Scott Forstall is probably Apple's equivalent of Microsoft's Steven Sinofsky. Both strike me as megalomaniacs. This is OK at Microsoft because it's the only way of getting things done but at Apple it ruins the synergy. Well, whatever. I never like his shirts, they look like pyjamas.
You mean someone wrote the letter for Tim Cook and he didn't write it with his heart?
But seriously, I wasn't aware that Forstall was a fan of skeuomorphism or whatever it's called. Apparently Ive is going to bring some cool new ideas to iOS, about time!!
There goes the theory that one day he will be CEO. I didn't see this coming. I wonder, how do you lose a awesome paying gig like this and not feel the urge to jump off a bridge? It's one thing to take a $2 an hour pay cut to go to another job, but this.....wow.
I am glad he was let go. My experience with Maps was terrible - never gave me the right place - gave me wrong directions. After three incidents that led me to the wrong place, I gave up Maps and switched to Google Maps.
As I understand it, Maps works great in the US. My experience bears this out. I've used Maps dozens of times, twice for a trip to the next state (different cities), twice to cities about an hour away, as well as a lot more local routes. Apple Maps generally makes better routes than the competition. The larger "road sign" theme for telling you your next turn is a lot better than before, where it was tiny text in a tiny gray header bar.
I had no problem finding Granada, Spain! Currently looking at the Alhambra and the Generalife!
Now, Grenada [sp] is somewhere else altogether...
Huh. I didn't think about that. But when I tried to force the location to be in Spain by saying "Grenada, Spain", it doesn't consider that I might have misspelled the location name, and doesn't bother to consider that Spain as a country might be what I want. I get Spain's Supermarket in Grenada Mississippi in Apple Maps, Google shows me Granada, Spain.
That's because it wasn't. It was pretty much entirely fabricated. Maps, at launch, was FAR better than Google Maps at launch.
Except aren't we comparing the competitive landscape of today instead of 2008 (or whenever people see as Google Maps being launched)? You see that is what the end consumer is likely comparing against. Apple itself never said during launch that this is going to be less accurate than Google maps for the time being or that there will be bugs did they?
The expectations then is pretty much a personal experience based on previous usage history, marketing and rumors amongst other factors. To state that the critisism was entirely fabricated is in my opinion obnoxious, since that assumes that your personal feelings or opinions are the only correct ones.
I'd guess that most of us understand that the level of accuracy that a global mapping solution requires is astounding and requires a massive amount of work -> bug are bound to exist. But does the consumer care if they are accustomed to the fact that everything Apple "just works"? Especially if marketing claims this?
Here's a question to ask yourself:
At the time of the iPhone 5 rollout, how many senior executives at Apple were unaware of the deficiencies of the new maps app?
Given the answer to the above, raises a lot of other interesting questions.
IMO, this [MapsGate] is a BS reason ginned up by the tech press and blogs...
@ "Sign a letter? I'd tellem it was my department- I take the blame, but they can take that letter and shove it!"
I think I'm going to put a variation of the Scott Forstall forced outage in my kitbag of questions posed to division-level hiring candidates. Whether they answer much as "andysol" or more along the lines of the philosophical "solipsismx" will give me an interesting datapoint concerning how higher-level potential hires may fit into our corporate culture.
I am glad he was let go. My experience with Maps was terrible - never gave me the right place - gave me wrong directions. After three incidents that led me to the wrong place, I gave up Maps and switched to Google Maps.
As I understand it, Maps works great in the US. My experience bears this out. I've used Maps dozens of times, twice for a trip to the next state (different cities), twice to cities about an hour away, as well as a lot more local routes. Apple Maps generally makes better routes than the competition. The larger "road sign" theme for telling you your next turn is a lot better than before, where it was tiny text in a tiny gray header bar.
I had no problem finding Granada, Spain! Currently looking at the Alhambra and the Generalife!
Now, Grenada [sp] is somewhere else altogether...
Huh. I didn't think about that. But when I tried to force the location to be in Spain by saying "Grenada, Spain", it doesn't consider that I might have misspelled the location name, and doesn't bother to consider that Spain might be a country. I get Spain's Supermarket in Grenada Mississippi in Apple Maps, Google shows me Granada, Spain.
Yes, I agree! One of the deficiencies of Apple maps as compared to Google maps is poor search results.... Or, maybe, the requirement for more precise search input.
I hope that this is a temporary advantage for Googlee -- in that they have a very broad and deep history of searches with which to determine the user's intent and filter the search results. If Apple has done a correct job of implementing the search algorithm, it will flesh itself out as it processes more searches over time.
I agree with Forstall. There was no need to apologize for the maps app. An apology does not satisfy any disgruntled users. It actually encourages them to intensify their ranting and whining. Just take a look at the Apple discussions forums. Tim Cook's apology hasn't changed a thing. Not a single user has accepted the apology and it has instead thrown gasoline on the fire. And as a user who has had no problems with the maps app I see the apology as weakness in the face of unwarranted criticism. Apple's enemies have a new weapon to wield too. The apology is a lose/lose for Apple and has damaged their image more then the maps flap ever could have. Apple is now going to be required to apologize for any perceived flaw in any hardware or software.
Forstall was the brainchild behind all of this? Really? Then how come he got 3 mentions in Walter Isaacson's Jobs biography while Ive gets a whole chapter. And how come Forstall is gone while Ive's (among others) role at Apple was expanded?
I don't see how Siri can be his brainchildren, when its initial form was purchased from the company Siri.
There goes the theory that one day he will be CEO. I didn't see this coming. I wonder, how do you lose a awesome paying gig like this and not feel the urge to jump off a bridge? It's one thing to take a $2 an hour pay cut to go to another job, but this.....wow.
Why should he be depressed for a long time, he will get another job, since he has lApple ongiveity and he could sell the issue as a difference of characters, i.e., himself and Tim Cook, since Tim became CEO. Beleive me I seen people get fired and end up with a better job, one year later and actually get a 2 level jump in their next job. If you read about Apple a lot, there has been mention of his relationship with other apple empolyees in the past. Additionally, he has at least USD$19 million cash from the sale of his shares this year (taking the fact, he paid 50% tax as the worst case). I think he needs to reflect on what went wrong, ensure he has learned from his mistakes and get a another job.
As for John Browett, he going have a more diffcult sell to potential new employers, but he also will land on his feet, since what startegy is not good for Apple will suit some other comapny.
I have to say I did not find the program nearly as bad as some tried to make it. In fact for me it was better at routing me than the Google Maps app for iOS was.
I agree. I live in china and some of the places I like to go are actually in the right spot in Apples's maps vs. not in the right spot in Google. My experience is there are many items in Google's maps that are not exactly right.
Yes, I agree! One of the deficiencies of Apple maps as compared to Google maps is poor search results.... Or, maybe, the requirement for more precise search input.
I hope that this is a temporary advantage for Googlee -- in that they have a very broad and deep history of searches with which to determine the user's intent and filter the search results. If Apple has done a correct job of implementing the search algorithm, it will flesh itself out as it processes more searches over time.
Apple's results are sometimes location-dependent. The result I got is be more apropos if you weigh locality. Like how Motorola made hay about that park address in Manhattan. But there, at least you could add "Manhattan" and get the result you were seeking. Being in North America, directions to the country Spain doesn't make sense.
I wonder what the result would be if you typed "Grenada" while you were in Spain.
The ONLY person of a publicly-owned company that should be making ANY kind of a public apology (written or spoken) is the CEO. No one else (including Forstall) has any business making official public statements representing the company.
Except, again, Phil Schiller and several other Apple employees that over the years they have designated as being official commenters.
I agree with Forstall. There was no need to apologize for the maps app. An apology does not satisfy any disgruntled users. It actually encourages them to intensify their ranting and whining. Just take a look at the Apple discussions forums. Tim Cook's apology hasn't changed a thing. Not a single user has accepted the apology and it has instead thrown gasoline on the fire. And as a user who has had no problems with the maps app I see the apology as weakness in the face of unwarranted criticism. Apple's enemies have a new weapon to wield too. The apology is a lose/lose for Apple and has damaged their image more then the maps flap ever could have. Apple is now going to be required to apologize for any perceived flaw in any hardware or software.
I dont see Apple apologizing for everything they've done wrong, like Scuffgate. Instead they just tightened the noose around Foxconn's neck, in which it happens behind closed doors.
To say that Maps wasnt worth an apology to its users when a significant amount of users were having issues, from some being mild like Flyover (a highly touted feature) to being incredibly severe (miles off on map locations with blurred or basic grid data with no detail) is a slap in the face to people who buy their products. This wasn't a Beta product, and it was touted as being far superior than what it replaced.
If Jobs were still alive i'd say Forstall probably wouldn't have made it this long without getting toasted, since Jobs was strict about the DRI and that would have meant Forstall's ass. Remember the MobileMe catastrophe? When it comes to software, everyone expects Apple to be on their game.
Everyone is focused on how lousy the map app is - and I think a lot of that is anti-Apple media hype - but there have been a ton of other software issues that have upset a good portion of our community. Just off the top of my head:
Apple TV home screen layout
Separating podcasts from music in iOS 6
Personally, I could care less about the Maps app because I use Waze, which I found superior to Google Maps anyway. But there have been enough "hiccups" over the past year+ to make Forstall's departure inevitable in the nearer-than-later term. That's MY opinion, yo.
Once again, someone shows just how little they actually know about anything.
I don't understand why ifail's opinion "shows just how little they actually know about anything." What was Jobs' record when it came to firing software engineers? I honestly don't know.
First of all, an apology letter for Maps was absolutely the right course of action. It shows concern from a company obsessed with customer satisfaction. It shows that Apple is listening and that it cares not only about its customers, but its own reputation. It took a lot of humble pie for Cook to write and sign that apology letter.
However, I don't feel that it would have been appropriate for Scott to sign that letter. Ultimately it's Steve Cook who is responsible for everything that Apple does. Just like President Obama accepts all responsibility for what happened in Benghazi, even though supposedly it was Hillary's call, Cook must accept responsibility with Maps. As I've said in the past, Cook is a delegator. Did Cook not use Maps before it was released? How could Cook have even allowed such a flawed product to launch as anything but a "beta"? Cook has a different management style than Jobs. He's not as "hands-on".
In some respects, management got rid of Forstall because it could not properly manage him or his products. It sounds like Forstall didn't play well at Apple and was buffered by Steve Jobs. I think Forstall was Jobs' protege, and now that Jobs is gone Forstall has nobody to protect him anymore. Also, Forstall has not risen up the executive ranks at Apple - while he held the SVP title, he was solely in charge of iOS. Federighi was promoted to oversee all software development, not Forstall, so something wasn't meshing.
I don't think the media has wrapped its collective head around what really happened. I don't think it was due to any single event. I have a feeling that there was a lot of internal strife at Apple regarding Forstall. It is being reported now that many at Apple are quietly celebrating. It doesn't sound like this guy was beloved. The consolidation of Forstall's responsibilities across various other SVP's makes a lot of sense and has Cook's fingerprints all over it. Cook is an operations guy, having Jonny Ive handle UI and Federighi iOS makes total sense. Apple also needs to better converge iOS with OS X, so Forstall's departure also signals a probably shift in focus towards consolidating both operating systems.
Having been to an Apple Store recently, I can say that I'm glad to see Browett go. In fact, I would like the door to hit his *ss on the way out. He was just the absolute wrong fit for Apple and Cook made a big mistake hiring him. Apple needs someone who is a good fit with their customer-centric culture, not a vulture who wants to generate profits at the expense of staff. Most retail execs can't understand Apple's culture because it is so different.
tundra, your post is entirely without merit. Tallest, made a completely valid point and that was that a single word response "touché" to someone else's post criticising TS, is just the 'big dog, little dog' syndrome. 'touché" as response to another poster is just bullshit it's not in any way 'discussion', TS was not complaining about being criticised he was complaining about someone else just quoting another post and going "me too", after all that is why we have the thumbs up crap isn't it?
Comments
Scott Forstall is probably Apple's equivalent of Microsoft's Steven Sinofsky. Both strike me as megalomaniacs. This is OK at Microsoft because it's the only way of getting things done but at Apple it ruins the synergy. Well, whatever. I never like his shirts, they look like pyjamas.
You mean someone wrote the letter for Tim Cook and he didn't write it with his heart?
But seriously, I wasn't aware that Forstall was a fan of skeuomorphism or whatever it's called. Apparently Ive is going to bring some cool new ideas to iOS, about time!!
I'm now impatient to see iOS 7.
As I understand it, Maps works great in the US. My experience bears this out. I've used Maps dozens of times, twice for a trip to the next state (different cities), twice to cities about an hour away, as well as a lot more local routes. Apple Maps generally makes better routes than the competition. The larger "road sign" theme for telling you your next turn is a lot better than before, where it was tiny text in a tiny gray header bar.
Outside the US is where it gets problematic.
Huh. I didn't think about that. But when I tried to force the location to be in Spain by saying "Grenada, Spain", it doesn't consider that I might have misspelled the location name, and doesn't bother to consider that Spain as a country might be what I want. I get Spain's Supermarket in Grenada Mississippi in Apple Maps, Google shows me Granada, Spain.
Here's a question to ask yourself:
At the time of the iPhone 5 rollout, how many senior executives at Apple were unaware of the deficiencies of the new maps app?
Given the answer to the above, raises a lot of other interesting questions.
IMO, this [MapsGate] is a BS reason ginned up by the tech press and blogs...
I think I'm going to put a variation of the Scott Forstall forced outage in my kitbag of questions posed to division-level hiring candidates. Whether they answer much as "andysol" or more along the lines of the philosophical "solipsismx" will give me an interesting datapoint concerning how higher-level potential hires may fit into our corporate culture.
Yes, I agree! One of the deficiencies of Apple maps as compared to Google maps is poor search results.... Or, maybe, the requirement for more precise search input.
I hope that this is a temporary advantage for Googlee -- in that they have a very broad and deep history of searches with which to determine the user's intent and filter the search results. If Apple has done a correct job of implementing the search algorithm, it will flesh itself out as it processes more searches over time.
I agree with Forstall. There was no need to apologize for the maps app. An apology does not satisfy any disgruntled users. It actually encourages them to intensify their ranting and whining. Just take a look at the Apple discussions forums. Tim Cook's apology hasn't changed a thing. Not a single user has accepted the apology and it has instead thrown gasoline on the fire. And as a user who has had no problems with the maps app I see the apology as weakness in the face of unwarranted criticism. Apple's enemies have a new weapon to wield too. The apology is a lose/lose for Apple and has damaged their image more then the maps flap ever could have. Apple is now going to be required to apologize for any perceived flaw in any hardware or software.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogifan
Forstall was the brainchild behind all of this? Really? Then how come he got 3 mentions in Walter Isaacson's Jobs biography while Ive gets a whole chapter. And how come Forstall is gone while Ive's (among others) role at Apple was expanded?
I don't see how Siri can be his brainchildren, when its initial form was purchased from the company Siri.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleFanPro
There goes the theory that one day he will be CEO. I didn't see this coming. I wonder, how do you lose a awesome paying gig like this and not feel the urge to jump off a bridge? It's one thing to take a $2 an hour pay cut to go to another job, but this.....wow.
Why should he be depressed for a long time, he will get another job, since he has lApple ongiveity and he could sell the issue as a difference of characters, i.e., himself and Tim Cook, since Tim became CEO. Beleive me I seen people get fired and end up with a better job, one year later and actually get a 2 level jump in their next job. If you read about Apple a lot, there has been mention of his relationship with other apple empolyees in the past. Additionally, he has at least USD$19 million cash from the sale of his shares this year (taking the fact, he paid 50% tax as the worst case). I think he needs to reflect on what went wrong, ensure he has learned from his mistakes and get a another job.
As for John Browett, he going have a more diffcult sell to potential new employers, but he also will land on his feet, since what startegy is not good for Apple will suit some other comapny.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Protagonistic
I have to say I did not find the program nearly as bad as some tried to make it. In fact for me it was better at routing me than the Google Maps app for iOS was.
I agree. I live in china and some of the places I like to go are actually in the right spot in Apples's maps vs. not in the right spot in Google. My experience is there are many items in Google's maps that are not exactly right.
deleted
Apple's results are sometimes location-dependent. The result I got is be more apropos if you weigh locality. Like how Motorola made hay about that park address in Manhattan. But there, at least you could add "Manhattan" and get the result you were seeking. Being in North America, directions to the country Spain doesn't make sense.
I wonder what the result would be if you typed "Grenada" while you were in Spain.
Originally Posted by sflocal
The ONLY person of a publicly-owned company that should be making ANY kind of a public apology (written or spoken) is the CEO. No one else (including Forstall) has any business making official public statements representing the company.
Except, again, Phil Schiller and several other Apple employees that over the years they have designated as being official commenters.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lkrupp
I agree with Forstall. There was no need to apologize for the maps app. An apology does not satisfy any disgruntled users. It actually encourages them to intensify their ranting and whining. Just take a look at the Apple discussions forums. Tim Cook's apology hasn't changed a thing. Not a single user has accepted the apology and it has instead thrown gasoline on the fire. And as a user who has had no problems with the maps app I see the apology as weakness in the face of unwarranted criticism. Apple's enemies have a new weapon to wield too. The apology is a lose/lose for Apple and has damaged their image more then the maps flap ever could have. Apple is now going to be required to apologize for any perceived flaw in any hardware or software.
I dont see Apple apologizing for everything they've done wrong, like Scuffgate. Instead they just tightened the noose around Foxconn's neck, in which it happens behind closed doors.
To say that Maps wasnt worth an apology to its users when a significant amount of users were having issues, from some being mild like Flyover (a highly touted feature) to being incredibly severe (miles off on map locations with blurred or basic grid data with no detail) is a slap in the face to people who buy their products. This wasn't a Beta product, and it was touted as being far superior than what it replaced.
If Jobs were still alive i'd say Forstall probably wouldn't have made it this long without getting toasted, since Jobs was strict about the DRI and that would have meant Forstall's ass. Remember the MobileMe catastrophe? When it comes to software, everyone expects Apple to be on their game.
Everyone is focused on how lousy the map app is - and I think a lot of that is anti-Apple media hype - but there have been a ton of other software issues that have upset a good portion of our community. Just off the top of my head:
Apple TV home screen layout
Separating podcasts from music in iOS 6
Personally, I could care less about the Maps app because I use Waze, which I found superior to Google Maps anyway. But there have been enough "hiccups" over the past year+ to make Forstall's departure inevitable in the nearer-than-later term. That's MY opinion, yo.
Originally Posted by ifail
If Jobs were still alive i'd say Forstall probably wouldn't have made it this long without getting toasted…
Once again, someone shows just how little they actually know about anything.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil
Once again, someone shows just how little they actually know about anything.
I don't understand why ifail's opinion "shows just how little they actually know about anything." What was Jobs' record when it came to firing software engineers? I honestly don't know.
First of all, an apology letter for Maps was absolutely the right course of action. It shows concern from a company obsessed with customer satisfaction. It shows that Apple is listening and that it cares not only about its customers, but its own reputation. It took a lot of humble pie for Cook to write and sign that apology letter.
However, I don't feel that it would have been appropriate for Scott to sign that letter. Ultimately it's Steve Cook who is responsible for everything that Apple does. Just like President Obama accepts all responsibility for what happened in Benghazi, even though supposedly it was Hillary's call, Cook must accept responsibility with Maps. As I've said in the past, Cook is a delegator. Did Cook not use Maps before it was released? How could Cook have even allowed such a flawed product to launch as anything but a "beta"? Cook has a different management style than Jobs. He's not as "hands-on".
In some respects, management got rid of Forstall because it could not properly manage him or his products. It sounds like Forstall didn't play well at Apple and was buffered by Steve Jobs. I think Forstall was Jobs' protege, and now that Jobs is gone Forstall has nobody to protect him anymore. Also, Forstall has not risen up the executive ranks at Apple - while he held the SVP title, he was solely in charge of iOS. Federighi was promoted to oversee all software development, not Forstall, so something wasn't meshing.
I don't think the media has wrapped its collective head around what really happened. I don't think it was due to any single event. I have a feeling that there was a lot of internal strife at Apple regarding Forstall. It is being reported now that many at Apple are quietly celebrating. It doesn't sound like this guy was beloved. The consolidation of Forstall's responsibilities across various other SVP's makes a lot of sense and has Cook's fingerprints all over it. Cook is an operations guy, having Jonny Ive handle UI and Federighi iOS makes total sense. Apple also needs to better converge iOS with OS X, so Forstall's departure also signals a probably shift in focus towards consolidating both operating systems.
Having been to an Apple Store recently, I can say that I'm glad to see Browett go. In fact, I would like the door to hit his *ss on the way out. He was just the absolute wrong fit for Apple and Cook made a big mistake hiring him. Apple needs someone who is a good fit with their customer-centric culture, not a vulture who wants to generate profits at the expense of staff. Most retail execs can't understand Apple's culture because it is so different.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AnalogJack
tundra, your post is entirely without merit. Tallest, made a completely valid point and that was that a single word response "touché" to someone else's post criticising TS, is just the 'big dog, little dog' syndrome. 'touché" as response to another poster is just bullshit it's not in any way 'discussion', TS was not complaining about being criticised he was complaining about someone else just quoting another post and going "me too", after all that is why we have the thumbs up crap isn't it?
+1. ^ This