I disagree. There is lots of evidence that Apple's Maps is worse, in some areas, than the other mapping systems. Note the 'in some areas'.
What folks forget is that those services weren't perfect when they launched either. And in some ways still are not perfect. For its whole life, Google directions has told folks to go the wrong way down a street in my neighborhood that has been a one way for a good 20 years. Mapquest is missing a major rail line that has been around for a good couple of years. Almost every service has timetable errors left and right for our local public transit. And so on.
This article and the source ones are written to be hit foddering hyperboling more than anything else. Details are left out in masse so Apple looks worse than they likely are. Like how many times are we really talking about, was anyone really in danger (kids, elderly etc that can't go for a day without fluids like a healthy adult can) and so on. Apple bashing gets page hits. The local police did as they should and reminded folks that this is not an ages old system that has been proven to be perfect so be careful when using it. But then the media, even the locals, had to jump on it for the page hits. Because Apple is 'bank' when it comes to page hits, always keep that in mind when reading articles.
I agree with just about everything you said........any map program takes time to mature and Apple Maps has not had that yet. But given time I am sure it will meet Apples users expectations become a great product!
The thing about Apple and the media is.....it cuts both ways....they get great media coverage for everything they do.....good and bad.
Comparing Apple Maps with year 1 of google maps is pretty pointless; kind of like saying a couple of years ago that "the Zune is as good or better than 1st generation iPod was - and it'll get better!". 99.9% of people would rather use the product that works, especially something as important as maps are. What apple should have done was put their Maps program in all developer/beta copies of iOS updates for a year or two to iron out the wrinkles and get a sense for where they probably need to rethink their source data, but only release it officially/publicly in iOS7 or 8. That way people who choose to iron out bugs and beta test could have been the guinea pigs instead of people who assume the data is just as good as it was in iOS 5.
sure ...so you are defending that? Is that a good user experience? Why replace a great working product like Google Maps in the first place? Especially knowing it would take years to get it right?
Because Google was refusing to support voice turn-by-turn navigation on iOS, which put the iPhone at a disadvantage by requiring iPhone users to look at their phone while driving.
Quote:
Originally Posted by geekdad
sure ...so you are defending that? Is that a good user experience? Why replace a great working product like Google Maps in the first place? Especially knowing it would take years to get it right? They replaced a working product with a inferior one so they could use all of their users as beta testers?
The inferior product is the one without turn-by-turn navigation, not the one where every single mapping error is repeated several hundred times over across the internet. Your mileage (ahem) may vary.
Quote:
Originally Posted by geekdad
The users...all of us....did not get a choice of which product to use?
Yes you did. Apple suggested a number of alternatives and Google Maps service is still accessible under iOS6.
Quote:
Originally Posted by geekdad
Why would Apple publicly acknowledge that it was not working correctly then fire the product manager? You think they planned it that way? Do you think they relish the criticisms from all over the world? Do they like all the bad publicity just so Maps can get as you say "the workout it is seeing today." Funny Tim Cook has acknowledged that it is not working correctly...but what does he know....he just runs Apple.....He isn't defending Maps....just you.....
Why apologise? Well, given all the whining, I think it was the smart thing to do. Take the lumps and make it better, for which they need folk to use it.
Unpleasant, I know, but a fact of life for this kind of software.
The real mistake they made was relying on Google in the first place. They should have started this project much much sooner. That's hindsight for you though.
I understand needing to cut the cord with Google as much as possible, but there are things Apple is good at, and things they're not. Maybe they should have left mapping to someone else. It's not like they don't have enough other stuff to focus on, especially when it comes to cloud infrastructure.
They did leave mapping to someone else. Their data comes from outside sources like TomTom etc.
That data being flawed led them to having to verify and correct huge parts of the data.
Correct Google Maps had problems when it was released too!! BUT they also had YEARS to get it right. So Apple had a time proven product and replaced it with one still in TESTING mode.
While having not cut off access to a multitude of other map sources, as Tim pointed out in his apology.
Only if you mean that it's imperfect, but if you are implying a harsher, more extreme use of the word defective then that is no accurate.
I am not sure I agree with you....if i am a multi billion dollar company and I release a global product and it does not meet the expectations of the products audience then........that kinda fits defective. Then it is not doing what it was designed and tested to do.
I mus say,it was nice of Apple to gift all these iphone 5 to testers. Oh, wait...
Hey, every mapping app service gets fixed by the users. That's just how it works, unfortunately. If you were using the phone primarily for the mapping app then you should have returned if it didn't work out for you.
Originally Posted by Rayz "Because Google was refusing to support voice turn-by-turn navigation on iOS, which put the iPhone at a disadvantage by requiring iPhone users to look at their phone while driving."
According to the press rumors, including those from Allthing'sD, Google wasn't refusing to offer voice navigation. They were declining to do so for free. Apple and Google were simply unable to come to an agreement on what each would be willing to offer to come to an agreement. That's business.
I am not sure I agree with you....if i am a multi billion dollar company and I release a global product and it does not meet the expectations of the products audience then........that kinda fits defective. Then it is not doing what it was designed and tested to do.
Which of course depends on how many people in that audience find it defective. If you're using the internet echo chamber as a guide then it's worth remembering the number of people who said that they would never get an iPhone5 if they shipped it with the 'long ugly' screen. By that reckoning, they shouldn't be selling too well.
I am not sure I agree with you....if i am a multi billion dollar company and I release a global product and it does not meet the expectations of the products audience then........that kinda fits defective. Then it is not doing what it was designed and tested to do.
Was iOS 1.0 a defective mobile OS if people expected cut/copy/paste? Was the original iPhone a defective handset if people expected 3G or a slide out keyboard?
It's not good when a large number of customers are expecting one experience and getting another experience — hence the reason for Cook's apology any my issues with the original 'over promise, under deliver' stemming from the iOS 6 demo — but an expectation in and of itself does not a defective (in the sense that it's not usable) product make.
My biggest issue with Map Smear™ is that Apple can't afford to operate like a normal company. They need to be proactive. They need to expect the wort so they don't have to issue apologies and hold events to show that their antenna works just fine. In both of these instances I believe Apple could have prevented all of it if they had just thought about it from the average customer's perspective of what the media will do to any shortcoming they find. If you get out in front of it then there is no shocking revelation to be revealed by a third party. Apple stays in control. Sure, you still have the extremists with their soapboxes but you will always have them.
I don't think Apple can be blamed for the fact people take a battery powered cell phone, with limited coverage, to a remote area and expect any margin of accuracy. There are Nomadic tribes in the middle east who have navigated in the shifting sands of the desert for thousands of years. People today expect too much from gadgets. I doubt Apple (or anyone) is responsible for a users lack of common sense.
Plan the trip in advance, tell people where you are going and take a map.
I have been an Apple fan for over 34 years... longer than many here have been alive!
Apple's mapping is not as good as Google Maps for many things: accuracy of data; areas covered; satellite images; POI data; street view; computer/web access... to name a few.
No amount of "pick and choose" comparisons can change this!
I do believe that, in the long run, Apple Maps will be a superior solution!
But first, Apple needs to admit to themselves that action is needed -- then take that action.
I don't really care if other map solutions are as bad or worse in some situations!
I want to use Apple Maps, and develop dependable solutions (iOS and OSX) using Apple MAps.
Apple Maps just isn't good enough!
Have you changed your position on Apple Maps, because I feel as if you had the opposite position back when I was concerned about Apple Maps being a potential issue waiting to explode back when the iOS 6 betas were out?
No!
I think that Apple screwed up in how they announced the app -- it should have been a work-in-progress or a beta.
I do not think Apple had many options as Google held all the aces -- so I believe that Apple did what they had to do... I think that Apple could/should have done a better job of explaining this with something like:
"We wanted to add features to maps like TBT and vector graphics... We wanted to provide an ad-free experience... We did not want to compromise user privacy... We wanted to provide the best possible map experience... We were unable to accomplish this through negotiations with our current map supplier going forward, so we are providing an alternative and we are committed to making this the very best map solution for our customers."
By doing this prior to iOS 6 announcement they would have avoided most of the problems -- and had people on their side rather than looking for knockoffs.
Now, do you have a link to an objective comparison, that meets at least the standards of evidence presented in the above link, that shows anything to the contrary?
Which of course depends on how many people in that audience find it defective. If you're using the internet echo chamber as a guide then it's worth remembering the number of people who said that they would never get an iPhone5 if they shipped it with the 'long ugly' screen. By that reckoning, they shouldn't be selling too well.
No one said anything about sales. No one said anything about the IP5 being defective or a failure....YOU brought that to the discussion. The phone itself has NOTHING to do with it. The iPhone 5 is a huge success. I have the 64GB in black and LOVE it.
The CEO of Apple apologized for Maps not meeting expectations. So don't muddy the waters with anything else....stay on topic.
I think that Apple screwed up in how they announced the app -- it should have been a work-in-progress or a beta.
I do not think Apple had many options as Google held all the aces -- so I believe that Apple did what they had to do... I think that Apple could/should have done a better job of explaining this with something like:
"We wanted to add features to maps like TBT and vector graphics... We wanted to provide an ad-free experience... We did not want to compromise user privacy... We wanted to provide the best possible map experience... We were unable to accomplish this through negotiations with our current map supplier going forward, so we are providing an alternative and we are committed to making this the very best map solution for our customers."
By doing this prior to iOS 6 announcement they would have avoided most of the problems -- and had people on their side rather than looking for knockoffs.
No one said anything about sales. No one said anything about the IP5 being defective or a failure....YOU brought that to the discussion. The phone itself has NOTHING to do with it. The iPhone 5 is a huge success. I have the 64GB in black and LOVE it.
The CEO of Apple apologized for Maps not meeting expectations. So don't muddy the waters with anything else....stay on topic.
You stated, "So if it failed expectations then it is defective." You opened it up to anything that has failed expectations. I can't recall a product from Apple in the last decade that hasn't had failed expectations. Hence, I think your definition, as stated, is inaccurate.
The CEO of Apple apologized for Maps not meeting expectations. So don't muddy the waters with anything else....stay on topic.
As pointed, the expectations where that it would be perfect, and, not surprisingly, it wasn't perfect. That doesn't mean it's any more "defective" than any other mapping service. Present some actual, objective evidence that Google Maps is substantially more accurate -- not this anecdotal nonsense being tossed around -- or please admit that you are engaged in baseless hysteria.
Comments
Quote:
Originally Posted by charlituna
I disagree. There is lots of evidence that Apple's Maps is worse, in some areas, than the other mapping systems. Note the 'in some areas'.
What folks forget is that those services weren't perfect when they launched either. And in some ways still are not perfect. For its whole life, Google directions has told folks to go the wrong way down a street in my neighborhood that has been a one way for a good 20 years. Mapquest is missing a major rail line that has been around for a good couple of years. Almost every service has timetable errors left and right for our local public transit. And so on.
This article and the source ones are written to be hit foddering hyperboling more than anything else. Details are left out in masse so Apple looks worse than they likely are. Like how many times are we really talking about, was anyone really in danger (kids, elderly etc that can't go for a day without fluids like a healthy adult can) and so on. Apple bashing gets page hits. The local police did as they should and reminded folks that this is not an ages old system that has been proven to be perfect so be careful when using it. But then the media, even the locals, had to jump on it for the page hits. Because Apple is 'bank' when it comes to page hits, always keep that in mind when reading articles.
I agree with just about everything you said........any map program takes time to mature and Apple Maps has not had that yet. But given time I am sure it will meet Apples users expectations become a great product!
The thing about Apple and the media is.....it cuts both ways....they get great media coverage for everything they do.....good and bad.
Only if you mean that it's imperfect, but if you are implying a harsher, more extreme use of the word defective then that is no accurate.
Comparing Apple Maps with year 1 of google maps is pretty pointless; kind of like saying a couple of years ago that "the Zune is as good or better than 1st generation iPod was - and it'll get better!". 99.9% of people would rather use the product that works, especially something as important as maps are. What apple should have done was put their Maps program in all developer/beta copies of iOS updates for a year or two to iron out the wrinkles and get a sense for where they probably need to rethink their source data, but only release it officially/publicly in iOS7 or 8. That way people who choose to iron out bugs and beta test could have been the guinea pigs instead of people who assume the data is just as good as it was in iOS 5.
Quote:
Originally Posted by geekdad
sure ...so you are defending that? Is that a good user experience? Why replace a great working product like Google Maps in the first place? Especially knowing it would take years to get it right?
Because Google was refusing to support voice turn-by-turn navigation on iOS, which put the iPhone at a disadvantage by requiring iPhone users to look at their phone while driving.
Quote:
Originally Posted by geekdad
sure ...so you are defending that? Is that a good user experience? Why replace a great working product like Google Maps in the first place? Especially knowing it would take years to get it right? They replaced a working product with a inferior one so they could use all of their users as beta testers?
The inferior product is the one without turn-by-turn navigation, not the one where every single mapping error is repeated several hundred times over across the internet. Your mileage (ahem) may vary.
Quote:
Originally Posted by geekdad
The users...all of us....did not get a choice of which product to use?
Yes you did. Apple suggested a number of alternatives and Google Maps service is still accessible under iOS6.
Quote:
Originally Posted by geekdad
Why would Apple publicly acknowledge that it was not working correctly then fire the product manager? You think they planned it that way? Do you think they relish the criticisms from all over the world? Do they like all the bad publicity just so Maps can get as you say "the workout it is seeing today." Funny Tim Cook has acknowledged that it is not working correctly...but what does he know....he just runs Apple.....He isn't defending Maps....just you.....
Why apologise? Well, given all the whining, I think it was the smart thing to do. Take the lumps and make it better, for which they need folk to use it.
Unpleasant, I know, but a fact of life for this kind of software.
The real mistake they made was relying on Google in the first place. They should have started this project much much sooner. That's hindsight for you though.
They did leave mapping to someone else. Their data comes from outside sources like TomTom etc.
That data being flawed led them to having to verify and correct huge parts of the data.
While having not cut off access to a multitude of other map sources, as Tim pointed out in his apology.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX
Only if you mean that it's imperfect, but if you are implying a harsher, more extreme use of the word defective then that is no accurate.
I am not sure I agree with you....if i am a multi billion dollar company and I release a global product and it does not meet the expectations of the products audience then........that kinda fits defective. Then it is not doing what it was designed and tested to do.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lightknight
I mus say,it was nice of Apple to gift all these iphone 5 to testers. Oh, wait...
Hey, every mapping app service gets fixed by the users. That's just how it works, unfortunately. If you were using the phone primarily for the mapping app then you should have returned if it didn't work out for you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rayz "Because Google was refusing to support voice turn-by-turn navigation on iOS, which put the iPhone at a disadvantage by requiring iPhone users to look at their phone while driving."
According to the press rumors, including those from Allthing'sD, Google wasn't refusing to offer voice navigation. They were declining to do so for free. Apple and Google were simply unable to come to an agreement on what each would be willing to offer to come to an agreement. That's business.
Quote:
Originally Posted by geekdad
I am not sure I agree with you....if i am a multi billion dollar company and I release a global product and it does not meet the expectations of the products audience then........that kinda fits defective. Then it is not doing what it was designed and tested to do.
Which of course depends on how many people in that audience find it defective. If you're using the internet echo chamber as a guide then it's worth remembering the number of people who said that they would never get an iPhone5 if they shipped it with the 'long ugly' screen. By that reckoning, they shouldn't be selling too well.
Originally Posted by c4rlob
Firing their iOS executives is looking like an even better decision now!
Why?
Was iOS 1.0 a defective mobile OS if people expected cut/copy/paste? Was the original iPhone a defective handset if people expected 3G or a slide out keyboard?
It's not good when a large number of customers are expecting one experience and getting another experience — hence the reason for Cook's apology any my issues with the original 'over promise, under deliver' stemming from the iOS 6 demo — but an expectation in and of itself does not a defective (in the sense that it's not usable) product make.
My biggest issue with Map Smear™ is that Apple can't afford to operate like a normal company. They need to be proactive. They need to expect the wort so they don't have to issue apologies and hold events to show that their antenna works just fine. In both of these instances I believe Apple could have prevented all of it if they had just thought about it from the average customer's perspective of what the media will do to any shortcoming they find. If you get out in front of it then there is no shocking revelation to be revealed by a third party. Apple stays in control. Sure, you still have the extremists with their soapboxes but you will always have them.
I don't think Apple can be blamed for the fact people take a battery powered cell phone, with limited coverage, to a remote area and expect any margin of accuracy. There are Nomadic tribes in the middle east who have navigated in the shifting sands of the desert for thousands of years. People today expect too much from gadgets. I doubt Apple (or anyone) is responsible for a users lack of common sense.
Plan the trip in advance, tell people where you are going and take a map.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum
I have been an Apple fan for over 34 years... longer than many here have been alive!
Apple's mapping is not as good as Google Maps for many things: accuracy of data; areas covered; satellite images; POI data; street view; computer/web access... to name a few.
No amount of "pick and choose" comparisons can change this!
I do believe that, in the long run, Apple Maps will be a superior solution!
But first, Apple needs to admit to themselves that action is needed -- then take that action.
I don't really care if other map solutions are as bad or worse in some situations!
I want to use Apple Maps, and develop dependable solutions (iOS and OSX) using Apple MAps.
Apple Maps just isn't good enough!
Have you changed your position on Apple Maps, because I feel as if you had the opposite position back when I was concerned about Apple Maps being a potential issue waiting to explode back when the iOS 6 betas were out?
No!
I think that Apple screwed up in how they announced the app -- it should have been a work-in-progress or a beta.
I do not think Apple had many options as Google held all the aces -- so I believe that Apple did what they had to do... I think that Apple could/should have done a better job of explaining this with something like:
"We wanted to add features to maps like TBT and vector graphics... We wanted to provide an ad-free experience... We did not want to compromise user privacy... We wanted to provide the best possible map experience... We were unable to accomplish this through negotiations with our current map supplier going forward, so we are providing an alternative and we are committed to making this the very best map solution for our customers."
By doing this prior to iOS 6 announcement they would have avoided most of the problems -- and had people on their side rather than looking for knockoffs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichL
Got a link to these comparisons?
Here's one: http://blog.tabini.ca/2012/09/old-maps-vs-new-maps/
Now, do you have a link to an objective comparison, that meets at least the standards of evidence presented in the above link, that shows anything to the contrary?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rayz
Which of course depends on how many people in that audience find it defective. If you're using the internet echo chamber as a guide then it's worth remembering the number of people who said that they would never get an iPhone5 if they shipped it with the 'long ugly' screen. By that reckoning, they shouldn't be selling too well.
No one said anything about sales. No one said anything about the IP5 being defective or a failure....YOU brought that to the discussion. The phone itself has NOTHING to do with it. The iPhone 5 is a huge success. I have the 64GB in black and LOVE it.
The CEO of Apple apologized for Maps not meeting expectations. So don't muddy the waters with anything else....stay on topic.
LOL...I can't believe how delusional the Apple fan boys have become.
-kpluck
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum
No!
I think that Apple screwed up in how they announced the app -- it should have been a work-in-progress or a beta.
I do not think Apple had many options as Google held all the aces -- so I believe that Apple did what they had to do... I think that Apple could/should have done a better job of explaining this with something like:
"We wanted to add features to maps like TBT and vector graphics... We wanted to provide an ad-free experience... We did not want to compromise user privacy... We wanted to provide the best possible map experience... We were unable to accomplish this through negotiations with our current map supplier going forward, so we are providing an alternative and we are committed to making this the very best map solution for our customers."
By doing this prior to iOS 6 announcement they would have avoided most of the problems -- and had people on their side rather than looking for knockoffs.
I agree 100%.....
You stated, "So if it failed expectations then it is defective." You opened it up to anything that has failed expectations. I can't recall a product from Apple in the last decade that hasn't had failed expectations. Hence, I think your definition, as stated, is inaccurate.
Quote:
Originally Posted by geekdad
The CEO of Apple apologized for Maps not meeting expectations. So don't muddy the waters with anything else....stay on topic.
As pointed, the expectations where that it would be perfect, and, not surprisingly, it wasn't perfect. That doesn't mean it's any more "defective" than any other mapping service. Present some actual, objective evidence that Google Maps is substantially more accurate -- not this anecdotal nonsense being tossed around -- or please admit that you are engaged in baseless hysteria.