You won't really get much argument from me on the unix programming model -- this is why I started using Macs in the first place (they are unix machines which are actually polished, so for laptops way better than linux boxes, for back end computing I did and still do use linux). On the other hand, Objective C is really quite ancient technology (admittedly with very nice libraries), C#/F# is the only really modern programming language supported by a major OS vendor. (I don't like IDEs because they don't support the unix model, btw, but my few experiments with VS seem to indicate that if I did like that kind of thing, that's the kind of thing I might like...)
I know Posix define the unix programming model, but I've taught we were talking about tools (Swiss army knife analogy) which come standard with the OS and Windows being the most anemic of them all is where my plastic scissors analogy comes from. Beside, how do you define modern programming language? C# is a late follower of the Smalltalk message passing paradigm mean to fill the gap with others "modern programming language" like Java and Objective-C, and .NET libraries still have infancy issue like breaking binary compatibility at each major release, so users need to install and maintain multiple concurrent version of .NET runtime library for running any software. BTW only Apple can pretend to have a unified IDE across all their products (Phone, Tablet and Desktop OS), Microsoft in another hand, with Windows 8, Windows RT, Windows Phone 7.8, Windows Phone 8 and the Xbox, got 5 distincts userland for developers to juggle with.
Also to the one poster that said they purchased a large number of Windows 7 licenses for future use, Microsoft does have a program that allows a user of any OS to down grade to a previous version of any supported OS. That being said, I see Windows 7 as being the new XP. I deal with several business that will be exercising the backward licensing option and have no interest in Windows 8.
If you are referring to my post I only bought 2 licenses as we are a small department and mostly Linux and Mac except for our accounting machines which run XP right now. I always build our Windows machines from scratch mostly because I want them to last. Although the high end Dells and HP are probably built really well I still prefer non proprietary components. I use only very high quality parts starting with Supermicro boards. Because I build them myself I always buy Windows OEM. Although I'm sure it is possible to buy Windows 8 OEM, I would prefer to install the OS I intend on using rather than install Windows 8 and then downgrade it as I suspect it leaves a lot of garbage behind which I would rather avoid. Like you I think Windows 7 will remain the standard for quite some time.
C#/F# is the only really modern programming language supported by a major OS vendor. (I don't like IDEs because they don't support the unix model, btw, but my few experiments with VS seem to indicate that if I did like that kind of thing, that's the kind of thing I might like...)
If you are referring to my post I only bought 2 licenses as we are a small department and mostly Linux and Mac except for our accounting machines which run XP right now. I always build our Windows machines from scratch mostly because I want them to last. Although the high end Dells and HP are probably built really well I still prefer non proprietary components. I use only very high quality parts starting with Supermicro boards. Because I build them myself I always buy Windows OEM. Although I'm sure it is possible to buy Windows 8 OEM, I would prefer to install the OS I intend on using rather than install Windows 8 and then downgrade it as I suspect it leaves a lot of garbage behind which I would rather avoid. Like you I think Windows 7 will remain the standard for quite some time.
I don't think you can downgrade a windows installation in any means other than a wipe and reinstall.
Go to Dell, look at alienware boxen, note that you get MUCH more bang for the buck from them then from the iMac. Unfortunately for you, clue must be bought separately.
On the last sentence, you lost the argument by making a personal attack.
Even then, I'm not convinced you even read the comment thoroughly before rejecting it. Among other things, often, included monitors with most desktop packages are TN rather than IPS. Then there's the fact that Windows machines come preinstalled with dread.
You're apparently right. Your comment is news to me though. One method requires a registry edit, two others require running third party software to set it up.
On the last sentence, you lost the argument by making a personal attack.
Even then, I'm not convinced you even read the comment thoroughly before rejecting it. Among other things, often, included monitors with most desktop packages are TN rather than IPS. Then there's the fact that Windows machines come preinstalled with dread.
I am sorry to have offended your delicate sensibilities, but the post I was responding to was clueless. As for "dread", I run linux on my PCs. With modern distros it installs in no time at all. I am typing this on a MBP, and have six iDevices within three feet of me, but Apple has never made competitive compute servers (needless to say, Dell is not the low cost vendor -- my point was that even relatively high markup PCs are much cheaper than comparable Macs).
I know Posix define the unix programming model, but I've taught we were talking about tools (Swiss army knife analogy) which come standard with the OS and Windows being the most anemic of them all is where my plastic scissors analogy comes from. Beside, how do you define modern programming language? C# is a late follower of the Smalltalk message passing paradigm mean to fill the gap with others "modern programming language" like Java and Objective-C, and .NET libraries still have infancy issue like breaking binary compatibility at each major release, so users need to install and maintain multiple concurrent version of .NET runtime library for running any software. BTW only Apple can pretend to have a unified IDE across all their products (Phone, Tablet and Desktop OS), Microsoft in another hand, with Windows 8, Windows RT, Windows Phone 7.8, Windows Phone 8 and the Xbox, got 5 distincts userland for developers to juggle with.
I am not going to get into a programming language debate, but C# is far superior to Java, and Objective-C is modern if you define "today" to be "November 23, 1986". Yes, they have garbage collection now. Whoopee! I have nothing against Apple's IDE, but Apple has historically made their tools harder to use, perhaps to keep out the riffraff, so VS is more pleasant to use.
Terrific another obscure framework with the ability to port to different platforms. Impressive. I could also program for iDevices in Adobe Flash but I'd rather use the tools that are specifically designed for the task at hand including a really nice simulator.
I am not going to get into a programming language debate, but C# is far superior to Java, and Objective-C is modern if you define "today" to be "November 23, 1986". Yes, they have garbage collection now. Whoopee! I have nothing against Apple's IDE, but Apple has historically made their tools harder to use, perhaps to keep out the riffraff, so VS is more pleasant to use.
It seam you're understanding of the history of programming languages is pretty narrowing to M$ VS only, calling C# a far superior language over anything else is baseless. The "modernity" of a programming language is not define by it's age but by its objects interaction paradigm and features. No sane developers taught about being a newborn language is a plus, every solid programming language need decades of refinement and proofing. Microsoft was only 30years late to trash their VB ugliness and to jump in the Smalltalk wagon.
In your other baseless claims, I'm really puzzled, do you really believe Windows' tools are easer to use than Apple ones? Wow, I think you're too young to have ever seen ResEdit, MPW or Hypercard. Besides, originally the discussion was about Tools and not IDE, now point me a good built-in tool on Windows? Anything like rsync, grep, awk, scp, built-in in Windows? NOPE!
I don't think you can downgrade a windows installation in any means other than a wipe and reinstall.
I have not investigated it. I assumed it was something like Windows 7 with XP mode. Since my licenses are always OEM I don't think I qualify for MS support such downgrading the license whether I have to wipe the disk or not. I'll be fine with the two extra Windows 7 licenses I have. Perhaps in three or four years they will release something worthwhile upgrading to. In the mean time this will hold me over.
I am sorry to have offended your delicate sensibilities, but the post I was responding to was clueless. As for "dread", I run linux on my PCs. With modern distros it installs in no time at all. I am typing this on a MBP, and have six iDevices within three feet of me, but Apple has never made competitive compute servers (needless to say, Dell is not the low cost vendor -- my point was that even relatively high markup PCs are much cheaper than comparable Macs).
Here we go again. The Windows apologist with no less than six iDevices within his reach plus a MBP. Why are you concerned with cheaper solutions when you obviously have more than a few thousand dollars worth of Apple gear? And since Windows and Linux are also your preferred platforms I would assume you have another few thousand dollars worth of servers and such. So why are we talking about choosing cheaper solutions? Mac people choose Mac because they like the hardware and OS integration and the machines are plenty powerful so that is not an issue. Even if they are slightly more expensive they have a very good value / cost ratio. You get what you pay for, like an Apple Store where you can go if you need any support and fantastic resale value. There are many other benefits to owning a Mac, but I'm preaching to the choir since you're a Mac guy too, right?
Terrific another obscure framework with the ability to port to different platforms. Impressive. I could also program for iDevices in Adobe Flash but I'd rather use the tools that are specifically designed for the task at hand including a really nice simulator.
Here we go again. The Windows apologist with no less than six iDevices within his reach plus a MBP. Why are you concerned with cheaper solutions when you obviously have more than a few thousand dollars worth of Apple gear? And since Windows and Linux are also your preferred platforms I would assume you have another few thousand dollars worth of servers and such. So why are we talking about choosing cheaper solutions? Mac people choose Mac because they like the hardware and OS integration and the machines are plenty powerful so that is not an issue. Even if they are slightly more expensive they have a very good value / cost ratio. You get what you pay for, like an Apple Store where you can go if you need any support and fantastic resale value. There are many other benefits to owning a Mac, but I'm preaching to the choir since you're a Mac guy too, right?
1. I am not a Windows apologist (I don't like windows much, but there is still lots of software only available for windows, sad to say).
2. I am talking about cheaper solutions because I do a LOT of computing (CPU/GPU, you name it). So, if I (or my funding agency ) have N dollars to spend, I can get many more cycles out of whitebox hardware than out of the aesthetically pleasing but expensive Apple kit. This argument does not apply for devices I have to hold in my hand several hours a day, and for iDevices, often drop on the floor -- they are very well built, and don't break.
3. Hardware-software integration: not sure what you mean, but if you mean that they work out of the box, that is certainly a factor. In general, Apple makes very good consumer products, which is presumably why they have high resale value. As you say, you are not going to get an argument here.
I am sorry to have offended your delicate sensibilities, but the post I was responding to was clueless.
You made zero response to any of the specific items stated, then went on to say they're clueless. It's a non-answer followed by a misdirection. We're all aware you can buy an x.x GHz computer from competition for a lot less, but value isn't always about counting gigahertz and gigabytes and dividing by money. There are other things that make the whole equation. As it is, I powered down an HP xw8x00 workstation earlier this year and do all my CAD/CAM work perfectly fine on an iMac. Even if some of it is through virtualization, it's just two or three apps, everything else is on OS X.
As for "dread", I run linux on my PCs. With modern distros it installs in no time at all. I am typing this on a MBP, and have six iDevices within three feet of me, but Apple has never made competitive compute servers (needless to say, Dell is not the low cost vendor -- my point was that even relatively high markup PCs are much cheaper than comparable Macs).
Apple really doesn't compete in the server space, that's kind of irrelevant. Yeah, they have the pancake server, but that's not intended for computation. I'd even say given the Mac Pro that they've effectively bowed out of the workstation market as well. So yeah, there's many places where you can't use Apple products.
I'm curious why you would own (or pretend to own) Apple products if you don't seem to think they're worth it. Something doesn't really add up.
It seam you're understanding of the history of programming languages is pretty narrowing to M$ VS only, calling C# a far superior language over anything else is baseless. The "modernity" of a programming language is not define by it's age but by its objects interaction paradigm and features. No sane developers taught about being a newborn language is a plus, every solid programming language need decades of refinement and proofing. Microsoft was only 30years late to trash their VB ugliness and to jump in the Smalltalk wagon.
In your other baseless claims, I'm really puzzled, do you really believe Windows' tools are easer to use than Apple ones? Wow, I think you're too young to have ever seen ResEdit, MPW or Hypercard. Besides, originally the discussion was about Tools and not IDE, now point me a good built-in tool on Windows? Anything like rsync, grep, awk, scp, built-in in Windows? NOPE!
1. If you read the rest of this thread, you will discover that I am not a fan of VS for my own actual work.
2. I know a little more about programming than you think (or than you do, sounds like) -- I have programmed using punch cards on an IBM-370 (Fortran, PL-I), to DEC-10, to VAXen, to LispMachines, to NeXT, to various Unixes, to Mac OS, to Linux, to OS X, programming various flavors of Lisp, C, Mathematica, Java, ML, awk, Python,Perl, etc, etc. Yes, I did use MPW, which left me greatly underwhelmed.
2a Hypercard, and its spawn AppleScript are not seriously maintained by Apple (although Python with AppleScript functionality is actually very nice -- doesn't come with the machine, though).
3. writing what are mostly scripts (since the library calls use up 99% of the CPU time) in C (objective or otherwise) is retarded -- you get code that takes a long time to write and a long time to debug, and doesn't run any faster. If you look at the MonoTouch page, you will see many comparisons of C# and Obj-C code, the former being about four times shorter than the latter.
3. About tools: who cares about what's built in (VS is not built in either...)? You can get all of those tools in ten minutes from the internet, generally for free, or even write them (in C# )in not much longer, since MS provides quite good libraries. And on the mac, every time I get a new machine I spend two days downloading the tools I need. So?
You made zero response to any of the specific items stated, then went on to say they're clueless. It's a non-answer followed by a misdirection. We're all aware you can buy an x.x GHz computer from competition for a lot less, but value isn't always about counting gigahertz and gigabytes and dividing by money. There are other things that make the whole equation. As it is, I powered down an HP xw8x00 workstation earlier this year and do all my CAD/CAM work perfectly fine on an iMac. Even if some of it is through virtualization, it's just two or three apps, everything else is on OS X.
Apple really doesn't compete in the server space, that's kind of irrelevant. Yeah, they have the pancake server, but that's not intended for computation. I'd even say given the Mac Pro that they've effectively bowed out of the workstation market as well. So yeah, there's many places where you can't use Apple products.
I'm curious why you would own (or pretend to own) Apple products if you don't seem to think they're worth it. Something doesn't really add up.
I own Apple products because I DO think they are worth it as consumer devices, but not as compute (or anything else) servers, even if you view a gaming rig as a "compute server", which was my point. The fact that Apple has abandoned that market is irrelevant to my point (or makes it stronger, if you prefer). What is YOUR point?
I am talking about cheaper solutions because I do a LOT of computing (CPU/GPU, you name it). So, if I (or my funding agency ) have N dollars to spend, I can get many more cycles out of whitebox hardware than out of the aesthetically pleasing but expensive Apple kit. This argument does not apply for devices I have to hold in my hand several hours a day, and for iDevices, often drop on the floor -- they are very well built, and don't break.
Apple doesn't make anything comparable to a generic white box so why do you insist on comparing it to an iMac? iMac is a consumer or pro-sumer machine if you are in the graphics business, but aside from perhaps the ease of upgradeability as the primary advantage, by the time you add in everything that comes standard on an iMac, your generic white box will be nearly the same price, a lot uglier and it's resale value almost nil. So that isn't much of a comparison either. If the white box is just a server then, again, what is the point in comparing to an iMac? The iMac is designed to be used and directly interacted with for several hours a day just like an iDevice, hence, they make them esthetically pleasing.
Comments
Quote:
Originally Posted by igriv
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You won't really get much argument from me on the unix programming model -- this is why I started using Macs in the first place (they are unix machines which are actually polished, so for laptops way better than linux boxes, for back end computing I did and still do use linux). On the other hand, Objective C is really quite ancient technology (admittedly with very nice libraries), C#/F# is the only really modern programming language supported by a major OS vendor. (I don't like IDEs because they don't support the unix model, btw, but my few experiments with VS seem to indicate that if I did like that kind of thing, that's the kind of thing I might like...)
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I know Posix define the unix programming model, but I've taught we were talking about tools (Swiss army knife analogy) which come standard with the OS and Windows being the most anemic of them all is where my plastic scissors analogy comes from. Beside, how do you define modern programming language? C# is a late follower of the Smalltalk message passing paradigm mean to fill the gap with others "modern programming language" like Java and Objective-C, and .NET libraries still have infancy issue like breaking binary compatibility at each major release, so users need to install and maintain multiple concurrent version of .NET runtime library for running any software. BTW only Apple can pretend to have a unified IDE across all their products (Phone, Tablet and Desktop OS), Microsoft in another hand, with Windows 8, Windows RT, Windows Phone 7.8, Windows Phone 8 and the Xbox, got 5 distincts userland for developers to juggle with.
Quote:
Originally Posted by razorpit
Also to the one poster that said they purchased a large number of Windows 7 licenses for future use, Microsoft does have a program that allows a user of any OS to down grade to a previous version of any supported OS. That being said, I see Windows 7 as being the new XP. I deal with several business that will be exercising the backward licensing option and have no interest in Windows 8.
If you are referring to my post I only bought 2 licenses as we are a small department and mostly Linux and Mac except for our accounting machines which run XP right now. I always build our Windows machines from scratch mostly because I want them to last. Although the high end Dells and HP are probably built really well I still prefer non proprietary components. I use only very high quality parts starting with Supermicro boards. Because I build them myself I always buy Windows OEM. Although I'm sure it is possible to buy Windows 8 OEM, I would prefer to install the OS I intend on using rather than install Windows 8 and then downgrade it as I suspect it leaves a lot of garbage behind which I would rather avoid. Like you I think Windows 7 will remain the standard for quite some time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by igriv
C#/F# is the only really modern programming language supported by a major OS vendor. (I don't like IDEs because they don't support the unix model, btw, but my few experiments with VS seem to indicate that if I did like that kind of thing, that's the kind of thing I might like...)
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I suppose C#, F# and VS are considered more modern but I have no interest in targeting .Net so for me they are useless.
I don't think you can downgrade a windows installation in any means other than a wipe and reinstall.
On the last sentence, you lost the argument by making a personal attack.
Even then, I'm not convinced you even read the comment thoroughly before rejecting it. Among other things, often, included monitors with most desktop packages are TN rather than IPS. Then there's the fact that Windows machines come preinstalled with dread.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM
You're apparently right. Your comment is news to me though. One method requires a registry edit, two others require running third party software to set it up.
In other words, a hack.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone
I suppose C#, F# and VS are considered more modern but I have no interest in targeting .Net so for me they are useless.
#next_pages_container { width: 5px; hight: 5px; position: absolute; top: -100px; left: -100px; z-index: 2147483647 !important; }Wrong. You can program your iDevice in C#/F#: http://www.mono-project.com/Main_Page
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM
On the last sentence, you lost the argument by making a personal attack.
Even then, I'm not convinced you even read the comment thoroughly before rejecting it. Among other things, often, included monitors with most desktop packages are TN rather than IPS. Then there's the fact that Windows machines come preinstalled with dread.
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I am sorry to have offended your delicate sensibilities, but the post I was responding to was clueless. As for "dread", I run linux on my PCs. With modern distros it installs in no time at all. I am typing this on a MBP, and have six iDevices within three feet of me, but Apple has never made competitive compute servers (needless to say, Dell is not the low cost vendor -- my point was that even relatively high markup PCs are much cheaper than comparable Macs).
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigMac2
I know Posix define the unix programming model, but I've taught we were talking about tools (Swiss army knife analogy) which come standard with the OS and Windows being the most anemic of them all is where my plastic scissors analogy comes from. Beside, how do you define modern programming language? C# is a late follower of the Smalltalk message passing paradigm mean to fill the gap with others "modern programming language" like Java and Objective-C, and .NET libraries still have infancy issue like breaking binary compatibility at each major release, so users need to install and maintain multiple concurrent version of .NET runtime library for running any software. BTW only Apple can pretend to have a unified IDE across all their products (Phone, Tablet and Desktop OS), Microsoft in another hand, with Windows 8, Windows RT, Windows Phone 7.8, Windows Phone 8 and the Xbox, got 5 distincts userland for developers to juggle with.
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I am not going to get into a programming language debate, but C# is far superior to Java, and Objective-C is modern if you define "today" to be "November 23, 1986". Yes, they have garbage collection now. Whoopee! I have nothing against Apple's IDE, but Apple has historically made their tools harder to use, perhaps to keep out the riffraff, so VS is more pleasant to use.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by igriv
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone
I suppose C#, F# and VS are considered more modern but I have no interest in targeting .Net so for me they are useless.
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Wrong. You can program your iDevice in C#/F#: http://www.mono-project.com/Main_Page
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Terrific another obscure framework with the ability to port to different platforms. Impressive. I could also program for iDevices in Adobe Flash but I'd rather use the tools that are specifically designed for the task at hand including a really nice simulator.
Quote:
Originally Posted by igriv
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I am not going to get into a programming language debate, but C# is far superior to Java, and Objective-C is modern if you define "today" to be "November 23, 1986". Yes, they have garbage collection now. Whoopee! I have nothing against Apple's IDE, but Apple has historically made their tools harder to use, perhaps to keep out the riffraff, so VS is more pleasant to use.
#next_pages_container { width: 5px; hight: 5px; position: absolute; top: -100px; left: -100px; z-index: 2147483647 !important; }
It seam you're understanding of the history of programming languages is pretty narrowing to M$ VS only, calling C# a far superior language over anything else is baseless. The "modernity" of a programming language is not define by it's age but by its objects interaction paradigm and features. No sane developers taught about being a newborn language is a plus, every solid programming language need decades of refinement and proofing. Microsoft was only 30years late to trash their VB ugliness and to jump in the Smalltalk wagon.
In your other baseless claims, I'm really puzzled, do you really believe Windows' tools are easer to use than Apple ones? Wow, I think you're too young to have ever seen ResEdit, MPW or Hypercard. Besides, originally the discussion was about Tools and not IDE, now point me a good built-in tool on Windows? Anything like rsync, grep, awk, scp, built-in in Windows? NOPE!
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM
I don't think you can downgrade a windows installation in any means other than a wipe and reinstall.
I have not investigated it. I assumed it was something like Windows 7 with XP mode. Since my licenses are always OEM I don't think I qualify for MS support such downgrading the license whether I have to wipe the disk or not. I'll be fine with the two extra Windows 7 licenses I have. Perhaps in three or four years they will release something worthwhile upgrading to. In the mean time this will hold me over.
Quote:
Originally Posted by igriv
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I am sorry to have offended your delicate sensibilities, but the post I was responding to was clueless. As for "dread", I run linux on my PCs. With modern distros it installs in no time at all. I am typing this on a MBP, and have six iDevices within three feet of me, but Apple has never made competitive compute servers (needless to say, Dell is not the low cost vendor -- my point was that even relatively high markup PCs are much cheaper than comparable Macs).
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Here we go again. The Windows apologist with no less than six iDevices within his reach plus a MBP. Why are you concerned with cheaper solutions when you obviously have more than a few thousand dollars worth of Apple gear? And since Windows and Linux are also your preferred platforms I would assume you have another few thousand dollars worth of servers and such. So why are we talking about choosing cheaper solutions? Mac people choose Mac because they like the hardware and OS integration and the machines are plenty powerful so that is not an issue. Even if they are slightly more expensive they have a very good value / cost ratio. You get what you pay for, like an Apple Store where you can go if you need any support and fantastic resale value. There are many other benefits to owning a Mac, but I'm preaching to the choir since you're a Mac guy too, right?
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone
Terrific another obscure framework with the ability to port to different platforms. Impressive. I could also program for iDevices in Adobe Flash but I'd rather use the tools that are specifically designed for the task at hand including a really nice simulator.
#next_pages_container { width: 5px; hight: 5px; position: absolute; top: -100px; left: -100px; z-index: 2147483647 !important; }MonoTouch IS specifically designed for the task at hand, and does include a nice simulator. However, you have obviously made up your mind already.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone
Here we go again. The Windows apologist with no less than six iDevices within his reach plus a MBP. Why are you concerned with cheaper solutions when you obviously have more than a few thousand dollars worth of Apple gear? And since Windows and Linux are also your preferred platforms I would assume you have another few thousand dollars worth of servers and such. So why are we talking about choosing cheaper solutions? Mac people choose Mac because they like the hardware and OS integration and the machines are plenty powerful so that is not an issue. Even if they are slightly more expensive they have a very good value / cost ratio. You get what you pay for, like an Apple Store where you can go if you need any support and fantastic resale value. There are many other benefits to owning a Mac, but I'm preaching to the choir since you're a Mac guy too, right?
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1. I am not a Windows apologist (I don't like windows much, but there is still lots of software only available for windows, sad to say).
2. I am talking about cheaper solutions because I do a LOT of computing (CPU/GPU, you name it). So, if I (or my funding agency
3. Hardware-software integration: not sure what you mean, but if you mean that they work out of the box, that is certainly a factor. In general, Apple makes very good consumer products, which is presumably why they have high resale value. As you say, you are not going to get an argument here.
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You made zero response to any of the specific items stated, then went on to say they're clueless. It's a non-answer followed by a misdirection. We're all aware you can buy an x.x GHz computer from competition for a lot less, but value isn't always about counting gigahertz and gigabytes and dividing by money. There are other things that make the whole equation. As it is, I powered down an HP xw8x00 workstation earlier this year and do all my CAD/CAM work perfectly fine on an iMac. Even if some of it is through virtualization, it's just two or three apps, everything else is on OS X.
Apple really doesn't compete in the server space, that's kind of irrelevant. Yeah, they have the pancake server, but that's not intended for computation. I'd even say given the Mac Pro that they've effectively bowed out of the workstation market as well. So yeah, there's many places where you can't use Apple products.
I'm curious why you would own (or pretend to own) Apple products if you don't seem to think they're worth it. Something doesn't really add up.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigMac2
It seam you're understanding of the history of programming languages is pretty narrowing to M$ VS only, calling C# a far superior language over anything else is baseless. The "modernity" of a programming language is not define by it's age but by its objects interaction paradigm and features. No sane developers taught about being a newborn language is a plus, every solid programming language need decades of refinement and proofing. Microsoft was only 30years late to trash their VB ugliness and to jump in the Smalltalk wagon.
In your other baseless claims, I'm really puzzled, do you really believe Windows' tools are easer to use than Apple ones? Wow, I think you're too young to have ever seen ResEdit, MPW or Hypercard. Besides, originally the discussion was about Tools and not IDE, now point me a good built-in tool on Windows? Anything like rsync, grep, awk, scp, built-in in Windows? NOPE!
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1. If you read the rest of this thread, you will discover that I am not a fan of VS for my own actual work.
2. I know a little more about programming than you think (or than you do, sounds like) -- I have programmed using punch cards on an IBM-370 (Fortran, PL-I), to DEC-10, to VAXen, to LispMachines, to NeXT, to various Unixes, to Mac OS, to Linux, to OS X, programming various flavors of Lisp, C, Mathematica, Java, ML, awk, Python,Perl, etc, etc. Yes, I did use MPW, which left me greatly underwhelmed.
2a Hypercard, and its spawn AppleScript are not seriously maintained by Apple (although Python with AppleScript functionality is actually very nice -- doesn't come with the machine, though).
3. writing what are mostly scripts (since the library calls use up 99% of the CPU time) in C (objective or otherwise) is retarded -- you get code that takes a long time to write and a long time to debug, and doesn't run any faster. If you look at the MonoTouch page, you will see many comparisons of C# and Obj-C code, the former being about four times shorter than the latter.
3. About tools: who cares about what's built in (VS is not built in either...)? You can get all of those tools in ten minutes from the internet, generally for free, or even write them (in C#
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM
You made zero response to any of the specific items stated, then went on to say they're clueless. It's a non-answer followed by a misdirection. We're all aware you can buy an x.x GHz computer from competition for a lot less, but value isn't always about counting gigahertz and gigabytes and dividing by money. There are other things that make the whole equation. As it is, I powered down an HP xw8x00 workstation earlier this year and do all my CAD/CAM work perfectly fine on an iMac. Even if some of it is through virtualization, it's just two or three apps, everything else is on OS X.
Apple really doesn't compete in the server space, that's kind of irrelevant. Yeah, they have the pancake server, but that's not intended for computation. I'd even say given the Mac Pro that they've effectively bowed out of the workstation market as well. So yeah, there's many places where you can't use Apple products.
I'm curious why you would own (or pretend to own) Apple products if you don't seem to think they're worth it. Something doesn't really add up.
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I own Apple products because I DO think they are worth it as consumer devices, but not as compute (or anything else) servers, even if you view a gaming rig as a "compute server", which was my point. The fact that Apple has abandoned that market is irrelevant to my point (or makes it stronger, if you prefer). What is YOUR point?
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Originally Posted by igriv
I am talking about cheaper solutions because I do a LOT of computing (CPU/GPU, you name it). So, if I (or my funding agency
Apple doesn't make anything comparable to a generic white box so why do you insist on comparing it to an iMac? iMac is a consumer or pro-sumer machine if you are in the graphics business, but aside from perhaps the ease of upgradeability as the primary advantage, by the time you add in everything that comes standard on an iMac, your generic white box will be nearly the same price, a lot uglier and it's resale value almost nil. So that isn't much of a comparison either. If the white box is just a server then, again, what is the point in comparing to an iMac? The iMac is designed to be used and directly interacted with for several hours a day just like an iDevice, hence, they make them esthetically pleasing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by igriv
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MonoTouch IS specifically designed for the task at hand, and does include a nice simulator. However, you have obviously made up your mind already.
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Just curious how do you provision a device in a third party platform like mono?