Really? Motorola doesn't make anything but mobile phones?
Perhaps a bit of an overstatement. I though the split went through in 2010, but it was actually 2011. Still, Motorola's FY 2010 statement clearly distinguishes between Devices and Home revenue.
I don't know why companies don't get called out on this more. Is it standard practice or something? <span style="line-height:1.231;"> </span>
It's standard practice to divulge only what's legally required. If a company can make it harder for their competitors to know their true financials, they will certainly do so. The less the competitors know, the better.
That's why, as DED points out, pretty much all of this type of reporting is -- I am paraphrasing -- crap.
You can dissemble all you want, but none of the others come close to Apple in terms of the quality and quality of information provided every quarter.
I'm not arguing that they don't. Just that they're not going to report things which might give competitors an advantage. I know some people complain that they don't break out iPhone and iPad sales by model, but why should they? Who really needs to know besides Apple?
This article is in response to the articles posted by supposedly-reputable news sources that have (often mis-)quoted a crap analysis made on horrible data.
Please kindly similarly analyse the data from the article you mention, or GTFO.
Well I do realise that, but that misses my point. My point was, if a company is purposely deceiving you by releasing massaged financials, why wouldn't someone call them out on it? Why would anyone invest in that company? Why are such companies routinely reported on but this aspect isn't mentioned or highlighted? It suggest that deception is a central part of the game (something business analysts routinely deny BTW), and that everyone is sort of okay with that.
Sounds fucked up to me.
That is what K20 forms are for.
Honestly, people talk about how great capitalism is, and, the truth of the matter is, companies not disclosing this information is because of capitalism. (insert rant about various economic systems and how people expect them to be based on what they really are here)
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta
Nonsense. You didn't say "Motorola Mobility". You said "Motorola" - which makes an enormous range of products.
Well I do realise that, but that misses my point. My point was, if a company is purposely deceiving you by releasing massaged financials, why wouldn't someone call them out on it? Why would anyone invest in that company? Why are such companies routinely reported on but this aspect isn't mentioned or highlighted? It suggest that deception is a central part of the game (something business analysts routinely deny BTW), and that everyone is sort of okay with that.
Sounds fucked up to me.
Because that's how it's always been done. Apple does some hiding of their own. They report iPhone sales but never a breakdown of models and the same goes with every other device.
All of the companies in the report you linked to above are mobile phone companies: RIM, Motorola, Nokia, HTC, and Sony Ericsson. Relatively easy to see how much they're making because phones are all they make. Samsung is a whole different beast. But I suspect you already know that. Funny stuff indeed.
Not quite so. Some of these also make mobile infrastructure and networking gear, i.e. the stuff companies like AT&T use to operate their cellular networks.
We don't even know if samsung makes more phones than Apple does, even. They don't release sales numbers... something even Apple Insider doesn't seem to get.
Samsung does not release sales numbers, because the sales are anemic.
It's true we don't know exactly how many phones Samsung sells (or tablets, or the feature/smartphone split, or how many are Android/WP). But we can estimate ballparks, and can look at usage data, surveys and other information to make reasonably intelligent conclusions and predictions.
As stated earlier, we know they sell more than Apple. Even in just smartphones they do. But, Apple is a premium brand, and Samsung (while it makes some premium phones) makes a lot of non-premium products which not only are cheaper for consumers (compared to the newest iPhone) but also are cheaper for phone companies. Giving those companies a larger incentive to sell them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corrections
It is pretty interesting that Samsung's entire chip fab/LCD/memory, TV & appliances AND mobile/PC businesses combined are still earning less than Apple.
Not really, most of those are relatively low margin biz, and Memory/LCD have been having tough times (terms of profits) for at least 2-3 years from my memory.
Apple makes premium products and GENERALLY charges a premium price over competitors (looking only at the hardware).
For example, my Lumia 920 has far more technologies than either the iPhone 5 has, but it cost be under half the price an iPhone 5 with 32GB (only storage capacity for the Lumia) did. Normally it would only cost about 35-40% less, but that is still a large premium considering it has: NFC, wireless charging, larger battery, larger screen (with a slightly higher pixel density) (still IPS thankfully!), and other stuff like how it has a mode that works with gloves (and finger nails, etc,etc)
I got it because I wanted to play with W8P, to be honest, I was not expecting to fall in love with W8P. I was planning on keeping using my iPhone 4 (and eventually moving onto whatever the next iPhone will be called).
Anyhow, in addition, the fab/LCD/memory lines are things that Apple is by far the largest buyer of (to my knowledge) Apple knows how to play the supply chain well, they get lowest possible prices.
The interesting thing for me about these facts is that Samsung does the same stupid trick as Microsoft in that they blend in returns and sales numbers from completely unrelated areas to make the numbers appear better.
How do they blend returns and sales numbers if they don't report either?
Quote:
Originally Posted by eponymous
All of the companies in the report you linked to above are mobile phone companies: RIM, Motorola, Nokia, HTC, and Sony Ericsson. Relatively easy to see how much they're making because phones are all they make. Samsung is a whole different beast. But I suspect you already know that. Funny stuff indeed.
If you mean revenue, Samsung often announces it for their handset division in their investor press releases. For example, this one for 4Q12 said:
"The IT & Mobile Communications – comprised of Mobile Communications, Telecommunication Systems, Digital Imaging and Media Solution Center businesses – posted operating profits of 5.44 trillion won on 31.32 trillion won in revenue for the period. Out of the total IM earnings, the handset-making unit claimed 27.23 trillion won in revenue in the October-December quarter."
So about 87% of the IM division's revenue came from phones, which is handy to know for estimating future quarters.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta
Really? Motorola doesn't make anything but mobile phones?
The part of Motorola that Google owns now, makes just Mobile phones and accessories, including the MotoActv watch.
Forget all the fine details. Everyone is happy to hear that Samsung is beating the crap out of Apple in profits whether it's actually true or not. Let them enjoy the doom-ation of Apple if it makes them happy. Wall Street certainly doesn't care one way or another. Wall Street only knows that Apple's ass is being beaten in market share by Samsung and that's enough to perpetually keep Apple's share price down in the toilet. The hedge fund managers are tremendously fearful that Apple has lost its touch and they can make a lot more money by backing legitimate companies like Amazon where they know they've got a sure thing when they see it. Apple is too iffy an investment. Hedge funds only back sure things.
One thing for certain, Apple should never have let Samsung get even close to them. Apple should never have allowed Samsung to dominate the smartphone market in less than a year. Apple pulled a bonehead move by not doing anything for nearly nine months. What's the point of Apple having a mountain of reserve cash if they're not going to use it to protect themselves from weaker rivals. Samsung will soon own the bottom, the mid-tier and maybe even the top-tier smartphone market without even breaking a sweat. Samsung can put out six models of smartphones for every one Apple puts out. Each having a different feature that's better than whatever feature the iPhone has.
Well, good luck, Apple. You're going to have to beat off Samsung with a stick because everything Apple does, Samsung is going to copy it and add more features and then sell it for less money. Wall Street loves that price undercutting strategy and that's why Amazon is so favored by Wall Street investors.
[quote name="Constable Odo" url="/t/158742/samsung-has-not-dethroned-apple-in-mobile-profits#post_2369120"]One thing for certain, Apple should never have let Samsung get even close to them.[/QUOTE]
It's called lawsuits.
[QUOTE]Apple should never have allowed Samsung to dominate the smartphone market in less than a year.[/QUOTE]
They issued lawsuits.
[QUOTE]Apple pulled a bonehead move by not doing anything for nearly nine months.[/QUOTE]
They issued lawsuits.
[QUOTE]What's the point of Apple having a mountain of reserve cash if they're not going to use it to protect themselves from weaker rivals.[/QUOTE]
So they can issue lawsuits.
[QUOTE]Samsung can put out six models of smartphones for every one Apple puts out.[/QUOTE]
No. They DO. Saying can implies that Apple cannot.
Basically you want Apple to have hired SEAL team 6 to kill off Samsung's executives and engineers. That's really all they could have done other than what they did.
Really? Motorola doesn't make anything but mobile phones?
Actually, they don't if you consider the right Motorola.
From Wikipedia: "On February 11, 2010, Motorola announced its separation into two independent, publicly traded companies,effective Q1 2011. The official split occurred at around 12:00 pm EST on January 4, 2011. The two new companies are called Motorola Mobility (owned by Google; cell phone and cable television equipment company) and Motorola Solutions (NYSE: MSI; Government and Enterprise Business)."
And if you think Motorola's Set Top Box business is significant: "On April 17, ARRIS Group, Inc. (NASDAQ: ARRS) announced that it completed its acquisition of the Motorola Home business from a subsidiary of Google Inc."
So, now Motorola Mobility is selling cellphones only. And not making a lot of them either:)
I am not a fan of these Market Research Firms or Consulting Firms. They regulalry misguide general people and their customers alike. It's a shame people refuse to think themselves and outsource that to other who are clearly incompetent.
Comments
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta
Really? Motorola doesn't make anything but mobile phones?
Perhaps a bit of an overstatement. I though the split went through in 2010, but it was actually 2011. Still, Motorola's FY 2010 statement clearly distinguishes between Devices and Home revenue.
Typing on your Droid, eh?
That's why, as DED points out, pretty much all of this type of reporting is -- I am paraphrasing -- crap.
You can dissemble all you want, but none of the others come close to Apple in terms of the quality and quality of information provided every quarter.
Um... No.
This article is in response to the articles posted by supposedly-reputable news sources that have (often mis-)quoted a crap analysis made on horrible data.
Please kindly similarly analyse the data from the article you mention, or GTFO.
Nonsense. You didn't say "Motorola Mobility". You said "Motorola" - which makes an enormous range of products.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gazoobee
Well I do realise that, but that misses my point. My point was, if a company is purposely deceiving you by releasing massaged financials, why wouldn't someone call them out on it? Why would anyone invest in that company? Why are such companies routinely reported on but this aspect isn't mentioned or highlighted? It suggest that deception is a central part of the game (something business analysts routinely deny BTW), and that everyone is sort of okay with that.
Sounds fucked up to me.
That is what K20 forms are for.
Honestly, people talk about how great capitalism is, and, the truth of the matter is, companies not disclosing this information is because of capitalism. (insert rant about various economic systems and how people expect them to be based on what they really are here)
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta
Nonsense. You didn't say "Motorola Mobility". You said "Motorola" - which makes an enormous range of products.
Agreed.
-QAMF
At least they are honest about their intentions.
Because that's how it's always been done. Apple does some hiding of their own. They report iPhone sales but never a breakdown of models and the same goes with every other device.
Not quite so. Some of these also make mobile infrastructure and networking gear, i.e. the stuff companies like AT&T use to operate their cellular networks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corrections
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jessi
We don't even know if samsung makes more phones than Apple does, even. They don't release sales numbers... something even Apple Insider doesn't seem to get.
Samsung does not release sales numbers, because the sales are anemic.
It's true we don't know exactly how many phones Samsung sells (or tablets, or the feature/smartphone split, or how many are Android/WP). But we can estimate ballparks, and can look at usage data, surveys and other information to make reasonably intelligent conclusions and predictions.
As stated earlier, we know they sell more than Apple. Even in just smartphones they do. But, Apple is a premium brand, and Samsung (while it makes some premium phones) makes a lot of non-premium products which not only are cheaper for consumers (compared to the newest iPhone) but also are cheaper for phone companies. Giving those companies a larger incentive to sell them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corrections
It is pretty interesting that Samsung's entire chip fab/LCD/memory, TV & appliances AND mobile/PC businesses combined are still earning less than Apple.
Not really, most of those are relatively low margin biz, and Memory/LCD have been having tough times (terms of profits) for at least 2-3 years from my memory.
Apple makes premium products and GENERALLY charges a premium price over competitors (looking only at the hardware).
For example, my Lumia 920 has far more technologies than either the iPhone 5 has, but it cost be under half the price an iPhone 5 with 32GB (only storage capacity for the Lumia) did. Normally it would only cost about 35-40% less, but that is still a large premium considering it has: NFC, wireless charging, larger battery, larger screen (with a slightly higher pixel density) (still IPS thankfully!), and other stuff like how it has a mode that works with gloves (and finger nails, etc,etc)
I got it because I wanted to play with W8P, to be honest, I was not expecting to fall in love with W8P. I was planning on keeping using my iPhone 4 (and eventually moving onto whatever the next iPhone will be called).
Anyhow, in addition, the fab/LCD/memory lines are things that Apple is by far the largest buyer of (to my knowledge) Apple knows how to play the supply chain well, they get lowest possible prices.
-QAMF
note: Sorry for getting so off topic
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gazoobee
The interesting thing for me about these facts is that Samsung does the same stupid trick as Microsoft in that they blend in returns and sales numbers from completely unrelated areas to make the numbers appear better.
How do they blend returns and sales numbers if they don't report either?
Quote:
Originally Posted by eponymous
All of the companies in the report you linked to above are mobile phone companies: RIM, Motorola, Nokia, HTC, and Sony Ericsson. Relatively easy to see how much they're making because phones are all they make. Samsung is a whole different beast. But I suspect you already know that. Funny stuff indeed.
If you mean revenue, Samsung often announces it for their handset division in their investor press releases. For example, this one for 4Q12 said:
"The IT & Mobile Communications – comprised of Mobile Communications, Telecommunication Systems, Digital Imaging and Media Solution Center businesses – posted operating profits of 5.44 trillion won on 31.32 trillion won in revenue for the period. Out of the total IM earnings, the handset-making unit claimed 27.23 trillion won in revenue in the October-December quarter."
So about 87% of the IM division's revenue came from phones, which is handy to know for estimating future quarters.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta
Really? Motorola doesn't make anything but mobile phones?
The part of Motorola that Google owns now, makes just Mobile phones and accessories, including the MotoActv watch.
One thing for certain, Apple should never have let Samsung get even close to them. Apple should never have allowed Samsung to dominate the smartphone market in less than a year. Apple pulled a bonehead move by not doing anything for nearly nine months. What's the point of Apple having a mountain of reserve cash if they're not going to use it to protect themselves from weaker rivals. Samsung will soon own the bottom, the mid-tier and maybe even the top-tier smartphone market without even breaking a sweat. Samsung can put out six models of smartphones for every one Apple puts out. Each having a different feature that's better than whatever feature the iPhone has.
Well, good luck, Apple. You're going to have to beat off Samsung with a stick because everything Apple does, Samsung is going to copy it and add more features and then sell it for less money. Wall Street loves that price undercutting strategy and that's why Amazon is so favored by Wall Street investors.
It's called lawsuits.
[QUOTE]Apple should never have allowed Samsung to dominate the smartphone market in less than a year.[/QUOTE]
They issued lawsuits.
[QUOTE]Apple pulled a bonehead move by not doing anything for nearly nine months.[/QUOTE]
They issued lawsuits.
[QUOTE]What's the point of Apple having a mountain of reserve cash if they're not going to use it to protect themselves from weaker rivals.[/QUOTE]
So they can issue lawsuits.
[QUOTE]Samsung can put out six models of smartphones for every one Apple puts out.[/QUOTE]
No. They DO. Saying can implies that Apple cannot.
Basically you want Apple to have hired SEAL team 6 to kill off Samsung's executives and engineers. That's really all they could have done other than what they did.
That is some fine reporting! Great job!
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta
Really? Motorola doesn't make anything but mobile phones?
Actually, they don't if you consider the right Motorola.
From Wikipedia: "On February 11, 2010, Motorola announced its separation into two independent, publicly traded companies, effective Q1 2011. The official split occurred at around 12:00 pm EST on January 4, 2011. The two new companies are called Motorola Mobility (owned by Google; cell phone and cable television equipment company) and Motorola Solutions (NYSE: MSI; Government and Enterprise Business)."
And if you think Motorola's Set Top Box business is significant: "On April 17, ARRIS Group, Inc. (NASDAQ: ARRS) announced that it completed its acquisition of the Motorola Home business from a subsidiary of Google Inc."
So, now Motorola Mobility is selling cellphones only. And not making a lot of them either:)
I am not a fan of these Market Research Firms or Consulting Firms. They regulalry misguide general people and their customers alike. It's a shame people refuse to think themselves and outsource that to other who are clearly incompetent.
I always thought Gartner is the prime culprit. Look here (http://www.zdnet.com/why-does-the-it-industry-continue-to-listen-to-gartner-7000001394/). The conclusion is a classic: In early 2009, Gartner projects “sharpest unit decline in history.” At the end of the year, it reports “strongest growth rate in seven years.”
Now, it seems Strategy Analytics is fighting for the crown.