Rumor: Apple courting developers to support official gaming controller [u]

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  • Reply 81 of 108
    ifailifail Posts: 463member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by jragosta View Post





    Way to prove that you've missed the point entirely.



    There aren't billion dollar games for iOS devices (AFAIK) simply because the games are cheap and used for 'on the spot' playing. The dedicated gamers who live in their parents' basement and can't stop playing the game long enough to take a shower once a week or so aren't going to be the ones using mobile devices. But they're in the minority. Even with the price difference between iOS games (many of which are free) and console/PC games, mobile has already taken a big (and growing) slice of the pie.



    They're different audiences. No one is taking your console game away from you. That market will survive (or not) based on its own characteristics and the success of the people in that market in meeting the needs of the customers. The mobile market is entirely different and it's silly to hold it to the same standards.


     


    Way to generalize console gamers lol but anyways...why isn't there billion dollar games? The mobile gaming market is technically 4 times bigger than console gaming in terms of sheer users yet they aren't anywhere near the same revenue stream. The stagnant and slumping current console market still brings in far more money than mobile gaming will most likely ever hit in the next 10-20 years.


     


    The argument i think most people like myself grow incredibly tired of hearing is that Apple is going to magically transform an industry that caters to users on the go with time sinks that cost .99 or free with in-app purchases (FYI this is where the vast majority of mobile gaming revenue comes from if you didnt know, not actually the cost of the app, with ads being the second largest for mobile revenue in games) and just come in and wipe the floor in traditional living room gaming if they make a controller...the data simply just doesnt support it. Its also why the Ouya i believe will be a flop. 


     


    Mobile gamers aren't "loyal" to titles, one day they're playing your games and you're raking in big money, then a couple months later they've moved on and you're stuck (remember Draw Something? Look at how Zynga has been struggling for awhile now even when capitalizing on this mobile social industry). You can't count on this kind of revenue if you want to make it big in the living room. 

  • Reply 82 of 108
    ifailifail Posts: 463member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post


     


    Uh, yeah. Why can't you? I can touch type on my iPad just like any other system. 


     


    The only person that "can't" something is you. And that "can't" is, apparently, have the creativity to envision a system that MOVES THE CONTROLS to be under your fingers instead of the other way around. iOS games already do this.


     


    It shouldn't matter where my fingers go. I can have ten commands right in front of me at all times! Sixteen, actually. They should just always be there.



     


    I think you're missing what he's saying, i consider myself an extremely good gamer and i cannot utilize a touchscreen for controls without looking at the screen because there is no feedback to let you what you're touching. Basic controls are easy where the movement is on the left side of the screen and there is maybe one or two buttons on the right edge, start adding in more buttons and you see the real problem. 


     


    I've Airplayed Vice City from my iPad and it was horrific, it was impossible to look solely at the TV and hit the controls EVERY TIME. It made the game terrible to play and quite simply just frustrating that i quit and went back to just playing it on my ipad. Even with Final Fantasy 3, exploring the game is fine but when it comes to battles its a pain in the ass to play as its hard to always select what you want in battle if you're looking only at the TV. These control issues make the game a problem that shouldnt exist (its a problem when airplaying) and is why you need physical buttons to hit a wide array of games that can be more complex and intuitive than what solely a touchscreen can offer. 

  • Reply 83 of 108
    tallest skiltallest skil Posts: 43,388member


    Originally Posted by ifail View Post

    I think you're missing what he's saying…


     


    I know you're missing what I'm saying.

  • Reply 84 of 108
    jragostajragosta Posts: 10,473member
    ifail wrote: »
    Way to generalize console gamers lol but anyways...why isn't there billion dollar games? The mobile gaming market is technically 4 times bigger than console gaming in terms of sheer users yet they aren't anywhere near the same revenue stream. The stagnant and slumping current console market still brings in far more money than mobile gaming will most likely ever hit in the next 10-20 years.

    Obviously, the reason that the console gaming market brings in more revenue is $50 games instead of $0.99 (or less) games.

    But even with free and $0.99 games, the mobile market has gone from essentially nothing to 25% of the entire gaming market in just a couple of years. Given that rate of growth, it's unlikely that your 10-20 year projection is correct.

    But, again, it's irrelevant. They're different markets and are not cannibalizing each other. To a large degree, it is unlikely that any die-hard gamers are going to stop playing their massive games to switch to Fruit Ninja. (There will, however, be some loss at the low end - people who rarely play their expensive console might stop buying games for it).
  • Reply 85 of 108
    msanttimsantti Posts: 1,377member
    Apple believes touch controls are far superior to physical controls.
  • Reply 86 of 108
    MarvinMarvin Posts: 15,326moderator
    jragosta wrote: »
    But even with free and $0.99 games, the mobile market has gone from essentially nothing to 25% of the entire gaming market in just a couple of years. Given that rate of growth, it's unlikely that your 10-20 year projection is correct.

    But, again, it's irrelevant. They're different markets and are not cannibalizing each other. To a large degree, it is unlikely that any die-hard gamers are going to stop playing their massive games to switch to Fruit Ninja. (There will, however, be some loss at the low end - people who rarely play their expensive console might stop buying games for it).

    Stats will vary a bit but PC and console revenue is currently pretty close at around $20b each:

    http://www.pcper.com/news/Editorial/PC-Gaming-Surpass-Console-Gaming-Revenue-2015

    PC gamers number 1 billion:

    http://www.cinemablend.com/games/PC-Gaming-Hits-20-Billion-2012-Has-One-Billion-Gamers-Worldwide-54115.html

    Mobile looks to have reached about $9b:

    http://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20130301005213/en/Mobile-Gaming-Market-Grows-9-Billion-OBJE

    That puts mobile gaming at just under 20% of overall revenue since about 4 years ago, though the latter years are most significant. Sometimes mobile game revenues include the DS, PSP and Vita, which is about the same as the phone/tablet devices. The mobile devices are eating away at the portable consoles quite quickly and will contribute a lot to their growth.

    There are projections here that suggest by 2017, the PC, console and mobile will have a fairly even revenue split:

    http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2012-06-21-global-gaming-market-console-is-not-dead

    Consoles get locked into a 10 year lifecycle and PCs are really as powerful as they need to be for gaming so by 2017, they will pretty much all be equal platforms, especially if Intel makes bigger moves into mobile devices.

    I think people will still pick sides between casual gaming and immersive gaming but it shouldn't be dictated by platform. You can be a casual gamer on a PC or a phone and you will be able to enjoy immersive AAA titles on any platform. It just happens to be the case at the moment that primarily immersive games go on the PC and console, and casual games go on the phones and tablets partly due to the controls, price, hardware and target audience distribution. Higher prices, better hardware and software APIs coming this year and varied control schemes would change this.

    Apple's revenues would jump if they could sell lots of apps that command a higher price point. If there was a billion dollar franchise on iOS, they'd make 30% of it so it's definitely something they should promote.
  • Reply 87 of 108
    dunksdunks Posts: 1,254member
    And you can do that with iDevices.

    No you can't. Not currently. Unless the game requires minimal input your thumbs migrate away from the virtual "buttons", you lose precision and it is a generally horrible and frustrating gaming experience.

    Since this console iteration Nintendo jumped the shark it would have been nice to move to apple-only but I guess that was always going to be too much to ask.

    It's a real shame Steve never believed in gaming enough to cultivate it on the Mac platform in any meaningful sense. Even today major titles like Bio Shock Infinite launch on PC with a mac version "coming soon... (maybe)".
  • Reply 88 of 108
    nhtnht Posts: 4,522member
    pmz wrote: »

    -iOS developers have had ample opportunity to go all out, and develop game after game that use iOS device a controller, and Airplayed-content as the primary visual. There is nothing standing in the way of developers pushing for a console gaming experience with iOS device as the controller. There hasn't been anything in the way of that since iOS 5.

    You mean other than the relative scarcity of aTVs and the lag?
    ....but it hasn't happened save for a handful of not-so popular games. That is all the information anyone ever needs to know that there is NO market for Apps on AppleTV. 

    Not getting it people? Let me spell it out: NO ONE WANTS IT. WHY? THE EXPERIENCE SUCKS.

    Without dedicated game controllers I agree. It would suck.

    An official SDK for a kinect like system and traditional controllers would be required for success along with solid apple hardware.
    There is nothing BETTER, nothing  AS GOOD, nothing even ALMOST as good, about TV Apps compared to just using the device in your freaking hand....the one already capable of giving you what you want.

    Multiplayer on a common screen. Whether a dance game or a party game or a board game a large shared screen is better.

    A lag free large screen shooter is more immersive than a handheld experience.

    Your dumb assed assertion is the same as claiming that because movies play on a iPad really well that HDTVs have no merit or future.
  • Reply 89 of 108
    nhtnht Posts: 4,522member
    pmz wrote: »
    .

    Microsoft will lose completely, and utterly be OUT of gaming within 4 years.

    This is 100% unavoidable, and probably very close to accurate on time predictions. The average pc/console gamer will read that and say WHAT, you're crazy. Nope, this is what is happening in the market around you. Your ignorance of it does not change it one bit.

    It's funny but we have a MS store in our mall and the thing that draws a crowd are teens playing dance central in the hallway.

    Given that these players are very often girls (and cute ones) and they are good at the game tells me that the person that is ignorant about the state of gaming is you.

    Ms won't be out of the gaming industry in 4 years unless they totally f-up their next console. Plus you seem to fail to realize that the current consoles are near the end of their run.

    This is just like claiming the iPhone has lost popularity because sales are lower right before a refresh.
  • Reply 90 of 108
    jfanningjfanning Posts: 3,398member
    jragosta wrote: »
    Way to prove that you've missed the point entirely.

    What point have I missed?

    I am yet to see a games that has been released for iOS that is going to make me run out and drop $450 for the basic iPod touch
    jragosta wrote: »
    There aren't billion dollar games for iOS devices (AFAIK) simply because the games are cheap and used for 'on the spot' playing. The dedicated gamers who live in their parents' basement and can't stop playing the game long enough to take a shower once a week or so aren't going to be the ones using mobile devices. But they're in the minority. Even with the price difference between iOS games (many of which are free) and console/PC games, mobile has already taken a big (and growing) slice of the pie.

    considering how big Nintendo has been, especially in the mobile consoles, I would have thought mobile would have takes a big slice of the pie for quite a while now.
    jragosta wrote: »
    They're different audiences. No one is taking your console game away from you. That market will survive (or not) based on its own characteristics and the success of the people in that market in meeting the needs of the customers. The mobile market is entirely different and it's silly to hold it to the same standards.

    Different audiences? Are they? I think you will find there is quite a bit of overlap between them
  • Reply 91 of 108
    jfanningjfanning Posts: 3,398member
    Uh, yeah. Why can't you? I can touch type on my iPad just like any other system. 


    Congratulations, you have a one in a billion skill set there.
    The only person that "can't" something is you. And that "can't" is, apparently, have the creativity to envision a system that MOVES THE CONTROLS to be under your fingers instead of the other way around. iOS games already do this.

    It shouldn't matter where my fingers go. I can have ten commands right in front of me at all times! Sixteen, actually. They should just always be there.

    This is the crap that you say that pisses people off, you cannot honestly sit there and claim that you can by touch tell where all virtual controls are without looking at them.

    I can envision this crap all you like, unlike you I own a console that has touch screen and physical controls, and believe me it is terrible each time you are made to use the touch screen, each games places the controls in a stupid place, they don't flow well from one control to the next, I am yet to be convinced that this problem will be solved by a flat glass service with no feedback to tell you where you hands are, and no consistency between games. I don't sit there looking at my hands playing a console game, I wouldn't want to be sitting there staring at my hands playing a game using a tablet as a controller.

    The shape of a tablet leads it to being a terrible controller for a start
  • Reply 92 of 108
    jfanningjfanning Posts: 3,398member
    ifail wrote: »
    I think you're missing what he's saying, i consider myself an extremely good gamer and i cannot utilize a touchscreen for controls without looking at the screen because there is no feedback to let you what you're touching. Basic controls are easy where the movement is on the left side of the screen and there is maybe one or two buttons on the right edge, start adding in more buttons and you see the real problem. 

    I've Airplayed Vice City from my iPad and it was horrific, it was impossible to look solely at the TV and hit the controls EVERY TIME. It made the game terrible to play and quite simply just frustrating that i quit and went back to just playing it on my ipad. Even with Final Fantasy 3, exploring the game is fine but when it comes to battles its a pain in the ass to play as its hard to always select what you want in battle if you're looking only at the TV. These control issues make the game a problem that shouldnt exist (its a problem when airplaying) and is why you need physical buttons to hit a wide array of games that can be more complex and intuitive than what solely a touchscreen can offer. 

    Thank you, I'm glad to see others see the limitations
  • Reply 93 of 108
    nhtnht Posts: 4,522member
    jragosta wrote: »
    Way to prove that you've missed the point entirely.

    There aren't billion dollar games for iOS devices (AFAIK) simply because the games are cheap and used for 'on the spot' playing. The dedicated gamers who live in their parents' basement and can't stop playing the game long enough to take a shower once a week or so aren't going to be the ones using mobile devices. But they're in the minority. Even with the price difference between iOS games (many of which are free) and console/PC games, mobile has already taken a big (and growing) slice of the pie.

    They're different audiences. No one is taking your console game away from you. That market will survive (or not) based on its own characteristics and the success of the people in that market in meeting the needs of the customers. The mobile market is entirely different and it's silly to hold it to the same standards.

    If smelly basement dwelling hard core gamers are in the minority who are buying sufficient games to make some of the console titles blockbusters?

    The stereotype is stupid. I do not know a single kid in any of my three kids' peer groups that do not own a console. My kids are the oddballs since they don't have a 360.

    These same kids have iPads and iPod touches...or at least access to mom and dad's iOS devices. There is huge overlap in the demographics and anyone that doesn't get that is either old or doesn't have non-adult kids or both.
  • Reply 94 of 108
    tallest skiltallest skil Posts: 43,388member


    Originally Posted by Dunks View Post

    No you can't.


     


    I'm not going back and forth with someone who obviously has never played a game that does this. Go download the Epic Citadel demo (free, of course) and then come back and tell me either that I can't do it or it can't be done.image





    Originally Posted by jfanning View Post

    Congratulations, you have a one in a billion skill set there.


     


    Bringing facetiousness into a serious argument isn't the way for anyone to believe you.






    This is the crap that you say that pisses people off, you cannot honestly sit there and claim that you can by touch tell where all virtual controls are without looking at them.



     


    I can tell, by touch, where the virtual controls are without looking for them. I assume you're further upset now. I don't care. Claiming that it cannot be done is ludicrous, but the ease with which it is done has multiple factors involved.






    …each games places the controls in a stupid place…



     


    That's funny. It certainly doesn't sound like that's the problem of the specific software and not the overall concept. NOPE, not at all¡

  • Reply 95 of 108
    jfanningjfanning Posts: 3,398member
    I'm not going back and forth with someone who obviously has never played a game that does this. Go download the Epic Citadel demo (free, of course) and then come back and tell me either that I can't do it or it can't be done.:no:

    Don't own an iOS device, can't do this sorry. How about you download a PS Vita game and see the difference between physical and viritual controllers.
    Bringing facetiousness into a serious argument isn't the way for anyone to believe you.

    You won't believe me no matter what I say
    I can tell, by touch, where the virtual controls are without looking for them. I assume you're further upset now. I don't care. Claiming that it cannot be done is ludicrous, but the ease with which it is done has multiple factors involved.

    I'm not upset, I just don't beleive you. You can't tell me you can use a flat piece of glass as a replacement for a controller in games like Uncharted, or Call of Duty, even PC gamers don't use a flat object
    That's funny. It certainly doesn't sound like that's the problem of the specific software and not the overall concept. NOPE, not at all¡

    Yes it is, as each piece of software will place their butons in their own location, no consistancy between games
  • Reply 96 of 108
    tallest skiltallest skil Posts: 43,388member


    Originally Posted by jfanning View Post

    You won't believe me no matter what I say


     


    Only because I know the truth.






    I'm not upset, I just don't beleive you.



     


    That's fine. Try it out!






    You can't tell me you can use a flat piece of glass as a replacement for a controller in games like Uncharted, or Call of Duty, even PC gamers don't use a flat object



     


    I don't see why one couldn't.






    Yes it is, as each piece of software will place their butons in their own location, no consistancy between games



     


    *grizzled old man face* "You'se got ten fingers, don't'cha? Sounds t'me like there's plenty of consistency."

  • Reply 97 of 108
    zozmanzozman Posts: 393member

    Quote:


    Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post


     


    I don't see why one couldn't.


     



    Honestly, touch screen is good at lots of things, not great at everything, sometimes you need the right tool for the job, touchscreen doesn't give you the Resistance or feedback that people need, if you need to hammer a nail you get a hammer.


    controller is a good tool for the job (for most games), for fighting games its a joystick for car games a steering wheel, you could get a touch screen to do a marginal job at this, not the right tool for the job & not the full experience, the touch screen is a compromise, its that simple.  

  • Reply 98 of 108
    jfanningjfanning Posts: 3,398member
    Only because I know the truth.

    That is a quote we can use for almost all your replies.

    That's fine. Try it out!

    Can you please start reading, I have already said I didn't think it was practical
    I don't see why one couldn't.

    That's because you won't listen to anyone, I have already details some reasons
    *grizzled old man face* "You'se got ten fingers, don't'cha? Sounds t'me like there's plenty of consistency."

    It doesn't matter how many fingers I have, I said I don't think it is practical
  • Reply 99 of 108
    jragostajragosta Posts: 10,473member
    zozman wrote: »
    Honestly, touch screen is good at lots of things, not great at everything, sometimes you need the right tool for the job, touchscreen doesn't give you the Resistance or feedback that people need, if you need to hammer a nail you get a hammer.
    controller is a good tool for the job (for most games), for fighting games its a joystick for car games a steering wheel, you could get a touch screen to do a marginal job at this, not the right tool for the job & not the full experience, the touch screen is a compromise, its that simple.  

    Of course it's a compromise. It's for people who want to play games on their phone rather than carrying a console, TV, joystick, and generator with them everywhere they go.

    Mobile gaming and console/PC gaming are different things entirely - and they have (largely) different audiences.
  • Reply 100 of 108
    MarvinMarvin Posts: 15,326moderator
    jragosta wrote: »
    It's for people who want to play games on their phone rather than carrying a console, TV, joystick, and generator with them everywhere they go.

    That's a good point. iOS devices are mobile devices and typically controllers aren't made for mobile devices. You don't for example get controllers for the PSP, Vita or DS.

    People do use mice for laptops but taking controllers with you would be the exception.

    The biggest use case I'd actually see for a controller is for OS X gaming and when the tablet or phone is docked to a TV (which won't be commonplace). It depends how it would be made though. There are card games and board games that use iOS devices to link with an iPad. Controllers with displays could be used for this e.g you have Scrabble tiles on each controller and the board on the iPad so you can come up with words before it's your turn to play.
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