I have been an Apple fan for over 34 years... longer than many here have been alive!
Apple's mapping is not as good as Google Maps for many things: accuracy of data; areas covered; satellite images; POI data; street view; computer/web access... to name a few.
No amount of "pick and choose" comparisons can change this!
I do believe that, in the long run, Apple Maps will be a superior solution!
But first, Apple needs to admit to themselves that action is needed -- then take that action.
I don't really care if other map solutions are as bad or worse in some situations!
I want to use Apple Maps, and develop dependable solutions (iOS and OSX) using Apple MAps.
Apple Maps just isn't good enough!
I've been an Apple fan about 30 years and I'm irritated sometimes with Apple. Maps - I just wont' use it. I don't trust it. I want Apple's old Google based app back.
Another annoyance: clicking on a link is Apple Mail (Mountain Lion). I get weird error saying the app doesn't know what to do. WTF?????
I think that Apple screwed up in how they announced the app -- it should have been a work-in-progress or a beta.
I do not think Apple had many options as Google held all the aces -- so I believe that Apple did what they had to do... I think that Apple could/should have done a better job of explaining this with something like:
"We wanted to add features to maps like TBT and vector graphics... We wanted to provide an ad-free experience... We did not want to compromise user privacy... We wanted to provide the best possible map experience... We were unable to accomplish this through negotiations with our current map supplier going forward, so we are providing an alternative and we are committed to making this the very best map solution for our customers."
By doing this prior to iOS 6 announcement they would have avoided most of the problems -- and had people on their side rather than looking for knockoffs.
They also could have provided the alternatives up front instead of as reaction to the uproar.
And truthfully they could have pushed a lot more money into it. I don't recall once during the beta testing Apple asking developers to correct any addresses or PoIs that they find incorrect.
As pointed, the expectations where that it would be perfect, and, not surprisingly, it wasn't perfect. That doesn't mean it's any more "defective" than any other mapping service. Present some actual, objective evidence that Google Maps is substantially more accurate -- not this anecdotal nonsense being tossed around -- or please admit that you are engaged in baseless hysteria.
Good point. I think stating that the expectations set up by Apple were definitely defective.
Was iOS 1.0 a defective mobile OS if people expected cut/copy/paste? Was the original iPhone a defective handset if people expected 3G or a slide out keyboard?
It's not good when a large number of customers are expecting one experience and getting another experience — hence the reason for Cook's apology any my issues with the original 'over promise, under deliver' stemming from the iOS 6 demo — but an expectation in and of itself does not a defective (in the sense that it's not usable) product make.
My biggest issue with Map Smear™ is that Apple can't afford to operate like a normal company. They need to be proactive. They need to expect the wort so they don't have to issue apologies and hold events to show that their antenna works just fine. In both of these instances I believe Apple could have prevented all of it if they had just thought about it from the average customer's perspective of what the media will do to any shortcoming they find. If you get out in front of it then there is no shocking revelation to be revealed by a third party. Apple stays in control. Sure, you still have the extremists with their soapboxes but you will always have them.
I think we have to face the fact that Apple is a huge company that makes it slow when it comes to software. IOS looks a million years old and you can't change the skins in apps. Also, Safari on iOS is simply not good. Chrome is much better. Why can't I set Chrome as default browser on IOS? Sucks. Also, Safari on Mac is slow. I've done a clean install and sometimes Safari just hangs and won't display an entire web page. I will use Chrome and it opens pages in a flash. iOS Mountain Lion? $20 is much ado about nothing.
Someone who worked at Apple said, "Yes, Apple is fast if you are going in reverse." They have some work to do. They are sitting on billions of dollars that then want to bring to US (most of it is in foreign banks), but don't want to pay taxes on it and want tax amnesty. Come on. Bring the money back, pay your taxes, and hire a ton of people to do Street View. Canvas the entire world and put that into maps.
Was iOS 1.0 a defective mobile OS if people expected cut/copy/paste? Was the original iPhone a defective handset if people expected 3G or a slide out keyboard?
It's not good when a large number of customers are expecting one experience and getting another experience — hence the reason for Cook's apology any my issues with the original 'over promise, under deliver' stemming from the iOS 6 demo — but an expectation in and of itself does not a defective (in the sense that it's not usable) product make.
My biggest issue with Map Smear™ is that Apple can't afford to operate like a normal company. They need to be proactive. They need to expect the wort so they don't have to issue apologies and hold events to show that their antenna works just fine. In both of these instances I believe Apple could have prevented all of it if they had just thought about it from the average customer's perspective of what the media will do to any shortcoming they find. If you get out in front of it then there is no shocking revelation to be revealed by a third party. Apple stays in control. Sure, you still have the extremists with their soapboxes but you will always have them.
I agree with allot of your points. But we are not talking about a whole mobile operating system and bells and whistles. We are talking about one app that replaced (at time of launch) a perfectly functioning app. Then through general users feedback and public acknowledgement from the CEO....it failed expectations. It failed Apples own high standard for user experience. If a billion dollar company with all of its resources at its disposal launches an application and it fails to meet expectations then it failed......not a complete failure. It can still be improved (all map apps can) but it will take time.
I agree with allot of your points. But we are not talking about a whole mobile operating system and bells and whistles. We are talking about one app that replaced (at time of launch) a perfectly functioning app. Then through general users feedback and public acknowledgement from the CEO....it failed expectations. It failed Apples own high standard for user experience. If a billion dollar company with all of its resources at its disposal launches an application and it fails to meet expectations then it failed......not a complete failure. It can still be improved (all map apps can) but it will take time.
As pointed, the expectations where that it would be perfect, and, not surprisingly, it wasn't perfect. That doesn't mean it's any more "defective" than any other mapping service. Present some actual, objective evidence that Google Maps is substantially more accurate -- not this anecdotal nonsense being tossed around -- or please admit that you are engaged in baseless hysteria.
yes....hysteria cuts both ways does it not......some will defend something based on a imagined personal emotional attachment. Even ignoring public evidence to the contrary that is readily available to them.
Now, do you have a link to an objective comparison, that meets at least the standards of evidence presented in the above link, that shows anything to the contrary?
I think your own link shows that your arguments are flawed when:
1 - it admits that it's only relevant to a single Canadian province (you're making claims about the entire world);
2 - It mentions a test that shows completely contradictory results even in that Canadian province;
3 - It states that Apple Maps fails at the most basic of tasks, which is to search for data that does not precisely match the data in its database.
I agree with allot of your points. But we are not talking about a whole mobile operating system and bells and whistles. We are talking about one app that replaced (at time of launch) a perfectly functioning app. Then through general users feedback and public acknowledgement from the CEO....it failed expectations. It failed Apples own high standard for user experience. If a billion dollar company with all of its resources at its disposal launches an application and it fails to meet expectations then it failed......not a complete failure. It can still be improved (all map apps can) but it will take time.
Again, Maps powered by Google were not perfectly functioning. People had complained about TbT and vector mapping since at least when Android Maps started offering it. There were errors in Google's backend. There still is, as noted by people comparing searches between the two over the last few months.
Google's location data is better, but you know it is and you know why it is.
As you now state, "it failed expectations" which is not the same as the product is defective and unusable.
Show me evidence that users were forced to upgrade from 5.x to 6.0.
Of course I don't have to do this because I had the foresight to save my SHSH blobs before Apple stopped signing my iDevices for iOS 5.x, but still, as you can see, they're forcing the upgrade.
Again, Maps powered by Google were not perfectly functioning. People had complained about TbT and vector mapping since at least when Android Maps started offering it. There were errors in Google's backend. There still is, as noted by people comparing searches between the two over the last few months.
Google's location data is better, but you know it is and you know why it is.
As you now state, "it failed expectations" which is not the same as the product is defective and unusable.
Show me evidence that users were forced to upgrade from 5.x to 6.0.
Please see the text in red above. I have never said Maps is unusable. It does not meet user expectations....even Tim said so when he apologized for the failed expectations.
If a product (Apple Maps) is launched especially by a billion dollar corp like Apple that prides it self on the users experience.....then fails to meet those expectations. then the product launch failed....it is defective by the failed expectations.
Please stop name calling.......no personal attacks. Is there a moderator on this thread?
Does no one use the report button anymore? It's like a call button in a hospital or the 'assistance required' button on a plane or the popcorn preset on a microwave. Fastest way to get one of us in here.
"But you didn't change or delete it…"
Because it isn't an insult, really. It's the same as calling someone a conspiracy theorist "tin-foiler" when outing their conspiracy. That last part is crucial, of course.
This is a good example of why maps are so hard. Apple Maps isn't actually displaying anything incorrectly. The user entered "Mildura" with nothing else to narrow the location. Apple Maps returns the biggest, most general "Midura" it can find. In this case, that happens to be Mildura Share, an administrative area similar to a US county. It displays it with a pin. If you supply either an address or even a postal code, then it would return the actual town of Mildura.
Apple Maps isn't inaccurate in this case, but it is behaving poorly. Ideally, it would show the region with borders highlighted like Google does. If it can't do that, it should at least refuse to provide driving directions to the centre of a region like that.
If you try a little, you can find many instances where Apple Maps returns the centre of a region like this. The "errors" that people like to post usually involve situations like this where there are different places with similar names. If you don't give a precise address, it tries to pick the best match it can find, given the information you provided. While this is correct in a purely academic GIS sense, it is not appropriate for end users. These are the kinds of errors that Apple is apologizing for. It is correct, but not useful.
yes....hysteria cuts both ways does it not......some will defend something based on a imagined personal emotional attachment. Even ignoring public evidence to the contrary that is readily available to them.
Evidence has been presented...did you not see it?
No, I don't see any objective evidence presented to support your assertions. They are entirely baseless, as far as anyone can tell. Yet, you repeat them loudly and continuously. It sure sounds like you are simply being hysterical.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaelian
I think your own link shows that your arguments are flawed when:
1 - it admits that it's only relevant to a single Canadian province (you're making claims about the entire world);
2 - It mentions a test that shows completely contradictory results even in that Canadian province;
3 - It states that Apple Maps fails at the most basic of tasks, which is to search for data that does not precisely match the data in its database.
But, what it does not show, is that Google Maps is better, or that Apple Maps is worse. and, as for your point 3, it also points out that Google often returns results for searches that don't, "precisely match the data in its database," that are completely nonsensical. Which is worse, nonsense or nothing? That might depend on your point of view, but no one has produced any objective evidence to support the claims that Google Maps is better, let alone significantly better.
... I'm still waiting for you to provide a side-by-side comparison that shows Apple's Maps to be inferior to the alternatives. ...
And everyone else is waiting for you to provide a side-by-side comparison that proves it not to be inferior. Can't we just agree that sufficient objective testing hasn't been done yet?
Methinks you really do protest too much in regards this issue however. It's painfully obvious to anyone who isn't located in the USA that Apple's map data (or Nokia's map data or TomTom's map data or whatever the source is), basically sucks. It's not a trivial thing either, the mistakes are huge and important. The omissions are glaring and disappointing.
Personally, it's a little irritating to me that you (presumably an American sitting somewhere in the USA), presumes to tell the rest of the world that the map data is fine, or as good as Google's when we can all see that it is not. You say you haven't seen proof of this yet, but you have no proof of the contrary either.
The issue has never been with the data inside the US but the data outside the US. The single survey that anyone points to that purports to measure the accuracy of maps outside of the USA was this which was a single, small, quick study done informally and located in the most popular and populace region of Canada. Even then it came out with mixed results and has specific caveats saying how it may not be representative of anything at all. This is not good evidence of anything at all.
Vancouver, the third largest city in Canada and the main city on the west coast of the country is full of huge errors, even downtown. The parks are all in the wrong place. The bike routes aren't mapped, whole streets are missing. 80-90% of the businesses don't show up. There are so many errors it's simply not worth asking for directions unless you are in a car.
Just because this evidence is anecdotal doesn't make it irrelevant. Especially in the absence of any real tests. You may be right about Apple maps being overall as good as Google maps. You may be wrong. Two things seem abundantly clear to me though:
- Anecdotal claims suggests HUGE problems
- No solid evidence to contradict these claims exists.
Comments
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum
I have been an Apple fan for over 34 years... longer than many here have been alive!
Apple's mapping is not as good as Google Maps for many things: accuracy of data; areas covered; satellite images; POI data; street view; computer/web access... to name a few.
No amount of "pick and choose" comparisons can change this!
I do believe that, in the long run, Apple Maps will be a superior solution!
But first, Apple needs to admit to themselves that action is needed -- then take that action.
I don't really care if other map solutions are as bad or worse in some situations!
I want to use Apple Maps, and develop dependable solutions (iOS and OSX) using Apple MAps.
Apple Maps just isn't good enough!
I've been an Apple fan about 30 years and I'm irritated sometimes with Apple. Maps - I just wont' use it. I don't trust it. I want Apple's old Google based app back.
Another annoyance: clicking on a link is Apple Mail (Mountain Lion). I get weird error saying the app doesn't know what to do. WTF?????
P
They also could have provided the alternatives up front instead of as reaction to the uproar.
And truthfully they could have pushed a lot more money into it. I don't recall once during the beta testing Apple asking developers to correct any addresses or PoIs that they find incorrect.
Good point. I think stating that the expectations set up by Apple were definitely defective.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX
Was iOS 1.0 a defective mobile OS if people expected cut/copy/paste? Was the original iPhone a defective handset if people expected 3G or a slide out keyboard?
It's not good when a large number of customers are expecting one experience and getting another experience — hence the reason for Cook's apology any my issues with the original 'over promise, under deliver' stemming from the iOS 6 demo — but an expectation in and of itself does not a defective (in the sense that it's not usable) product make.
My biggest issue with Map Smear™ is that Apple can't afford to operate like a normal company. They need to be proactive. They need to expect the wort so they don't have to issue apologies and hold events to show that their antenna works just fine. In both of these instances I believe Apple could have prevented all of it if they had just thought about it from the average customer's perspective of what the media will do to any shortcoming they find. If you get out in front of it then there is no shocking revelation to be revealed by a third party. Apple stays in control. Sure, you still have the extremists with their soapboxes but you will always have them.
I think we have to face the fact that Apple is a huge company that makes it slow when it comes to software. IOS looks a million years old and you can't change the skins in apps. Also, Safari on iOS is simply not good. Chrome is much better. Why can't I set Chrome as default browser on IOS? Sucks. Also, Safari on Mac is slow. I've done a clean install and sometimes Safari just hangs and won't display an entire web page. I will use Chrome and it opens pages in a flash. iOS Mountain Lion? $20 is much ado about nothing.
Someone who worked at Apple said, "Yes, Apple is fast if you are going in reverse." They have some work to do. They are sitting on billions of dollars that then want to bring to US (most of it is in foreign banks), but don't want to pay taxes on it and want tax amnesty. Come on. Bring the money back, pay your taxes, and hire a ton of people to do Street View. Canvas the entire world and put that into maps.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX
Was iOS 1.0 a defective mobile OS if people expected cut/copy/paste? Was the original iPhone a defective handset if people expected 3G or a slide out keyboard?
It's not good when a large number of customers are expecting one experience and getting another experience — hence the reason for Cook's apology any my issues with the original 'over promise, under deliver' stemming from the iOS 6 demo — but an expectation in and of itself does not a defective (in the sense that it's not usable) product make.
My biggest issue with Map Smear™ is that Apple can't afford to operate like a normal company. They need to be proactive. They need to expect the wort so they don't have to issue apologies and hold events to show that their antenna works just fine. In both of these instances I believe Apple could have prevented all of it if they had just thought about it from the average customer's perspective of what the media will do to any shortcoming they find. If you get out in front of it then there is no shocking revelation to be revealed by a third party. Apple stays in control. Sure, you still have the extremists with their soapboxes but you will always have them.
I agree with allot of your points. But we are not talking about a whole mobile operating system and bells and whistles. We are talking about one app that replaced (at time of launch) a perfectly functioning app. Then through general users feedback and public acknowledgement from the CEO....it failed expectations. It failed Apples own high standard for user experience. If a billion dollar company with all of its resources at its disposal launches an application and it fails to meet expectations then it failed......not a complete failure. It can still be improved (all map apps can) but it will take time.
The upgrade to iOS 6 is pretty much forced by Apple since they are no longer signing any iOS 5 installs. The rest of your argument is refuted by this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by geekdad
I agree with allot of your points. But we are not talking about a whole mobile operating system and bells and whistles. We are talking about one app that replaced (at time of launch) a perfectly functioning app. Then through general users feedback and public acknowledgement from the CEO....it failed expectations. It failed Apples own high standard for user experience. If a billion dollar company with all of its resources at its disposal launches an application and it fails to meet expectations then it failed......not a complete failure. It can still be improved (all map apps can) but it will take time.
More hysteria, chicken little.
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse
As pointed, the expectations where that it would be perfect, and, not surprisingly, it wasn't perfect. That doesn't mean it's any more "defective" than any other mapping service. Present some actual, objective evidence that Google Maps is substantially more accurate -- not this anecdotal nonsense being tossed around -- or please admit that you are engaged in baseless hysteria.
yes....hysteria cuts both ways does it not......some will defend something based on a imagined personal emotional attachment. Even ignoring public evidence to the contrary that is readily available to them.
Evidence has been presented...did you not see it?
I think your own link shows that your arguments are flawed when:
1 - it admits that it's only relevant to a single Canadian province (you're making claims about the entire world);
2 - It mentions a test that shows completely contradictory results even in that Canadian province;
3 - It states that Apple Maps fails at the most basic of tasks, which is to search for data that does not precisely match the data in its database.
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse
More hysteria, chicken little.
Please stop name calling.......no personal attacks. Is there a moderator on this thread?
Again, Maps powered by Google were not perfectly functioning. People had complained about TbT and vector mapping since at least when Android Maps started offering it. There were errors in Google's backend. There still is, as noted by people comparing searches between the two over the last few months.
Google's location data is better, but you know it is and you know why it is.
As you now state, "it failed expectations" which is not the same as the product is defective and unusable.
Show me evidence that users were forced to upgrade from 5.x to 6.0.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pfisher
Another annoyance: clicking on a link is Apple Mail (Mountain Lion). I get weird error saying the app doesn't know what to do. WTF?????
Safari preferences defines which browser opens URLs - check the setting. The default is Safari. Is Safari installed and working?
Of course I don't have to do this because I had the foresight to save my SHSH blobs before Apple stopped signing my iDevices for iOS 5.x, but still, as you can see, they're forcing the upgrade.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX
Again, Maps powered by Google were not perfectly functioning. People had complained about TbT and vector mapping since at least when Android Maps started offering it. There were errors in Google's backend. There still is, as noted by people comparing searches between the two over the last few months.
Google's location data is better, but you know it is and you know why it is.
As you now state, "it failed expectations" which is not the same as the product is defective and unusable.
Show me evidence that users were forced to upgrade from 5.x to 6.0.
Please see the text in red above. I have never said Maps is unusable. It does not meet user expectations....even Tim said so when he apologized for the failed expectations.
If a product (Apple Maps) is launched especially by a billion dollar corp like Apple that prides it self on the users experience.....then fails to meet those expectations. then the product launch failed....it is defective by the failed expectations.
Originally Posted by Vaelian
…pretty much…
Hmm.
Originally Posted by geekdad
Please stop name calling.......no personal attacks. Is there a moderator on this thread?
Does no one use the report button anymore? It's like a call button in a hospital or the 'assistance required' button on a plane or the popcorn preset on a microwave. Fastest way to get one of us in here.
"But you didn't change or delete it…"
Because it isn't an insult, really. It's the same as calling someone a conspiracy theorist "tin-foiler" when outing their conspiracy. That last part is crucial, of course.
This is a good example of why maps are so hard. Apple Maps isn't actually displaying anything incorrectly. The user entered "Mildura" with nothing else to narrow the location. Apple Maps returns the biggest, most general "Midura" it can find. In this case, that happens to be Mildura Share, an administrative area similar to a US county. It displays it with a pin. If you supply either an address or even a postal code, then it would return the actual town of Mildura.
Apple Maps isn't inaccurate in this case, but it is behaving poorly. Ideally, it would show the region with borders highlighted like Google does. If it can't do that, it should at least refuse to provide driving directions to the centre of a region like that.
If you try a little, you can find many instances where Apple Maps returns the centre of a region like this. The "errors" that people like to post usually involve situations like this where there are different places with similar names. If you don't give a precise address, it tries to pick the best match it can find, given the information you provided. While this is correct in a purely academic GIS sense, it is not appropriate for end users. These are the kinds of errors that Apple is apologizing for. It is correct, but not useful.
Originally Posted by tflanders
Ideally, it would show the region with borders highlighted like Google does.
I hate that. I hate that A LOT.
Quote:
Originally Posted by geekdad
yes....hysteria cuts both ways does it not......some will defend something based on a imagined personal emotional attachment. Even ignoring public evidence to the contrary that is readily available to them.
Evidence has been presented...did you not see it?
No, I don't see any objective evidence presented to support your assertions. They are entirely baseless, as far as anyone can tell. Yet, you repeat them loudly and continuously. It sure sounds like you are simply being hysterical.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaelian
I think your own link shows that your arguments are flawed when:
1 - it admits that it's only relevant to a single Canadian province (you're making claims about the entire world);
2 - It mentions a test that shows completely contradictory results even in that Canadian province;
3 - It states that Apple Maps fails at the most basic of tasks, which is to search for data that does not precisely match the data in its database.
But, what it does not show, is that Google Maps is better, or that Apple Maps is worse. and, as for your point 3, it also points out that Google often returns results for searches that don't, "precisely match the data in its database," that are completely nonsensical. Which is worse, nonsense or nothing? That might depend on your point of view, but no one has produced any objective evidence to support the claims that Google Maps is better, let alone significantly better.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta
... I'm still waiting for you to provide a side-by-side comparison that shows Apple's Maps to be inferior to the alternatives. ...
And everyone else is waiting for you to provide a side-by-side comparison that proves it not to be inferior. Can't we just agree that sufficient objective testing hasn't been done yet?
Methinks you really do protest too much in regards this issue however. It's painfully obvious to anyone who isn't located in the USA that Apple's map data (or Nokia's map data or TomTom's map data or whatever the source is), basically sucks. It's not a trivial thing either, the mistakes are huge and important. The omissions are glaring and disappointing.
Personally, it's a little irritating to me that you (presumably an American sitting somewhere in the USA), presumes to tell the rest of the world that the map data is fine, or as good as Google's when we can all see that it is not. You say you haven't seen proof of this yet, but you have no proof of the contrary either.
The issue has never been with the data inside the US but the data outside the US. The single survey that anyone points to that purports to measure the accuracy of maps outside of the USA was this which was a single, small, quick study done informally and located in the most popular and populace region of Canada. Even then it came out with mixed results and has specific caveats saying how it may not be representative of anything at all. This is not good evidence of anything at all.
Vancouver, the third largest city in Canada and the main city on the west coast of the country is full of huge errors, even downtown. The parks are all in the wrong place. The bike routes aren't mapped, whole streets are missing. 80-90% of the businesses don't show up. There are so many errors it's simply not worth asking for directions unless you are in a car.
Just because this evidence is anecdotal doesn't make it irrelevant. Especially in the absence of any real tests. You may be right about Apple maps being overall as good as Google maps. You may be wrong. Two things seem abundantly clear to me though:
- Anecdotal claims suggests HUGE problems
- No solid evidence to contradict these claims exists.