It has more value though. $300 for a portable computer is a good price and Apple's competitors make little to no profit margin.
AIOs have been experiencing double digit growth while the overall PC industry is declining or growing very slowly:
"the market for AIOs is growing fast—more than 20 percent in the first half of 2013, according to IDC, which makes it the fastest-growing desktop form factor in North America"
We will have to see how valid that research is. As it is right now I just don't see huge demand for all in ones. If it was that hot of a product i'd be seeing them in stores and regularly promoted in sales fliers and such.
They don't make up a majority of the desktop sales but towers are on the way down and AIOs on the way up. The only issue I've ever had with AIOs is locking the storage inside, especially with HDDs. If they move the storage outside and solder the RAM on, it's no problem at all.
I have no doubt Tower sales are on the way down, that has been the trend in industry for years now.
It's more cost-effective for the buyer because they aren't paying margins to multiple manufacturers:
In the case of Apples products you have all of the margins going to one vendor. The consumer doesn't always win here. Further all in ones simply aren't good long term values that can be expensive to repair. It would be interesting to see a little research on this, but maybe i'm odd considering the length of time I keep computing hardware.
It's more profitable for the manufacturer as they are able to sell more of their own product to the buyer. It's probably easier to support too.
There is no doubt that support for the manufacture is easy. However for the consumer support, especially repairs are excessively expensive unless you are a strong DIY type person.
That consumer need doesn't exist in high demand. People keep saying Apple needs to focus on the Mini but as I said, the iMac is 4x more profitable for them so they don't rely on the Mini at all. It will never drive their desktop business.
Neither does the Mac Pro but realistically they have to have an offering for that market to retina any sort of credibility. If they drop a reasonably priced desktop Mac from the line up they might as well punt and get rid of the iMac too. As a vendor you are expected to cover a range of customers needs.
I hate to use auto manufacturing as an example but since these are desktops we might as well compare them to trucks. Ford could easily say that a one ton pickup (Mac Pro) is good enough for everybody. However that is likely to push customers away that have lighter duty needs (Mini).
They've done a great job with it up until now but consumers simply haven't been buying it as much as the iMac and this would still be the case if they updated it.
Well no, that isn't the case at all. I'm not about to buy the machine without an update and I suspect that is the feeling of a lot of Mini customers. The other big frustration here is that the machine really needs a performance boost in the same vain as the Mac Book Airs, that is put one of those blade SSD's in the machine and give it the capability to run higher wattage processors.
It is a machine hooked to a TV, how would anything suggested impact the sales of other iOS devices. If anything it would increase sales.
It would likely have to be at least $199 <span style="line-height:1.4em;">for 16GB and no better than an A5</span>
($30 cheaper than an equivalent iPod touch) <span style="line-height:1.4em;">and probably $349 for an A7 ($50 less than the retina iPad).</span>
I'm certain Apple would charge more for a machine as described. However the flip side here is that every component in an Apple TV is cheeper today than when it was first introduced.
The business model is relatively inexpensive apps for expensive hardware. The profits aren't nearly as good for app sales to want to switch business models.
There is certainly a different business model here but as I said it isn't hugely different than what is happening right now with AppleTV. That is my point, the concept is more or less an extension of what Apple already does with AppleTV.
It is a machine hooked to a TV, how would anything suggested impact the sales of other iOS devices. If anything it would increase sales.
My kid only plays games on iOS. Connected to a TV is better now there are usable controllers and more game support for controllers. There's less of a need to buy an iPad for him.
Quote:
There is certainly a different business model here but as I said it isn't hugely different than what is happening right now with AppleTV. That is my point, the concept is more or less an extension of what Apple already does with AppleTV.
Except the AppleTV isn't a very significant moneymaker in comparison to other hardware. It's still treated more as an accessory for iOS devices than its own platform.
I hear this all the time and frankly each time I hear it all I think is that this is bull shit. Seriously I have zero desire right now for an iMac.
That you don't want an iMac is not important. For Apple the primary concern is to maintain margins AND ASP. The $1100 iMac is a better sale for them than an $800 mini. Especially since the CPU is cheaper and the display+KB+mouse isn't $300.
Say that you wanted a quad-i7 and 8GB RAM in the Mini, this would be $799 + $80 for the RAM. SSD is the way forward for all machines so you'd get 256GB for $110. This total comes to $989. The MBP is just $670 more.
For that $670, you get a portable machine with a Retina IPS display and you get a powerful dedicated GPU and your resale value is higher. To get the faster PCIe storage, TB2, 802.11ac wifi, it's just another $40. It has Iris Pro, which is close to the 650M:
If you want to leave it in clamshell and hook it to a display, that's ok or just use it as a second display. The laptops will be getting updated soon so the refurb prices might drop further.
I was pretty much going to just build a CustoMac Mini Deluxe from the tonymacx86 site:
Amazon pricing
$130 Motherboard
$320 Core i7-4770K
$180 16GB RAM
$135 256GB SSD
$85 550W PSU
$110 Case
$90 GT640
$50 misc stuff (cables, heat sink compound, etc)
$1100
Losing TB is a shame but the Gigabyte Z87 ATX has TB for $202 but I don't know if it's supported in OSX.
Is this just for budget considerations? I’ve read the GTX 670 (or was it 760… pretty sure it’s 760) is the best bang for your buck right now…
There are now tweakers who are flashing their 670, 680 and 690's into Quadro cards and it seems to work, though you don't get the benefit of ECC memory. Who cares though. still very cool.
Drop the discreet GPU and you come closer to the price of a Mini. I think your prices highlight though the futility of building your own for a cost savings. It is great fun having built a few Linux machines in my time, but even back in the day it wasn't a huge savings in the final cash laid out.
Losing TB is a shame but the Gigabyte Z87 ATX has TB for $202 but I don't know if it's supported in OSX.
Don't forget shipping! If you can't get free shipping you can easily blow out the cost of the hardware.
Also loosing TB May or May not be a problem depending upon how things develop in the next year or two. Personally I'd want it there, especially TB 2. In something like the Mini TB2, is a huge advantage.
Losing TB is a shame but the Gigabyte Z87 ATX has TB for $202 but I don't know if it's supported in OSX.
That seems like a lot of hassle to put that kind of box together. It's not that small either:
[VIDEO]
You would be saving ~$600 vs the rMBP but the spec isn't much higher and the laptop is zero hassle, it's portable and fully compatible with OS X. Like I say, the price difference is largely negligible when you factor in resale value, especially on a custom PC. When the 2014 rMBPs arrive, the early 2013 refurbs might even get a further $100 knocked off.
Drop the discreet GPU and you come closer to the price of a Mini. I think your prices highlight though the futility of building your own for a cost savings. It is great fun having built a few Linux machines in my time, but even back in the day it wasn't a huge savings in the final cash laid out.
I need a windows box anyway and I have a i7 rMBP so it's not for saving money really. Still it should be more powerful than the entry level iMac for around the same cost.
Quote:
One thing to look out for is that the smaller SSDs can see a huge performance difference between them and something like a 512 GB drive.
Don't forget shipping! If you can't get free shipping you can easily blow out the cost of the hardware.
Yah, the 512s are faster but even then that's not really enough space so I'll have to still rely on HDDs.
I priced Amazon because I think most of those parts are part of Prime.
Quote:
Also loosing TB May or May not be a problem depending upon how things develop in the next year or two. Personally I'd want it there, especially TB 2. In something like the Mini TB2, is a huge advantage.
The case is rather large and has room for a couple more drives. I'm not sure what other TB devices I would own in the near future.
That seems like a lot of hassle to put that kind of box together. It's not that small either:
It's a desktop. It needs to be small why? I like Relic's case better since it is pretty so I can understand if you want to say the case is boring or ugly. But small isn't a requirement.
As far hassle goes, its more annoying to break into a mini and worry about breaking tabs much less an iMac.
Quiet could be a requirement. Opting for quieter parts would increase the cost some.
Quote:
You would be saving ~$600 vs the rMBP but the spec isn't much higher and the laptop is zero hassle, it's portable and fully compatible with OS X. Like I say, the price difference is largely negligible when you factor in resale value, especially on a custom PC. When the 2014 rMBPs arrive, the early 2013 refurbs might even get a further $100 knocked off.
I dunno that I've ever sold any or my macs. I hand them down. My kids have a core duo mini that will get retired but the resale value of that must be pretty negligible. Somewhere in my basement is an old Quicksilver that by the time I retired it was pretty much worthless as well.
As for the specs...it's comparable because I chimped out on the GPU. The 760 is $150 more. I have the $2600 Late 2013 2.3 GHz rMBP with the 750M. A $1300 build with the GTX760 and 3.5 Ghz 4770K should be much faster than my almost top end rMBP.
More importantly it has 16GB RAM...which the two refurbs don't. Right now with just Eclipse, Outlook and Safari running my activity monitor shows 9.9GB used. Now a big chunk of that is file cache but I don't have VMWare Fusion running or any other of my memory hungry apps running. I guess if I was reselling I wouldn't care so much but RAM is just one of those things that contribute to extended snappy longevity.
Wow that is one ugly case, I personally only use cases from InWin particularly the H-Frame series.
Yep, sure is ugly. Yes, I would probably spring for the H-Frame although the low profile card slot limits some GPU options. Alas the red is $20 more than the green.
Quote:
The 4770K has a CPU benchmark of 10304 and the 4770s is 9581, but it's the difference in wattage that I really care about.
How quiet is your build?
Quote:
So if you're going to do a Frankintosh, make it cool looking.
So if you're going to do a Frankintosh, make it cool looking.
Okay, I love that word. Unfortunately, it seems like it wouldn’t apply, would it? Hackintosh for something hobbled together from other parts and Frankentosh for a proper Mac with non-standard hardware…
Or maybe not. After all, OS X is the “brain” and all the other components of the body came from elsewhere.
Near silent except for the GPU but I plan on removing the fan and replacing it with a passive cooled solution. Though it's not priority as you have to put your ear up to the case to really hear it. GPU performance wasn't my main goal for this machine, the Quadro is more then enough power for me, especially when compared to any of the embedded solutions found in similar sized computers. I've always had at least one machine that I built myself to guarantee complete openness and compatibility with whatever OS's that I want to play with. Well that and I like to tinker, the H-Frame series of cases are absolutely fantastic, their all aluminum design and open design not only allows for better cooling but look amazing.
Okay, I love that word. Unfortunately, it seems like it wouldn’t apply, would it? Hackintosh for something hobbled together from other parts and Frankentosh for a proper Mac with non-standard hardware…
Or maybe not. After all, OS X is the “brain” and all the other components of the body came from elsewhere.
They actually work surprisingly well when done correctly but their defiantly not a replacement for the real thing. It's nothing but a hobby solution and I would in no way suggest someone making one to be used as a production machine. Home use and if gaming is your thing, sure why not.
I have the $2600 Late 2013 2.3 GHz rMBP with the 750M. A $1300 build with the GTX760 and 3.5 Ghz 4770K should be much faster than my almost top end rMBP.
The i7-4770k gets 769 in Cinebench 15, the rMBP gets 601. The CPU would be 28% faster. Negligible in real-world scenarios.
The 760 would be over 100% faster than the 650M/750M though.
More importantly it has 16GB RAM...which the two refurbs don't. Right now with just Eclipse, Outlook and Safari running my activity monitor shows 9.9GB used. Now a big chunk of that is file cache but I don't have VMWare Fusion running or any other of my memory hungry apps running. I guess if I was reselling I wouldn't care so much but RAM is just one of those things that contribute to extended snappy longevity.
Given that you have a high-end rMBP, why bother with the desktop? You aren't gaining that much performance except for the GPU.
Comments
I hate to use auto manufacturing as an example but since these are desktops we might as well compare them to trucks. Ford could easily say that a one ton pickup (Mac Pro) is good enough for everybody. However that is likely to push customers away that have lighter duty needs (Mini). Well no, that isn't the case at all. I'm not about to buy the machine without an update and I suspect that is the feeling of a lot of Mini customers. The other big frustration here is that the machine really needs a performance boost in the same vain as the Mac Book Airs, that is put one of those blade SSD's in the machine and give it the capability to run higher wattage processors.
I hear this all the time and frankly each time I hear it all I think is that this is bull shit. Seriously I have zero desire right now for an iMac.
There is certainly a different business model here but as I said it isn't hugely different than what is happening right now with AppleTV. That is my point, the concept is more or less an extension of what Apple already does with AppleTV.
It is a machine hooked to a TV, how would anything suggested impact the sales of other iOS devices. If anything it would increase sales.
My kid only plays games on iOS. Connected to a TV is better now there are usable controllers and more game support for controllers. There's less of a need to buy an iPad for him.
Except the AppleTV isn't a very significant moneymaker in comparison to other hardware. It's still treated more as an accessory for iOS devices than its own platform.
I hear this all the time and frankly each time I hear it all I think is that this is bull shit. Seriously I have zero desire right now for an iMac.
That you don't want an iMac is not important. For Apple the primary concern is to maintain margins AND ASP. The $1100 iMac is a better sale for them than an $800 mini. Especially since the CPU is cheaper and the display+KB+mouse isn't $300.
I don't think there's much point holding out for an iMac as the cheapest quad-i7 model is $1699 and that has a HDD glued inside it.
IMO, everyone holding out for a decent Mini with a good GPU should just get one of these:
http://store.apple.com/us/product/FE664LL/A/refurbished-154-inch-macBook-Pro-24ghz-Quad-core-Intel-i7-with-retina-Display
Say that you wanted a quad-i7 and 8GB RAM in the Mini, this would be $799 + $80 for the RAM. SSD is the way forward for all machines so you'd get 256GB for $110. This total comes to $989. The MBP is just $670 more.
For that $670, you get a portable machine with a Retina IPS display and you get a powerful dedicated GPU and your resale value is higher. To get the faster PCIe storage, TB2, 802.11ac wifi, it's just another $40. It has Iris Pro, which is close to the 650M:
http://store.apple.com/us/product/FE293LL/A/refurbished-154-inch-macbook-pro-20ghz-quad-core-intel-i7-with-retina-display
If you want to leave it in clamshell and hook it to a display, that's ok or just use it as a second display. The laptops will be getting updated soon so the refurb prices might drop further.
I was pretty much going to just build a CustoMac Mini Deluxe from the tonymacx86 site:
Amazon pricing
$130 Motherboard
$320 Core i7-4770K
$180 16GB RAM
$135 256GB SSD
$85 550W PSU
$110 Case
$90 GT640
$50 misc stuff (cables, heat sink compound, etc)
$1100
Losing TB is a shame but the Gigabyte Z87 ATX has TB for $202 but I don't know if it's supported in OSX.
$90 GT640
Is this just for budget considerations? I’ve read the GTX 670 (or was it 760… pretty sure it’s 760) is the best bang for your buck right now…
Is this just for budget considerations? I’ve read the GTX 670 (or was it 760… pretty sure it’s 760) is the best bang for your buck right now…
There are now tweakers who are flashing their 670, 680 and 690's into Quadro cards and it seems to work, though you don't get the benefit of ECC memory. Who cares though. still very cool.
One thing to look out for is that the smaller SSDs can see a huge performance difference between them and something like a 512 GB drive.
Don't forget shipping! If you can't get free shipping you can easily blow out the cost of the hardware.
Also loosing TB May or May not be a problem depending upon how things develop in the next year or two. Personally I'd want it there, especially TB 2. In something like the Mini TB2, is a huge advantage.
That seems like a lot of hassle to put that kind of box together. It's not that small either:
[VIDEO]
You would be saving ~$600 vs the rMBP but the spec isn't much higher and the laptop is zero hassle, it's portable and fully compatible with OS X. Like I say, the price difference is largely negligible when you factor in resale value, especially on a custom PC. When the 2014 rMBPs arrive, the early 2013 refurbs might even get a further $100 knocked off.
[IMG]http://cdn.eteknix.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/1373953745_three_color_3.png[/IMG]
[B]My Build[/B]
[URL=http://www.sotechdesign.com.au/in-win-h-frame-mini-itx-chassis-review/]In Win H-Frame Mini (Green) (180 WATT)[/URL]
EVGA Z97 Stinger Core 3D LGA 1150 Mini-ITX 2 DIMM Dual-Channel DDR3 2666MHz+
Intel Core i7-4770S Quad-Core Desktop Processor 3.1 GHZ 8 MB (64 WATT)
Corsair Vengeance Pro Series 16GB (2 x 8GB) DDR3 2666MHz
Crucial M500 480GB SATA 2.5-inch
PNY Nvidia Quadro K2000 Low Profile Kepler Graphics Card (40 WATT) (Yes this card runs just fine with OSX)
Price: $1,264.31
A Little more money, but looks a lot better and runs cooler.
The 4770K has a CPU benchmark of 10304 and the 4770s is 9581, but it's the difference in wattage that I really care about.
So if you're going to do a Frankintosh, make it cool looking.
Is this just for budget considerations? I’ve read the GTX 670 (or was it 760… pretty sure it’s 760) is the best bang for your buck right now…
Yah, I was being cheap. The 760 is like 4 times as fast or something which is a great deal for being only around 2 times as expensive.
Drop the discreet GPU and you come closer to the price of a Mini. I think your prices highlight though the futility of building your own for a cost savings. It is great fun having built a few Linux machines in my time, but even back in the day it wasn't a huge savings in the final cash laid out.
I need a windows box anyway and I have a i7 rMBP so it's not for saving money really. Still it should be more powerful than the entry level iMac for around the same cost.
Don't forget shipping! If you can't get free shipping you can easily blow out the cost of the hardware.
Yah, the 512s are faster but even then that's not really enough space so I'll have to still rely on HDDs.
I priced Amazon because I think most of those parts are part of Prime.
The case is rather large and has room for a couple more drives. I'm not sure what other TB devices I would own in the near future.
That seems like a lot of hassle to put that kind of box together. It's not that small either:
It's a desktop. It needs to be small why? I like Relic's case better since it is pretty so I can understand if you want to say the case is boring or ugly. But small isn't a requirement.
As far hassle goes, its more annoying to break into a mini and worry about breaking tabs much less an iMac.
Quiet could be a requirement. Opting for quieter parts would increase the cost some.
I dunno that I've ever sold any or my macs. I hand them down. My kids have a core duo mini that will get retired but the resale value of that must be pretty negligible. Somewhere in my basement is an old Quicksilver that by the time I retired it was pretty much worthless as well.
As for the specs...it's comparable because I chimped out on the GPU. The 760 is $150 more. I have the $2600 Late 2013 2.3 GHz rMBP with the 750M. A $1300 build with the GTX760 and 3.5 Ghz 4770K should be much faster than my almost top end rMBP.
More importantly it has 16GB RAM...which the two refurbs don't. Right now with just Eclipse, Outlook and Safari running my activity monitor shows 9.9GB used. Now a big chunk of that is file cache but I don't have VMWare Fusion running or any other of my memory hungry apps running. I guess if I was reselling I wouldn't care so much but RAM is just one of those things that contribute to extended snappy longevity.
Wow that is one ugly case, I personally only use cases from InWin particularly the H-Frame series.
Yep, sure is ugly. Yes, I would probably spring for the H-Frame although the low profile card slot limits some GPU options. Alas the red is $20 more than the green.
How quiet is your build?
Absolutely.
Okay, I love that word. Unfortunately, it seems like it wouldn’t apply, would it? Hackintosh for something hobbled together from other parts and Frankentosh for a proper Mac with non-standard hardware…
Or maybe not. After all, OS X is the “brain” and all the other components of the body came from elsewhere.
Near silent except for the GPU but I plan on removing the fan and replacing it with a passive cooled solution. Though it's not priority as you have to put your ear up to the case to really hear it. GPU performance wasn't my main goal for this machine, the Quadro is more then enough power for me, especially when compared to any of the embedded solutions found in similar sized computers. I've always had at least one machine that I built myself to guarantee complete openness and compatibility with whatever OS's that I want to play with. Well that and I like to tinker, the H-Frame series of cases are absolutely fantastic, their all aluminum design and open design not only allows for better cooling but look amazing.
They actually work surprisingly well when done correctly but their defiantly not a replacement for the real thing. It's nothing but a hobby solution and I would in no way suggest someone making one to be used as a production machine. Home use and if gaming is your thing, sure why not.
All that work, and then after the P.O.S.T. ...Windows!
The i7-4770k gets 769 in Cinebench 15, the rMBP gets 601. The CPU would be 28% faster. Negligible in real-world scenarios.
The 760 would be over 100% faster than the 650M/750M though.
Given that you have a high-end rMBP, why bother with the desktop? You aren't gaining that much performance except for the GPU.