Yes, "logical fallacy" comment comes from the person that compares 18 months+ for iPhone as totally new concept, not just a product with new desktop PC form factor , however complicated it could be? :D OMG...
1. You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.
2. You have absolutely no idea what the iPhone is.
3. You have absolutely no idea what the difference between the iPhone and previous phones is.
4. You have absolutely no idea what the Mac Pro is.
5. You have absolutely no idea what the difference between the last Mac Pro and this Mac Pro is.
This is all glaringly obvious. Don't talk about the Mac Pro until you can understand what the change entails.
Apple is not the largest IT company in the world, not in the metrics that would apply here. You're equating revenue and profits and market cap with physical engineering resources and manpower.
For its size, Apple is actually pretty small. I mean, they had to pull Mac engineers over to iOS to finish it.
So yeah, I'm guessing such a revolutionary design probably took several years. It may also have been on hold until technology advanced enough, hence the spec bump last year.
I agree that engineering teams are not big, but this is again part of the story. I am pointing out whatever the reasons and excuses anyone can find, such company with such status should be able to avoid too long product gaps or periods when people are getting very impatient or even switch. If it doesn't happen, then this is a failure. Bigger or smaller, but still failure, o mistake, or whatever, it is just not really right. I take this for granted, because I am not religious about anything and my saying is: if you are working, then you are bound to make a mistake...
Example: 2 of my Android programmers colleagues at work finally changed old Mac pros for HP crap 2 months ago. They cried seeing new Mac pro, but when found out about "later this year" they calmed down realized they wouldn't want to wait for that long. For myself I can say I am served with MacBooks well, but this was not the case for them. I don't want this to happen very often, above all, I don't want this to happen to iPhone. For a very good reason. I want iPhone line to be as solid and strong as iPad's.
No doubt about that. I share my experience and my views, I am not challenging any facts and arguments. I don't deny the figure or trend when I see it. I only challenge and deny possibility that Apple is flawless. I also deny being stupid not to share exact views with people claiming Apple is perfect.
As I said to my colleagues Apple will release really new Mac pro, I am saying now Apple will release larger iPhone and I am happy to discuss the reasons for with people having any solid counter arguments. What I surely won't do anymore is posting a word to characters posting rubbish as above....
What actually is ridiculous in my post? What you don't agree with and who is talking about Fandroids? I agree about them hating Apple, but what does this has to do with large numbers of larger screen being sold? I see every day young women and girls to go massively on S just because of larger screen and you want to say they are Fandroids? Majority of S3 and S4 buyer are not Fandroids, they just want a big phone. DOn't be so blind and start to comprehend this fact. Apple is vastly loosing market share in this segment, especially in Europe. Let me remind you that Europe was and still is the most matured mobile market and good indicator of the trends and I am afraid that many people from USA just don't understand that still seeing iPhone as extended iPod.
Please. Europe didn't see iPhone coming in 2007. Where was your "good indicator of the trends" back then? Am I wrong? How's Nokia these days? How's Symbian doing? If the future was left to Europe to predict, we'd have more of the same: keyboard phones with tiny displays, crappy cameras, and embedded operating systems programmable only through Java ME. That was their vision of the future.
No, it's getting to the crux of the actual argument.
So many jokes to make.
Be... cause it will be the newest phone. Just like every other generation.
You just can't admit you're wrong, can you? It's not getting to the crux of the argument. Comparing an entirely different platform that has only one size against another platform over if larger phones sell is not a proper comparison. If you stick with everything else being equal, such as the OS, then the larger phones sell better. The iPhone is a unique offering that cannot be included in the comparison. If and when Apple comes out with a larger iPhone it will sell more because there is a market for it that's larger than the market for smaller screens. I'll go so far as to say if they do, there will be a sustained level of higher sales for the larger device, unless something fundamental changes in the market, itself. People prefer larger screens on just about everything. They prefer to have a 27" screen on their iMac over a smaller one. They prefer to have 7" screens in their cars for navigation systems over 4" screens. They like readability. There is a limit, as the market favors a 15" laptop over a 17" for portability's sake. The Galaxy Note line does not sell more than the Galaxy line. Flat out, a bigger iPhone will sell better.
I just don't get this faction of people who seem to focus their anger on Tim Cook, because they think Apple should listen to them. Apple makes things for the markets they serve: they are not your personal electronics design studio. Some forum posters try to state this in terms of Apple's competitiveness ("Apple is falling behind Samsung! OMG OMG OMG") as if they would be ashamed to buy a phone from the loser in the Great Screen Size Wars. It's simple: this is a market and we are consumers. We get to make a choice about how we spend our money. And that's it. If 4 inches is too small for you, buy a Phablet. That's how this works.
If history has shown us anything, Apple has succeeded more when it has gone against the grain than when it has gone with the grain. When they came out with clones...failure. When they took everything back in-house and came back out with the all-in-one computer, the iMac, it sold like hotcakes compared to how well the Performas sold. I have no doubt about that. However, occasionally they're wrong. Apple stuck with the original Mac design well into the 1990's and its sales slumped really bad. The market moved to larger screens with full color that were affordable. The only affordable Mac was the 9" screen size that finally introduced color in 1993. Mac sales had been on a downhill slide for awhile by then.
[quote name="ruel24" url="/t/158198/editorial-ios-7-shows-how-apple-is-leading-mobile-computing/240#post_2352173"]You just can't admit you're wrong, can you?[/QUOTE]
Only because I'm not.
[QUOTE]Comparing an entirely different platform that has only one size against another platform over if larger phones sell is not a proper comparison.[/QUOTE]
Samsung does not exist in a vacuum.
[QUOTE]If and when Apple comes out with a larger iPhone it will sell more because there is a market for it that's larger than the market for smaller screens.[/QUOTE]
There you go, saying that again. You've no evidence, but hey.
[QUOTE]People prefer larger screens on just about everything.[/QUOTE]
Citation needed.
[QUOTE]They prefer to have a 27" screen on their iMac over a smaller one.[/QUOTE]
You just can't admit you're wrong, can you? It's not getting to the crux of the argument. Comparing an entirely different platform that has only one size against another platform over if larger phones sell is not a proper comparison. If you stick with everything else being equal, such as the OS, then the larger phones sell better. The iPhone is a unique offering that cannot be included in the comparison. If and when Apple comes out with a larger iPhone it will sell more because there is a market for it that's larger than the market for smaller screens. I'll go so far as to say if they do, there will be a sustained level of higher sales for the larger device, unless something fundamental changes in the market, itself. People prefer larger screens on just about everything. They prefer to have a 27" screen on their iMac over a smaller one. They prefer to have 7" screens in their cars for navigation systems over 4" screens. They like readability. There is a limit, as the market favors a 15" laptop over a 17" for portability's sake. The Galaxy Note line does not sell more than the Galaxy line. Flat out, a bigger iPhone will sell better.
I agree that a larger version of the iPhone would very likely outsell the current 4" version. The only way it wouldn't is if Apple prices it insanely high in price by comparison. If they are priced the same it would easily outsell the 4" model. One reason for the lower sales of the 17" MBP is that Apple priced them just too high compared to the nearly identical 15" versions. They certainly sold in greater quantity than the Mac Pro which was not discontinued. The main reason I think Apple discontinued the 17" was not sales so much as the display tech. The 15.4-inch display on the MacBook Pro has a 2880-by-1800 resolution and packs over 5 million pixels into the panel. The likely reason for dumping the 17" is that panel makers have not yet perfected a technique for making these panels at the appropriate cost and yield for Apple to be able to continue to offer a 17-inch MacBook Pro. When LCD panel makers get better at making 'retina' display screen, and 17-inch panels start rolling off the production lines at the right price point, it wouldn't surprise me one bit if Apple starts to offer 'retina' display enabled 17-inch MacBook Pro systems once again. I think the same think applies to a larger iPhone. When the panel makers can meet Apple's demands for resolution, energy demands, and meet their price point we will see a larger iPhone. And when that happens it will immediately make the current 4" iPhone seem very obsolete.
Please. Europe didn't see iPhone coming in 2007. Where was your "good indicator of the trends" back then? Am I wrong? How's Nokia these days? How's Symbian doing? If the future was left to Europe to predict, we'd have more of the same: keyboard phones with tiny displays, crappy cameras, and embedded operating systems programmable only through Java ME. That was their vision of the future.
You mixed pots and plates. Europe is not Nokia and Nokia is not Europe. USA also didn't see iPhone coming. How's Motorola by the way?
I am talking about Europe as a market and not european based manufacturers if any left at all... It seems you share some personal problems will tallest unskilled....
You just can't admit you're wrong, can you? It's not getting to the crux of the argument. Comparing an entirely different platform that has only one size against another platform over if larger phones sell is not a proper comparison. If you stick with everything else being equal, such as the OS, then the larger phones sell better. The iPhone is a unique offering that cannot be included in the comparison. If and when Apple comes out with a larger iPhone it will sell more because there is a market for it that's larger than the market for smaller screens. I'll go so far as to say if they do, there will be a sustained level of higher sales for the larger device, unless something fundamental changes in the market, itself. People prefer larger screens on just about everything. They prefer to have a 27" screen on their iMac over a smaller one. They prefer to have 7" screens in their cars for navigation systems over 4" screens. They like readability. There is a limit, as the market favors a 15" laptop over a 17" for portability's sake. The Galaxy Note line does not sell more than the Galaxy line. Flat out, a bigger iPhone will sell better.
Don't talk to him with arguments. He is immune to logic and sense.
If history has shown us anything, Apple has succeeded more when it has gone against the grain than when it has gone with the grain. When they came out with clones...failure. When they took everything back in-house and came back out with the all-in-one computer, the iMac, it sold like hotcakes compared to how well the Performas sold. I have no doubt about that. However, occasionally they're wrong. Apple stuck with the original Mac design well into the 1990's and its sales slumped really bad. The market moved to larger screens with full color that were affordable. The only affordable Mac was the 9" screen size that finally introduced color in 1993. Mac sales had been on a downhill slide for awhile by then.
You gave very good comparison, but I doubt the case is the same with iPhones. Back then Apple was crippled badly in terms of innovation, vision and strategy, today they have technological limitation in doing it right their way, not having equally good plan B. Apple knows very well they failed in screen size. For now.
When the panel makers can meet Apple's demands for resolution, energy demands, and meet their price point we will see a larger iPhone. And when that happens it will immediately make the current 4" iPhone seem very obsolete.
This can be toooooo late. If there is no larger screen iPhone this year, Apple better to follow 4" niche.
If somebody would ask me how do I imagine iPhone product line I would propose 2 variants:
1. "iPhone 5 rules"
- iPhone 5 4" with same 326dpi
- one older iPhone 5 version (instead of 3 today)
- larger screen iPhone with 4.6" and dpi something around 400
- cheaper 4" model with dpi half of the large model, i.e. something around 200dpi, still offering a very good value and picture quality
Problem with this approach is introduction of new screen form factor making it more complicated for developers...
2. "Legacy approach"
- iPhone 5 rises from 4" to 4.6", getting very high dpi, way over 400 dpi
- cheaper 3.5-4" iPhone with half of dpi, something over 200, perhaps even 4:3 ratio again, making it effectively half size to larger in terms of screen resolution
- one older model for each above
In this way all the phones could run more or less existing software. Perhaps this version is more feasible with 5" size of large model, but I think 5" is too large, even for 16:9 ratio.
THe catch is any variant has trade-offs and it seems Apple is not prepared to make any of them. It seems like they don't want to be mainstream company, like they feel lost in space and time where expectations to them are made as to main players... Still, their decision...
Don't talk to him with arguments. He is immune to logic and sense.
Says the person who doesn't have a flipping clue what went into making the new Mac Pro and refuses to accept any answer but "they took too long for a 'simple redesign'".
This can be toooooo late. If there is no larger screen iPhone this year, Apple better to follow 4" niche.
If somebody would ask me how do I imagine iPhone product line I would propose 2 variants:
1. "iPhone 5 rules"
- iPhone 5 4" with same 326dpi
- one older iPhone 5 version (instead of 3 today)
- larger screen iPhone with 4.6" and dpi something around 400
- cheaper 4" model with dpi half of the large model, i.e. something around 200dpi, still offering a very good value and picture quality
Problem with this approach is introduction of new screen form factor making it more complicated for developers...
2. "Legacy approach"
- iPhone 5 rises from 4" to 4.6", getting very high dpi, way over 400 dpi
- cheaper 3.5-4" iPhone with half of dpi, something over 200, perhaps even 4:3 ratio again, making it effectively half size to larger in terms of screen resolution
- one older model for each above
In this way all the phones could run more or less existing software. Perhaps this version is more feasible with 5" size of large model, but I think 5" is too large, even for 16:9 ratio.
THe catch is any variant has trade-offs and it seems Apple is not prepared to make any of them. It seems like they don't want to be mainstream company, like they feel lost in space and time where expectations to them are made as to main players... Still, their decision...
That is far too many models and screen resolutions. My prediction is a cheaper iPhone this year along side the iPhone 5. Both will be 4" but will differentiate in other areas like storage, camera, CPU/GPU so that there is a clear reason to choose one over the other depending on your budget and needs. This would likely mean they would stop selling previous year models.
Then next year they can introduce a larger iPhone. Developers will no longer need to support 3.5" much longer and will concentrate on using this year to get all their apps optimized for 4" and many still don't support it natively. Then next year Apple can release a larger iPhone so it will not be as big a shock or hassle for developers. They would simply need to support 2 resolutions just like they do today with 3.5" and 4". I don't think waiting until next year will doom Apple by any means. They were simply waiting for technology to catch up with what they want to do with a larger screen and were unwilling to make compromises. iOS 7 will help keep people in the fold until they release a larger iPhone.
That is far too many models and screen resolutions. My prediction is a cheaper iPhone this year along side the iPhone 5. Both will be 4" but will differentiate in other areas like storage, camera, CPU/GPU so that there is a clear reason to choose one over the other depending on your budget and needs. This would likely mean they would stop selling previous year models.
Then next year they can introduce a larger iPhone. Developers will no longer need to support 3.5" much longer and will concentrate on using this year to get all their apps optimized for 4" and many still don't support it natively. Then next year Apple can release a larger iPhone so it will not be as big a shock or hassle for developers. They would simply need to support 2 resolutions just like they do today with 3.5" and 4". I don't think waiting until next year will doom Apple by any means. They were simply waiting for technology to catch up with what they want to do with a larger screen and were unwilling to make compromises. iOS 7 will help keep people in the fold until they release a larger iPhone.
First scenario has 2 screen ratios and 3 resolutions. It's just a bit more complicated as today. Let us be honest, how many apps really differentiate between 3.5 and 5" today? For easy tasks I just put a scroll view of 4" iPhone 5 size and then adjust content size for 3.5", sometimes I put more effort into it and make different stuff for different sizes as well, but this is already so-called fragmenting. Same for graphics: sometimes I use only 2X graphic elements, sometimes single resolution as well.
Second scenario is even simpler than today's. Keep also in mind that iOS7 does not support 3GS anymore, so the compatibility chart is getting shorter, at least in graphics elements case. I don't believe majority of developers will still maintain 3.5" single anymore...
Interesting point are also dynamic types. This points to 2 things:
- Apple admits screen size does matter and many people may have trouble reading from today's screen sizes
- Apple admits iOS7 fonts may be too thin to read without hassle for many of users
But there is also "one more thing" with it: what if this points to "more dynamic" approach to screen sizes? Does it point to new screen format?
You gave very good comparison, but I doubt the case is the same with iPhones. Back then Apple was crippled badly in terms of innovation, vision and strategy, today they have technological limitation in doing it right their way, not having equally good plan B. Apple knows very well they failed in screen size. For now.
I'd argue you're wrong. Back in the day, Apple was very innovative. As a matter of fact, it was too innovative, one could argue. The Newton? The Duo? Very innovative. Their problem was they didn't know how to market any of it, and some of it was a little too green for the market, in the case of the Newton.
I agree that a larger version of the iPhone would very likely outsell the current 4" version. The only way it wouldn't is if Apple prices it insanely high in price by comparison. If they are priced the same it would easily outsell the 4" model. One reason for the lower sales of the 17" MBP is that Apple priced them just too high compared to the nearly identical 15" versions. They certainly sold in greater quantity than the Mac Pro which was not discontinued. The main reason I think Apple discontinued the 17" was not sales so much as the display tech. The 15.4-inch display on the MacBook Pro has a 2880-by-1800 resolution and packs over 5 million pixels into the panel. The likely reason for dumping the 17" is that panel makers have not yet perfected a technique for making these panels at the appropriate cost and yield for Apple to be able to continue to offer a 17-inch MacBook Pro. When LCD panel makers get better at making 'retina' display screen, and 17-inch panels start rolling off the production lines at the right price point, it wouldn't surprise me one bit if Apple starts to offer 'retina' display enabled 17-inch MacBook Pro systems once again. I think the same think applies to a larger iPhone. When the panel makers can meet Apple's demands for resolution, energy demands, and meet their price point we will see a larger iPhone. And when that happens it will immediately make the current 4" iPhone seem very obsolete.
Well, to be honest, the entire laptop market has moved away from 17" models. Just look around. There are still some out there, particularly in gaming devices, but mostly the market is looking toward a sweet spot of 13-15" models that are more portable.
I'd argue you're wrong. Back in the day, Apple was very innovative. As a matter of fact, it was too innovative, one could argue. The Newton? The Duo? Very innovative. Their problem was they didn't know how to market any of it, and some of it was a little too green for the market, in the case of the Newton.
YOu caught me with Newton
I had Macs in mind actually, forgot all about Newton...If you look at Macs at the time as revenue and profit generators, the lost innovation almost completely, Power PC and Performa line can hardly be counted for...
ANd look what happened later: iMac, iBook, iMac Flat Panel, Cube, Powerbook Titanium, Air, Mac Pro,...
Comments
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil
I see you using them, however, while I'm not.
Need I say more? You've already said it! Three ways now!
Great way to end a night.
there is a world outside USA, you know?
and yes, fabulous arguments again! THe smilie on 25K+ posts badge is also in the place.
1. You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.
2. You have absolutely no idea what the iPhone is.
3. You have absolutely no idea what the difference between the iPhone and previous phones is.
4. You have absolutely no idea what the Mac Pro is.
5. You have absolutely no idea what the difference between the last Mac Pro and this Mac Pro is.
This is all glaringly obvious. Don't talk about the Mac Pro until you can understand what the change entails.
There's a world outside the EU too.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pendergast
Apple is not the largest IT company in the world, not in the metrics that would apply here. You're equating revenue and profits and market cap with physical engineering resources and manpower.
For its size, Apple is actually pretty small. I mean, they had to pull Mac engineers over to iOS to finish it.
So yeah, I'm guessing such a revolutionary design probably took several years. It may also have been on hold until technology advanced enough, hence the spec bump last year.
I agree that engineering teams are not big, but this is again part of the story. I am pointing out whatever the reasons and excuses anyone can find, such company with such status should be able to avoid too long product gaps or periods when people are getting very impatient or even switch. If it doesn't happen, then this is a failure. Bigger or smaller, but still failure, o mistake, or whatever, it is just not really right. I take this for granted, because I am not religious about anything and my saying is: if you are working, then you are bound to make a mistake...
Example: 2 of my Android programmers colleagues at work finally changed old Mac pros for HP crap 2 months ago. They cried seeing new Mac pro, but when found out about "later this year" they calmed down realized they wouldn't want to wait for that long. For myself I can say I am served with MacBooks well, but this was not the case for them. I don't want this to happen very often, above all, I don't want this to happen to iPhone. For a very good reason. I want iPhone line to be as solid and strong as iPad's.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pendergast
There's a world outside the EU too.
No doubt about that. I share my experience and my views, I am not challenging any facts and arguments. I don't deny the figure or trend when I see it. I only challenge and deny possibility that Apple is flawless. I also deny being stupid not to share exact views with people claiming Apple is perfect.
As I said to my colleagues Apple will release really new Mac pro, I am saying now Apple will release larger iPhone and I am happy to discuss the reasons for with people having any solid counter arguments. What I surely won't do anymore is posting a word to characters posting rubbish as above...
Quote:
Originally Posted by poksi
What actually is ridiculous in my post? What you don't agree with and who is talking about Fandroids? I agree about them hating Apple, but what does this has to do with large numbers of larger screen being sold? I see every day young women and girls to go massively on S just because of larger screen and you want to say they are Fandroids? Majority of S3 and S4 buyer are not Fandroids, they just want a big phone. DOn't be so blind and start to comprehend this fact. Apple is vastly loosing market share in this segment, especially in Europe. Let me remind you that Europe was and still is the most matured mobile market and good indicator of the trends and I am afraid that many people from USA just don't understand that still seeing iPhone as extended iPod.
Please. Europe didn't see iPhone coming in 2007. Where was your "good indicator of the trends" back then? Am I wrong? How's Nokia these days? How's Symbian doing? If the future was left to Europe to predict, we'd have more of the same: keyboard phones with tiny displays, crappy cameras, and embedded operating systems programmable only through Java ME. That was their vision of the future.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil
No, it's getting to the crux of the actual argument.
So many jokes to make.
Be... cause it will be the newest phone. Just like every other generation.
You just can't admit you're wrong, can you? It's not getting to the crux of the argument. Comparing an entirely different platform that has only one size against another platform over if larger phones sell is not a proper comparison. If you stick with everything else being equal, such as the OS, then the larger phones sell better. The iPhone is a unique offering that cannot be included in the comparison. If and when Apple comes out with a larger iPhone it will sell more because there is a market for it that's larger than the market for smaller screens. I'll go so far as to say if they do, there will be a sustained level of higher sales for the larger device, unless something fundamental changes in the market, itself. People prefer larger screens on just about everything. They prefer to have a 27" screen on their iMac over a smaller one. They prefer to have 7" screens in their cars for navigation systems over 4" screens. They like readability. There is a limit, as the market favors a 15" laptop over a 17" for portability's sake. The Galaxy Note line does not sell more than the Galaxy line. Flat out, a bigger iPhone will sell better.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suddenly Newton
I just don't get this faction of people who seem to focus their anger on Tim Cook, because they think Apple should listen to them. Apple makes things for the markets they serve: they are not your personal electronics design studio. Some forum posters try to state this in terms of Apple's competitiveness ("Apple is falling behind Samsung! OMG OMG OMG") as if they would be ashamed to buy a phone from the loser in the Great Screen Size Wars. It's simple: this is a market and we are consumers. We get to make a choice about how we spend our money. And that's it. If 4 inches is too small for you, buy a Phablet. That's how this works.
If history has shown us anything, Apple has succeeded more when it has gone against the grain than when it has gone with the grain. When they came out with clones...failure. When they took everything back in-house and came back out with the all-in-one computer, the iMac, it sold like hotcakes compared to how well the Performas sold. I have no doubt about that. However, occasionally they're wrong. Apple stuck with the original Mac design well into the 1990's and its sales slumped really bad. The market moved to larger screens with full color that were affordable. The only affordable Mac was the 9" screen size that finally introduced color in 1993. Mac sales had been on a downhill slide for awhile by then.
Only because I'm not.
[QUOTE]Comparing an entirely different platform that has only one size against another platform over if larger phones sell is not a proper comparison.[/QUOTE]
Samsung does not exist in a vacuum.
[QUOTE]If and when Apple comes out with a larger iPhone it will sell more because there is a market for it that's larger than the market for smaller screens.[/QUOTE]
There you go, saying that again. You've no evidence, but hey.
[QUOTE]People prefer larger screens on just about everything.[/QUOTE]
Citation needed.
[QUOTE]They prefer to have a 27" screen on their iMac over a smaller one.[/QUOTE]
Citation needed.
[QUOTE]There is a limit...[/QUOTE]
Ah, so you're just totally wrong, then.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ruel24
You just can't admit you're wrong, can you? It's not getting to the crux of the argument. Comparing an entirely different platform that has only one size against another platform over if larger phones sell is not a proper comparison. If you stick with everything else being equal, such as the OS, then the larger phones sell better. The iPhone is a unique offering that cannot be included in the comparison. If and when Apple comes out with a larger iPhone it will sell more because there is a market for it that's larger than the market for smaller screens. I'll go so far as to say if they do, there will be a sustained level of higher sales for the larger device, unless something fundamental changes in the market, itself. People prefer larger screens on just about everything. They prefer to have a 27" screen on their iMac over a smaller one. They prefer to have 7" screens in their cars for navigation systems over 4" screens. They like readability. There is a limit, as the market favors a 15" laptop over a 17" for portability's sake. The Galaxy Note line does not sell more than the Galaxy line. Flat out, a bigger iPhone will sell better.
I agree that a larger version of the iPhone would very likely outsell the current 4" version. The only way it wouldn't is if Apple prices it insanely high in price by comparison. If they are priced the same it would easily outsell the 4" model. One reason for the lower sales of the 17" MBP is that Apple priced them just too high compared to the nearly identical 15" versions. They certainly sold in greater quantity than the Mac Pro which was not discontinued. The main reason I think Apple discontinued the 17" was not sales so much as the display tech. The 15.4-inch display on the MacBook Pro has a 2880-by-1800 resolution and packs over 5 million pixels into the panel. The likely reason for dumping the 17" is that panel makers have not yet perfected a technique for making these panels at the appropriate cost and yield for Apple to be able to continue to offer a 17-inch MacBook Pro. When LCD panel makers get better at making 'retina' display screen, and 17-inch panels start rolling off the production lines at the right price point, it wouldn't surprise me one bit if Apple starts to offer 'retina' display enabled 17-inch MacBook Pro systems once again. I think the same think applies to a larger iPhone. When the panel makers can meet Apple's demands for resolution, energy demands, and meet their price point we will see a larger iPhone. And when that happens it will immediately make the current 4" iPhone seem very obsolete.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suddenly Newton
Please. Europe didn't see iPhone coming in 2007. Where was your "good indicator of the trends" back then? Am I wrong? How's Nokia these days? How's Symbian doing? If the future was left to Europe to predict, we'd have more of the same: keyboard phones with tiny displays, crappy cameras, and embedded operating systems programmable only through Java ME. That was their vision of the future.
You mixed pots and plates. Europe is not Nokia and Nokia is not Europe. USA also didn't see iPhone coming. How's Motorola by the way?
I am talking about Europe as a market and not european based manufacturers if any left at all... It seems you share some personal problems will tallest unskilled....
Quote:
Originally Posted by ruel24
You just can't admit you're wrong, can you? It's not getting to the crux of the argument. Comparing an entirely different platform that has only one size against another platform over if larger phones sell is not a proper comparison. If you stick with everything else being equal, such as the OS, then the larger phones sell better. The iPhone is a unique offering that cannot be included in the comparison. If and when Apple comes out with a larger iPhone it will sell more because there is a market for it that's larger than the market for smaller screens. I'll go so far as to say if they do, there will be a sustained level of higher sales for the larger device, unless something fundamental changes in the market, itself. People prefer larger screens on just about everything. They prefer to have a 27" screen on their iMac over a smaller one. They prefer to have 7" screens in their cars for navigation systems over 4" screens. They like readability. There is a limit, as the market favors a 15" laptop over a 17" for portability's sake. The Galaxy Note line does not sell more than the Galaxy line. Flat out, a bigger iPhone will sell better.
Don't talk to him with arguments. He is immune to logic and sense.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ruel24
If history has shown us anything, Apple has succeeded more when it has gone against the grain than when it has gone with the grain. When they came out with clones...failure. When they took everything back in-house and came back out with the all-in-one computer, the iMac, it sold like hotcakes compared to how well the Performas sold. I have no doubt about that. However, occasionally they're wrong. Apple stuck with the original Mac design well into the 1990's and its sales slumped really bad. The market moved to larger screens with full color that were affordable. The only affordable Mac was the 9" screen size that finally introduced color in 1993. Mac sales had been on a downhill slide for awhile by then.
You gave very good comparison, but I doubt the case is the same with iPhones. Back then Apple was crippled badly in terms of innovation, vision and strategy, today they have technological limitation in doing it right their way, not having equally good plan B. Apple knows very well they failed in screen size. For now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gwmac
When the panel makers can meet Apple's demands for resolution, energy demands, and meet their price point we will see a larger iPhone. And when that happens it will immediately make the current 4" iPhone seem very obsolete.
This can be toooooo late. If there is no larger screen iPhone this year, Apple better to follow 4" niche.
If somebody would ask me how do I imagine iPhone product line I would propose 2 variants:
1. "iPhone 5 rules"
- iPhone 5 4" with same 326dpi
- one older iPhone 5 version (instead of 3 today)
- larger screen iPhone with 4.6" and dpi something around 400
- cheaper 4" model with dpi half of the large model, i.e. something around 200dpi, still offering a very good value and picture quality
Problem with this approach is introduction of new screen form factor making it more complicated for developers...
2. "Legacy approach"
- iPhone 5 rises from 4" to 4.6", getting very high dpi, way over 400 dpi
- cheaper 3.5-4" iPhone with half of dpi, something over 200, perhaps even 4:3 ratio again, making it effectively half size to larger in terms of screen resolution
- one older model for each above
In this way all the phones could run more or less existing software. Perhaps this version is more feasible with 5" size of large model, but I think 5" is too large, even for 16:9 ratio.
THe catch is any variant has trade-offs and it seems Apple is not prepared to make any of them. It seems like they don't want to be mainstream company, like they feel lost in space and time where expectations to them are made as to main players... Still, their decision...
Says the person who doesn't have a flipping clue what went into making the new Mac Pro and refuses to accept any answer but "they took too long for a 'simple redesign'".
Quote:
Originally Posted by poksi
This can be toooooo late. If there is no larger screen iPhone this year, Apple better to follow 4" niche.
If somebody would ask me how do I imagine iPhone product line I would propose 2 variants:
1. "iPhone 5 rules"
- iPhone 5 4" with same 326dpi
- one older iPhone 5 version (instead of 3 today)
- larger screen iPhone with 4.6" and dpi something around 400
- cheaper 4" model with dpi half of the large model, i.e. something around 200dpi, still offering a very good value and picture quality
Problem with this approach is introduction of new screen form factor making it more complicated for developers...
2. "Legacy approach"
- iPhone 5 rises from 4" to 4.6", getting very high dpi, way over 400 dpi
- cheaper 3.5-4" iPhone with half of dpi, something over 200, perhaps even 4:3 ratio again, making it effectively half size to larger in terms of screen resolution
- one older model for each above
In this way all the phones could run more or less existing software. Perhaps this version is more feasible with 5" size of large model, but I think 5" is too large, even for 16:9 ratio.
THe catch is any variant has trade-offs and it seems Apple is not prepared to make any of them. It seems like they don't want to be mainstream company, like they feel lost in space and time where expectations to them are made as to main players... Still, their decision...
That is far too many models and screen resolutions. My prediction is a cheaper iPhone this year along side the iPhone 5. Both will be 4" but will differentiate in other areas like storage, camera, CPU/GPU so that there is a clear reason to choose one over the other depending on your budget and needs. This would likely mean they would stop selling previous year models.
Then next year they can introduce a larger iPhone. Developers will no longer need to support 3.5" much longer and will concentrate on using this year to get all their apps optimized for 4" and many still don't support it natively. Then next year Apple can release a larger iPhone so it will not be as big a shock or hassle for developers. They would simply need to support 2 resolutions just like they do today with 3.5" and 4". I don't think waiting until next year will doom Apple by any means. They were simply waiting for technology to catch up with what they want to do with a larger screen and were unwilling to make compromises. iOS 7 will help keep people in the fold until they release a larger iPhone.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gwmac
That is far too many models and screen resolutions. My prediction is a cheaper iPhone this year along side the iPhone 5. Both will be 4" but will differentiate in other areas like storage, camera, CPU/GPU so that there is a clear reason to choose one over the other depending on your budget and needs. This would likely mean they would stop selling previous year models.
Then next year they can introduce a larger iPhone. Developers will no longer need to support 3.5" much longer and will concentrate on using this year to get all their apps optimized for 4" and many still don't support it natively. Then next year Apple can release a larger iPhone so it will not be as big a shock or hassle for developers. They would simply need to support 2 resolutions just like they do today with 3.5" and 4". I don't think waiting until next year will doom Apple by any means. They were simply waiting for technology to catch up with what they want to do with a larger screen and were unwilling to make compromises. iOS 7 will help keep people in the fold until they release a larger iPhone.
First scenario has 2 screen ratios and 3 resolutions. It's just a bit more complicated as today. Let us be honest, how many apps really differentiate between 3.5 and 5" today? For easy tasks I just put a scroll view of 4" iPhone 5 size and then adjust content size for 3.5", sometimes I put more effort into it and make different stuff for different sizes as well, but this is already so-called fragmenting. Same for graphics: sometimes I use only 2X graphic elements, sometimes single resolution as well.
Second scenario is even simpler than today's. Keep also in mind that iOS7 does not support 3GS anymore, so the compatibility chart is getting shorter, at least in graphics elements case. I don't believe majority of developers will still maintain 3.5" single anymore...
Interesting point are also dynamic types. This points to 2 things:
- Apple admits screen size does matter and many people may have trouble reading from today's screen sizes
- Apple admits iOS7 fonts may be too thin to read without hassle for many of users
But there is also "one more thing" with it: what if this points to "more dynamic" approach to screen sizes? Does it point to new screen format?
Quote:
Originally Posted by poksi
You gave very good comparison, but I doubt the case is the same with iPhones. Back then Apple was crippled badly in terms of innovation, vision and strategy, today they have technological limitation in doing it right their way, not having equally good plan B. Apple knows very well they failed in screen size. For now.
I'd argue you're wrong. Back in the day, Apple was very innovative. As a matter of fact, it was too innovative, one could argue. The Newton? The Duo? Very innovative. Their problem was they didn't know how to market any of it, and some of it was a little too green for the market, in the case of the Newton.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gwmac
I agree that a larger version of the iPhone would very likely outsell the current 4" version. The only way it wouldn't is if Apple prices it insanely high in price by comparison. If they are priced the same it would easily outsell the 4" model. One reason for the lower sales of the 17" MBP is that Apple priced them just too high compared to the nearly identical 15" versions. They certainly sold in greater quantity than the Mac Pro which was not discontinued. The main reason I think Apple discontinued the 17" was not sales so much as the display tech. The 15.4-inch display on the MacBook Pro has a 2880-by-1800 resolution and packs over 5 million pixels into the panel. The likely reason for dumping the 17" is that panel makers have not yet perfected a technique for making these panels at the appropriate cost and yield for Apple to be able to continue to offer a 17-inch MacBook Pro. When LCD panel makers get better at making 'retina' display screen, and 17-inch panels start rolling off the production lines at the right price point, it wouldn't surprise me one bit if Apple starts to offer 'retina' display enabled 17-inch MacBook Pro systems once again. I think the same think applies to a larger iPhone. When the panel makers can meet Apple's demands for resolution, energy demands, and meet their price point we will see a larger iPhone. And when that happens it will immediately make the current 4" iPhone seem very obsolete.
Well, to be honest, the entire laptop market has moved away from 17" models. Just look around. There are still some out there, particularly in gaming devices, but mostly the market is looking toward a sweet spot of 13-15" models that are more portable.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ruel24
I'd argue you're wrong. Back in the day, Apple was very innovative. As a matter of fact, it was too innovative, one could argue. The Newton? The Duo? Very innovative. Their problem was they didn't know how to market any of it, and some of it was a little too green for the market, in the case of the Newton.
YOu caught me with Newton
I had Macs in mind actually, forgot all about Newton...If you look at Macs at the time as revenue and profit generators, the lost innovation almost completely, Power PC and Performa line can hardly be counted for...
ANd look what happened later: iMac, iBook, iMac Flat Panel, Cube, Powerbook Titanium, Air, Mac Pro,...