I'm sure the people quietly celebrated when Steve Jobs let Apple in the 1980's and look where they went afterwards. Apple is now on the path of a slow but dramatic decline.
My hope is that you will not stick around to see how wrong you are.
and now guys.... who is going to take the stage for iOS next time ?
Federighi ? His style is ok for OSX demos, but for iOS ?
Maybe he can convince me.
...Or Cook in general wanted to drag iOS away from the freaks corner.
Forstall looks very young and kind of a hipster. It could well be that Cook wants to address different segments in a better way. Forstall may not be guy to impress 50+y olds.
Still I see Forstalls departure a great loss for Apple. On the other hand who am I to advise Cook what to do. He should have and surely has a plan and knows better than all of us what to do.
Skeuomorphic design can sometimes go a bit too far, a perfect example being the stitching and torn pages on iCal. It's excessive and unnecessary. I don't mind the notebook feel however on Notes. Either way, the user should have some degree of customizability options depending on their preference. Overall though I personally like a consistent UI design and feel.
We won't mention iBooks and how that UI is "borrowed" from another designer/developer.
The distaste I have over the iOS maps thing is that Apple decided to remove applications from my device (add YouTube to this list). That isn't cool with me. It's doubly uncool that it's an unfinished product and doesn't have some of the same features as Google Maps.
Truly, there's no need to apologize for it. An apology is for the most part worthless. Just fix it and get out the fix quickly. I see Forstall as the type of guy that doesn't apologize for anything regardless, and with Cook being a guy who is apparently driven by a lot of passion, I can see how their personalities conflict.
This is a ridiculous comment. The "coders" aren't necessarily the ones who do the work. Machines can "code," and "coding" isn't necessarily even a creative task.
What's important are the ideas not the code and Forestall came up with or helped to come up with, most of the ideas behind iOS.
You fairly obviously have a HUGE bias towards "coders" as being some kind of central figures in the creation of things. They aren't.
The best "coders" couldn't design a useful UI to save their lives.
Since you repeatedly put "coders" and "coding" in quotes, I'm curious what you mean by statements like:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gazoobee
The "coders" aren't necessarily the ones who do the work.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gazoobee
and "coding" isn't necessarily even a creative task.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gazoobee
You fairly obviously have a HUGE bias towards "coders" as being some kind of central figures in the creation of things. They aren't.
So they're saying he was fired at short notice and didn't leave of his own accord. I don't think it's right to automatically assume he was the problem in all this though. He might just have tried to stand his ground on certain issues. We shouldn't label someone an asshole until we know why people think of them that way. It might turn out to be the case that the people being left in control are the assholes. No matter which it is, it's never good when talented staff leave a company. There's a reason he has been at Apple for 15 years.
Imagine if he went to work at Google and brought his knowledge of iOS to help improve Android.
You know, I was also thinking in that direction.
Tim hasn't got Jobs' confidence. In his trial CEO stints, he had Jobs to look over his shoulder. Now he is on his own. And i think he is not too comfortable in that role. His iMap apology was overdone, and he broke Apple's regular product refresh cycle for iPad to steal the thunder from Google and MS, even if he had iPad Mini already. Job's Apple didn't care about what others were doing. Job's Apple was doing their thing and let others worry about what Apple is doing.
I'm wondering if Tim really is Jobs' choice, or was he board's choice. I know that Jobs did (officially) welcome Tim's election, but that can also mean that he didn't want to create bigger problems (than his departure already created), by opposing Tim's election. First of, he loved Apple, and second, he had other things to deal with.
Who can say that Scott wasn't, actually, Jobs' intimate choice for succession? And that Tim wasn't feeling threatened by Scott to such level that he used first available excuse to cut him? Or that Scott didn't try to stage some sort of coup in order to claim his "birthright"? Even the fact that Tim made Scott his advisor might mean nothing else than "keep friends close, and enemies closer".
This is not only about who is douche, this is about who is best for Apple. Jobs was douche and hardly loved by everyone, but he was capable. Only time will tell if Tim is the best for the Apple, or is he here to protect interests of specific group of people (someone Jobs was capable of keeping in check), which are not Apple's best interests... and if Scott was not sacked for trying to prevent that from happening..?
Thank god Ive is now in charge as iOS was going down the pan. At least with a European in charge there should be much better design standards and quality control. It doesn't matter about whether or not he is a software designer it matters that he knows about design after all he made Apple what it is today, in many ways just as much as Jobs did.
Just when I thought the click-whoring over ‘mapgate’ was dying down…
Oh, for the love of Pete!
---
For the record, if anything like all this rampant speculation even happened, I hope he did refuse to sign the maps apology letter. Steve should never have supplied free bumpers in the wake of ‘antenna-gate’ either.
Antenna-gate was made up bullshit; the new maps rock.
Go whine to your mom about a melted looking bridge, wussies!
What is wrong with you?
Look, the maps app is crap, and it should never have been released. Apple should have worked with Google to bring turn by turn to the Google maps app on the iPhone, we know they are capable since Android has it. The Apple app will probably never have street view, and will never be as accurate as Google maps. Apple isn't a mapping company, and never will be.
And the iPhone 4 has an antenna problem. It's real, I've seen it happen myself - it happens whenever you bridge the case sections, which you do if you're holding the phone to your ear normally.
Apple makes some great stuff. But they're not perfect, they screw up sometimes. And these two things were big ones. Suck it up, and accept that.
So does Ive now have software teams reporting to him? His bio in Apple's website says he provides "leadership and direction". Do these HI teams actually report to him or do they report to Federighi and just consult with Ive?
My thoughts exactly. I emailed Tim Cook and reminded him that Steve wasn't considered likable either. This decision will not bode well for the company, and I expect to see him make waves elsewhere in the industry.
SPECULATION: But he also could have been fired because he misrepresented the readiness of Maps and/or Siri to Cook and other higher ups. He might have been gambling that his engineers could fix the shortcomings he was well aware of in time for the scheduled release date.
Or he might have had a little too much disdain for the customers and thought that Maps was good enough for them.
Or he might just be a destructive presence within the corporate culture and as others have said "wore out his welcome."
Or he might have taken to playing Die Antwoord at 120 dB in the engineering lab all day long resulting in engineers involuntarily skeuomorphing.
Whatever the real reason, we'll most likely never know.
First, Apple has a deep bench. Having Forstall gone is not a big deal. Jon Ive is an extremely talented guy. Much of Apple's success is marketing and superior design/human interaction. Having Ive a bigger say in design of Apple's products is actually good news. The only issue with Forstall is he knows too much about the future products of Apple. Cook is offering him "big money" to ask him to stay for a short while so that the sensitive info that may have may no longer be sensitive. Don't cry for Forstall...he will land in some place to be a CEO of his company. I don't think that he wants to work for Google or Samsung.
The people at Apple might be celebrating, but as an Apple user and stock owner, I wonder where Forstall will head next and how successful the software he develops there will be at competing with Apple iOS.
Not at all, unless he gets people he worked with to go with him. Given that they (from all accounts) hate him, not likely.
Look, the maps app is crap, and it should never have been released. Apple should have worked with Google to bring turn by turn to the Google maps app on the iPhone, we know they are capable since Android has it. The Apple app will probably never have street view, and will never be as accurate as Google maps. Apple isn't a mapping company, and never will be.
And the iPhone 4 has an antenna problem. It's real, I've seen it happen myself - it happens whenever you bridge the case sections, which you do if you're holding the phone to your ear normally.
Apple makes some great stuff. But they're not perfect, they screw up sometimes. And these two things were big ones. Suck it up, and accept that.
Apple maps is not crap, but it was not ready. iPhone 4 definitely had an antenna problem (my wife and I both had ones, unusable as phones). iOS has many, many issues (the notification system is abysmal, and has been from the beginning), and Forstall has not done enough to address them.
Look at it a bit deeper. A decision like this is not made overnight.
Gosh, he didn't need to wait the official shipment date of a product to know the Maps won't work well! In May 2012, Forstall cashes in 95% of his Apple shares, worth some $36 million or so. Hey, 95%! What that tells you? He's leaving the boat.
iOS 6 features were nailed down long before the product was shipped, and the decision to switch from Google maps to Apple's own was a strategic move from the very beginning of iOS 6 development plans, a calculated risk and the CEO has blessed it. Perhaps even enticed it.
Now, why would Forestall apologise for the 'blunder' of Maps? First of all, only CEO of the company has to apologise publicly, he or she is company's public voice -- not some VP no one knows about.
But as a VP and a head of the iOS development, I bet Forstall was against such a move at that stage of the iOS 6 application development -- because he knew that for such application to function well a huge engineering infrastructure is required, which Apple has only partially completed. He'd need pushing engineers from different depts.
So what the consequences will be? Knowing it, and being a perfectionist himself, he probably didn't support such decision -- it's his department that must take responsibility and shame for company's own strategic agenda. So he knew that well ahead, and prepared himself.
The whole MAP app thing is a smokescreen, a total bs. And that decision could be just one of many company compromises that, in his mind, should never happen. Perhaps he is of SJ's own mentality -- and wanted to push other departments too to deliver results in time, like SJ would, and refused to be 'calm and peaceful'. So perhaps, he decided to stop pushing, stop arguing in the new climate of the company, and turn another page in his life.
Forstall himself weights now as much as some countries' premium lottery jackpot! He can do whatever he wishes. I wish him luck.
Comments
My hope is that you will not stick around to see how wrong you are.
and now guys.... who is going to take the stage for iOS next time ?
Federighi ? His style is ok for OSX demos, but for iOS ?
Maybe he can convince me.
...Or Cook in general wanted to drag iOS away from the freaks corner.
Forstall looks very young and kind of a hipster. It could well be that Cook wants to address different segments in a better way. Forstall may not be guy to impress 50+y olds.
Still I see Forstalls departure a great loss for Apple. On the other hand who am I to advise Cook what to do. He should have and surely has a plan and knows better than all of us what to do.
We won't mention iBooks and how that UI is "borrowed" from another designer/developer.
The distaste I have over the iOS maps thing is that Apple decided to remove applications from my device (add YouTube to this list). That isn't cool with me. It's doubly uncool that it's an unfinished product and doesn't have some of the same features as Google Maps.
Truly, there's no need to apologize for it. An apology is for the most part worthless. Just fix it and get out the fix quickly. I see Forstall as the type of guy that doesn't apologize for anything regardless, and with Cook being a guy who is apparently driven by a lot of passion, I can see how their personalities conflict.
though forstall is no jobs, apple met with quiet jubilation after jobs left apple. jobs was PIA at apple at the time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gazoobee
This is a ridiculous comment. The "coders" aren't necessarily the ones who do the work. Machines can "code," and "coding" isn't necessarily even a creative task.
What's important are the ideas not the code and Forestall came up with or helped to come up with, most of the ideas behind iOS.
You fairly obviously have a HUGE bias towards "coders" as being some kind of central figures in the creation of things. They aren't.
The best "coders" couldn't design a useful UI to save their lives.
Since you repeatedly put "coders" and "coding" in quotes, I'm curious what you mean by statements like:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gazoobee
The "coders" aren't necessarily the ones who do the work.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gazoobee
and "coding" isn't necessarily even a creative task.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gazoobee
You fairly obviously have a HUGE bias towards "coders" as being some kind of central figures in the creation of things. They aren't.
Originally Posted by anakin1992
…jobs was PIA at apple at the time.
What?
You know, I was also thinking in that direction.
Tim hasn't got Jobs' confidence. In his trial CEO stints, he had Jobs to look over his shoulder. Now he is on his own. And i think he is not too comfortable in that role. His iMap apology was overdone, and he broke Apple's regular product refresh cycle for iPad to steal the thunder from Google and MS, even if he had iPad Mini already. Job's Apple didn't care about what others were doing. Job's Apple was doing their thing and let others worry about what Apple is doing.
I'm wondering if Tim really is Jobs' choice, or was he board's choice. I know that Jobs did (officially) welcome Tim's election, but that can also mean that he didn't want to create bigger problems (than his departure already created), by opposing Tim's election. First of, he loved Apple, and second, he had other things to deal with.
Who can say that Scott wasn't, actually, Jobs' intimate choice for succession? And that Tim wasn't feeling threatened by Scott to such level that he used first available excuse to cut him? Or that Scott didn't try to stage some sort of coup in order to claim his "birthright"? Even the fact that Tim made Scott his advisor might mean nothing else than "keep friends close, and enemies closer".
This is not only about who is douche, this is about who is best for Apple. Jobs was douche and hardly loved by everyone, but he was capable. Only time will tell if Tim is the best for the Apple, or is he here to protect interests of specific group of people (someone Jobs was capable of keeping in check), which are not Apple's best interests... and if Scott was not sacked for trying to prevent that from happening..?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo63
skeuomorphic design
What like contacts and ical. Please....
Thank god Ive is now in charge as iOS was going down the pan. At least with a European in charge there should be much better design standards and quality control. It doesn't matter about whether or not he is a software designer it matters that he knows about design after all he made Apple what it is today, in many ways just as much as Jobs did.
Originally Posted by macondo
They realized iOS and OSX need converge instead of diverge.
There is no possible explanation that you can give that would explain why you could believe this.
Go away.
What is wrong with you?
Look, the maps app is crap, and it should never have been released. Apple should have worked with Google to bring turn by turn to the Google maps app on the iPhone, we know they are capable since Android has it. The Apple app will probably never have street view, and will never be as accurate as Google maps. Apple isn't a mapping company, and never will be.
And the iPhone 4 has an antenna problem. It's real, I've seen it happen myself - it happens whenever you bridge the case sections, which you do if you're holding the phone to your ear normally.
Apple makes some great stuff. But they're not perfect, they screw up sometimes. And these two things were big ones. Suck it up, and accept that.
Originally Posted by DarkVader
Look, the maps app is crap, and it should never have been released.
Wrong.
Apple should have worked with Google to bring turn by turn to the Google maps app on the iPhone…
Google wouldn't let Apple have that.
The Apple app will probably never have street view…
Good.
…and will never be as accurate as Google maps.
Said of Google, by Yahoo!, in 2004.
Apple isn't a mapping company, and never will be.
Can't wait to laugh at this in a year.
And the iPhone 4 has an antenna problem.
Nope.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slang4Art
My thoughts exactly. I emailed Tim Cook and reminded him that Steve wasn't considered likable either. This decision will not bode well for the company, and I expect to see him make waves elsewhere in the industry.
SPECULATION: But he also could have been fired because he misrepresented the readiness of Maps and/or Siri to Cook and other higher ups. He might have been gambling that his engineers could fix the shortcomings he was well aware of in time for the scheduled release date.
Or he might have had a little too much disdain for the customers and thought that Maps was good enough for them.
Or he might just be a destructive presence within the corporate culture and as others have said "wore out his welcome."
Or he might have taken to playing Die Antwoord at 120 dB in the engineering lab all day long resulting in engineers involuntarily skeuomorphing.
Whatever the real reason, we'll most likely never know.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rsdofny
First, Apple has a deep bench. Having Forstall gone is not a big deal. Jon Ive is an extremely talented guy. Much of Apple's success is marketing and superior design/human interaction. Having Ive a bigger say in design of Apple's products is actually good news. The only issue with Forstall is he knows too much about the future products of Apple. Cook is offering him "big money" to ask him to stay for a short while so that the sensitive info that may have may no longer be sensitive. Don't cry for Forstall...he will land in some place to be a CEO of his company. I don't think that he wants to work for Google or Samsung.
so true
Quote:
Originally Posted by grover432
The people at Apple might be celebrating, but as an Apple user and stock owner, I wonder where Forstall will head next and how successful the software he develops there will be at competing with Apple iOS.
Not at all, unless he gets people he worked with to go with him. Given that they (from all accounts) hate him, not likely.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkVader
What is wrong with you?
Look, the maps app is crap, and it should never have been released. Apple should have worked with Google to bring turn by turn to the Google maps app on the iPhone, we know they are capable since Android has it. The Apple app will probably never have street view, and will never be as accurate as Google maps. Apple isn't a mapping company, and never will be.
And the iPhone 4 has an antenna problem. It's real, I've seen it happen myself - it happens whenever you bridge the case sections, which you do if you're holding the phone to your ear normally.
Apple makes some great stuff. But they're not perfect, they screw up sometimes. And these two things were big ones. Suck it up, and accept that.
Apple maps is not crap, but it was not ready. iPhone 4 definitely had an antenna problem (my wife and I both had ones, unusable as phones). iOS has many, many issues (the notification system is abysmal, and has been from the beginning), and Forstall has not done enough to address them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flaneur
My hope is that you will not stick around to see how wrong you are.
Apple did VERY well for a few years after Jobs' departure. Everyone seems to forget that.
Look at it a bit deeper. A decision like this is not made overnight.
Gosh, he didn't need to wait the official shipment date of a product to know the Maps won't work well! In May 2012, Forstall cashes in 95% of his Apple shares, worth some $36 million or so.
Hey, 95%! What that tells you? He's leaving the boat.
iOS 6 features were nailed down long before the product was shipped, and the decision to switch from Google maps to Apple's own was a strategic move from the very beginning of iOS 6 development plans, a calculated risk and the CEO has blessed it. Perhaps even enticed it.
Now, why would Forestall apologise for the 'blunder' of Maps? First of all, only CEO of the company has to apologise publicly, he or she is company's public voice -- not some VP no one knows about.
But as a VP and a head of the iOS development, I bet Forstall was against such a move at that stage of the iOS 6 application development -- because he knew that for such application to function well a huge engineering infrastructure is required, which Apple has only partially completed. He'd need pushing engineers from different depts.
So what the consequences will be? Knowing it, and being a perfectionist himself, he probably didn't support such decision -- it's his department that must take responsibility and shame for company's own strategic agenda. So he knew that well ahead, and prepared himself.
The whole MAP app thing is a smokescreen, a total bs. And that decision could be just one of many company compromises that, in his mind, should never happen. Perhaps he is of SJ's own mentality -- and wanted to push other departments too to deliver results in time, like SJ would, and refused to be 'calm and peaceful'. So perhaps, he decided to stop pushing, stop arguing in the new climate of the company, and turn another page in his life.
Forstall himself weights now as much as some countries' premium lottery jackpot! He can do whatever he wishes. I wish him luck.
Tim Cook is ten times any of the executives that were in charge after Jobs left.