I still don't see why anyone would buy a Surface Pro so close to the release of Intel's Haswell Y-series (fanless). Y-series tablets are expected to have a much thinner chassis and a 7~9 hour battery life. Essentially what the Surface Pro should have been originally.
Would be surprised if Microsoft goes ahead with the (rumored) second generation Surface. The CPU speed, fan, and chassis dimensions are the least of the Surface Pro's problems. Bigger problems include (and are not limited to):
1. Windows jammed into an inappropriate form factor. Again.
2. Confusion as users are forced to switch between keyboard, touchpad, touchscreen.
3. Incompatible with Surface RT and legacy Windows software (yet more confusion.)
4. Minuscule selection of apps in the Windows Store. Apps add value to the hardware.
5. Pitiful media ecosystem. Microsoft could have leveraged Zune if if had succeeded.
CPU speed, fan, etc. are trivial issues compared to these.
Microsucks could sell all of their Surface tablets at these lower prices if they would announce that they removed the UEFI that locks in Windows and would allow other OSs to operate on their hardware. I would buy an RT and do that but it is impossible.
You clearly need to go back and read my post again. Take a minute and try to understand what was implied.
If you implied something different, it sure wasn't very clear, because the standard apologist sort of defence is exactly what I got from your remark also.
Plus, your description of the wonders of Haswell makes it seem like the new Surface Pro tablets (actually more like convertible laptops), will be feature and performance competitive with iPads or Android tablets (fanless, 7-9 hour battery life, thin profile, etc), when this is really just fantasy. It's basically the same shit intel has been pushing since day one (2007) and it hasn't materialised yet. Haswell is great, but it isn't a miracle. It isn't going to all of a sudden make an x86 machine perform like an ARM machine in terms of the power envelope and so forth.
You are just falling for the marketing materials. Wait and see when (or if) Surface Pro materialises and check out the reviews. The reality will be somewhat different from the articles you've been reading. It always is.
Would be surprised if Microsoft goes ahead with the (rumored) second generation Surface. The CPU speed, fan, and chassis dimensions are the least of the Surface Pro's problems. Bigger problems include (and are not limited to):
1. Windows jammed into an inappropriate form factor. Again.
2. Confusion as users are forced to switch between keyboard, touchpad, touchscreen.
3. Incompatible with Surface RT and legacy Windows software (yet more confusion.)
4. Minuscule selection of apps in the Windows Store. Apps add value to the hardware.
5. Pitiful media ecosystem. Microsoft could have leveraged Zune if if had succeeded.
CPU speed, fan, etc. are trivial issues compared to these.
1. Windows works fine with a touch screen, the addition of a Wacom stylus / active digitizer can also allow you do use advanced / complex programs with ease.
"Struggling." Yeah, that's what we'll call it, "struggling." That way we don't have to use words like disastrous, failed, embarrassing, catastrophic, dreadful, humiliating, ruinous, calamitous, terrible, dire, disgraceful, or shameful.
It's OK. It took Jean Luc Picard awhile to get over the effects of his Borg Assimilation too… those of us who can successfully auto-translate knew what you meant. Welcome back to the greener side of the tracks.
If you implied something different, it sure wasn't very clear, because the standard apologist sort of defence is exactly what I got from your remark also.
Plus, your description of the wonders of Haswell makes it seem like the new Surface Pro tablets (actually more like convertible laptops), will be feature and performance competitive with iPads or Android tablets (fanless, 7-9 hour battery life, thin profile, etc), when this is really just fantasy. It's basically the same shit intel has been pushing since day one (2007) and it hasn't materialised yet. Haswell is great, but it isn't a miracle. It isn't going to all of a sudden make an x86 machine perform like an ARM machine in terms of the power envelope and so forth.
You are just falling for the marketing materials. Wait and see when (or if) Surface Pro materialises and check out the reviews. The reality will be somewhat different from the articles you've been reading. It always is.
Another user understood my post just fine.
Haswell Y-series is not Bay Trail. Don't confuse the two like you just have.
Clover Trail already has a 10 hour battery life inside a form factor thinner and lighter than an iPad 4. Bay Trail will be replacing Clover Trail and offering a massive boost in performance.
Haswell Y-series will offer a higher level of performance in a fanless chassis, but it will not be as thin and light as an ARM or Bay Trail tablet.
There is no marketing to fall for here, the reality is that this hardware exists and will make a reasonable difference in the market.
On a side note I'm not basing my post off of speculation for a new Surface Pro. The hardware I've discussed will be in devices from all hardware manufacturers.
I actually used a surface once. It was just...wierd. I'm so used to the ease of the iPad now, that this just seemed ... unintuitive at every turn. It was a "I just don't get this" moment. It seems like this was just a botched product from the get-go. MS had to react, and react they did. This might be a "new coke" moment. Honestly, I would have no use for a surface at any price. The woot ad at $100 is funny. I wouldn't even spend that. And fairly, if anyone asked my opinion about spending a $100, I would say "put that toward a device you'll be happy with - an iPad." At $800? Please.
Oh, and remember when Melinda Gates famously told everyone that she wouldn't permit her kids to have iPods? "They can have a Zune." Reminds me of when my dad had been working at Ford for decades, but when my mom had to spend her own money on a car, she bought an Oldsmobile. "Honey, I love you, but I need a car I can rely on." Brand loyalty is one of those things I rather don't get.
I'm shocked, shocked I say to learn that the Surface Pro isn't selling!
When the Surface RT sat on store shelves they said it was because it didn't come with "full Windows" and cost too much. I thought it was actually because Microsoft's vaunted Metro/Modern UI is in fact not nearly as good as the fawning tech press claimed, that being "different" is not the same thing as being better. Given that the new UI was part of "real Windows" too I suspected that we would eventually learn that the Surface Pro had been just as big a failure as the RT models. And now it is coming to pass, even the Surface that runs real Windows is a disaster and isn't selling.
Here's the thing, even if the new ruler of Microsoft does what Ballmer should have done originally and strips the Modern UI out of Windows and markets it as a separate OS for touch devices only it won't help, because in all the fuss of RT vs real Windows, Surface RT vs Surface Pro and the Start menu the fact that the Modern UI isn't as good as either iOS or Android got lost. It's different alright, but it's also confusing and hard to figure out which gestures do what and why. It's not intuitive, you have to learn quite a bit to do even basic things with it.
Would be surprised if Microsoft goes ahead with the (rumored) second generation Surface. The CPU speed, fan, and chassis dimensions are the least of the Surface Pro's problems. Bigger problems include (and are not limited to):
1. Windows jammed into an inappropriate form factor. Again.
2. Confusion as users are forced to switch between keyboard, touchpad, touchscreen.
3. Incompatible with Surface RT and legacy Windows software (yet more confusion.)
4. Minuscule selection of apps in the Windows Store. Apps add value to the hardware.
5. Pitiful media ecosystem. Microsoft could have leveraged Zune if if had succeeded.
CPU speed, fan, etc. are trivial issues compared to these.
1. Inappropriate form factor? People complained about Windows 8 precisely because the metro ui was designed specifically for touch. I would argue that battery life and weight issues aside, the surface pro is the ideal device for windows 8. It has an excellent touchscreen for metro apps and the horsepower for desktop software like photoshop. Not to mention that wacom pen works well too.
2. What do you mean by "forced" to switch? If you are using a metro app no one will force you to use a keyboard. The touchscreen works in desktop mode too.
It's OK. It took Jean Luc Picard awhile to get over the effects of his Borg Assimilation too… those of us who can successfully auto-translate knew what you meant. Welcome back to the greener side of the tracks.
Comments
Originally Posted by LAKings33
I still don't see why anyone would buy a Surface Pro so close to the release of Intel's Haswell Y-series (fanless). Y-series tablets are expected to have a much thinner chassis and a 7~9 hour battery life. Essentially what the Surface Pro should have been originally.
Would be surprised if Microsoft goes ahead with the (rumored) second generation Surface. The CPU speed, fan, and chassis dimensions are the least of the Surface Pro's problems. Bigger problems include (and are not limited to):
1. Windows jammed into an inappropriate form factor. Again.
2. Confusion as users are forced to switch between keyboard, touchpad, touchscreen.
3. Incompatible with Surface RT and legacy Windows software (yet more confusion.)
4. Minuscule selection of apps in the Windows Store. Apps add value to the hardware.
5. Pitiful media ecosystem. Microsoft could have leveraged Zune if if had succeeded.
CPU speed, fan, etc. are trivial issues compared to these.
Microsucks could sell all of their Surface tablets at these lower prices if they would announce that they removed the UEFI that locks in Windows and would allow other OSs to operate on their hardware. I would buy an RT and do that but it is impossible.
MS should scratch the Surface, because when comes to the iPad it barely scratched the surface.
Q. Why does the Surface have the kickstand?
A. Because it needs all the support it can get.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LAKings33
You clearly need to go back and read my post again. Take a minute and try to understand what was implied.
If you implied something different, it sure wasn't very clear, because the standard apologist sort of defence is exactly what I got from your remark also.
Plus, your description of the wonders of Haswell makes it seem like the new Surface Pro tablets (actually more like convertible laptops), will be feature and performance competitive with iPads or Android tablets (fanless, 7-9 hour battery life, thin profile, etc), when this is really just fantasy. It's basically the same shit intel has been pushing since day one (2007) and it hasn't materialised yet. Haswell is great, but it isn't a miracle. It isn't going to all of a sudden make an x86 machine perform like an ARM machine in terms of the power envelope and so forth.
You are just falling for the marketing materials. Wait and see when (or if) Surface Pro materialises and check out the reviews. The reality will be somewhat different from the articles you've been reading. It always is.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SockRolid
Would be surprised if Microsoft goes ahead with the (rumored) second generation Surface. The CPU speed, fan, and chassis dimensions are the least of the Surface Pro's problems. Bigger problems include (and are not limited to):
1. Windows jammed into an inappropriate form factor. Again.
2. Confusion as users are forced to switch between keyboard, touchpad, touchscreen.
3. Incompatible with Surface RT and legacy Windows software (yet more confusion.)
4. Minuscule selection of apps in the Windows Store. Apps add value to the hardware.
5. Pitiful media ecosystem. Microsoft could have leveraged Zune if if had succeeded.
CPU speed, fan, etc. are trivial issues compared to these.
1. Windows works fine with a touch screen, the addition of a Wacom stylus / active digitizer can also allow you do use advanced / complex programs with ease.
2. Refer to #1.
3. Surface Pro is running full Windows 8 on x86 hardware, it can run all legacy applications. Steam, Photoshop, AutoCAD, etc. it will run it.
4. Apps? Again it's a fully capable Windows computer, it has more software than OS X or iOS.
5. Media? It's a fully capable PC, use anyone's services you want.
The failure of the device was the low battery and large body. For that reason it failed as a tablet or a laptop.
Haswell Y-series is a fix for higher end tablets (from Microsoft or any other hardware company).
Quote:
Originally Posted by GadgetCanadaV2
LOL, you're right!!! What was I thinking?
It's OK. It took Jean Luc Picard awhile to get over the effects of his Borg Assimilation too… those of us who can successfully auto-translate knew what you meant. Welcome back to the greener side of the tracks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gazoobee
If you implied something different, it sure wasn't very clear, because the standard apologist sort of defence is exactly what I got from your remark also.
Plus, your description of the wonders of Haswell makes it seem like the new Surface Pro tablets (actually more like convertible laptops), will be feature and performance competitive with iPads or Android tablets (fanless, 7-9 hour battery life, thin profile, etc), when this is really just fantasy. It's basically the same shit intel has been pushing since day one (2007) and it hasn't materialised yet. Haswell is great, but it isn't a miracle. It isn't going to all of a sudden make an x86 machine perform like an ARM machine in terms of the power envelope and so forth.
You are just falling for the marketing materials. Wait and see when (or if) Surface Pro materialises and check out the reviews. The reality will be somewhat different from the articles you've been reading. It always is.
Another user understood my post just fine.
Haswell Y-series is not Bay Trail. Don't confuse the two like you just have.
Clover Trail already has a 10 hour battery life inside a form factor thinner and lighter than an iPad 4. Bay Trail will be replacing Clover Trail and offering a massive boost in performance.
Haswell Y-series will offer a higher level of performance in a fanless chassis, but it will not be as thin and light as an ARM or Bay Trail tablet.
There is no marketing to fall for here, the reality is that this hardware exists and will make a reasonable difference in the market.
On a side note I'm not basing my post off of speculation for a new Surface Pro. The hardware I've discussed will be in devices from all hardware manufacturers.
I actually used a surface once. It was just...wierd. I'm so used to the ease of the iPad now, that this just seemed ... unintuitive at every turn. It was a "I just don't get this" moment. It seems like this was just a botched product from the get-go. MS had to react, and react they did. This might be a "new coke" moment. Honestly, I would have no use for a surface at any price. The woot ad at $100 is funny. I wouldn't even spend that. And fairly, if anyone asked my opinion about spending a $100, I would say "put that toward a device you'll be happy with - an iPad." At $800? Please.
Oh, and remember when Melinda Gates famously told everyone that she wouldn't permit her kids to have iPods? "They can have a Zune." Reminds me of when my dad had been working at Ford for decades, but when my mom had to spend her own money on a car, she bought an Oldsmobile. "Honey, I love you, but I need a car I can rely on." Brand loyalty is one of those things I rather don't get.
Hate??????? Why???
Originally Posted by eightzero
Oh, and remember when Melinda Gates famously told everyone that she wouldn't permit her kids to have iPods? "They can have a Zune."
Bill. Unless she said it separately, in which case those kids are ruined as human beings.
When the Surface RT sat on store shelves they said it was because it didn't come with "full Windows" and cost too much. I thought it was actually because Microsoft's vaunted Metro/Modern UI is in fact not nearly as good as the fawning tech press claimed, that being "different" is not the same thing as being better. Given that the new UI was part of "real Windows" too I suspected that we would eventually learn that the Surface Pro had been just as big a failure as the RT models. And now it is coming to pass, even the Surface that runs real Windows is a disaster and isn't selling.
Here's the thing, even if the new ruler of Microsoft does what Ballmer should have done originally and strips the Modern UI out of Windows and markets it as a separate OS for touch devices only it won't help, because in all the fuss of RT vs real Windows, Surface RT vs Surface Pro and the Start menu the fact that the Modern UI isn't as good as either iOS or Android got lost. It's different alright, but it's also confusing and hard to figure out which gestures do what and why. It's not intuitive, you have to learn quite a bit to do even basic things with it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SockRolid
Would be surprised if Microsoft goes ahead with the (rumored) second generation Surface. The CPU speed, fan, and chassis dimensions are the least of the Surface Pro's problems. Bigger problems include (and are not limited to):
1. Windows jammed into an inappropriate form factor. Again.
2. Confusion as users are forced to switch between keyboard, touchpad, touchscreen.
3. Incompatible with Surface RT and legacy Windows software (yet more confusion.)
4. Minuscule selection of apps in the Windows Store. Apps add value to the hardware.
5. Pitiful media ecosystem. Microsoft could have leveraged Zune if if had succeeded.
CPU speed, fan, etc. are trivial issues compared to these.
1. Inappropriate form factor? People complained about Windows 8 precisely because the metro ui was designed specifically for touch. I would argue that battery life and weight issues aside, the surface pro is the ideal device for windows 8. It has an excellent touchscreen for metro apps and the horsepower for desktop software like photoshop. Not to mention that wacom pen works well too.
2. What do you mean by "forced" to switch? If you are using a metro app no one will force you to use a keyboard. The touchscreen works in desktop mode too.
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by GadgetCanadaV2
LOL, you're right!!! What was I thinking?
Originally Posted by tribalogicalIt's OK. It took Jean Luc Picard awhile to get over the effects of his Borg Assimilation too… those of us who can successfully auto-translate knew what you meant. Welcome back to the greener side of the tracks.
¡cough! Excuse me?