Happy for Ive to get the combo role but I am a bit concerned that we might see more of the "form over function" decision making from him that has led to the new iMac having an SD slot on the back.
If the software equivalent of this comes to pass it would be an issue.
This opinion is predicated on one agreeing with me that an SD card slot in the back of an iMac is a really annoying placement...
Marvin, Marvin, Marvin - you are a moderator and have over 8,,000 posts and you seem to have little or no understanding of the fact that the removal of Scott was a good thing. How can that be?
Probably because it wasn't.
Do you know anyone else who led the team that created iOS and who is now free to go work for Google and give them directly what they've previously just stolen?
Just when I thought the click-whoring over ‘mapgate’ was dying down…
Oh, for the love of Pete!
---
For the record, if anything like all this rampant speculation even happened, I hope he did refuse to sign the maps apology letter. Steve should never have supplied free bumpers in the wake of ‘antenna-gate’ either.
Antenna-gate was made up ****; the new maps rock.
Go whine to your mom about a melted looking bridge, wussies!
Personally, I think the OS could use a lot more features that would be needed. I don't have any problems with Maps either, but that doesn't mean others don't. FWIW, I thought Forstall's look in his eyes was a little creepy. I know it's a small thing, but they guys have to keep their ego in check around the work place. Actually, putting both iOS and OS X team under the same guy actually makes sense since they have to kind of worth towards the same goal.
I wonder if this will bring some much needed changes to OS X and iOS. Aside from going more grey, very little has changed in in OS X since Tiger and iOS 6 is really little changed since iOS 3 save for Siri. I am not suggesting change just for the sake of it like Windows 8, but there are certainly a number of areas where Apple could make some big additions and improvements. I doubt I am the only one to feel that both OS X and iOS are getting a little stale and needs some major new features. At the very minimum you would think Apple would finally allow multiple users accounts on iOS especially for iPads where you might have several people sharing one but with different email accounts and apps.
Happy for Ive to get the combo role but I am a bit concerned that we might see more of the "form over function" decision making from him that has led to the new iMac having an SD slot on the back.
If the software equivalent of this comes to pass it would be an issue.
This opinion is predicated on one agreeing with me that an SD card slot in the back of an iMac is a really annoying placement...
Well, you kind of lost me when you used the "form over function" argument which has been proven to be nonsense over and over again. Neither Apple nor Ive can really be accused of doing "form over function," at least as long as the writer actually understands what the term means.
You point to one minor example which could be interpreted that way (the SD card slot on the back), but there could be many other reasons for it's location there as well. It could, for example, be related to the fact that the SD card slot itself is getting very little use in the first place.
In other words this is only "form over function" for someone who uses that slot day in and day out (likely yourself), but if the number of people who need it there as much as you do is relatively small, then putting it on the back is instead a rather typical design tradeoff and not "form over function" at all.
First, Apple has a deep bench. Having Forstall gone is not a big deal. Jon Ive is an extremely talented guy. Much of Apple's success is marketing and superior design/human interaction. Having Ive a bigger say in design of Apple's products is actually good news. The only issue with Forstall is he knows too much about the future products of Apple. Cook is offering him "big money" to ask him to stay for a short while so that the sensitive info that may have may no longer be sensitive. Don't cry for Forstall...he will land in some place to be a CEO of his company. I don't think that he wants to work for Google or Samsung.
Noncompete clause..(If he doesn't have one he still has a nondisclosure agreement).
And if he doesn't have one of those... If you F*** with the bull, you get the horns...
Forestall is a part of the software division therefore he only knew about the software applications not the hardware devices... And having released all the new products that pretty much means his Exposure is not that great...
and with Tim Cook having shown that he's not afraid to fire people... I would think he's not afraid to Sue Scott Forstall into oblivion if Scott Forstall starts giving away secrets that he shouldn't... i.e. ones that are covered under nondisclosure agreement...
And although Scott Forstall has his name on patents... They were developed at Apple so therefore Apple has the controlling interest in said patents.
For Scott Forstall to be a CEO he needs to follow the Career path of Steve Jobs meaning he has to buy innovation from another company with his Apple stock, create a Pixar like division sell it get $6 billion and then become CEO...
(LOL Siri added the buy innovation from another company... (yes i said it but in a different way),,, but it is so true!... that division from ILM was innovation and Steve Jobs made it what it is today!...)
Do you know anyone else who led the team that created iOS and who is now free to go work for Google and give them directly what they've previously just stolen?
And that's ignoring the loss to Apple itself.
What could he "steal"? An idea? With totally different code it's not as tho anything in iOS could be interchanged with Android and vice-versa.
I wonder if this will bring some much needed changes to OS X and iOS. Aside from going more grey, very little has changed in in OS X since Tiger and iOS 6 is really little changed since iOS 3 save for Siri. I am not suggesting change just for the sake of it like Windows 8, but there are certainly a number of areas where Apple could make some big additions and improvements. I doubt I am the only one to feel that both OS X and iOS are getting a little stale and needs some major new features. At the very minimum you would think Apple would finally allow multiple users accounts on iOS especially for iPads where you might have several people sharing one but with different email accounts and apps.
I know you state that you aren't advocating change for changes sake alone, but that's pretty much what your entire comment says.
The only feature you mention is user accounts on the iPad, but that seems both unworkable and awkward to me. The device is intended to be used by one person, the entire OS is set up that way as is the hardware.
I think people asking for multiple user accounts in iOS is similar to users asking for a second steering wheel in the back seat of every car. It might indeed be handy for those times when Dad falls asleep at the wheel and threatens to kill the family, but it sort of goes against the whole concept of "car" and "driving," and cannot be accomplished without a huge wasting of resources.
So they're saying he was fired at short notice and didn't leave of his own accord. I don't think it's right to automatically assume he was the problem in all this though. He might just have tried to stand his ground on certain issues. We shouldn't label someone an asshole until we know why people think of them that way. It might turn out to be the case that the people being left in control are the assholes. No matter which it is, it's never good when talented staff leave a company. There's a reason he has been at Apple for 15 years.
Imagine if he went to work at Google and brought his knowledge of iOS to help improve Android.
My thoughts exactly. I emailed Tim Cook and reminded him that Steve wasn't considered likable either. This decision will not bode well for the company, and I expect to see him make waves elsewhere in the industry.
That is a valid concern but he is likely smart enough to stay out of areas that are not his strengths. My worry is that he fancies himself the next Steve Jobs and will want to make decisions across the board. That didn't work so well for Forstall.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wurm5150
He does use software to design hardware..
How is that relevant?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gazoobee
If this is true (the firing), it's still bad news. Everyone knows Forestall was a bit of a jerk, that's not a good reason to let him go and ...
I don't believe it anyway as it doesn't explain why he cashed out all his shares a while ago does it? He expected to be fired? He asked to be fired?
Could be a combination of both. But I believe the firing is more than about being a jerk or about messing up on maps. Look at the heading of their press release: "Apple Announces Changes to Increase Collaboration Across Hardware, Software & Services"
It is about being able to integrate software and hardware. They can't do that effectively when Ive and Forstall cannot work together. I can work with jerks, but I cannot work with intransigent nice guys who will say one thing and do another, or will not take responsibility for screw-ups. And there have been copious software screw-ups, including but not limited to Maps. There are good reasons to question their software QA, just as is the case at Google and Microsoft too. I can remember a time when new software releases were not so laden with fundamental but also easily discovered bugs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wurm5150
He does use software to design hardware..
His new additional job isn't software engineering, it's user interface. He is a an Industrial Designer but a DESIGNER none the less.
First, UI is not just about design. It is much deeper and broader. Second, industrial design and software design share only one thing in common: the word design. To say that he is a designer and is therefore qualified to lead user interface is - I am sorry to say - simply ignorant. I am saying Ive is not going to do great (he will if he is an adviser), but I can tell you there are software people at Apple who are quietly worried.
I believe this re-org can and will work. But I also believe that the reason for it will be the rise of Craig Federighi, and another software star. Or perhaps, they can lure back Bertrand Serlet.
Do you know anyone else who led the team that created iOS and who is now free to go work for Google and give them directly what they've previously just stolen?
And that's ignoring the loss to Apple itself.
Sh!t. Why didn't Cook think of this before letting him go?
Seriously, if he was fired/pushed out, Cook probably determined that the harm he was doing and was capable of doing internally outweighed the benefits of having him there and the harm he is capable of doing externally.
Un-seriously, maybe he is some sort of Trojan Horse/Manchurian Candidate heading up to Mountain View. Or maybe he truly is the future CEO of Apple, Inc. and this begins his time in exile from the company.
What could he "steal"? An idea? With totally different code it's not as tho anything in iOS could be interchanged with Android and vice-versa.
I'm gonna go ahead and ignore the obvious point of your post—
"Of course," he says, respectfully bowing a little.
—of course (I reply, returning the compliment), and mention that, while operationally Android is far inferior and cannot replace iOS in regard to usability, it can sure be installed on the same hardware.
"But that doesn't address my point."
Again, I'm purposely ignoring it. I know that you have to hold that position for whatever reason, and I'll just leave it at that. We already know the truth.
... Actually, putting both iOS and OS X team under the same guy actually makes sense since they have to kind of worth towards the same goal.
I keep hearing this comment about Ive "being put in charge of both groups," but as a former designer I can say with some authority that being good at 3D design or Industrial design does not in any way translate to being good at 2D design or indeed, software design. They are differentdisciplines with entirely differentskill sets.
You only have to look at Ive's horrible taste in clothes, houses, and almost everything else to see that being an uber-cool industrial designer doesn't give him blanket authority to design the rest of the world as well. At best, Ive could possibly choose between two competing options on the basis of his personal taste alone, but the future design of iOS 6 is now up to Federighi, and whomever is sort of second in command behind Forestall, not Ive.
The executive shuffling is just about who is overseeing things. I would be far more comfortable if they would announce who it is exactly that is going to step into Forestall's shoes in terms of design and design management. Who is actually going to do the work?
So far we actually don't know who's "taking over" from Scott Forestall.
I keep hearing this comment about Ive "being put in charge of both groups," but as a former designer I can say with some authority that being good at 3D design or Industrial design does not in any way translate to being good at 2D design or indeed, software design. They are differentdisciplines with entirely differentskill sets.
Exactly, UI design ? hardware design. BUT, I'm confident that he knows this. I doubt he'd take this responsibility if he didn't either A. think it would be cool to learn how to do properly or B. have already learned how to go about this sort of thing.
Or even C. not think there is anyone else out there that could do it credit.
As to "skeumorphic" - it's like having plastic flowers in the Villa Savoie.
Not really. Not at all, in fact. The alternative is having painted pieces of straight, unworked steel with the word "flower" written on each in pen. You think THAT is better? Look at Windows 8.
Comments
If the software equivalent of this comes to pass it would be an issue.
This opinion is predicated on one agreeing with me that an SD card slot in the back of an iMac is a really annoying placement...
Originally Posted by FreeRange
Marvin, Marvin, Marvin - you are a moderator and have over 8,,000 posts and you seem to have little or no understanding of the fact that the removal of Scott was a good thing. How can that be?
Probably because it wasn't.
Do you know anyone else who led the team that created iOS and who is now free to go work for Google and give them directly what they've previously just stolen?
And that's ignoring the loss to Apple itself.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacManFelix
Just when I thought the click-whoring over ‘mapgate’ was dying down…
Oh, for the love of Pete!
---
For the record, if anything like all this rampant speculation even happened, I hope he did refuse to sign the maps apology letter. Steve should never have supplied free bumpers in the wake of ‘antenna-gate’ either.
Antenna-gate was made up ****; the new maps rock.
Go whine to your mom about a melted looking bridge, wussies!
Personally, I think the OS could use a lot more features that would be needed. I don't have any problems with Maps either, but that doesn't mean others don't. FWIW, I thought Forstall's look in his eyes was a little creepy. I know it's a small thing, but they guys have to keep their ego in check around the work place. Actually, putting both iOS and OS X team under the same guy actually makes sense since they have to kind of worth towards the same goal.
... so Forstall have same treat as Steve Jobs
this firing is not good for Apple in long run, for sure.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin
Imagine if he went to work at Google and brought his knowledge of iOS to help improve Android.
No need. Android is already perfect.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rosylee007
Happy for Ive to get the combo role but I am a bit concerned that we might see more of the "form over function" decision making from him that has led to the new iMac having an SD slot on the back.
If the software equivalent of this comes to pass it would be an issue.
This opinion is predicated on one agreeing with me that an SD card slot in the back of an iMac is a really annoying placement...
Well, you kind of lost me when you used the "form over function" argument which has been proven to be nonsense over and over again. Neither Apple nor Ive can really be accused of doing "form over function," at least as long as the writer actually understands what the term means.
You point to one minor example which could be interpreted that way (the SD card slot on the back), but there could be many other reasons for it's location there as well. It could, for example, be related to the fact that the SD card slot itself is getting very little use in the first place.
In other words this is only "form over function" for someone who uses that slot day in and day out (likely yourself), but if the number of people who need it there as much as you do is relatively small, then putting it on the back is instead a rather typical design tradeoff and not "form over function" at all.
Noncompete clause..(If he doesn't have one he still has a nondisclosure agreement).
And if he doesn't have one of those... If you F*** with the bull, you get the horns...
Forestall is a part of the software division therefore he only knew about the software applications not the hardware devices... And having released all the new products that pretty much means his Exposure is not that great...
and with Tim Cook having shown that he's not afraid to fire people... I would think he's not afraid to Sue Scott Forstall into oblivion if Scott Forstall starts giving away secrets that he shouldn't... i.e. ones that are covered under nondisclosure agreement...
And although Scott Forstall has his name on patents... They were developed at Apple so therefore Apple has the controlling interest in said patents.
For Scott Forstall to be a CEO he needs to follow the Career path of Steve Jobs meaning he has to buy innovation from another company with his Apple stock, create a Pixar like division sell it get $6 billion and then become CEO...
(LOL Siri added the buy innovation from another company... (yes i said it but in a different way),,, but it is so true!... that division from ILM was innovation and Steve Jobs made it what it is today!...)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil
Probably because it wasn't.
Do you know anyone else who led the team that created iOS and who is now free to go work for Google and give them directly what they've previously just stolen?
And that's ignoring the loss to Apple itself.
What could he "steal"? An idea? With totally different code it's not as tho anything in iOS could be interchanged with Android and vice-versa.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gwmac
I wonder if this will bring some much needed changes to OS X and iOS. Aside from going more grey, very little has changed in in OS X since Tiger and iOS 6 is really little changed since iOS 3 save for Siri. I am not suggesting change just for the sake of it like Windows 8, but there are certainly a number of areas where Apple could make some big additions and improvements. I doubt I am the only one to feel that both OS X and iOS are getting a little stale and needs some major new features. At the very minimum you would think Apple would finally allow multiple users accounts on iOS especially for iPads where you might have several people sharing one but with different email accounts and apps.
I know you state that you aren't advocating change for changes sake alone, but that's pretty much what your entire comment says.
The only feature you mention is user accounts on the iPad, but that seems both unworkable and awkward to me. The device is intended to be used by one person, the entire OS is set up that way as is the hardware.
I think people asking for multiple user accounts in iOS is similar to users asking for a second steering wheel in the back seat of every car. It might indeed be handy for those times when Dad falls asleep at the wheel and threatens to kill the family, but it sort of goes against the whole concept of "car" and "driving," and cannot be accomplished without a huge wasting of resources.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy
What could he "steal"? An idea? With totally different code it's not as tho anything in iOS could be interchanged with Android and vice-versa.
He's an idea guy. He's the guy that thought up a lot of the ideas that became iOS.
Inside his head, are all the ideas they've been kicking around for improving iOS for the next few years also. Who knows what they are?
My thoughts exactly. I emailed Tim Cook and reminded him that Steve wasn't considered likable either. This decision will not bode well for the company, and I expect to see him make waves elsewhere in the industry.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gazoobee
... Jony Ive knows nothign about software.
...
That is a valid concern but he is likely smart enough to stay out of areas that are not his strengths. My worry is that he fancies himself the next Steve Jobs and will want to make decisions across the board. That didn't work so well for Forstall.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wurm5150
He does use software to design hardware..
How is that relevant?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gazoobee
If this is true (the firing), it's still bad news. Everyone knows Forestall was a bit of a jerk, that's not a good reason to let him go and ...
I don't believe it anyway as it doesn't explain why he cashed out all his shares a while ago does it? He expected to be fired? He asked to be fired?
Could be a combination of both. But I believe the firing is more than about being a jerk or about messing up on maps. Look at the heading of their press release: "Apple Announces Changes to Increase Collaboration Across Hardware, Software & Services"
It is about being able to integrate software and hardware. They can't do that effectively when Ive and Forstall cannot work together. I can work with jerks, but I cannot work with intransigent nice guys who will say one thing and do another, or will not take responsibility for screw-ups. And there have been copious software screw-ups, including but not limited to Maps. There are good reasons to question their software QA, just as is the case at Google and Microsoft too. I can remember a time when new software releases were not so laden with fundamental but also easily discovered bugs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wurm5150
He does use software to design hardware..
His new additional job isn't software engineering, it's user interface. He is a an Industrial Designer but a DESIGNER none the less.
First, UI is not just about design. It is much deeper and broader. Second, industrial design and software design share only one thing in common: the word design. To say that he is a designer and is therefore qualified to lead user interface is - I am sorry to say - simply ignorant. I am saying Ive is not going to do great (he will if he is an adviser), but I can tell you there are software people at Apple who are quietly worried.
I believe this re-org can and will work. But I also believe that the reason for it will be the rise of Craig Federighi, and another software star. Or perhaps, they can lure back Bertrand Serlet.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil
Probably because it wasn't.
Do you know anyone else who led the team that created iOS and who is now free to go work for Google and give them directly what they've previously just stolen?
And that's ignoring the loss to Apple itself.
Sh!t. Why didn't Cook think of this before letting him go?
Seriously, if he was fired/pushed out, Cook probably determined that the harm he was doing and was capable of doing internally outweighed the benefits of having him there and the harm he is capable of doing externally.
Un-seriously, maybe he is some sort of Trojan Horse/Manchurian Candidate heading up to Mountain View. Or maybe he truly is the future CEO of Apple, Inc. and this begins his time in exile from the company.
Originally Posted by Gatorguy
What could he "steal"? An idea? With totally different code it's not as tho anything in iOS could be interchanged with Android and vice-versa.
I'm gonna go ahead and ignore the obvious point of your post—
"Of course," he says, respectfully bowing a little.
—of course (I reply, returning the compliment), and mention that, while operationally Android is far inferior and cannot replace iOS in regard to usability, it can sure be installed on the same hardware.
"But that doesn't address my point."
Again, I'm purposely ignoring it. I know that you have to hold that position for whatever reason, and I'll just leave it at that. We already know the truth.
Quote:
Originally Posted by drblank
... Actually, putting both iOS and OS X team under the same guy actually makes sense since they have to kind of worth towards the same goal.
I keep hearing this comment about Ive "being put in charge of both groups," but as a former designer I can say with some authority that being good at 3D design or Industrial design does not in any way translate to being good at 2D design or indeed, software design. They are different disciplines with entirely different skill sets.
You only have to look at Ive's horrible taste in clothes, houses, and almost everything else to see that being an uber-cool industrial designer doesn't give him blanket authority to design the rest of the world as well. At best, Ive could possibly choose between two competing options on the basis of his personal taste alone, but the future design of iOS 6 is now up to Federighi, and whomever is sort of second in command behind Forestall, not Ive.
The executive shuffling is just about who is overseeing things. I would be far more comfortable if they would announce who it is exactly that is going to step into Forestall's shoes in terms of design and design management. Who is actually going to do the work?
So far we actually don't know who's "taking over" from Scott Forestall.
Originally Posted by Gazoobee
I keep hearing this comment about Ive "being put in charge of both groups," but as a former designer I can say with some authority that being good at 3D design or Industrial design does not in any way translate to being good at 2D design or indeed, software design. They are different disciplines with entirely different skill sets.
Exactly, UI design ? hardware design. BUT, I'm confident that he knows this. I doubt he'd take this responsibility if he didn't either A. think it would be cool to learn how to do properly or B. have already learned how to go about this sort of thing.
Or even C. not think there is anyone else out there that could do it credit.
Not knowing how to write code doesn't mean you can't see if a bit of software/app is simple to use and not bloated.
In industrial design, like architecture, and likewise software "less is more" and Jony Ive is a master of the first so, why not, the last?
As to "skeumorphic" - it's like having plastic flowers in the Villa Savoie.
Originally Posted by Strix
As to "skeumorphic" - it's like having plastic flowers in the Villa Savoie.
Not really. Not at all, in fact. The alternative is having painted pieces of straight, unworked steel with the word "flower" written on each in pen. You think THAT is better? Look at Windows 8.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Strix
To say "Jony Ive knows nothing about software" is such an asinine and ignorant remark.
Not knowing how to write code doesn't mean you can't see if a bit of software/app is simple to use and not bloated.
I am afraid it is your remark that is ignorant.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Strix
In industrial design, like architecture, and likewise software "less is more" and Jony Ive is a master of the first so, why not, the last?
As to "skeumorphic" - it's like having plastic flowers in the Villa Savoie.
I am afraid you're making your ignorant statements based on reading blogs and associated comments.