How do you feel about an ARM based Mini? It is becoming fairly clear that Apples ARM chips are highly capable and that Cyclone has far more potential than can be demonstrated in a cell phone. Given that Apple will likely have an A8 out this year with even better performance, it makes the idea plausible.
The latest rumor from France says that an ARM-based mini already exists as prototype. According to the source, the new mini would sport a 4- or 8-core processor with 128 GB of flash storage. It runs an ARM version of Yosemite and it has soldered RAM. The release is predicted to be soon, or very soon (whatever this may mean).
Let's say that it is true. What about the compatibility with the established software base? If the ARM processors could beat the Intel CPUs in performance, then this would make sense through an emulation environment a la Rosetta. But they cannot.
Can't imagine myself seeing Adobe and all doing an ARM version of their suite, that would be a much larger conversion than going from PPC to Intel because they already had an Intel version. Don't know much about programming, but I think there ought to be an in-depth article about it. [@]Corrections[/@], DED, are you up to it, or preparing for next Tuesday?
I am still holding out for a refreshed mini this year. Hopefully the October release of Yosemite, that will undoubtedly be bolstered by a new 12" Retina MacBook, and a refreshed iMac (if not 4K), will also see a modest update to the mini.
I have no issues with its form, available ports, or footprint.
I just want a Haswell processor, with Quad Core options, 32 GB of RAM support, and Intel Iris Pro graphics.
The latest rumor from France says that an ARM-based mini already exists as prototype. According to the source, the new mini would sport a 4- or 8-core processor with 128 GB of flash storage. It runs an ARM version of Yosemite and it has soldered RAM. The release is predicted to be soon, or very soon (whatever this may mean).
Of course it does. It’s not going to be released, but of course it exists. Just like the Intel Macs that ran 10.2.
An ARM Mac Mini would have the benefit of being able to shave a couple hundred off its price. If Apple can get an ARM Mac Mini to run the most common applications, NO ONE will have an excuse not to buy a Mac. Not the idiots who buy $200 PCs, not the morons who buy $400 PCs; no one.
Can't imagine myself seeing Adobe and all doing an ARM version of their suite, that would be a much larger conversion than going from PPC to Intel because they already had an Intel version. Don't know much about programming, but I think there ought to be an in-depth article about it. [@]Corrections[/@], DED, are you up to it, or preparing for next Tuesday?
Apple has already laid the foundations for such a move by deprecating legacy APIs. I don't think a port to ARM would need as much work from Adobe. There is some dependence on Java to be considered as well as plugins but if they could get 4 or 8 quad-cores (totalling 16 or 32 cores) in at price points where a single dual or quad-core from Intel is available, it might be worth doing. It's definitely worth experimenting with. ARM doesn't beat Intel much on performance-per-watt these days but hugely on performance-per-dollar.
For Windows compatibility, it would work with Windows RT but the other Windows would need emulation. The Russian company that made the x86 emulator on ARM released an Android emulator:
Some games work but anything less than 100% compatibility is going to put people off as that's what Bootcamp offered. They note emulated CPU performance at 85% native so running on so many cores, the performance would be indistinguishable from native. OS X binary translation would likely be fully compatible too while software transitioned over.
They've done it before and pulled it off extremely well, it would actually go much smoother this time because of the level of performance computers have now and the maturity of the developer kits. I don't think it would please everyone though and I'm sure a significant amount of people would value the compatibility over the added performance that isn't being used much anyway. If the prices drop significantly as a result, that helps drive Apple's unit volumes but I wouldn't expect as much as 25% off and that's still expensive relative to PCs.
There's still Thunderbolt compatibility to think about too and GPU performance.
I'm surprised they haven't engineered the mini down to the size of the AppleTV yet.
If they switch to a passively cooled design, they can take out the big fan in the mini and if they switch to PCIe storage exclusively, they can remove the hard drives. That would shrink it significantly. There's not much reward for putting the effort into redesigning the mini that way though.
How many out there think that the new Mini might actually be debuted at the September 9 th event? Some of us have come close to giving up hope but what if there has been a major refactoring of the Mini to better support the new initiatives?
Frankly I'm not sure how the new initiatives would meld into a Mini. However the irrational delay in a new Mini release has me thinking a refocused device, maybe along the lines of the digital hub concept. Of course Apple could do some of this with an IOS device.
A quiet Haswell update as everything else gets updated on the store seems more likely. Maybe they will have a home server but it seems not appleish.
Plenty of opportunity to do a digital hub with a Time Capsule like device. A Time Capsule updated to aTV specs would likely handle the load.
The latest rumor from France says that an ARM-based mini already exists as prototype. According to the source, the new mini would sport a 4- or 8-core processor with 128 GB of flash storage. It runs an ARM version of Yosemite and it has soldered RAM. The release is predicted to be soon, or very soon (whatever this may mean).
Interesting rumor. I would need an upgrade from 128GB of flash storage and of course 8+ GB of RAM. I wouldn't expect Apple to deliver such a machine without decent performance out of the processor. Considering that A7 is barely breaking a sweat this performance issue wouldn't likely be a problem with an A8 variant.
I use the term "variant" carefully here as you wouldn't put the same processor in this machine that you put into a cell phone.
Let's say that it is true. What about the compatibility with the established software base?
I see this brought up all the time and frankly I don't care. The reality is this, if the platform supports Apples apps, including XCode, I have the vast majority of my needs covered. Ideally Java support would be there. As to the rest of the world I think Apple will give develoeprs lots of incentive to compile their apps for ARM. Any lack of apps would be very short term.
If the ARM processors could beat the Intel CPUs in performance, then this would make sense through an emulation environment a la Rosetta. But they cannot.
Nobody these days would want anything to do with an emulation environment! There are simply more viable options for developers. As for Windows I miss that support less and less everyday. Honestly I don't know why this nonsense about an emulation environment keeps coming up, it is the most minor of problems for an ARM based Mini. The majority of users have a minimal number of apps installed. A common complaint is that there will be a lack of games but honestly who in their right mind buys a Mini to game?
There are some interesting comments to be had with that article! However I think the majority of people don't realize just how good A7 is and how easy it would be to scale its performance in an A8 variant.
Most of the negativity seems to come from people that need to run Windows. The obvious answer then is that the machine isn't for you. However for the overwhelming majority of users ARM would make no difference.
Can't imagine myself seeing Adobe and all doing an ARM version of their suite, that would be a much larger conversion than going from PPC to Intel because they already had an Intel version.
Recompile will be the answer for many developers. Adobe may have a harder time but that is probably more due to processor specific code than anything.
Don't know much about programming, but I think there ought to be an in-depth article about it. [@]Corrections[/@], DED, are you up to it, or preparing for next Tuesday?
You can write (read) all the articles you want but the reality is that in most cases it doesn't matter. The vast majority of apps are written in high level languages that will allow quick porting to ARM. In some cases nothing more than a recompile is required. It isn't much different than the transistion from 32 bit ARM to 64 bit ARM. Even the stuff that ADOBE might have done at a low level in the past is better done these days with OpenCL and the like.
Given that stuff like ADOBEs suites are at best niche products when running on a Mini. The Mini has never been a high performance machine.
Beyond all of that why would Apple completely abandon i86? They could support i86 for another decade or more without problem. I86 then becomes the high end platforms with ARM giving Apple leverage in the low end where it currently has no play. With some advance design work Apple could easily shave $300 pof the cost of the Mini if it wanted too. That is a big savings for a Mini like machine.
I'd actually like to see a machine that brings back everything in the keyboard approach that was common in the early years of personal computing.
You guys are so jaded that the retina mini release was a "disappointment".
I'm rolling my eyes so hard they're going to pop out of my head if I don't stop.
I said iPad, which in my case always means what is now called the iPad Air. To be honest disappointment is a bit of an understatement as I was expecting a flash upgrade at the very least. Seriously have you looked at the price of flash recently? Apple has been milking the high upgrade costs for far too long. We are talking a few dollars of flash to go from 16GB to 32 and like wise from 32 to 64GB. THE UPGRADE PRICES MIGHT HAVE BEEN REASONABLE 3 years ago but no more.
The last major product Apple ignored for this long was the Mac Pro, which was also 5h!tcanned.
Whatever comes next will be smaller, quieter, and utterly non-upgradable, while being more expensive and continuing the tradition of performance just shy of what is needed for serious computing. After all, that is the point of the Mini, to bait and switch. Draw suckers into the Apple Store to buy a Mini, then talk 'em into throwing out their current monitor and buying an iMac. For Windows switchers, it's a sort of OS X demo machine. Try out OS X, find out it rocks but needs a little more power, and hey look there's that iMac I don't need the monitor but oh well it runs OS X and it's fast.
Apple's consumer desktop lineup is backwards. The AIO should be the low end granny machine, with the high end slots filled by a servicable, upgradable Minitower comprised of high performance, lower cost desktop components. It's a desktop, so it doesn't matter if it's thin. In fact, I don't want it to be thin. I want it big and tall and badass. Fu[k that, I want Ive to make a giant aluminium phallus to sit on my desk and intimidate Windows users.
I want Ive to make a giant aluminium phallus to sit on my desk and intimidate Windows users.
Isn't that your job? The Windows market doesn't respect size any more, it's all about value. Apple can make any size they want but if it doesn't compete on price, it won't hit the high volume market. There's no profit to be made in making the cheapest product in a lineup the most compelling either.
Err I think the guy you are responding to, means that something completely new is coming. I actually thinks there is a good possibility here. There are a number of options ID like to see. One would be a keyboard with a computer built in. The other is a scaled down Mac Pro designed with a nod to the old Crays.
The computer in a keyboard would be so damn convienent that I would jump on a couple right away. The Min Cray is because of my whimsical nature, priced right I could buy a couple of those too.
Comments
100% I agree with you. Like the watch to me is a big waste of time for $400.A suckers paradise you have with most Apple people.
How do you feel about an ARM based Mini? It is becoming fairly clear that Apples ARM chips are highly capable and that Cyclone has far more potential than can be demonstrated in a cell phone. Given that Apple will likely have an A8 out this year with even better performance, it makes the idea plausible.
The latest rumor from France says that an ARM-based mini already exists as prototype. According to the source, the new mini would sport a 4- or 8-core processor with 128 GB of flash storage. It runs an ARM version of Yosemite and it has soldered RAM. The release is predicted to be soon, or very soon (whatever this may mean).
Let's say that it is true. What about the compatibility with the established software base? If the ARM processors could beat the Intel CPUs in performance, then this would make sense through an emulation environment a la Rosetta. But they cannot.
Thanks for that link. I myself read the English version over at 9to5 oh, frick, URL adjustment needed:
http://9to5mac.com/2014/05/25/rumor-apple-working-on-arm-based-mac-variants-with-larger-trackpad-built-into-keyboard/#more-324713
Can't imagine myself seeing Adobe and all doing an ARM version of their suite, that would be a much larger conversion than going from PPC to Intel because they already had an Intel version. Don't know much about programming, but I think there ought to be an in-depth article about it. [@]Corrections[/@], DED, are you up to it, or preparing for next Tuesday?
I'm surprised they haven't engineered the mini down to the size of the AppleTV yet.
I am still holding out for a refreshed mini this year. Hopefully the October release of Yosemite, that will undoubtedly be bolstered by a new 12" Retina MacBook, and a refreshed iMac (if not 4K), will also see a modest update to the mini.
I have no issues with its form, available ports, or footprint.
I just want a Haswell processor, with Quad Core options, 32 GB of RAM support, and Intel Iris Pro graphics.
Of course it does. It’s not going to be released, but of course it exists. Just like the Intel Macs that ran 10.2.
An ARM Mac Mini would have the benefit of being able to shave a couple hundred off its price. If Apple can get an ARM Mac Mini to run the most common applications, NO ONE will have an excuse not to buy a Mac. Not the idiots who buy $200 PCs, not the morons who buy $400 PCs; no one.
Apple has already laid the foundations for such a move by deprecating legacy APIs. I don't think a port to ARM would need as much work from Adobe. There is some dependence on Java to be considered as well as plugins but if they could get 4 or 8 quad-cores (totalling 16 or 32 cores) in at price points where a single dual or quad-core from Intel is available, it might be worth doing. It's definitely worth experimenting with. ARM doesn't beat Intel much on performance-per-watt these days but hugely on performance-per-dollar.
For Windows compatibility, it would work with Windows RT but the other Windows would need emulation. The Russian company that made the x86 emulator on ARM released an Android emulator:
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.eltechs.es
http://eltechs.com/product/exagear-desktop/
Some games work but anything less than 100% compatibility is going to put people off as that's what Bootcamp offered. They note emulated CPU performance at 85% native so running on so many cores, the performance would be indistinguishable from native. OS X binary translation would likely be fully compatible too while software transitioned over.
They've done it before and pulled it off extremely well, it would actually go much smoother this time because of the level of performance computers have now and the maturity of the developer kits. I don't think it would please everyone though and I'm sure a significant amount of people would value the compatibility over the added performance that isn't being used much anyway. If the prices drop significantly as a result, that helps drive Apple's unit volumes but I wouldn't expect as much as 25% off and that's still expensive relative to PCs.
There's still Thunderbolt compatibility to think about too and GPU performance.
If they switch to a passively cooled design, they can take out the big fan in the mini and if they switch to PCIe storage exclusively, they can remove the hard drives. That would shrink it significantly. There's not much reward for putting the effort into redesigning the mini that way though.
Yes I dug up this old thread!
How many out there think that the new Mini might actually be debuted at the September 9 th event? Some of us have come close to giving up hope but what if there has been a major refactoring of the Mini to better support the new initiatives?
Frankly I'm not sure how the new initiatives would meld into a Mini. However the irrational delay in a new Mini release has me thinking a refocused device, maybe along the lines of the digital hub concept. Of course Apple could do some of this with an IOS device.
A quiet Haswell update as everything else gets updated on the store seems more likely. Maybe they will have a home server but it seems not appleish.
Plenty of opportunity to do a digital hub with a Time Capsule like device. A Time Capsule updated to aTV specs would likely handle the load.
I just want a Haswell processor, with Quad Core options, 32 GB of RAM support, and Intel Iris Pro graphics.
If it has this expect it to be $1799 for a quad i7 + 8 GB RAM + 1TB HDD.
Because the only iMac that does 32GB of RAM is the 27".
Still interested?
A quad i7 with 4GB RAM and Iris Pro for the current $899 blows the doors off the $1299 quad i5, 8GB RAM + 1TB HDD 21.5" iMac.
Even if you added 16GB RAM + SSD + keyboard + mouse for a $1537 total it blows the doors off the iMac.
I think the mini will not have Iris Pro as an option. Nor 32GB.
Sometimes I have the same feeling! The last iPad update certainly falls into the category of a disappointment.
You guys are so jaded that the retina mini release was a "disappointment".
I'm rolling my eyes so hard they're going to pop out of my head if I don't stop.
Well, it was a tablet too small. The iPad 5 wasn’t a disappointment, at least.
I use the term "variant" carefully here as you wouldn't put the same processor in this machine that you put into a cell phone. I see this brought up all the time and frankly I don't care. The reality is this, if the platform supports Apples apps, including XCode, I have the vast majority of my needs covered. Ideally Java support would be there. As to the rest of the world I think Apple will give develoeprs lots of incentive to compile their apps for ARM. Any lack of apps would be very short term.
Nobody these days would want anything to do with an emulation environment! There are simply more viable options for developers. As for Windows I miss that support less and less everyday. Honestly I don't know why this nonsense about an emulation environment keeps coming up, it is the most minor of problems for an ARM based Mini. The majority of users have a minimal number of apps installed. A common complaint is that there will be a lack of games but honestly who in their right mind buys a Mini to game?
Most of the negativity seems to come from people that need to run Windows. The obvious answer then is that the machine isn't for you. However for the overwhelming majority of users ARM would make no difference. Recompile will be the answer for many developers. Adobe may have a harder time but that is probably more due to processor specific code than anything.
You can write (read) all the articles you want but the reality is that in most cases it doesn't matter. The vast majority of apps are written in high level languages that will allow quick porting to ARM. In some cases nothing more than a recompile is required. It isn't much different than the transistion from 32 bit ARM to 64 bit ARM. Even the stuff that ADOBE might have done at a low level in the past is better done these days with OpenCL and the like.
Given that stuff like ADOBEs suites are at best niche products when running on a Mini. The Mini has never been a high performance machine.
Beyond all of that why would Apple completely abandon i86? They could support i86 for another decade or more without problem. I86 then becomes the high end platforms with ARM giving Apple leverage in the low end where it currently has no play. With some advance design work Apple could easily shave $300 pof the cost of the Mini if it wanted too. That is a big savings for a Mini like machine.
I'd actually like to see a machine that brings back everything in the keyboard approach that was common in the early years of personal computing.
I said iPad, which in my case always means what is now called the iPad Air. To be honest disappointment is a bit of an understatement as I was expecting a flash upgrade at the very least. Seriously have you looked at the price of flash recently? Apple has been milking the high upgrade costs for far too long. We are talking a few dollars of flash to go from 16GB to 32 and like wise from 32 to 64GB. THE UPGRADE PRICES MIGHT HAVE BEEN REASONABLE 3 years ago but no more.
That’s pretty funny. Props to you for that.
On the contrary. I can only see it going the other way. Ooh! What about a tiny silver cylinder! That’d be great.
As that’s exactly the product it’s designed to be, good for Apple.
Here’s something else you need to can.
Nope
http://store.apple.com/us/buy-mac/mac-mini
Isn't that your job? The Windows market doesn't respect size any more, it's all about value. Apple can make any size they want but if it doesn't compete on price, it won't hit the high volume market. There's no profit to be made in making the cheapest product in a lineup the most compelling either.
Err I think the guy you are responding to, means that something completely new is coming. I actually thinks there is a good possibility here. There are a number of options ID like to see. One would be a keyboard with a computer built in. The other is a scaled down Mac Pro designed with a nod to the old Crays.
The computer in a keyboard would be so damn convienent that I would jump on a couple right away. The Min Cray is because of my whimsical nature, priced right I could buy a couple of those too.
A lot of people are thinking along the same lines as you.Minute improvements they come out with nothing great.