As to "skeumorphic" - it's like having plastic flowers in the Villa Savoie.
Sigh ...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil
Not really. Not at all, in fact. The alternative is having painted pieces of straight, unworked steel with the word "flower" written on each in pen. You think THAT is better? Look at Windows 8.
What is better is subjective. But people have been reading about skeumorphism lately and are jumping on the bandwagon of trashing it, without truly understanding UI design. It is not as simple as less is more vs. skeumorphism.
Do you know anyone else who led the team that created iOS and who is now free to go work for Google and give them directly what they've previously just stolen?
And that's ignoring the loss to Apple itself.
There are quite a few former Apple engineers out there who have worked on iOS. But no question Forstall knows the future of iOS better than anyone. This is why he will remain as an "adviser" for a period of time. Mansfield is developing technology that will deprogram Forstall's memory. But seriously, the adviser role is euphemism for "shut up and let us change all the keys, or the blueprint".
What is better is subjective. But people have been reading about skeumorphism lately and are jumping on the bandwagon of trashing it, without truly understanding UI design. It is not as simple as less is more vs. skeumorphism.
Ah, what is most usable is different in different situations. At times it's best to have zero skeuomorphism. At times it's best to be as skeuomorphic as possible.
The all or nothing belief is the only really wrong answer, on both ends!
Originally Posted by Harbinger
This is why he will remain as an "adviser" for a period of time.
If all the "bitterness" and "hatred" in these stories is true, that doesn't sound like something that will ever happen. In fact, it sounds more like he'd jump to a competitor.
I take your point, but if the bits of steel are cut by Frank Stella or someone of his ilk or skill I can live with it. A "stitched" address mimicking some aircraft seat make kitsch look aesthetic.
Harbinger
Again I take your point. Industrial design (and I have worked alongside one of the best known) is not dissimilar to architecture. You are, in architecture, at the top of a pyramid of experts who are all trying to supply the client with what he wants and which will work. That leader has to make judgements on each of the contributions and decide which combinations make the best solution. I, personally, think that Jony Ive can make those judgements.
Imagine if he went to work at Google and brought his knowledge of iOS to help improve Android.
Yeah, 'cos fake stitched leather and other lame skeuomorphic effects are just what Android needs.
He wouldn't be hired as a designer. Although Forstall might have been in charge of the design team doing those UIs, he wouldn't be the one drawing them.
How short is "short"? Because he got rid of most of his stock a long while ago.
Those things might not have been related though - Tim Cook sold shares round that time too. Plus, there were no signs of impending departure at WWDC in June. So 4 months at the longest.
you seem to have little or no understanding of the fact that the removal of Scott was a good thing.
There are stories about Rubinstein not liking Forstall and Tony Fadell leaving partly due to Forstall and of course a software engineer called him an asshole and now we hear about clashes with Ive and Mansfield but this info could be coming from people wanting to get rid of him and it could be overblown. How many arguments, how heated, how often?
We hear these kind of stories a few times and the genuine reasons turn out to be different from the rumours.
Inside his head, are all the ideas they've been kicking around for improving iOS for the next few years also. Who knows what they are?
That's right, Forstall goes all the way back to NeXT. You don't work on a project like that for over 15 years without intimately knowing where it came from and where it's going. Although he was in the audience, Serlet is out too. Now we get Federighi and it seems they might have updated the bio page already:
"Craig oversees the development of iOS, Mac OS X and Apple's common operating system engineering teams."
He also goes back to NeXT but there was a huge gap in between. Maybe he'll bring new ideas to the table and being in charge of both iOS and Mac OS could mean good things. Time will tell. I will miss Scott's presentations though.
I keep hearing this comment about Ive "being put in charge of both groups," but as a former designer I can say with some authority that being good at 3D design or Industrial design does not in any way translate to being good at 2D design or indeed, software design. They are differentdisciplines with entirely differentskill sets.
You only have to look at Ive's horrible taste in clothes, houses, and almost everything else to see that being an uber-cool industrial designer doesn't give him blanket authority to design the rest of the world as well. At best, Ive could possibly choose between two competing options on the basis of his personal taste alone, but the future design of iOS 6 is now up to Federighi, and whomever is sort of second in command behind Forestall, not Ive.
This from the guy who wanted to see plastic on the back of the iPad mini!!!
Be sure and tell me if I have you confused with someone else who doesn't get what Ive is doing.
As for everything else, all I know is that the v-neck t-shirt is made of some good fabric, great color for him, and way better than the black pajama shirt with stripes that Mr. Forstall wore. And a Bentley isn't a bad choice if you have to commute down the 280 every day.
A number of employees at Apple's iOS and OS X teams only learned the news minutes before the press release was released to the public on Monday, and engineers were "caught off guard."
Regular mundane employees and engineers didn't know a week ahead of time that one of the top 5 executives in Apple was going to lose his job? What a crazy concept....
My thoughts exactly. I emailed Tim Cook and reminded him that Steve wasn't considered likable either. This decision will not bode well for the company, and I expect to see him make waves elsewhere in the industry.
And Tim should listen to you because... you knew Steve Jobs and Scott Forstall better than he did?
I'm sure the people quietly celebrated when Steve Jobs let Apple in the 1980's and look where they went afterwards. Apple is now on the path of a slow but dramatic decline.
I'm wondering if Mansfield's departure and even Bertand Serlet (now that there are rumors of his return) and Jony's alleged consideration of moving back to the UK were all connected to Forstall and Cook saw what was going on and decided to take action.
I've seen this exact kind of thing happen in organizations before (multiple times). There's one person that seems to protected, untouchable, not going anywhere...and they are, in effect, a cancer on the organization and others get to the point where they cannot or will not take any more and start leaving (or threatening to leave.) Sometimes the leadership sees what is happening and fixes the problem. Other times it goes on long after the damage has been done.
It is starting to sound a lot like Forstall was a big problem.
For all that he may have done to make OS X and iOS a success*, it won't counter the problems if he's really a cancer on the organization.
Might be that Scott learned the wrong lessons from Steve or had all of the asshole a not enough of the vision, style and taste. It might also be that Jobs was blind to Scott's shortcomings and did Forstall a disservice by protecting him and now allowing him to grow out of those.
*And we shouldn't assume that someone else could not have done just as well (or better) while still working and playing well with others.
1) Someone had to go between the OSX and iOS teams. Clearly they are duplicating purpose. If OS X gets a facelift, then iOS seems to get little done. For iOS 6 the mail team added a "rule" - i.e. the VIP rule. Thats about a man days effort, if that. The other additions were Maps, Passbook, and the Phone app, podcasts and videos etc: nothing shared in common with OS X. The other teams - i.e. AppKit - were OS X focused, little was added to iOS 6. They need to integrate the OS to stop this see-saw in effort.
2) If they do integrate the teams there can be only one real SVP to rule them all. One or the other. Forstall was positioning himself as the leader, but was disliked ( Craig is not really - in my opinion - proved himself either but he is the leader).
3) There is already a software design team. They have good guys - check out Bas Ording and his patents. Steve Jobs used to effectively run that team - he was the final decision maker on design, on go or no go. The actual manager of software design is just a people manager. ( Nobody here is a coder by the way). Forstall probably took over Jobs' roll, it didn't work, so now Ive gets it. Ive won't be doing the design - if I am right - he will be saying no, or yes, to design, and opposing skeuomorphism in all its forms.
I'm sure the people quietly celebrated when Steve Jobs let Apple in the 1980's and look where they went afterwards. Apple is now on the path of a slow but dramatic decline.
I'm sure the people quietly celebrated when Steve Jobs let Apple in the 1980's and look where they went afterwards. Apple is now on the path of a slow but dramatic decline.
If Forstall has the same level of talent, vision and style as Jobs not to mention the motivational traits...then you may be right. It's hard to know if any of that is true at this point.
Noncompete clause..(If he doesn't have one he still has a nondisclosure agreement)....
I believe he could argue that is invalid if he was "fired" as they can't prevent him from making a living within his field of expertise. A noncompete usually only is there to prevent you from getting knowledge, leaving, then competing directly against the company you left.
Not really. Not at all, in fact. The alternative is having painted pieces of straight, unworked steel with the word "flower" written on each in pen. You think THAT is better? Look at Windows 8.
Tallest, didn't you read the inter-cloister scroll?
Comments
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigBillyGoatGruff
Or maybe he truly is the future CEO of Apple, Inc. and this begins his time in exile from the company.
He has to journey up a mountain top with nothing but a goat and a pack of dry rations
Quote:
Originally Posted by Strix
As to "skeumorphic" - it's like having plastic flowers in the Villa Savoie.
Sigh ...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil
Not really. Not at all, in fact. The alternative is having painted pieces of straight, unworked steel with the word "flower" written on each in pen. You think THAT is better? Look at Windows 8.
What is better is subjective. But people have been reading about skeumorphism lately and are jumping on the bandwagon of trashing it, without truly understanding UI design. It is not as simple as less is more vs. skeumorphism.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil
Probably because it wasn't.
Do you know anyone else who led the team that created iOS and who is now free to go work for Google and give them directly what they've previously just stolen?
And that's ignoring the loss to Apple itself.
There are quite a few former Apple engineers out there who have worked on iOS. But no question Forstall knows the future of iOS better than anyone. This is why he will remain as an "adviser" for a period of time. Mansfield is developing technology that will deprogram Forstall's memory. But seriously, the adviser role is euphemism for "shut up and let us change all the keys, or the blueprint".
Originally Posted by Harbinger
What is better is subjective. But people have been reading about skeumorphism lately and are jumping on the bandwagon of trashing it, without truly understanding UI design. It is not as simple as less is more vs. skeumorphism.
Ah, what is most usable is different in different situations. At times it's best to have zero skeuomorphism. At times it's best to be as skeuomorphic as possible.
The all or nothing belief is the only really wrong answer, on both ends!
Originally Posted by Harbinger
This is why he will remain as an "adviser" for a period of time.
If all the "bitterness" and "hatred" in these stories is true, that doesn't sound like something that will ever happen. In fact, it sounds more like he'd jump to a competitor.
Tallest Skil
I take your point, but if the bits of steel are cut by Frank Stella or someone of his ilk or skill I can live with it. A "stitched" address mimicking some aircraft seat make kitsch look aesthetic.
Harbinger
Again I take your point. Industrial design (and I have worked alongside one of the best known) is not dissimilar to architecture. You are, in architecture, at the top of a pyramid of experts who are all trying to supply the client with what he wants and which will work. That leader has to make judgements on each of the contributions and decide which combinations make the best solution. I, personally, think that Jony Ive can make those judgements.
He wouldn't be hired as a designer. Although Forstall might have been in charge of the design team doing those UIs, he wouldn't be the one drawing them.
Those things might not have been related though - Tim Cook sold shares round that time too. Plus, there were no signs of impending departure at WWDC in June. So 4 months at the longest.
There are stories about Rubinstein not liking Forstall and Tony Fadell leaving partly due to Forstall and of course a software engineer called him an asshole and now we hear about clashes with Ive and Mansfield but this info could be coming from people wanting to get rid of him and it could be overblown. How many arguments, how heated, how often?
We hear these kind of stories a few times and the genuine reasons turn out to be different from the rumours.
That's right, Forstall goes all the way back to NeXT. You don't work on a project like that for over 15 years without intimately knowing where it came from and where it's going. Although he was in the audience, Serlet is out too. Now we get Federighi and it seems they might have updated the bio page already:
http://www.apple.com/pr/bios/craig-federighi.html
"Craig oversees the development of iOS, Mac OS X and Apple's common operating system engineering teams."
He also goes back to NeXT but there was a huge gap in between. Maybe he'll bring new ideas to the table and being in charge of both iOS and Mac OS could mean good things. Time will tell. I will miss Scott's presentations though.
This from the guy who wanted to see plastic on the back of the iPad mini!!!
Be sure and tell me if I have you confused with someone else who doesn't get what Ive is doing.
As for everything else, all I know is that the v-neck t-shirt is made of some good fabric, great color for him, and way better than the black pajama shirt with stripes that Mr. Forstall wore. And a Bentley isn't a bad choice if you have to commute down the 280 every day.
The message of Ive is: Radical Minimalization.
First action: Removal of screen. It just disturbs the beautiful shape of the device.
2nd action: Removal of device. Ive thinks: Your hand is so beautiful that a rectangular device in it is just disturbing.
This will be his masterpiece.
I already miss Scott Forstall. OSX and iOS are HIS babies!
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider
A number of employees at Apple's iOS and OS X teams only learned the news minutes before the press release was released to the public on Monday, and engineers were "caught off guard."
Regular mundane employees and engineers didn't know a week ahead of time that one of the top 5 executives in Apple was going to lose his job? What a crazy concept....
Originally Posted by Marvin
Those things might not have been related though - Tim Cook sold shares round that time too.
Yeah, but 95% of his shares?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slang4Art
My thoughts exactly. I emailed Tim Cook and reminded him that Steve wasn't considered likable either. This decision will not bode well for the company, and I expect to see him make waves elsewhere in the industry.
And Tim should listen to you because... you knew Steve Jobs and Scott Forstall better than he did?
I'm wondering if Mansfield's departure and even Bertand Serlet (now that there are rumors of his return) and Jony's alleged consideration of moving back to the UK were all connected to Forstall and Cook saw what was going on and decided to take action.
I've seen this exact kind of thing happen in organizations before (multiple times). There's one person that seems to protected, untouchable, not going anywhere...and they are, in effect, a cancer on the organization and others get to the point where they cannot or will not take any more and start leaving (or threatening to leave.) Sometimes the leadership sees what is happening and fixes the problem. Other times it goes on long after the damage has been done.
It is starting to sound a lot like Forstall was a big problem.
For all that he may have done to make OS X and iOS a success*, it won't counter the problems if he's really a cancer on the organization.
Might be that Scott learned the wrong lessons from Steve or had all of the asshole a not enough of the vision, style and taste. It might also be that Jobs was blind to Scott's shortcomings and did Forstall a disservice by protecting him and now allowing him to grow out of those.
*And we shouldn't assume that someone else could not have done just as well (or better) while still working and playing well with others.
A few points:
1) Someone had to go between the OSX and iOS teams. Clearly they are duplicating purpose. If OS X gets a facelift, then iOS seems to get little done. For iOS 6 the mail team added a "rule" - i.e. the VIP rule. Thats about a man days effort, if that. The other additions were Maps, Passbook, and the Phone app, podcasts and videos etc: nothing shared in common with OS X. The other teams - i.e. AppKit - were OS X focused, little was added to iOS 6. They need to integrate the OS to stop this see-saw in effort.
2) If they do integrate the teams there can be only one real SVP to rule them all. One or the other. Forstall was positioning himself as the leader, but was disliked ( Craig is not really - in my opinion - proved himself either but he is the leader).
3) There is already a software design team. They have good guys - check out Bas Ording and his patents. Steve Jobs used to effectively run that team - he was the final decision maker on design, on go or no go. The actual manager of software design is just a people manager. ( Nobody here is a coder by the way). Forstall probably took over Jobs' roll, it didn't work, so now Ive gets it. Ive won't be doing the design - if I am right - he will be saying no, or yes, to design, and opposing skeuomorphism in all its forms.
4) Maps and Siri to Eddy Cue - a very good move.
mostly good tidings, therefore.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Commodification
I'm sure the people quietly celebrated when Steve Jobs let Apple in the 1980's and look where they went afterwards. Apple is now on the path of a slow but dramatic decline.
Forstall is not Jobs, he's just a guy,
Quote:
Originally Posted by Commodification
I'm sure the people quietly celebrated when Steve Jobs let Apple in the 1980's and look where they went afterwards. Apple is now on the path of a slow but dramatic decline.
If Forstall has the same level of talent, vision and style as Jobs not to mention the motivational traits...then you may be right. It's hard to know if any of that is true at this point.
Forstall out, Browett out, and Ive taking on a bigger role, etc.
Ok.
Like, this isn't really a big deal. I've always kinda liked Forstall, but Ive is worth his weight in gold.
Good luck to Scott.
*shrugs*
Quote:
Originally Posted by hendrikBerlin
The message of Ive is: Radical Minimalization.
First action: Removal of screen. It just disturbs the beautiful shape of the device.
2nd action: Removal of device. Ive thinks: Your hand is so beautiful that a rectangular device in it is just disturbing.
Already been done:
http://www.theonion.com/articles/apple-claims-new-iphone-only-visible-to-most-loyal,2772/
Quote:
Originally Posted by haar
Noncompete clause..(If he doesn't have one he still has a nondisclosure agreement)....
I believe he could argue that is invalid if he was "fired" as they can't prevent him from making a living within his field of expertise. A noncompete usually only is there to prevent you from getting knowledge, leaving, then competing directly against the company you left.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil
Not really. Not at all, in fact. The alternative is having painted pieces of straight, unworked steel with the word "flower" written on each in pen. You think THAT is better? Look at Windows 8.
Tallest, didn't you read the inter-cloister scroll?
Dualism is dead.