of thinking you don't think a 17 pin design in the cable that uses a 9 pin design in the device doesn't add an unprecedented level of complexity or sophistication. Speaking of thinking, you don't think including circuitry that will allow for any number of transmission protocols over 9 wires based on the cable connected doesn't add an unprecedented level of complexity or sophistication. Speaking of thinking, indeed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX
You're not only making it kludgy but adding many limitations to the way future iDevices from the iPod Nano to the iPad can be designed by putting the headphone jack exactly the same distanct from the dock connector for many years to come.
You're not thinking again. This kind of connector is a transition device. Nothing more, nothing less. Apple probably knows within a week just how often people transition docks and speakers and other accessories (18 months), and an adaptor like this one gets them over that hump, after which people will simply byte the bullet and upgrade the rest of their gear.
I love you!
I'm soooo waiting for a green iPhone! Like the mini colors!
That's fucking stupid! Seriously! They've used the same connector style for nearly a decade and you're proposing as the only viable option a temporary stand in option that will completely kill the accessories market. A solution that will won't allow any video or audio line-out. It's a damn good thing you don't work for Apple.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mac_128
You mean like this ...
THere may be a reversible dock connector, but I don't see this audio plug combo happening.
The setup of plug plus headphone plug is just so unappealing. Sure a headphone plug was used for shuffle, but this is worse.
But that was the only port on the Shuffle. It was a brilliant design. It's also a very small capacity device. Besides being unappealing it's suggesting that iPods, iPhone and iPads would all have the headphone jack the exact same distance from the dock connector because Apple wouldn't put in the number of pins and/or circuitry to allow for the additional features of the dock connector port. That all sounds ludicrous.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX
Speaking of thinking, you think 5 or 10 years from now USB 2.0 will be sufficient for the same dock connector? Speaking of thinking, you don't know that USB 3.0 is 9 pins. Speaking of thinking you don't think a 17 pin design in the cable that uses a 9 pin design in the device doesn't add an unprecedented level of complexity or sophistication. Speaking of thinking, you don't think including circuitry that will allow for any number of transmission protocols over 9 wires based on the cable connected doesn't add an unprecedented level of complexity or sophistication. Speaking of thinking, indeed.
No, I don't think 2.0 will suffice, that's why I mentioned USB 3.0, the standard implementation of which uses 9-pins. However, with Apple doing a custom plug, I doubt their implementation will be standard. And I don't doubt their implementation will be sophisticated. I merely stated that you don't needs tons of "sophisticated" circuitry to do a reversible 8-pin (plus ground) connector.
1) So you think a reversible 8-pin plug for a 9-pin USB 3.0 standard is neither complex nor sophisticated? Really?
2) If you're talking 9 pins on the device that means there is 17 on the cable or 5 pins on the device which means 8 pins on the cable. That is both sophisticate and complex. Show me another non-cylindrial data cable that works the same way.
3) So lets consider your 8 pin design and then consider that USB 3.0 used 9 pins. Then lets consider the other pins that video out and audio line-out need, not to mention the other pins Apple has used and still uses in their dock connector for the accessories they have. Tell me how killing off the accessories market is your idea of thinking.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX
That's fucking stupid! Seriously! They've used the same connector style for nearly a decade and you're proposing as the only viable option a temporary stand in option that will completely kill the accessories market. A solution that will won't allow any video or audio line-out. It's a damn good thing you don't work for Apple.
Kill it? Or reboot it? After all, how many speaker docks do you need? But as more and more devices incorporate the new standard, it becomes more and more likely that someone will decide to replace their "obsolete" dock or speakers... resulting in more accessory sales, not less.
Audio line out? Ummm... well, I suspect we're (you're) in for a surprise there. You do know the new cables are chipped, right?
As for video out, yeah, it's as dead as the CD/DVD slot and the serial port. AirPlay over WiFi and low-powered Bluetooth 4.0 are the future.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX
1) So you think a reversible 8-pin plug for a 9-pin USB 3.0 standard is neither complex nor sophisticated? Really?
2) If you're talking 9 pins on the device that means there is 17 on the cable or 5 pins on the device which means 8 pins on the cable. That is both sophisticate and complex. Show me another non-cylindrial data cable that works the same way.
3) So lets consider your 8 pin design and then consider that USB 3.0 used 9 pins. Then lets consider the other pins that video out and audio line-out need, not to mention the other pins Apple has used and still uses in their dock connector for the accessories they have. Tell me how killing off the accessories market is your idea of thinking.
Sigh. I did say "8-pin (plus ground)" did I not? Have you not seen the... ah... proposed photos of the new connector?
http://www.ilounge.com/index.php/news/comments/alleged-photos-of-new-dock-connector-surface/
The metal plug is the ground and as such is, in itself, the "9th" pin.
And again, please try to read for comprehension. I said you don't needs tons of "sophisticated" circuitry just to do a reversible 8-pin (plus ground) connector. You implied that doing a reversible connector would add a ton of additional complexity.
You wrote "On an 8-pin connector". If you don't know that the ground is a pin simply because it's not inline with the other pins really means you're out of your depth in talking about port interface designs.
Yes, it needs to be sophisticated if you want the cable's interface to be 9 pins yet want it to be reversible and have all the important features of the current dock connector.
Usually you're 'spot on' but I think you're just 'nit picking' his post. His statement was largely true in conventional thought and I'm almost sure you know it.
There isn't enough material in these pictures to pinpoint anything definitive about... really anything. Let alone which device it my belong to or the means of grounding.
As an aside... I do still believe, after viewing several times, it looks like plastic.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX
You wrote "On an 8-pin connector". If you don't know that the ground is a pin simply because it's not inline with the other pins really means you're out of your depth in talking about port interface designs. Yes, it needs to be sophisticated if you want the cable's interface to be 9 pins yet want it to be reversible and have all the important features of the current dock connector.
Everyone else -- including you -- was hell bent on discussing the "8-pin" connector, I went along. (grin)
And I DON'T expect the new dock connector to have all of the same features as the current version. If Apple were going to make it exactly the same, why switch at all? The new dock connecter is for streaming data at high speed. No old-school audio-only lines. No old-school composite or component video out lines.
You want audio out or mic in? Use the phono plug. You want data and power, use the new plug. You want to keep your old speaker dock for a while? Use the dock/plug to 30-pin adaptor.
Like I said, Apple has been laying its audio/video groundwork for the future for a while now, and that future is AirPlay. This is a transition. Some things are going to be lost. Accept it, move on, or buy an Android phone.
I have to disagree with your thought here. The iDevice line owes at least a very small, if not larger, part of their success to the universal charger and adapter. I really think Apple held onto this as long as they could without holding themselves back. So far from everything I have studied they seem to be a long term company. They owe their success right now to their ability to slowly take over a market.
Before I get lambasted, I mean slowly like doubling pennies. Take one penny and double it every day.
BTW, a lot of people will probably cry about the "failings" of the new dock connector... right up to the point where they can sync and move data 10x faster.
I believe he just didn't like the "short term" reference. I could be wrong...