I have to disagree with your thought here. The iDevice line owes at least a very small, if not larger, part of their success to the universal charger and adapter. I really think Apple held onto this as long as they could without holding themselves back. So far from everything I have studied they seem to be a long term company. They owe their success right now to their ability to slowly take over a market.
Before I get lambasted, I mean slowly like doubling pennies. Take one penny and double it every day.
Well, there's two things operating here. One is that the existing dock connector has become, relatively speaking, huge. Apple loves to make things smaller and thinner. Big plugs (like we saw with EtherNet and FW on the new MBP) are in the way.
Second, USB 2.0 is slow, and their competition is going to move along to USB 3.0. As SolipsismX pointed out, Apple can't stay tied to USB 2.0 forever.
Apple is definitely a long term company. But "long term" also means planning for the future. Look at Serial, Parallel, ADB, FW400, VGA, FW800, EN, CD/DVD... Apple's not afraid of dropping old technology and moving forward.
I believe he just didn't like the "short term" reference. I could be wrong...
Well, think about it. Either Apple is going to transition to a new port, or they're not. If they do, there's going to be a transition period, so the question then becomes, how long?
I say 18 months or less. Long enough for pretty much the entire current base to transition to the next iPhone, or next year's, depending on their contract cycle.
Which in turn means that Apple has to only maintain the "adaptor" dock/plug configuration for this phone and the next, plus next years iPad, plus any new iPods, etc., that may come along. Which is pretty easy to do, since all of those designs are already in the pipe.
Well, think about it. Either Apple is going to transition to a new port, or they're not. If they do, there's going to be a transition period, so the question then becomes, how long?
I say 18 months or less. Long enough for pretty much the entire current base to transition to the next iPhone, or next year's, depending on their contract cycle.
Which in turn means that Apple has to only maintain the "adaptor" dock/plug configuration for this phone and the next, plus next years iPad, plus any new iPods, etc., that may come along. Which is pretty easy to do, since all of those designs are already in the pipe.
So. 18 months. That's "short term".
Ooooh! I understand your point I think. You're saying they would transition immediately, but offer an adapter for a short 'transition' period.
Yea... From reading your other posts it would be hard to extrapolate that thought. If that's your point, then I agree.
Edit: You did fail to mention "adapter" in your previous posts. Some people here get 'up-tight' if you're not specific. Sol is not usually one of them.
Ooooh! I understand your point I think. You're saying they would transition immediately, but offer an adapter for a short 'transition' period.
Yea... From reading your other posts it would be hard to extrapolate that thought. If that's your point, then I agree.
Well, yes and no. You still have to move all of the iDevices over to the new dock, and there's another transition period there. The new iPhone is first. I suspect most of the "fall" iPod line will make the leap. The 7" iPad. Then next spring for the new new 10" iPad to make the jump.
So by spring/summer of next year, all of the iDevices will have jumped. By the same time the following year, nearly all of the current user base will have jumped and everyone will be ready for newer, faster, more modern accessories.
Well, yes and no. You still have to move all of the iDevices over to the new dock, and there's another transition period there. The new iPhone is first. I suspect most of the "fall" iPod line will make the leap. The 7" iPad. Then next spring for the new new 10" iPad to make the jump.
So by spring/summer of next year, all of the iDevices will have jumped. By the same time the following year, nearly all of the current user base will have jumped and everyone will be ready for newer, faster, more modern accessories.
Yes. I 100% agree. If they introduce a new dock, the old one will get phased out further with each new generation of device, similar to their Mac lineup.
However, just because we think it could possibly happen that way doesn't mean that it will...
Anyway, cool chat!
I still think the part in that picture is not going to be in an iDevice... Again, I could clearly be wrong.
Ooooh! I understand your point I think. You're saying they would transition immediately, but offer an adapter for a short 'transition' period.
Yea... From reading your other posts it would be hard to extrapolate that thought. If that's your point, then I agree.
Edit: You did fail to mention "adapter" in your previous posts. Some people here get 'up-tight' if you're not specific. Sol is not usually one of them.
Well, again there are two things. Apple will switch to a new docking port for new and future iDevices. (8/9 pin) And Apple will provide a new dock/phono plug to 30-pin adaptor (similar to that shown above) so new iDevices with the new port can still be used with existing docks, speakers, and so on.
Everyone else -- including you -- was hell bent on discussing the "8-pin" connector, I went along. (grin)
And I DON'T expect the new dock connector to have all of the same features as the current version. If Apple were going to make it exactly the same, why switch at all? The new dock connecter is for streaming data at high speed. No old-school audio-only lines. No old-school composite or component video out lines.
You want audio out or mic in? Use the phono plug. You want data and power, use the new plug. You want to keep your old speaker dock for a while? Use the dock/plug to 30-pin adaptor.
Like I said, Apple has been laying its audio/video groundwork for the future for a while now, and that future is AirPlay. This is a transition. Some things are going to be lost. Accept it, move on, or buy an Android phone.
I've never discussed it as an 8 pin design. I've always qualified my comment to note it's a rumour and usually refer to it as 8 to 17 pins. I've even said that when excluding the FW pins, the unused pins for future growth, and the iPod Photo pins that 17 would still be very difficult and allow for no future growth. Now you want this to be reversible but make no consideration how the pins will be able to switch from the top bottom without affecting the device or how that could half the effective number of pins thus causing the device and/or cable to be more complex and sophisticated over a cable with 30 individual pins that are not reversible and are not used across different mechanisms. The very fact that you haven't considered any and therefore don't consider such an advanced setup as either sophisticated or complex compared to the current design is proof you are not comprehending what is involved with this process.
Edit: You did fail to mention "adapter" in your previous posts. Some people here get 'up-tight' if you're not specific. Sol is not usually one of them.
I always expect people to be specific in a specific discussion. Saying "that's what's I meant" when they clearly haven't thought about the issue at hand is not a valid excuse when you finally understand the finer points of the engineering.
The thought occurs to me that there is an ACTUAL cable pictured here that connects to the actual dock connector.
Wouldn't it be a simple matter of the people in possession of this cable to dissect it and determine if there are only 9 lines coming from the connector or 17?
I mean seriously, if it were reversible then there would only be 9 traces? Right? Why waste space duplicating the same wires on both sides and merging them at the soure, when merging them at the connector makes more sense.
Seems like that would be easy to spot. Anybody know how to get in touch with these guys?
The thought occurs to me that there is an ACTUAL cable pictured here that connects to the actual dock connector.
Wouldn't it be a simple matter of the people in possession of this cable to dissect it and determine if there are only 9 lines coming from the connector or 17?
I mean seriously, if it were reversible then there would only be 9 traces? Right? Why waste space duplicating the same wires on both sides and merging them at the soure, when merging them at the connector makes more sense.
Seems like that would be easy to spot. Anybody know how to get in touch with these guys?
The dock is single sided (8+plug = 9). I included a picture from the orig site earlier in this tread.
I've never discussed it as an 8 pin design. I've always qualified my comment to note it's a rumour and usually refer to it as 8 to 17 pins. I've even said that when excluding the FW pins, the unused pins for future growth, and the iPod Photo pins that 17 would still be very difficult and allow for no future growth. Now you want this to be reversible but make no consideration how the pins will be able to switch from the top bottom without affecting the device or how that could half the effective number of pins thus causing the device and/or cable to be more complex and sophisticated over a cable with 30 individual pins that are not reversible and are not used across different mechanisms. The very fact that you haven't considered any and therefore don't consider such an advanced setup as either sophisticated or complex compared to the current design is proof you are not comprehending what is involved with this process.
I say again my last. The "future" is wireless. The future is data only. That's where "future growth" comes from. And for high speed sync or otherwise, anything -- video, audio, you name it -- can be streamed via USB 3.0 as data. No analog anything.
And as to "no consideration", I say again what I've said above at least twice. It would be extremely simple to wrap the connector shell around what would be the equivalent of a double-sided circuit board, in which the "pin" traces run one way on one side and are flipped on the other. Contact is only made with one side, regardless of orientation. It's very elegant and the exact opposite of your original statement, "With data you're talking about a rumoured 8 to 17 pins that will require sophisticated and complex circuitry to make it reversible."
But hey, if you consider a double-sided PCB to be "sophisticated and complex circuitry", then I'm sorry you flunked EE.
So...
1) It will have 8 "pins" plus ground.
2) It will be USB 2.0/3.0 compatible.
3) It will be reversible.
4) And it will become ubiquitous.
I'm bookmarking the page, so you can skulk back here on the 12th and offer your apologies...
The dock is single sided (8+plug = 9). I included a picture from the orig site earlier in this tread.
I saw that picture but you can't tell anything about it. Are you saying the original site said it was single sided? Then why are we having a debate about it?
Because they're Apple? They'll make it reversible for the same reason they made MagSafe reversible. Because to do otherwise is to have millions of people fumbling first one way, then another trying to plug in their iPhone or iPad. Remember, most people use cables, not docks.
I think I have about 5 docking station devices - and at least 8 cables - and use them all on a regular basis - depending on where in the house or car I happen to be at any given time.
What I find to be really interesting is that the design is what USB3 should have been in the first place...
Oh boy, here we go. Down come swooping the USB 3 proponents…
I think Solipsism said it best… er… I can't remember what he said, so I can't say it as best he can. Oh! It was just earlier in this thread! Good:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX
1) So you think a reversible 8-pin plug for a 9-pin USB 3.0 standard is neither complex nor sophisticated? Really?
Indeed. What Apple does, provided they do it right, should be incredibly interesting.
But of course there's always the other option: they've dropped all video and data syncing (AirPlay and Air… what is it) in favor of just a charging port…
Oh boy, here we go. Down come swooping the USB 3 proponents…
I think Solipsism said it best… er… I can't remember what he said, so I can't say it as best he can. Oh! It was just earlier in this thread! Good:
Indeed. What Apple does, provided they do it right, should be incredibly interesting.
But of course there's always the other option: they've dropped all video and data syncing (AirPlay and Air… what is it) in favor of just a charging port…
As has been indicated several times, it appears that there are 8 "pins", plus the connector plug itself, for a total of 9.
And nope, it will still support high-speed data. Not everyone, just for one example, is signed up for iTunes match.
Comments
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vadania
I have to disagree with your thought here. The iDevice line owes at least a very small, if not larger, part of their success to the universal charger and adapter. I really think Apple held onto this as long as they could without holding themselves back. So far from everything I have studied they seem to be a long term company. They owe their success right now to their ability to slowly take over a market.
Before I get lambasted, I mean slowly like doubling pennies. Take one penny and double it every day.
Well, there's two things operating here. One is that the existing dock connector has become, relatively speaking, huge. Apple loves to make things smaller and thinner. Big plugs (like we saw with EtherNet and FW on the new MBP) are in the way.
Second, USB 2.0 is slow, and their competition is going to move along to USB 3.0. As SolipsismX pointed out, Apple can't stay tied to USB 2.0 forever.
Apple is definitely a long term company. But "long term" also means planning for the future. Look at Serial, Parallel, ADB, FW400, VGA, FW800, EN, CD/DVD... Apple's not afraid of dropping old technology and moving forward.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vadania
I believe he just didn't like the "short term" reference. I could be wrong...
Well, think about it. Either Apple is going to transition to a new port, or they're not. If they do, there's going to be a transition period, so the question then becomes, how long?
I say 18 months or less. Long enough for pretty much the entire current base to transition to the next iPhone, or next year's, depending on their contract cycle.
Which in turn means that Apple has to only maintain the "adaptor" dock/plug configuration for this phone and the next, plus next years iPad, plus any new iPods, etc., that may come along. Which is pretty easy to do, since all of those designs are already in the pipe.
So. 18 months. That's "short term".
Ooooh! I understand your point I think. You're saying they would transition immediately, but offer an adapter for a short 'transition' period.
Yea... From reading your other posts it would be hard to extrapolate that thought. If that's your point, then I agree.
Edit: You did fail to mention "adapter" in your previous posts. Some people here get 'up-tight' if you're not specific. Sol is not usually one of them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vadania
Ooooh! I understand your point I think. You're saying they would transition immediately, but offer an adapter for a short 'transition' period.
Yea... From reading your other posts it would be hard to extrapolate that thought. If that's your point, then I agree.
Well, yes and no. You still have to move all of the iDevices over to the new dock, and there's another transition period there. The new iPhone is first. I suspect most of the "fall" iPod line will make the leap. The 7" iPad. Then next spring for the new new 10" iPad to make the jump.
So by spring/summer of next year, all of the iDevices will have jumped. By the same time the following year, nearly all of the current user base will have jumped and everyone will be ready for newer, faster, more modern accessories.
Yes. I 100% agree. If they introduce a new dock, the old one will get phased out further with each new generation of device, similar to their Mac lineup.
However, just because we think it could possibly happen that way doesn't mean that it will...
Anyway, cool chat!
I still think the part in that picture is not going to be in an iDevice... Again, I could clearly be wrong.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vadania
Ooooh! I understand your point I think. You're saying they would transition immediately, but offer an adapter for a short 'transition' period.
Yea... From reading your other posts it would be hard to extrapolate that thought. If that's your point, then I agree.
Edit: You did fail to mention "adapter" in your previous posts. Some people here get 'up-tight' if you're not specific. Sol is not usually one of them.
Well, again there are two things. Apple will switch to a new docking port for new and future iDevices. (8/9 pin) And Apple will provide a new dock/phono plug to 30-pin adaptor (similar to that shown above) so new iDevices with the new port can still be used with existing docks, speakers, and so on.
Sorry if I wasn't clear.
I've never discussed it as an 8 pin design. I've always qualified my comment to note it's a rumour and usually refer to it as 8 to 17 pins. I've even said that when excluding the FW pins, the unused pins for future growth, and the iPod Photo pins that 17 would still be very difficult and allow for no future growth. Now you want this to be reversible but make no consideration how the pins will be able to switch from the top bottom without affecting the device or how that could half the effective number of pins thus causing the device and/or cable to be more complex and sophisticated over a cable with 30 individual pins that are not reversible and are not used across different mechanisms. The very fact that you haven't considered any and therefore don't consider such an advanced setup as either sophisticated or complex compared to the current design is proof you are not comprehending what is involved with this process.
I always expect people to be specific in a specific discussion. Saying "that's what's I meant" when they clearly haven't thought about the issue at hand is not a valid excuse when you finally understand the finer points of the engineering.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil
That (the iPhone jack) will bend to make it closer.
I thought the cable did not look like it was bent
Wouldn't it be a simple matter of the people in possession of this cable to dissect it and determine if there are only 9 lines coming from the connector or 17?
I mean seriously, if it were reversible then there would only be 9 traces? Right? Why waste space duplicating the same wires on both sides and merging them at the soure, when merging them at the connector makes more sense.
Seems like that would be easy to spot. Anybody know how to get in touch with these guys?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mac_128
The thought occurs to me that there is an ACTUAL cable pictured here that connects to the actual dock connector.
Wouldn't it be a simple matter of the people in possession of this cable to dissect it and determine if there are only 9 lines coming from the connector or 17?
I mean seriously, if it were reversible then there would only be 9 traces? Right? Why waste space duplicating the same wires on both sides and merging them at the soure, when merging them at the connector makes more sense.
Seems like that would be easy to spot. Anybody know how to get in touch with these guys?
The dock is single sided (8+plug = 9). I included a picture from the orig site earlier in this tread.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX
I've never discussed it as an 8 pin design. I've always qualified my comment to note it's a rumour and usually refer to it as 8 to 17 pins. I've even said that when excluding the FW pins, the unused pins for future growth, and the iPod Photo pins that 17 would still be very difficult and allow for no future growth. Now you want this to be reversible but make no consideration how the pins will be able to switch from the top bottom without affecting the device or how that could half the effective number of pins thus causing the device and/or cable to be more complex and sophisticated over a cable with 30 individual pins that are not reversible and are not used across different mechanisms. The very fact that you haven't considered any and therefore don't consider such an advanced setup as either sophisticated or complex compared to the current design is proof you are not comprehending what is involved with this process.
I say again my last. The "future" is wireless. The future is data only. That's where "future growth" comes from. And for high speed sync or otherwise, anything -- video, audio, you name it -- can be streamed via USB 3.0 as data. No analog anything.
And as to "no consideration", I say again what I've said above at least twice. It would be extremely simple to wrap the connector shell around what would be the equivalent of a double-sided circuit board, in which the "pin" traces run one way on one side and are flipped on the other. Contact is only made with one side, regardless of orientation. It's very elegant and the exact opposite of your original statement, "With data you're talking about a rumoured 8 to 17 pins that will require sophisticated and complex circuitry to make it reversible."
But hey, if you consider a double-sided PCB to be "sophisticated and complex circuitry", then I'm sorry you flunked EE.
So...
1) It will have 8 "pins" plus ground.
2) It will be USB 2.0/3.0 compatible.
3) It will be reversible.
4) And it will become ubiquitous.
I'm bookmarking the page, so you can skulk back here on the 12th and offer your apologies...
Originally Posted by ahmlco
4) And it will become ubiquitous.
Other than the fact that Apple won't let anyone use it.
I'm ignoring the rest because we can't actually know any of that at all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ahmlco
Because they're Apple? They'll make it reversible for the same reason they made MagSafe reversible. Because to do otherwise is to have millions of people fumbling first one way, then another trying to plug in their iPhone or iPad. Remember, most people use cables, not docks.
I think I have about 5 docking station devices - and at least 8 cables - and use them all on a regular basis - depending on where in the house or car I happen to be at any given time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil
Other than the fact that Apple won't let anyone use it.
I'm ignoring the rest because we can't actually know any of that at all.
As with the rest, you'll see on the 12th.
What I find to be really interesting is that the design is what USB3 should have been in the first place...
Originally Posted by ahmlco
As with the rest, you'll see on the 12th.
Do you claim to have inside knowledge?
What I find to be really interesting is that the design is what USB3 should have been in the first place...
Oh boy, here we go. Down come swooping the USB 3 proponents…
I think Solipsism said it best… er… I can't remember what he said, so I can't say it as best he can. Oh! It was just earlier in this thread! Good:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX
1) So you think a reversible 8-pin plug for a 9-pin USB 3.0 standard is neither complex nor sophisticated? Really?
Indeed. What Apple does, provided they do it right, should be incredibly interesting.
But of course there's always the other option: they've dropped all video and data syncing (AirPlay and Air… what is it) in favor of just a charging port…
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil
Do you claim to have inside knowledge?
Oh boy, here we go. Down come swooping the USB 3 proponents…
I think Solipsism said it best… er… I can't remember what he said, so I can't say it as best he can. Oh! It was just earlier in this thread! Good:
Indeed. What Apple does, provided they do it right, should be incredibly interesting.
But of course there's always the other option: they've dropped all video and data syncing (AirPlay and Air… what is it) in favor of just a charging port…
As has been indicated several times, it appears that there are 8 "pins", plus the connector plug itself, for a total of 9.
And nope, it will still support high-speed data. Not everyone, just for one example, is signed up for iTunes match.
Originally Posted by ahmlco
And nope, it will still support high-speed data.
I ask again,
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil
Do you claim to have inside knowledge?
I can't claim anything.