1) So Steve Jobs is what exactly for having apologized publicly on many occasions?
2) What do you call someone that doesn't apologize when they know they are in the wrong (not saying Forestall was, as I've already pointed out previous)?
3) Based on your comment you are a previously banned poster who more than likely was banned because of childish personal attacks. Do you really want to start off another account going down that same road?
1) Steve had quite a reputation for telling people how things were, usually in person or by email response. If he FELT sorry, he apologized. If he didn't, he didn't.
2) Unapologetic. And obviously Scott felt he was not wrong, as even you pointed out.
3) An incorrect assumption. You may not like getting called out, but you'll get over it. No need to try and threaten my account. It's as empty as your opinions.
P.S. am I the only one that has no problems with Apple maps? I have used the Siri GPS function at least 10 times so far without a hitch. I have found no difference between this and the Google app version, other than the Apple app is much more elegant.
I'm no troll, check my posts...
But first use maps to find the town of Grenada, in Spain. :no:
Perhaps create an argument based in fact yourself before standing behind the equally flawed arguments of another.
You also post opinions based on your personal observations not on some published statistically supported study. So stop lecturing about the need to have "facts". This is a discussion board, we bring our opinions to this board, some might be more valid than others but very rarely we have the proof to say one's opinion is categorically right or wrong. You, however, feel that you can declare somebody's arguments flawed just because you say so, then get all offended when somebody does that to you. For a "global moderator", you sure don't understand that the first thing you should moderate is yourself.
I think a better approach would have been to call a press event:
1) Tim make the apology as he did
2) Turn the session over to Scott
3). Scott tell what steps they are taking ti address the problems (more detail) and the long term advantages of staying the course
4). Back to Tim who summarizes the above
It's called T3:
1) Tell 'em what you're gonna tell 'em
2) Tell 'em
3). Tell 'em what you told 'em
This would have been a better apology, and allowed the opportunity for Scott learn [the advantage of] humility by putting it to practice.
I disagree. I think the better approach was to been more transparent about Maps during the original demo to the point of preventing an impromptu apology and/or press event from being needed.
I agree with that... But they didn't do it and the damage was done -- requiring some response from Apple. Tim chose a letter, IMO, the approach outlined above would have better addressed the apology issue and grown Scott at the same time.
Sometime letting one save face earns you an ally for life.
You also post opinions based on your personal observations not on some published statistically supported study. So stop lecturing about the need to have "facts". This is a discussion board, we bring our opinions to this board, some might be more valid than others but very rarely we have the proof to say one's opinion is categorically right or wrong. You, however, feel that you can declare somebody's arguments flawed just because you say so, then get all offended when somebody does that to you. For a "global moderator", you sure don't understand that the first thing you should moderate is yourself.
tundra, your post is entirely without merit. Tallest, made a completely valid point and that was that a single word response "touché" to someone else's post criticising TS, is just the 'big dog, little dog' syndrome. 'touché" as response to another poster is just bullshit it's not in any way 'discussion', TS was not complaining about being criticised he was complaining about someone else just quoting another post and going "me too", after all that is why we have the thumbs up crap isn't it?
3) Based on your comment you are a previously banned poster…
Hmm. I don't see this. I see hatred and perhaps even insults directed at other users of this site, but nothing that says to me "I've had an account here before and think I'm really clever in that I've slipped in a reference to it".
P.S. am I the only one that has no problems with Apple maps? I have used the Siri GPS function at least 10 times so far without a hitch. I have found no difference between this and the Google app version, other than the Apple app is much more elegant.
I'm no troll, check my posts...
But first use maps to find the town of Grenada, in Spain. :no:
I had no problem finding Granada, Spain! Currently looking at the Alhambra and the Generalife!
Thus, it's hard to say whether its a good thing or a bad thing.
Likewise, its hard to say whether Apple will continue to be innovative or not.
The future of Apple seems up in the air at this point.
I like the fact that Apple that didn't used to apologize (at least so directly, didn't compare products to competitors (so directly), and didn't bad mouth other products (explicitly).
I liked that Apple never responded to market pressure, but rather created new markets.
I enjoy my iPhone 5, iPad 3, and have not yet had a problem with Maps.
If its' a legitimate hurricane nature has ways of shutting it down.
Yes but only if you have (the correct) faith.
As for me yes they over 'sold' maps, but don't think the apology was appropriate. While the furor has died down, the after taste is still there. Similar to FCPX. Should have simply said what 'revisions' are coming to make it insanely great.
Screw that. They don't have to apologize for ANYTHING. He knows how good it WILL be; why would he apologize for that? That's like Einstein's parents apologizing because their two year old was 'unruly'. Put it in context and it's not really important.
While he is right, when the CEO says to make an apology, you shut up and make it. Taking one in the interest of keeping customer faith is important.
That said, I suspect the myriad of bugs and broken features plus the cell data bug that was and still is running up folks bills like mad were probably the bigger issues.
I agree with that... But they didn't do it and the damage was done -- requiring some response from Apple. Tim chose a letter, IMO, the approach outlined above would have better addressed the apology issue and grown Scott at the same time.
Sometime letting one save face earns you an ally for life.
But what if Tim/Ivy doesn't want this ally in the 1st place?
During SJ's era, everyone comes and goes based on SJ's decision. Now that SJ's gone, people come and go based on who win and lose the political battles. That's how all big corporations work. Scott lost, Tim/Ivy won.
It's debatable whether or not Apple should have apologized. But if that's the decision that was come to, Forstall's refusal to accept it may have been the last straw in a series of culture clashes and not falling in line. Even if you disagree with a decision, it's pretty bad if you stubbornly refuse and make your boss shoulder it.
That and iOS is pretty tacky sometimes. Ice Cream Sandwich and Jelly Bean pretty much outclass it, which is sad.
There is a lot of press lately that is just making Apple look stupid.
Why is Cook allowing so much fodder to be handed over to Google and the Android camp.
Quit apologizing, quit signing letters, quit firing people... it makes it look like Apple is falling apart at the seams. Exactly the power struggle that a lot of people foretold last year on October 5th.
Is Apple just going to be a "safe" company now. Afraid to go out on a limb. Everyone in fear of their jobs.
I never liked Scott's personality and I also doubt he had a lot of intimate information about the actual source code. He was a manager not a software architect. Apple will be fine in his absence. I'm sure his ongoing consulting contract is just to make sure there are no hidden software contingencies that are in limbo.
I found the apology surprising. Yes, the media made a huge issue out of the new maps being less than perfect but then again, Google Maps were pretty horrendous when it launched with the original iPhone. If anything, I think expectations were set way too high.
I lean towards the side that argues the apology was unnecessary. I think a re-alignment of expectations was more in order.
I am glad he was let go. My experience with Maps was terrible - never gave me the right place - gave me wrong directions. After three incidents that led me to the wrong place, I gave up Maps and switched to Google Maps.
Comments
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX
1) So Steve Jobs is what exactly for having apologized publicly on many occasions?
2) What do you call someone that doesn't apologize when they know they are in the wrong (not saying Forestall was, as I've already pointed out previous)?
3) Based on your comment you are a previously banned poster who more than likely was banned because of childish personal attacks. Do you really want to start off another account going down that same road?
1) Steve had quite a reputation for telling people how things were, usually in person or by email response. If he FELT sorry, he apologized. If he didn't, he didn't.
2) Unapologetic. And obviously Scott felt he was not wrong, as even you pointed out.
3) An incorrect assumption. You may not like getting called out, but you'll get over it. No need to try and threaten my account. It's as empty as your opinions.
But first use maps to find the town of Grenada, in Spain. :no:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil
Perhaps create an argument based in fact yourself before standing behind the equally flawed arguments of another.
You also post opinions based on your personal observations not on some published statistically supported study. So stop lecturing about the need to have "facts". This is a discussion board, we bring our opinions to this board, some might be more valid than others but very rarely we have the proof to say one's opinion is categorically right or wrong. You, however, feel that you can declare somebody's arguments flawed just because you say so, then get all offended when somebody does that to you. For a "global moderator", you sure don't understand that the first thing you should moderate is yourself.
If its' a legitimate hurricane nature has ways of shutting it down.
I agree with that... But they didn't do it and the damage was done -- requiring some response from Apple. Tim chose a letter, IMO, the approach outlined above would have better addressed the apology issue and grown Scott at the same time.
Sometime letting one save face earns you an ally for life.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tundraboy
You also post opinions based on your personal observations not on some published statistically supported study. So stop lecturing about the need to have "facts". This is a discussion board, we bring our opinions to this board, some might be more valid than others but very rarely we have the proof to say one's opinion is categorically right or wrong. You, however, feel that you can declare somebody's arguments flawed just because you say so, then get all offended when somebody does that to you. For a "global moderator", you sure don't understand that the first thing you should moderate is yourself.
tundra, your post is entirely without merit. Tallest, made a completely valid point and that was that a single word response "touché" to someone else's post criticising TS, is just the 'big dog, little dog' syndrome. 'touché" as response to another poster is just bullshit it's not in any way 'discussion', TS was not complaining about being criticised he was complaining about someone else just quoting another post and going "me too", after all that is why we have the thumbs up crap isn't it?
Originally Posted by SolipsismX
3) Based on your comment you are a previously banned poster…
Hmm. I don't see this. I see hatred and perhaps even insults directed at other users of this site, but nothing that says to me "I've had an account here before and think I'm really clever in that I've slipped in a reference to it".
Because those happen a lot, and they're usually not subtle at all. Case in point, these accounts.
I had no problem finding Granada, Spain! Currently looking at the Alhambra and the Generalife!
Now, Grenada [sp] is somewhere else altogether...
Good catch, I missed that.
2. During SJ's years at Apple, specifically the rise of iOS, Apple was at the top of the game and far, far ahead. That lead is no longer the case.
3. I am not a fan of skeumorphic UI. I think Ive over seeing UI for software is a Good Thing.
4. From CNET: "In fact, Forstall recently sent an email to some of the folks on Apple's iOS software team saying that the group "wasn't working on enough big ideas in mobile software," according to the WSJ. That's effectively saying that Forstall thought the company was struggling to compete, so it's no surprise that tensions were mounting." http://news.cnet.com/8301-13579_3-57542297-37/apples-scott-forstall-ousted-after-refusing-to-sign-apology-reports-say/
I completely agree with Forstall on this point.
Final Thoughts:
Forstall's departure carries with it a trade off.
Thus, it's hard to say whether its a good thing or a bad thing.
Likewise, its hard to say whether Apple will continue to be innovative or not.
The future of Apple seems up in the air at this point.
I like the fact that Apple that didn't used to apologize (at least so directly, didn't compare products to competitors (so directly), and didn't bad mouth other products (explicitly).
I liked that Apple never responded to market pressure, but rather created new markets.
I enjoy my iPhone 5, iPad 3, and have not yet had a problem with Maps.
Yes but only if you have (the correct) faith.
As for me yes they over 'sold' maps, but don't think the apology was appropriate. While the furor has died down, the after taste is still there. Similar to FCPX. Should have simply said what 'revisions' are coming to make it insanely great.
While he is right, when the CEO says to make an apology, you shut up and make it. Taking one in the interest of keeping customer faith is important.
That said, I suspect the myriad of bugs and broken features plus the cell data bug that was and still is running up folks bills like mad were probably the bigger issues.
It was his department, he was responsible for iOS. And yet you say why make him sign and admit that HIS department let customers done?
Nope, he held a press event and placated folks with free bumpers
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum
I agree with that... But they didn't do it and the damage was done -- requiring some response from Apple. Tim chose a letter, IMO, the approach outlined above would have better addressed the apology issue and grown Scott at the same time.
Sometime letting one save face earns you an ally for life.
But what if Tim/Ivy doesn't want this ally in the 1st place?
During SJ's era, everyone comes and goes based on SJ's decision. Now that SJ's gone, people come and go based on who win and lose the political battles. That's how all big corporations work. Scott lost, Tim/Ivy won.
It's debatable whether or not Apple should have apologized. But if that's the decision that was come to, Forstall's refusal to accept it may have been the last straw in a series of culture clashes and not falling in line. Even if you disagree with a decision, it's pretty bad if you stubbornly refuse and make your boss shoulder it.
That and iOS is pretty tacky sometimes. Ice Cream Sandwich and Jelly Bean pretty much outclass it, which is sad.
There is a lot of press lately that is just making Apple look stupid.
Why is Cook allowing so much fodder to be handed over to Google and the Android camp.
Quit apologizing, quit signing letters, quit firing people... it makes it look like Apple is falling apart at the seams. Exactly the power struggle that a lot of people foretold last year on October 5th.
Is Apple just going to be a "safe" company now. Afraid to go out on a limb. Everyone in fear of their jobs.
Should be interesting over the next few months.
I never liked Scott's personality and I also doubt he had a lot of intimate information about the actual source code. He was a manager not a software architect. Apple will be fine in his absence. I'm sure his ongoing consulting contract is just to make sure there are no hidden software contingencies that are in limbo.
I lean towards the side that argues the apology was unnecessary. I think a re-alignment of expectations was more in order.
I am glad he was let go. My experience with Maps was terrible - never gave me the right place - gave me wrong directions. After three incidents that led me to the wrong place, I gave up Maps and switched to Google Maps.