Not to sound as progressively aggressive as you are, but I've never seen any person around me who buys Blu-Ray disks (though they do know pretty much exactly what it is and what is does). Apple seems to be the only company that understands the future every single time, and actually set out to do things that define the future as well. The era of optical disks is about to end. Everything is now on the cloud, which is much easier for everyone to obtain.
So, the external drives are for the ones like you who continue to prefer optical disks in the world of internet. Also, the whole removable content carriers (like thumb drives) will be soon out of date when the internet is powerful and accessible enough. That's what I feel.
Quote:
Originally Posted by crysisftw
Not to sound as progressively aggressive as you are, but I've never seen any person around me who buys Blu-Ray disks (though they do know pretty much exactly what it is and what is does). Apple seems to be the only company that understands the future every single time, and actually set out to do things that define the future as well. The era of optical disks is about to end. Everything is now on the cloud, which is much easier for everyone to obtain.
So, the external drives are for the ones like you who continue to prefer optical disks in the world of internet. Also, the whole removable content carriers (like thumb drives) will be soon out of date when the internet is powerful and accessible enough. That's what I feel.
Not being aggressive, just responding to people that can say rude baseless things, call me names behind a wall of anonymity. I should ignore them, and I will from now on. They add nothing to the discussion. Blu-ray will be around for a long while yet. Everyone I know has a collection of Blue-rays. Everyone. Everyone I know has a capped internet too. Prohibitively expensive to stream and download everything. I have Netflix, buy media from iTunes, use Hulu. But Blu-ray quality can't be matched most of the time. Extra features on the discs too. I use an external drive on my iMac. But the point of an AIO is that i have more desk space, less clutter. I have to buy an extra drive and software to play the Blu-ray. Apple has no interest in adding blu-ray or DVD, because they have an ecosystem of iTunes. This is their buisiness model. Blu-ray is alive and well. Just go to any big box store. Go to any discount store . They are everywhere. I don't want to go Windows. But Apple is making it hard for me to stay. My point is, Apple should offer options. but, they won't. When everyone can get fast cheap unlimited internet, then optical disks may go the way of the dinosaur. But, thats not happening anytime soon.
We live in a world where the price tag dominates everything. Except then for people to complain the quality is not good enough. What do people expect?
Free aluminum computers with retina displays and one day battery life and a glass trackpad and then also OSX?
Yep.
Critizing what you don't want to buy is getting old stuff.
Most people I know should buy a Mac and use it longer and not buy two or three cheaper PCs in the same amount of time ending with a higher cost....
Anyway. People replace computer much less often than what they used to do because the computer does the job just fine. And Apple computers tend to have a longer lifespan. Believe me. My 17" MacBook Pro with Mavericks lasts some hours more than what it did.
I am thinking about replacing it eventually, but my current setup prevents it.
This needs to show a relation to tablet sales. Many are replacing PC's with iPads. How does this all shape up with iPads factored in...I would be curious.
Not really relevant to the point of the article though, which is that PC sales are improving while Mac sales are declining. Regardless of what's happening with tablets, people are still buying computers but they're not buying Macs.
I suppose there will always be a need for desktops like the iMac and workhorses like the MacPro. I'll definitely replace my 2008 MacPro as soon as the new iteration is out.
Whoop de fricking frick. Stay in the naughties, then.
Also everything from every other port available, yeah.
Are you a gorilla or a moron?
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
How?
Enjoy your Schmidt.
“huge”… “27”” for “gaming”? Are you sure you know what you’re talking about?
Sure they do.
Yes, you’re part of the group of people who want to hold on to archaic technology and claim it’s the future. If we’re shortsighted, never sign me up for LASIK.
Thanks for the incorrect and terrible segue.
“Throw yourself in next time and rid us of your stupidity.”
Utter tripe and you know it.
I understand what you're saying, but I get his point, too. We gotta remember that forum readers like us are not typical computer buyers. The average schmo has no idea what a Thunderbolt is or why he'd need or want one. On the other hand, he DOES know that the shiny box at SuperStuff has a slot in the side so he can play his movies, which seems like it would be convenient (and as recently as yesterday new release movies from Apple still cost 25% more than physical discs from Amazon).
I know how you feel about touchscreen, but a lot of people are gonna be impressed by it, and even among those who understand the gorilla arm implications there are many who think it's a useful addition to -- not replacement for -- traditional input methods.
And let's face it, Apple products are freakin' expensive. I get the whole "Mercedes vs. Chevy" thing, but I can't afford a Mercedes. I sold my wife on the benefits of SSD until she found out how much it cost. Since then she's been treating me like an idiot with no grasp of value for money. Apple choosing to eschew economies of scale by using proprietary storage formats isn't helping.
Hang around a Best Buy computer department for half-an-hour and listen to the shoppers. Getting them to deviate from Windows is enough of a challenge -- telling them that they're gonna have to give up a couple of gee-whizzeries and pay twice as much is a losing battle.
I VERY much prefer OS X over any version of Windows, but I'm frankly not at all surprised that buyers are choosing other products anyway.
I understand what you're saying, but I get his point, too. We gotta remember that forum readers like us are not typical computer buyers. The average schmo has no idea what a Thunderbolt is or why he'd need or want one. On the other hand, he DOES know that the shiny box at SuperStuff has a slot in the side so he can play his movies, which seems like it would be convenient (and as recently as yesterday new release movies from Apple still cost 25% more than physical discs from Amazon).
I know how you feel about touchscreen, but a lot of people are gonna be impressed by it, and even among those who understand the gorilla arm implications there are many who think it's a useful addition to -- not replacement for -- traditional input methods.
And let's face it, Apple products are freakin' expensive. I get the whole "Mercedes vs. Chevy" thing, but I can't afford a Mercedes. I sold my wife on the benefits of SSD until she found out how much it cost. Since then she's been treating me like an idiot with no grasp of value for money. Apple choosing to eschew economies of scale by using proprietary storage formats isn't helping.
Hang around a Best Buy computer department for half-an-hour and listen to the shoppers. Getting them to deviate from Windows is enough of a challenge -- telling them that they're gonna have to give up a couple of gee-whizzeries and pay twice as much is a losing battle.
I VERY much prefer OS X over any version of Windows, but I'm frankly not at all surprised that buyers are choosing other products anyway.
-Retina models still are expensive and have little memory (128gb? of course it is ssd but is this an iPad?), no updates in a long time are a joke. Haswell brings tremendous benefits once Apple shows how to use those CPUs. the retina 13" needs iris to be a viable option.
-cMBP are and look outdated and make the whole mac line look bad. Very expensive for what they offer.
-Air is the best laptop around, but has a shitty screen.
-a 17" retina would only do some good.
Maybe just one air model is more than enough (12")? The costs would come down, wouldn't canibalize retina 13", etc.
iMacs saw haswell too late. It's a crime to use 5400rpm drives. People see the possibility of a 4k screen around the corner.
The mini is a joke as it is. Terribly outdated and expensive despite great form factor.
Pros are waiting for the Pro.
OSX and especially iWork and iLife need more focus.
Which was a year in the decade known as the… *gestures for you to continue* (Where’s the anticipation emoji? This’ll have to do) [SIZE=24px]????[/SIZE]
I'm ready to update the 21.5 inch iMac in my office - but I refuse to buy a computer that requires a trip back to the factory to update or expand the RAM. My only choice is the 27 inch iMac - overkill for my desk. I'll probably buy a used or refurbished "fat" iMac if mine dies. The desire for the iMac to be thin is insane. I'd like a 21.5" iMac with removable RAM, a pair of USB ports on the front, and a built-in CD/DVD drive. My checkbook is ready ....
-Retina models still are expensive and have little memory (128gb? of course it is ssd but is this an iPad?), no updates in a long time are a joke. Haswell brings tremendous benefits once Apple shows how to use those CPUs. the retina 13" needs iris to be a viable option.
-cMBP are and look outdated and make the whole mac line look bad. Very expensive for what they offer.
-Air is the best laptop around, but has a shitty screen.
-a 17" retina would only do some good.
Maybe just one air model is more than enough (12")? The costs would come down, wouldn't canibalize retina 13", etc.
iMacs saw haswell too late. It's a crime to use 5400rpm drives. People see the possibility of a 4k screen around the corner.
The mini is a joke as it is. Terribly outdated and expensive despite great form factor.
Then don't buy one. Problem solved. Considering that you had no intention of buying one, anyway (based on your endless anti-Apple rants), it's no loss.
Apple OS X device sales are dropping, but marketshare is growing against Windows. Wow - that's fucking awesome. Our sales aren't shit, but dammit we're doing better than Windows! See - we got an extra 1% marketshare in 2013! Woo-hoo! If OS X marketshare is growing against Windows, it’s because Windows sales are dropping faster than OS X sales…
And this is… …somehow… …bad? It’s more marketshare.
Originally Posted by wierdninja
Walk into any Best Buy and there are aisles and aisles of blurays. Everyone I know buys blurays and has a collection of blurays. My PS3 plays bluray beautifully. As for every other PC maker, bluray drives are a matter of fact. Bluray will be around for a long time.
Blu-ray won’t see the end of the decade. That’s not conditional, by the way; I’m including the new 200GB discs in that, as well.
I, as a fan of Apple was just thinking out loud, about how nice it would be to have an internal bluray drive that played on OSX natively.
Great. It’s not 2007 anymore. How about thinking out loud about how nice it would be to have actually modern technology in a Mac?
Get your head out of your -ss. By the way moron, I do play bluray on my iMac via external drive and an third party software. The only thing mind numbing is to have to answer a flat headed moronic Neanderthal like you because you can't say anything without insulting someone. Your words are beyond stupid. I only responded to you because I think you are the troll. You just prove your ignorance by opening your mouth. Now I'll just go any watch a Bluray and laugh about what a dope you are.
How would you know, you're dead from the neck up.
I have said nothing derogatory to anyone in this forum.
Not one of your arguments have any facts to support anything you say.
Thanks for summing up all of your posts for when they’re deleted.
Originally Posted by dasanman69
I read it wrong, apologies then.
I figured as much; not many people use ’naughties’. " src="http://forums-files.appleinsider.com/images/smilies//lol.gif" />
Blu-ray won’t see the end of the decade. That’s not conditional, by the way; I’m including the new 200GB discs in that, as well.
Careful how you word things. VHS tapes still exist and I bet these Luddites would still agree that VHS is a dead technology. The point being, without properly wording your comment you'd easily be wrong no matter how unused Blu-ray actually is.
One thing that should tell people that Blu-ray isn't working in the modern era is that even among optical discs it's still a distant second to DVD Check out the next Red Box kiosk you see and check how many of them are Blu-ray. But Red Box is for the el cheapo crowd so Blu-ray isn't a big deal to them, right? I guess that would be a valid argument if Blockbuster didn't crumble years ago and Netflix didn't move the majority of its business to streaming.
The worst part of my comment that the dissenters won't see is that we're only talking about optical media used for studio video. Which was always much stronger than using optical media for moving around every bit of PC data. These people that claim they need to burn DVDs for PC backups are probably still having to re-input manually their contact lists after they get a new flip phone.
Posts like yours are why we can't have nice things
Wat. Apple's Monitors are among the best offered anywhere with few exceptions.
True but they are extremely overpriced, you can purchase two monitors for the same price with the exact same LG panel found in Apples 27" with more inputs. For the same price you can have the incredible 27” NEC MultiSync PA272W-BK, which is probably one of the most incredible none 4K monitors out there.
True but they are extremely overpriced, you can purchase two monitors for the same price with the exact same LG panel found in Apples 27" with more inputs. For the same price you can have the incredible 27” NEC MultiSync PA272W-BK, which is probably one of the most incredible none 4K monitors out there.
The reason why back in 2008 I bought a mac, to leave definitively the PC world, is because I was tired of changing a PC every year and a half, because of degrading performance by the days, and the need to format at least twice a year because of OS becoming full of garbage.
I had a MBP late 2010, it works really well, I am a programmer, I customized my environment to suit my needs, and my productivity increase for about 10% once I relied all my "ecosystem" on Apple family (iphone, ipad, icloud...ecc). Plus I feel, as a consultant, that I have a machine that someone has take great care when it has being built, and I can go working to a client without any worry.
The point is that all is working fine, and this is what I expected, to not worry about the need of switching hardware and start over, and therefore to concentrate on my daily work. So, why should I buy a new MBP or iMac if the one I have is already perfect (for me) ?
True but they are extremely overpriced, you can purchase two monitors for the same price with the exact same LG panel found in Apples 27" with more inputs. For the same price you can have the incredible 27” NEC MultiSync PA272W-BK, which is probably one of the most incredible none 4K monitors out there.
The NEC PA272W-BK, list price is about $600 more than the Apple Thunderbolt monitor, street price is around $300 higher and it's the same resolution. I just checked with a PC reseller and the PA272W-BK, was out of stock.
The other advantage of the Apple monitor is if you buy AppleCare with the computer, the monitor is covered and Apple fixes the monitor on the premises rather than sending it back to NEC for them to fix it. So the Apple has that advantage as well.
The reason why back in 2008 I bought a mac, to leave definitively the PC world, is because I was tired of changing a PC every year and a half, because of degrading performance by the days, and the need to format at least twice a year because of OS becoming full of garbage.
I had a MBP late 2010, it works really well, I am a programmer, I customized my environment to suit my needs, and my productivity increase for about 10% once I relied all my "ecosystem" on Apple family (iphone, ipad, icloud...ecc). Plus I feel, as a consultant, that I have a machine that someone has take great care when it has being built, and I can go working to a client without any worry.
The point is that all is working fine, and this is what I expected, to not worry about the need of switching hardware and start over, and therefore to concentrate on my daily work. So, why should I buy a new MBP or iMac if the one I have is already perfect (for me) ?
Comments
Apple would have roughly 18% worldwide market share if tablets were counted as computers.
71.8 million Windows PCs and 30.5 million Android/other tablets last quarter... for a grand total of 102.3 million.
And Apple with 3.8 million Macs and 14.6 million iPads last quarter... for a grand total of 18.4 million.
Not bad.
Not to sound as progressively aggressive as you are, but I've never seen any person around me who buys Blu-Ray disks (though they do know pretty much exactly what it is and what is does). Apple seems to be the only company that understands the future every single time, and actually set out to do things that define the future as well. The era of optical disks is about to end. Everything is now on the cloud, which is much easier for everyone to obtain.
So, the external drives are for the ones like you who continue to prefer optical disks in the world of internet. Also, the whole removable content carriers (like thumb drives) will be soon out of date when the internet is powerful and accessible enough. That's what I feel.
Not to sound as progressively aggressive as you are, but I've never seen any person around me who buys Blu-Ray disks (though they do know pretty much exactly what it is and what is does). Apple seems to be the only company that understands the future every single time, and actually set out to do things that define the future as well. The era of optical disks is about to end. Everything is now on the cloud, which is much easier for everyone to obtain.
So, the external drives are for the ones like you who continue to prefer optical disks in the world of internet. Also, the whole removable content carriers (like thumb drives) will be soon out of date when the internet is powerful and accessible enough. That's what I feel.
Not being aggressive, just responding to people that can say rude baseless things, call me names behind a wall of anonymity. I should ignore them, and I will from now on. They add nothing to the discussion. Blu-ray will be around for a long while yet. Everyone I know has a collection of Blue-rays. Everyone. Everyone I know has a capped internet too. Prohibitively expensive to stream and download everything. I have Netflix, buy media from iTunes, use Hulu. But Blu-ray quality can't be matched most of the time. Extra features on the discs too. I use an external drive on my iMac. But the point of an AIO is that i have more desk space, less clutter. I have to buy an extra drive and software to play the Blu-ray. Apple has no interest in adding blu-ray or DVD, because they have an ecosystem of iTunes. This is their buisiness model. Blu-ray is alive and well. Just go to any big box store. Go to any discount store . They are everywhere. I don't want to go Windows. But Apple is making it hard for me to stay. My point is, Apple should offer options. but, they won't. When everyone can get fast cheap unlimited internet, then optical disks may go the way of the dinosaur. But, thats not happening anytime soon.
We live in a world where the price tag dominates everything. Except then for people to complain the quality is not good enough. What do people expect?
Free aluminum computers with retina displays and one day battery life and a glass trackpad and then also OSX?
Yep.
Critizing what you don't want to buy is getting old stuff.
Most people I know should buy a Mac and use it longer and not buy two or three cheaper PCs in the same amount of time ending with a higher cost....
Anyway. People replace computer much less often than what they used to do because the computer does the job just fine. And Apple computers tend to have a longer lifespan. Believe me. My 17" MacBook Pro with Mavericks lasts some hours more than what it did.
I am thinking about replacing it eventually, but my current setup prevents it.
So I'll wait for maybe next year.
In the hope SSD comes down in price.
This needs to show a relation to tablet sales. Many are replacing PC's with iPads. How does this all shape up with iPads factored in...I would be curious.
Not really relevant to the point of the article though, which is that PC sales are improving while Mac sales are declining. Regardless of what's happening with tablets, people are still buying computers but they're not buying Macs.
Whoop de fricking frick. Stay in the naughties, then.
Also everything from every other port available, yeah.
Are you a gorilla or a moron?
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
How?
Enjoy your Schmidt.
“huge”… “27”” for “gaming”? Are you sure you know what you’re talking about?
Sure they do.
Yes, you’re part of the group of people who want to hold on to archaic technology and claim it’s the future. If we’re shortsighted, never sign me up for LASIK.
Thanks for the incorrect and terrible segue.
“Throw yourself in next time and rid us of your stupidity.”
Utter tripe and you know it.
I understand what you're saying, but I get his point, too. We gotta remember that forum readers like us are not typical computer buyers. The average schmo has no idea what a Thunderbolt is or why he'd need or want one. On the other hand, he DOES know that the shiny box at SuperStuff has a slot in the side so he can play his movies, which seems like it would be convenient (and as recently as yesterday new release movies from Apple still cost 25% more than physical discs from Amazon).
I know how you feel about touchscreen, but a lot of people are gonna be impressed by it, and even among those who understand the gorilla arm implications there are many who think it's a useful addition to -- not replacement for -- traditional input methods.
And let's face it, Apple products are freakin' expensive. I get the whole "Mercedes vs. Chevy" thing, but I can't afford a Mercedes. I sold my wife on the benefits of SSD until she found out how much it cost. Since then she's been treating me like an idiot with no grasp of value for money. Apple choosing to eschew economies of scale by using proprietary storage formats isn't helping.
Hang around a Best Buy computer department for half-an-hour and listen to the shoppers. Getting them to deviate from Windows is enough of a challenge -- telling them that they're gonna have to give up a couple of gee-whizzeries and pay twice as much is a losing battle.
I VERY much prefer OS X over any version of Windows, but I'm frankly not at all surprised that buyers are choosing other products anyway.
I understand what you're saying, but I get his point, too. We gotta remember that forum readers like us are not typical computer buyers. The average schmo has no idea what a Thunderbolt is or why he'd need or want one. On the other hand, he DOES know that the shiny box at SuperStuff has a slot in the side so he can play his movies, which seems like it would be convenient (and as recently as yesterday new release movies from Apple still cost 25% more than physical discs from Amazon).
I know how you feel about touchscreen, but a lot of people are gonna be impressed by it, and even among those who understand the gorilla arm implications there are many who think it's a useful addition to -- not replacement for -- traditional input methods.
And let's face it, Apple products are freakin' expensive. I get the whole "Mercedes vs. Chevy" thing, but I can't afford a Mercedes. I sold my wife on the benefits of SSD until she found out how much it cost. Since then she's been treating me like an idiot with no grasp of value for money. Apple choosing to eschew economies of scale by using proprietary storage formats isn't helping.
Hang around a Best Buy computer department for half-an-hour and listen to the shoppers. Getting them to deviate from Windows is enough of a challenge -- telling them that they're gonna have to give up a couple of gee-whizzeries and pay twice as much is a losing battle.
I VERY much prefer OS X over any version of Windows, but I'm frankly not at all surprised that buyers are choosing other products anyway.
This is where you lose your credibility.
Problems with Mac Line:
-Retina models still are expensive and have little memory (128gb? of course it is ssd but is this an iPad?), no updates in a long time are a joke. Haswell brings tremendous benefits once Apple shows how to use those CPUs. the retina 13" needs iris to be a viable option.
-cMBP are and look outdated and make the whole mac line look bad. Very expensive for what they offer.
-Air is the best laptop around, but has a shitty screen.
-a 17" retina would only do some good.
Maybe just one air model is more than enough (12")? The costs would come down, wouldn't canibalize retina 13", etc.
iMacs saw haswell too late. It's a crime to use 5400rpm drives. People see the possibility of a 4k screen around the corner.
The mini is a joke as it is. Terribly outdated and expensive despite great form factor.
Pros are waiting for the Pro.
OSX and especially iWork and iLife need more focus.
I read it wrong, apologies then.
I'm ready to update the 21.5 inch iMac in my office - but I refuse to buy a computer that requires a trip back to the factory to update or expand the RAM. My only choice is the 27 inch iMac - overkill for my desk. I'll probably buy a used or refurbished "fat" iMac if mine dies. The desire for the iMac to be thin is insane. I'd like a 21.5" iMac with removable RAM, a pair of USB ports on the front, and a built-in CD/DVD drive. My checkbook is ready ....
Then don't buy one. Problem solved. Considering that you had no intention of buying one, anyway (based on your endless anti-Apple rants), it's no loss.
And this is… …somehow… …bad? It’s more marketshare.
Blu-ray won’t see the end of the decade. That’s not conditional, by the way; I’m including the new 200GB discs in that, as well.
Great. It’s not 2007 anymore. How about thinking out loud about how nice it would be to have actually modern technology in a Mac?
Thanks for summing up all of your posts for when they’re deleted.
I figured as much; not many people use ’naughties’.
" src="http://forums-files.appleinsider.com/images/smilies//lol.gif" />
Love my MBA 11", LOVE my new iPhone 5s !
Still love my old Quad G5.... BUT, my credit card is waiting for the new Mac Pro ! Come on Apple :-)
Careful how you word things. VHS tapes still exist and I bet these Luddites would still agree that VHS is a dead technology. The point being, without properly wording your comment you'd easily be wrong no matter how unused Blu-ray actually is.
One thing that should tell people that Blu-ray isn't working in the modern era is that even among optical discs it's still a distant second to DVD Check out the next Red Box kiosk you see and check how many of them are Blu-ray. But Red Box is for the el cheapo crowd so Blu-ray isn't a big deal to them, right? I guess that would be a valid argument if Blockbuster didn't crumble years ago and Netflix didn't move the majority of its business to streaming.
The worst part of my comment that the dissenters won't see is that we're only talking about optical media used for studio video. Which was always much stronger than using optical media for moving around every bit of PC data. These people that claim they need to burn DVDs for PC backups are probably still having to re-input manually their contact lists after they get a new flip phone.
Posts like yours are why we can't have nice things
Wat. Apple's Monitors are among the best offered anywhere with few exceptions.
True but they are extremely overpriced, you can purchase two monitors for the same price with the exact same LG panel found in Apples 27" with more inputs. For the same price you can have the incredible 27” NEC MultiSync PA272W-BK, which is probably one of the most incredible none 4K monitors out there.
No you can't.
I had a MBP late 2010, it works really well, I am a programmer, I customized my environment to suit my needs, and my productivity increase for about 10% once I relied all my "ecosystem" on Apple family (iphone, ipad, icloud...ecc). Plus I feel, as a consultant, that I have a machine that someone has take great care when it has being built, and I can go working to a client without any worry.
The point is that all is working fine, and this is what I expected, to not worry about the need of switching hardware and start over, and therefore to concentrate on my daily work. So, why should I buy a new MBP or iMac if the one I have is already perfect (for me) ?
True but they are extremely overpriced, you can purchase two monitors for the same price with the exact same LG panel found in Apples 27" with more inputs. For the same price you can have the incredible 27” NEC MultiSync PA272W-BK, which is probably one of the most incredible none 4K monitors out there.
The NEC PA272W-BK, list price is about $600 more than the Apple Thunderbolt monitor, street price is around $300 higher and it's the same resolution. I just checked with a PC reseller and the PA272W-BK, was out of stock.
The other advantage of the Apple monitor is if you buy AppleCare with the computer, the monitor is covered and Apple fixes the monitor on the premises rather than sending it back to NEC for them to fix it. So the Apple has that advantage as well.
I had a MBP late 2010, it works really well, I am a programmer, I customized my environment to suit my needs, and my productivity increase for about 10% once I relied all my "ecosystem" on Apple family (iphone, ipad, icloud...ecc). Plus I feel, as a consultant, that I have a machine that someone has take great care when it has being built, and I can go working to a client without any worry.
The point is that all is working fine, and this is what I expected, to not worry about the need of switching hardware and start over, and therefore to concentrate on my daily work. So, why should I buy a new MBP or iMac if the one I have is already perfect (for me) ?