Excellent illustration! This is what I've never understood: almost to a person, everyone who has rationalized their preference for the Surface tablet over something like an iPad (or even some flavor of Android tablet) usually lists the *exact* things that I would just do on a laptop. And when someone says that the Surface has a physical keyboard and the iPad doesn't... uh, I'm pretty sure I've seen iPads docked to keyboards. "But it doesn't have a mouse!" True enough. But then again, at what point wouldn't you just put a lightweight laptop in your bag instead of this thing? I believe you can run most any Windows based program on a Mac Air or whatever your brand of choice is. So again, if I need/want Office on a mobile device, why do I need this thing?
So I'm not surprised that the Surface has been a total flop. It's only real advantages over an iPad seemingly put it up against laptops that are better than it is at those functions. It really is like the Zune (phone and music player): even for free (unless I could dump it later on Ebay), I just can't say that I would really want one. If I didn't want an iPad, whether it was a Mac or not, I'd rather have a decent laptop over this thing.
Excellent illustration! This is what I've never understood: almost to a person, everyone who has rationalized their preference for the Surface tablet over something like an iPad (or even some flavor of Android tablet) usually lists the *exact* things that I would just do on a laptop. And when someone says that the Surface has a physical keyboard and the iPad doesn't... uh, I'm pretty sure I've seen iPads docked to keyboards. "But it doesn't have a mouse!" True enough. But then again, at what point wouldn't you just put a lightweight laptop in your bag instead of this thing? I believe you can run most any Windows based program on a Mac Air or whatever your brand of choice is. So again, if I need/want Office on a mobile device, why do I need this thing?
So I'm not surprised that the Surface has been a total flop. It's only real advantages over an iPad seemingly put it up against laptops that are better than it is at those functions. It really is like the Zune (phone and music player): even for free (unless I could dump it later on Ebay), I just can't say that I would really want one. If I didn't want an iPad, whether it was a Mac or not, I'd rather have a decent laptop over this thing.
I completely agree, and I even go further with comparing the Surface with any other tablet PC attempt before. They all failed because the tablet loses any advantages over the laptop if all your software keeps depending on a keyboard and a mouse. Making a mandatory keyboard accessory it gives wrong direction to developers who generally doesn't bother much about tweaking their apps for a specific platform and still consider the tablet has a laptop.
I completely agree, and I even go further with comparing the Surface with any other tablet PC attempt before. They all failed because the tablet loses any advantages over the laptop if all your software keeps depending on a keyboard and a mouse. Making a mandatory keyboard accessory it gives wrong direction to developers who generally doesn't bother much about tweaking their apps for a specific platform and still consider the tablet has a laptop.
The Surface (pro) has more of a split personality compared to previous tablet PCs. You'll probably want a keyboard and mouse/trackpad to run traditional desktop apps like photoshop. But no one is forcing you to run desktop software; if metro apps meet all of your needs, you can use the device with your fingers like any other tablet (battery and weight issues aside, but hardware will inevitably improve). Previous tablet PCs only had a desktop mode.
The Surface (pro) has more of a split personality compared to previous tablet PCs. You'll probably want a keyboard and mouse/trackpad to run traditional desktop apps like photoshop. But no one is forcing you to run desktop software; if metro apps meet all of your needs, you can use the device with your fingers like any other tablet (battery and weight issues aside, but hardware will inevitably improve). Previous tablet PCs only had a desktop mode.
Agree, no one is forcing us to use the mandatory Surface keyboard but pointing Metro apps as replacement is laughable. Most Metro apps are half brew and can't even compete with android or iOS apps equivalent, even Microsoft hasn't port their own offices suite on Metro and are forcing the touch-agnostic Desktop UI on Surface RT only to run one apps: Office.
Metro is a mess on many levels, right now Metro is only an empty shell without any contents and since there is no clues for a windows less interfaces on desktop PC, It will be ignored by most Windows Apps developer who mostly still prefer .NET like Microsoft does with their own softwares libraries
Metro is a mess on many levels, right now Metro is only an empty shell without any contents and since there is no clues for a windows less interfaces on desktop PC, It will be ignored by most Windows Apps developer
who mostly still prefer .NET
like Microsoft does with their own softwares libraries
Metro is .net. Most of Microsofts actual windows software like office also isnt .net, its C++
Metro apps are not mostly HTML + Javascript. The last stats I saw put HTML at around 5 - 10% of the stores apps. The overwhelming majority are still being written in C#.
The .net framework for metro (which is still a 4.5 framework) apps does have less apis than the core framework. But its also doing a lot less. There's no point in having the whole web namespace when its useless for making apps. There's also no point including stuff that's effectively dead but cant be removed from the framework as it would break old code.
If people want to use the parts that aren't included though, in a lit of circumstances they can just include the dll for the missing bit. As long as you don't include something that's going to break the security requirements, the way .net works means you can include stuff in your project rather than it be in the framework. With .net 4.5 a lot more stuff is actually being taken out of the framework so that it can have updates released without the core framework needing an update.
Metro apps are not mostly HTML + Javascript. The last stats I saw put HTML at around 5 - 10% of the stores apps. The overwhelming majority are still being written in C#.
The .net framework for metro (which is still a 4.5 framework) apps does have less apis than the core framework. But its also doing a lot less. There's no point in having the whole web namespace when its useless for making apps. There's also no point including stuff that's effectively dead but cant be removed from the framework as it would break old code.
If people want to use the parts that aren't included though, in a lit of circumstances they can just include the dll for the missing bit. As long as you don't include something that's going to break the security requirements, the way .net works means you can include stuff in your project rather than it be in the framework. With .net 4.5 a lot more stuff is actually being taken out of the framework so that it can have updates released without the core framework needing an update.
Where have you got your stats? For what I saw on the Surface I played with, most apps bundled on the Surface like Cut the rope and Windows 8 Apps Store are HTML wrapper.
Besides, you can't say you can straightly port .NET 4.5 apps to XAML/C# for WinRT. Too much is currently missing in the WinRT runtime, starting with all the UI control not yet replicated in WinRT like windows, popup menus, radio control. And no you can't just use any existing windows DLL in apps targeted for WinRT environment.
Apple got this right with keeping the same MVC model (Cocoa) for iOS and OSX and porting their Core API to iOS and back to OSX make their IDE much more streamlined than what Microsoft propose with their 3 separated at birth platforms (WP8 RIA, WinRT Metro and Windows WPF). Just look on how many original iOS apps (Mostly games though) that has been ported back to OSX now populate the Mac Apps Store. I failed to find similar examples of WP8 apps ported to WinRT or Windows.
Where have you got your stats? For what I saw on the Surface I played with, most apps bundled on the Surface like Cut the rope and Windows 8 Apps Store are HTML wrapper.
Besides, you can't say you can straightly port .NET 4.5 apps to XAML/C# for WinRT. Too much is currently missing in the WinRT runtime, starting with all the UI control not yet replicated in WinRT like windows, popup menus, radio control. And no you can't just use any existing windows DLL in apps targeted for WinRT environment.
Apple got this right with keeping the same MVC model (Cocoa) for iOS and OSX and porting their Core API to iOS and back to OSX make their IDE much more streamlined than what Microsoft propose with their 3 separated at birth platforms (WP8 RIA, WinRT Metro and Windows WPF). Just look on how many original iOS apps (Mostly games though) that has been ported back to OSX now populate the Mac Apps Store. I failed to find similar examples of WP8 apps ported to WinRT or Windows.
most recent stats I heard were on the .net rocks podcast which is basically the biggest podcast for .net devs. They were talking to a guy from Microsoft about it so im inclined to believe them. Also makes sense when you think about the fact 95% of devs that are html and javascript devs work with traditional website which doesnt exactly translate to app development.
I didnt say you could straightly port a .net 4.5 wpf or win form app to winrt. For a start those missing ui controls even if you recreated them would get the app rejected from the store. An app would need to be metrofied to meet the new design style. I also said you could only use the missing dlls if the dll didnt break an app store rule. E.g. If it uses some stuff that gives you direct access to memory its going to rejected. You app will run be the store will reject it. You can also include compiled code like something written in c++ but you will need to submit arm and intel versions if you do. E.g. Sql lite works this way.
Also the MVC model used by wpf and winrt are identical there both xaml based. As is windows phone and silverlight. Also im not a mac or ios dev but I would be surprised if it wasnt the exact same situation. For a start printing wasnt availiable in the first couple of versions of ios so i doubt the apis were there. From the little playing ive done with xcodes interface builder im also fairly certain they have different ui controls.
Also the MVC model used by wpf and winrt are identical there both xaml based. As is windows phone and silverlight. Also im not a mac or ios dev but I would be surprised if it wasnt the exact same situation. For a start printing wasnt availiable in the first couple of versions of ios so i doubt the apis were there. From the little playing ive done with xcodes interface builder im also fairly certain they have different ui controls.
Of course there is different sets of controls in the Interface builder for iOS and OSX and printing wasn't not part of the OSX Core API, but you can use the exact same model and view in Apple IDE to targeted iPhone, iPad and Mac devices, which is not the case for Microsoft ecosystem, you can't target WP8 and Surface device with the same VS project.
All this being said, even if Metro is same as .NET, still there is very few productivity apps who have been updated for Metro, which is the basis of Surface marketing strategy against the iPad by promoting their product has a content producing device. My original premise was about Windows apps being not adapted for tablet form factor and Surface Pro being confront to the exact same issue of previous Tablet PC attempt of being more expensive and less productive than laptops counterpart.
I would take that with a grain of salt. ARMv8 (which includes Cortex A53 / A57) still hasn't been used in a consumer product, and last I heard will only make it to market early 2014. <span style="line-height:1.231;">AMD's 64-bit ARM based cores are due in 2014 and NVIDIA's are set for a 2015 release.</span>
Well, when is Google going to spit out a 64 Bit OS? Whenever they do the OEM Android mfg have to take about 6 to 7 months before they start updating their 64 bit processors. By that time, Apple will be on their SECOND gen 64 bit and then the current 5s will be their second teir product and a year later, Apple will be 100% 64 bit, which Scamscum still spits out the cheap, outdated 32 bit with Gingerbread for $100 losing money on some garbage that should have been discontinued the second they stopped updating the OS.
I still can't figure out why a company would still sell a product that isn't running the latest OS. Apple would NEVER do that. EVER. A product has to be discontinued first before that time frame.
The SAMDROID platform is just a mess.
I'm sure most corporations that buy smartphones won't even touch Android for just that one reason. They certainly can't get bug fixes and security updates very quickly, IF at all.
Apple just needs to spit out a decent large screen which i hope is 6 months away. Apple? if are reading this. Let's get cracking. TImes a wasting and the demand is there.
Comments
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigMac2
My 2 cents
Excellent illustration! This is what I've never understood: almost to a person, everyone who has rationalized their preference for the Surface tablet over something like an iPad (or even some flavor of Android tablet) usually lists the *exact* things that I would just do on a laptop. And when someone says that the Surface has a physical keyboard and the iPad doesn't... uh, I'm pretty sure I've seen iPads docked to keyboards. "But it doesn't have a mouse!" True enough. But then again, at what point wouldn't you just put a lightweight laptop in your bag instead of this thing? I believe you can run most any Windows based program on a Mac Air or whatever your brand of choice is. So again, if I need/want Office on a mobile device, why do I need this thing?
So I'm not surprised that the Surface has been a total flop. It's only real advantages over an iPad seemingly put it up against laptops that are better than it is at those functions. It really is like the Zune (phone and music player): even for free (unless I could dump it later on Ebay), I just can't say that I would really want one. If I didn't want an iPad, whether it was a Mac or not, I'd rather have a decent laptop over this thing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jag_Warrior
Excellent illustration! This is what I've never understood: almost to a person, everyone who has rationalized their preference for the Surface tablet over something like an iPad (or even some flavor of Android tablet) usually lists the *exact* things that I would just do on a laptop. And when someone says that the Surface has a physical keyboard and the iPad doesn't... uh, I'm pretty sure I've seen iPads docked to keyboards. "But it doesn't have a mouse!" True enough. But then again, at what point wouldn't you just put a lightweight laptop in your bag instead of this thing? I believe you can run most any Windows based program on a Mac Air or whatever your brand of choice is. So again, if I need/want Office on a mobile device, why do I need this thing?
So I'm not surprised that the Surface has been a total flop. It's only real advantages over an iPad seemingly put it up against laptops that are better than it is at those functions. It really is like the Zune (phone and music player): even for free (unless I could dump it later on Ebay), I just can't say that I would really want one. If I didn't want an iPad, whether it was a Mac or not, I'd rather have a decent laptop over this thing.
I completely agree, and I even go further with comparing the Surface with any other tablet PC attempt before. They all failed because the tablet loses any advantages over the laptop if all your software keeps depending on a keyboard and a mouse. Making a mandatory keyboard accessory it gives wrong direction to developers who generally doesn't bother much about tweaking their apps for a specific platform and still consider the tablet has a laptop.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigMac2
I completely agree, and I even go further with comparing the Surface with any other tablet PC attempt before. They all failed because the tablet loses any advantages over the laptop if all your software keeps depending on a keyboard and a mouse. Making a mandatory keyboard accessory it gives wrong direction to developers who generally doesn't bother much about tweaking their apps for a specific platform and still consider the tablet has a laptop.
The Surface (pro) has more of a split personality compared to previous tablet PCs. You'll probably want a keyboard and mouse/trackpad to run traditional desktop apps like photoshop. But no one is forcing you to run desktop software; if metro apps meet all of your needs, you can use the device with your fingers like any other tablet (battery and weight issues aside, but hardware will inevitably improve). Previous tablet PCs only had a desktop mode.
The Surface (pro) has more of a split personality compared to previous tablet PCs. You'll probably want a keyboard and mouse/trackpad to run traditional desktop apps like photoshop. But no one is forcing you to run desktop software; if metro apps meet all of your needs, you can use the device with your fingers like any other tablet (battery and weight issues aside, but hardware will inevitably improve). Previous tablet PCs only had a desktop mode.
Agree, no one is forcing us to use the mandatory Surface keyboard but pointing Metro apps as replacement is laughable. Most Metro apps are half brew and can't even compete with android or iOS apps equivalent, even Microsoft hasn't port their own offices suite on Metro and are forcing the touch-agnostic Desktop UI on Surface RT only to run one apps: Office.
Metro is a mess on many levels, right now Metro is only an empty shell without any contents and since there is no clues for a windows less interfaces on desktop PC, It will be ignored by most Windows Apps developer who mostly still prefer .NET like Microsoft does with their own softwares libraries
Metro is .net. Most of Microsofts actual windows software like office also isnt .net, its C++
Metro apps are mostly HTML + Javascript, .NET for Metro is a long run behind from being equal to .NET Framework 4.5.
.NET for Metro style apps
Windows Phone 7.1
.NET Framework 4.5
Namespace
72
95
447
Type
1,246
1,788
14,936
Member
15,674
20,291
217,166
Table: API surface counts, by .NET Profile
The .net framework for metro (which is still a 4.5 framework) apps does have less apis than the core framework. But its also doing a lot less. There's no point in having the whole web namespace when its useless for making apps. There's also no point including stuff that's effectively dead but cant be removed from the framework as it would break old code.
If people want to use the parts that aren't included though, in a lit of circumstances they can just include the dll for the missing bit. As long as you don't include something that's going to break the security requirements, the way .net works means you can include stuff in your project rather than it be in the framework. With .net 4.5 a lot more stuff is actually being taken out of the framework so that it can have updates released without the core framework needing an update.
Metro apps are not mostly HTML + Javascript. The last stats I saw put HTML at around 5 - 10% of the stores apps. The overwhelming majority are still being written in C#.
The .net framework for metro (which is still a 4.5 framework) apps does have less apis than the core framework. But its also doing a lot less. There's no point in having the whole web namespace when its useless for making apps. There's also no point including stuff that's effectively dead but cant be removed from the framework as it would break old code.
If people want to use the parts that aren't included though, in a lit of circumstances they can just include the dll for the missing bit. As long as you don't include something that's going to break the security requirements, the way .net works means you can include stuff in your project rather than it be in the framework. With .net 4.5 a lot more stuff is actually being taken out of the framework so that it can have updates released without the core framework needing an update.
Where have you got your stats? For what I saw on the Surface I played with, most apps bundled on the Surface like Cut the rope and Windows 8 Apps Store are HTML wrapper.
Besides, you can't say you can straightly port .NET 4.5 apps to XAML/C# for WinRT. Too much is currently missing in the WinRT runtime, starting with all the UI control not yet replicated in WinRT like windows, popup menus, radio control. And no you can't just use any existing windows DLL in apps targeted for WinRT environment.
Apple got this right with keeping the same MVC model (Cocoa) for iOS and OSX and porting their Core API to iOS and back to OSX make their IDE much more streamlined than what Microsoft propose with their 3 separated at birth platforms (WP8 RIA, WinRT Metro and Windows WPF). Just look on how many original iOS apps (Mostly games though) that has been ported back to OSX now populate the Mac Apps Store. I failed to find similar examples of WP8 apps ported to WinRT or Windows.
I didnt say you could straightly port a .net 4.5 wpf or win form app to winrt. For a start those missing ui controls even if you recreated them would get the app rejected from the store. An app would need to be metrofied to meet the new design style. I also said you could only use the missing dlls if the dll didnt break an app store rule. E.g. If it uses some stuff that gives you direct access to memory its going to rejected. You app will run be the store will reject it. You can also include compiled code like something written in c++ but you will need to submit arm and intel versions if you do. E.g. Sql lite works this way.
Also the MVC model used by wpf and winrt are identical there both xaml based. As is windows phone and silverlight. Also im not a mac or ios dev but I would be surprised if it wasnt the exact same situation. For a start printing wasnt availiable in the first couple of versions of ios so i doubt the apis were there. From the little playing ive done with xcodes interface builder im also fairly certain they have different ui controls.
Also the MVC model used by wpf and winrt are identical there both xaml based. As is windows phone and silverlight. Also im not a mac or ios dev but I would be surprised if it wasnt the exact same situation. For a start printing wasnt availiable in the first couple of versions of ios so i doubt the apis were there. From the little playing ive done with xcodes interface builder im also fairly certain they have different ui controls.
Of course there is different sets of controls in the Interface builder for iOS and OSX and printing wasn't not part of the OSX Core API, but you can use the exact same model and view in Apple IDE to targeted iPhone, iPad and Mac devices, which is not the case for Microsoft ecosystem, you can't target WP8 and Surface device with the same VS project.
All this being said, even if Metro is same as .NET, still there is very few productivity apps who have been updated for Metro, which is the basis of Surface marketing strategy against the iPad by promoting their product has a content producing device. My original premise was about Windows apps being not adapted for tablet form factor and Surface Pro being confront to the exact same issue of previous Tablet PC attempt of being more expensive and less productive than laptops counterpart.
Anyone else enjoying this?
Well, when is Google going to spit out a 64 Bit OS? Whenever they do the OEM Android mfg have to take about 6 to 7 months before they start updating their 64 bit processors. By that time, Apple will be on their SECOND gen 64 bit and then the current 5s will be their second teir product and a year later, Apple will be 100% 64 bit, which Scamscum still spits out the cheap, outdated 32 bit with Gingerbread for $100 losing money on some garbage that should have been discontinued the second they stopped updating the OS.
I still can't figure out why a company would still sell a product that isn't running the latest OS. Apple would NEVER do that. EVER. A product has to be discontinued first before that time frame.
The SAMDROID platform is just a mess.
I'm sure most corporations that buy smartphones won't even touch Android for just that one reason. They certainly can't get bug fixes and security updates very quickly, IF at all.
Apple just needs to spit out a decent large screen which i hope is 6 months away. Apple? if are reading this. Let's get cracking. TImes a wasting and the demand is there.