Apple's cylindrical Mac Pro will debut in Dec. starting at $2,999

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  • Reply 201 of 285
    relicrelic Posts: 4,735member
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by auxio View Post

     

    Yeah, sorry about that.  Usually when a thread gets beyond 3 pages, it's already off topic (as this one was), but I got a bit carried away...

     


     

    Yeah that happens when you start in with DrBlank, I think he's a retired gentleman who spends his days yelling at the kids to stay off his lawn. Mr. Grumpy is what I call him, I still don't know what Apple products he owns. I never see him discussing what he actually does with his machines, the actual benefits of using Apple products (talking about personal experiences) mostly just yells at us for being a bunch of Nintendo playing, punk hacker kids, who just want to steal Apple's hard earned money. I also never see him helping people in the Genius Bar like the rest of us so his actual knowledge of how OSX or iOS works may be limited to just surfing Fox news and Republican Party websites. Oooops I've been a bad girl, he's going to yell at me now. Let's see what he calls me first an idiot or a troll. Mr Grumpy, hhhehehehheheh, I love him.

  • Reply 202 of 285
    frank777frank777 Posts: 5,789member

    Just saw the estimated cost of the D300 by Architosh.

     

    I wonder, could Apple surprise and allow print publishing users to configure a Pro with only one FirePro card?

     

    Adobe CS print publishers likely don't need dual cards, but they're still part of the pro market.

     

    Could just deleting one graphics card bring the machine a lot closer to the traditional $2,499 starting price?

  • Reply 203 of 285
    MarvinMarvin Posts: 14,217moderator
    frank777 wrote: »
    Just saw the estimated cost of the D300 by Architosh.

    I wonder, could Apple surprise and allow print publishing users to configure a Pro with only one FirePro card?

    Adobe CS print publishers likely don't need dual cards, but they're still part of the pro market.

    Could just deleting one graphics card bring the machine a lot closer to the traditional $2,499 starting price?

    I checked out the specs of some AMD cards earlier and found the following ones matched:

    The D300 is 2GB, 1280 SP, 256-bit, 160GB/s, 2TFlops = V7900 ( http://www.amd.com/us/products/workstation/graphics/ati-firepro-3d/v7900/Pages/v7900.aspx = $629 each on newegg )
    D500 is 3GB, 1526 SP, 384-bit, 240GB/s, 2.2TFlops = roughly half an S10000? ( http://www.amd.com/us/products/workstation/graphics/firepro-remote-graphics/S10000/Pages/S10000.aspx#3 )
    D700 is 6GB, 2048 SP, 384-bit, 264GB/s, 3.5TFlops = S9000/W9000 ( http://www.amd.com/us/products/workstation/graphics/firepro-remote-graphics/S9000/Pages/S9000.aspx#3 = $2199 S9000, $3399 W9000)

    The S10000 is a dual GPU sold as a single unit so it looks like the D500 is half of it. The Mac Pro with dual D500 should be like having a single S10000. The dual D700 should be like having a dual S9000 and the entry model like a dual V7900. Notice the S9000 is only $2200 retail so if they got a really good deal with AMD, it may only be a $2-3k premium over the lower models.

    If they had taken one of the GPUs out of the Mac Pro on the entry, it might have dropped the price down to $2499 but it depends on the deal with AMD. AMD might have given them a 2 for 1 deal or just a slightly extra charge for the second GPU. It wouldn't make sense to take the second one out if they got a great deal for two. It helps AMD's supplier relations because they have to commit to a certain volume.

    They should all drive 4K displays quite well, which could be useful with publishing. 4K is like print-quality text rendering. For people who want single CPU and GPU, that's what the iMac and MBP are for. Not much sense in paying for a Mac Pro box for $2500 when a $2500 iMac has everything required and a 27" IPS display.
  • Reply 204 of 285
    drblankdrblank Posts: 3,383member
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Marvin View Post





    I checked out the specs of some AMD cards earlier and found the following ones matched:



    The D300 is 2GB, 1280 SP, 256-bit, 160GB/s, 2TFlops = V7900 ( http://www.amd.com/us/products/workstation/graphics/ati-firepro-3d/v7900/Pages/v7900.aspx = $629 each on newegg )

    D500 is 3GB, 1526 SP, 384-bit, 240GB/s, 2.2TFlops = roughly half an S10000? ( http://www.amd.com/us/products/workstation/graphics/firepro-remote-graphics/S10000/Pages/S10000.aspx#3 )

    D700 is 6GB, 2048 SP, 384-bit, 264GB/s, 3.5TFlops = S9000/W9000 ( http://www.amd.com/us/products/workstation/graphics/firepro-remote-graphics/S9000/Pages/S9000.aspx#3 = $2199 S9000, $3399 W9000)



    The S10000 is a dual GPU sold as a single unit so it looks like the D500 is half of it. The Mac Pro with dual D500 should be like having a single S10000. The dual D700 should be like having a dual S9000 and the entry model like a dual V7900.



    If they had taken one of the GPUs out of the Mac Pro on the entry, it might have dropped the price down to $2499 but it depends on the deal with AMD. AMD might have given them a 2 for 1 deal or just a slightly extra charge for the second GPU. It wouldn't make sense to take the second one out if they got a great deal for two. It helps AMD's supplier relations because they have to commit to a certain volume.



    They should all drive 4K displays quite well, which might help with publishing. 4K is like print-quality text rendering. For people who want single CPU and GPU, that's what the iMac and MBP are for. Not much sense in paying for a Mac Pro box for $2500 when a $2500 iMac has everything required and a 27" IPS display.

    But if Apple is giving you two of each processor, then it might not be like a 1/2 of something else, etc.

     

    Can the APIs allow them to combine the processing power of two GPUs/memory even if someone is only using 1 monitor?  I'm not a developer so I'm not fully aware of what code they can utilize for this new dual GPU design.  

  • Reply 205 of 285
    relicrelic Posts: 4,735member
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by drblank View Post

     

    Can the APIs allow them to combine the processing power of two GPUs/memory even if someone is only using 1 monitor?  I'm not a developer so I'm not fully aware of what code they can utilize for this new dual GPU design.  


     

    Yes, unlike the older generation of MacPro's that didn't support Crossfire the new models will be able to combine the GPU's.

  • Reply 206 of 285
    drblankdrblank Posts: 3,383member
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Relic View Post

     

     

    Yes, unlike the older generation of MacPro's that didn't support Crossfire the new models will be able to combine the GPU's.


    That's nice.....  I really wish they showed a bunch of pro apps and compared the last gen MacPro to a new gen MacPro and showed actual speed test comparisons.

     

    Maybe Apple will release their new monitors and do that.

     

    I know this is kind of different topic, but I'm wondering what they might do with MacMini and whether or not they will release a higher end i7 based pro-prosumer model to fit in between.  I noticed the new iMacs didn't have Thunderbolt 2, but the new MacBookProRetinas did.  

     

    Not all pros actually need or want a Xeon based system, but they do want better graphics, more ram, etc. with a higher end i7.

  • Reply 207 of 285
    relicrelic Posts: 4,735member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Marvin View Post





    I checked out the specs of some AMD cards earlier and found the following ones matched:



    The D300 is 2GB, 1280 SP, 256-bit, 160GB/s, 2TFlops = V7900 ( http://www.amd.com/us/products/workstation/graphics/ati-firepro-3d/v7900/Pages/v7900.aspx = $629 each on newegg )

    D500 is 3GB, 1526 SP, 384-bit, 240GB/s, 2.2TFlops = roughly half an S10000? ( http://www.amd.com/us/products/workstation/graphics/firepro-remote-graphics/S10000/Pages/S10000.aspx#3 )

    D700 is 6GB, 2048 SP, 384-bit, 264GB/s, 3.5TFlops = S9000/W9000 ( http://www.amd.com/us/products/workstation/graphics/firepro-remote-graphics/S9000/Pages/S9000.aspx#3 = $2199 S9000, $3399 W9000)



    The S10000 is a dual GPU sold as a single unit so it looks like the D500 is half of it. The Mac Pro with dual D500 should be like having a single S10000. The dual D700 should be like having a dual S9000 and the entry model like a dual V7900. Notice the S9000 is only $2200 retail so if they got a really good deal with AMD, it may only be a $2-3k premium over the lower models.



    If they had taken one of the GPUs out of the Mac Pro on the entry, it might have dropped the price down to $2499 but it depends on the deal with AMD. AMD might have given them a 2 for 1 deal or just a slightly extra charge for the second GPU. It wouldn't make sense to take the second one out if they got a great deal for two. It helps AMD's supplier relations because they have to commit to a certain volume.



    They should all drive 4K displays quite well, which could be useful with publishing. 4K is like print-quality text rendering. For people who want single CPU and GPU, that's what the iMac and MBP are for. Not much sense in paying for a Mac Pro box for $2500 when a $2500 iMac has everything required and a 27" IPS display.

    You need to compare the D300 to the W500, it's cheaper at only 400 per card, is faster and the v7900 has been discontinued. I'm actually surprised Amazon is still selling the V7900 .

     

    These are defiantly custom solutions, manufactured specifically for Apple as the D500 and D700 really don't match up to any existing card from AMD, spec to spec. The real value of all three I think will be the 4,000 dollar mid machine with the D700, that would defiantly be my choice. Video cards themselves will cost 2500 bucks. This is an interesting read on the whole graphics thing.

  • Reply 208 of 285
    MarvinMarvin Posts: 14,217moderator
    drblank wrote: »
    I really wish they showed a bunch of pro apps and compared the last gen MacPro to a new gen MacPro and showed actual speed test comparisons.

    They did that here:

    http://www.apple.com/mac-pro/performance/

    They said their Luxmark OpenCL test is 4.8x faster for the complex benchmark. That would put it in the top 20 on the score site:

    http://www.luxrender.net/luxmark/top/top20/Room

    Some of the results look inaccurate but they should all be multiple GPUs.
    relic wrote:
    I think their using the W5000 not the V7900. The V7900 has been discontinued and replaced by the W5000, it's also cheaper at only 400 per card and is faster. I'm actually surprised Amazon is still selling the V7900.

    Are you sure it's discontinued? Maybe that's how they got them cheap. ;) The D300 spec matches the V7900 almost exactly. The W5000 has lower memory bandwidth and performance. Newegg sells the V7900 too:

    http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814195107
  • Reply 209 of 285
    frank777frank777 Posts: 5,789member
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Marvin View Post



    They should all drive 4K displays quite well, which could be useful with publishing. 4K is like print-quality text rendering.

     

    Good point. Would software like Quark and InDesign require another update to support 4K?

     

    Adobe just updated ID to support Retina recently.

  • Reply 210 of 285
    drblankdrblank Posts: 3,383member
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Marvin View Post





    They did that here:



    http://www.apple.com/mac-pro/performance/



    They said their Luxmark OpenCL test is 4.8x faster for the complex benchmark. That would put it in the top 20 on the score site:



    http://www.luxrender.net/luxmark/top/top20/Room



    Some of the results look inaccurate but they should all be multiple GPUs.

    Are you sure it's discontinued? Maybe that's how they got them cheap. image The D300 spec matches the V7900 almost exactly. The W5000 has lower memory bandwidth and performance. Newegg sells the V7900 too:



    http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814195107

    I was referring to actual demos, not bar graphs.   I had a difficult time reading the fine print at the bottom where it lists the baseline configuration.  My eye sight isn't that good at that font size with white on black lettering and I am a little lazy.  I think it would be more impressive to people if they SEE it happening rather than some bar graphs.  They used to do this way back when and it has a different impact, which they kind of needed.  They might have more jaws dropping at the announcement.

  • Reply 211 of 285
    MarvinMarvin Posts: 14,217moderator
    frank777 wrote: »
    Good point. Would software like Quark and InDesign require another update to support 4K?

    Adobe just updated ID to support Retina recently.

    Once they support Retina displays, the only way they'd need another upgrade is if the users upgraded their retinas.
  • Reply 212 of 285
    relicrelic Posts: 4,735member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by drblank View Post

     

    That's nice.....  I really wish they showed a bunch of pro apps and compared the last gen MacPro to a new gen MacPro and showed actual speed test comparisons.

     

    Maybe Apple will release their new monitors and do that.

     

    I know this is kind of different topic, but I'm wondering what they might do with MacMini and whether or not they will release a higher end i7 based pro-prosumer model to fit in between.  I noticed the new iMacs didn't have Thunderbolt 2, but the new MacBookProRetinas did.  

     

    Not all pros actually need or want a Xeon based system, but they do want better graphics, more ram, etc. with a higher end i7.


     

    Well the Intel Core i7-3615QM in the current Mac Mini is no slouch, if you take a look here you'll see that the CPU speed is already very fast. With the new one just around the corner we can expect those numbers to improve and we have a new Intel graphics chip to look forward too which will be a LOT better then previous models. I know this is going to sound weird but CPU wise the Mac Mini isn't that much slower than the entry level Mac Pro. Yes the XEON offers more cache, stability and other on die featuers but in term of raw performance it's only a couple of thousand points higher on the CPU scale. It's the system bus, PCIe SSD and of course GPU's that will make the biggest difference,

  • Reply 213 of 285
    relicrelic Posts: 4,735member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Marvin View Post





    They did that here:



    http://www.apple.com/mac-pro/performance/



    They said their Luxmark OpenCL test is 4.8x faster for the complex benchmark. That would put it in the top 20 on the score site:



    http://www.luxrender.net/luxmark/top/top20/Room



    Some of the results look inaccurate but they should all be multiple GPUs.

    Are you sure it's discontinued? Maybe that's how they got them cheap. image The D300 spec matches the V7900 almost exactly. The W5000 has lower memory bandwidth and performance. Newegg sells the V7900 too:



    http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814195107

    The memory bandwith might be a little different but the W5000 still benchmarks higher, yea I'm pretty sure it's no longer available but your right maybe they are using the v7900, they bought the left overstock or something. They took them off the shelf at my near by dealer, I wanted to see if I can get one cheaper. No luck, I bought a W7000 instead but I got it for 520CHF instead of the 720CHF they were asking for, open box test model but who cares. FANTASTIC card, ATI is defiantly the way to go, unfortunately it wasn't for me but my neighbor. We updated his Nvidia K600, which also wasn't a bad card for the price but the W7000 is just WOW!!!!!!! So two D700's are going to be killer in the new MacPro.

  • Reply 214 of 285
    hmmhmm Posts: 3,405member

     

     


    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Marvin View Post







    Some of the results look inaccurate but they should all be multiple GPUs.

    Are you sure it's discontinued? Maybe that's how they got them cheap. image The D300 spec matches the V7900 almost exactly. The W5000 has lower memory bandwidth and performance. Newegg sells the V7900 too:



    http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814195107

     

    This seems really unlikely to me given the age of that card and the length of refresh cycles tied to Xeon EP hardware. I've found a few spec comparisons that try to discern whether it closely aligned with a reference design or if they chopped down the hardware framebuffer of a mid range card somewhere. Anyway I haven't been over that enough to comment, but I did look up the old V7900 specs as I recalled it being a PCI 2 card due to its age. It only supports as far as OpenCL 1.1. The maximum resolution supported is 2560x1600. Its generation makes me think it's an unlikely choice, not that I would put it past Apple or any other oem, as they all like to squeeze margins on items like this.

     

    http://www.amd.com/us/products/workstation/graphics/ati-firepro-3d/v7900/Pages/v7900.aspx#2

  • Reply 215 of 285
    relicrelic Posts: 4,735member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by hmm View Post

     

     

     

     

    This seems really unlikely to me given the age of that card and the length of refresh cycles tied to Xeon EP hardware. I've found a few spec comparisons that try to discern whether it closely aligned with a reference design or if they chopped down the hardware framebuffer of a mid range card somewhere. Anyway I haven't been over that enough to comment, but I did look up the old V7900 specs as I recalled it being a PCI 2 card due to its age. It only supports as far as OpenCL 1.1. The maximum resolution supported is 2560x1600. Its generation makes me think it's an unlikely choice, not that I would put it past Apple or any other oem, as they all like to squeeze margins on items like this.

     

    http://www.amd.com/us/products/workstation/graphics/ati-firepro-3d/v7900/Pages/v7900.aspx#2


    It's actually been really difficult trying to match up the new MacPros's ATI GPU's with ATI's current line up. The mid tier MacPro's D500 GPU is really driving me crazy. I'm currently in the hospital so I have plenty of time to stare at my tablet but with all the research I've done so far all I can come up with is that the D500 is closest to the w8000 but the price and other differences is throwing me off. I think what's happening here is that Apple is buying the GPU chips from AMD and building the boards themselves. I don't think this is a ATI reference design but a whole new beast. What do you guys think? I mean they must be, right. We all know the biggest price for the FireGL cards comes from drivers and the firmware. So Apple is buying 7950/60/70 chips and are writing their own drivers to make them FireGL's, hence the inexpensive price. Workstation GPU cards use the exact same chips as their gamer brethren, their identical in every way. It 's the drivers, firmware, ECC memory that make them workstation cards.

  • Reply 216 of 285
    drblankdrblank Posts: 3,383member
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Marvin View Post





    Once they support Retina displays, the only way they'd need another upgrade is if the users upgraded their retinas.

    I think the next important development with displays is not just higher resolution, it will be with displaying more colors on the screens.  Instead of millions, it will be tens of millions, hundreds of millions of billions.

  • Reply 217 of 285
    hmmhmm Posts: 3,405member
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Relic View Post

     

    It's actually been really difficult trying to match up the new MacPros's ATI GPU's with ATI's current line up. The mid tier MacPro's D500 GPU is really driving me crazy. I'm currently in the hospital so I have plenty of time to stare at my tablet but with all the research I've done so far all I can come up with is that the D500 is closest to the w8000 but the price and other differences is throwing me off. I think what's happening here is that Apple is buying the GPU chips from AMD and building the boards themselves.


    Bleh that really sucks :(.



     

    Quote:


    I don't think this is a ATI reference design but a whole new beast. What do you guys think? I mean they must be, right. We all know the biggest price for the FireGL cards comes from drivers and the firmware. So Apple is buying 7950/60/70 chips and are writing their own drivers to make them FireGL's, hence the inexpensive price. Workstation GPU cards use the exact same chips as their gamer brethren, their identical in every way. It 's the drivers, firmware, ECC memory that make them workstation cards.

     



    I've speculated on similar things. I figured Apple probably purchased the chips and licensed the Firepro name, then contracted whatever company to design/produce custom boards. I think it may be more likely that they cut down a mid-range card. The V7900 just has so much stuff that is out of date, and they haven't even started to ship mac pros yet. To me it seems silly given the limitations of that hardware.

  • Reply 218 of 285
    MarvinMarvin Posts: 14,217moderator
    relic wrote: »
    I think what's happening here is that Apple is buying the GPU chips from AMD and building the boards themselves. I don't think this is a ATI reference design but a whole new beast. What do you guys think? I mean they must be, right.

    I would expect it's Apple building the GPU boards. I thought it was odd when Phil mentioned about people knowing how much D300s cost at the last event and the audience was pretty silent, same way they were when he said 6 Firewire 2 ports before and when he referred to Batman as the Black Knight (maybe Samuel L Jackson will be up against Henry Cavill in the next movie). Nobody knows what D300s cost when they are Apple's identifiers. Unless the Black Knight knows, I'll contact him over my Firewire 2 port.
  • Reply 219 of 285
    hmmhmm Posts: 3,405member
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by drblank View Post

     

    I think the next important development with displays is not just higher resolution, it will be with displaying more colors on the screens.  Instead of millions, it will be tens of millions, hundreds of millions of billions.


    10 bit panels do exist, meaning 2^10 combinations per channel rather than 2^8 so the total possible output colors would be 3(2^10) rather than 3(2^8). What you may not realize is that these things will not expand much in gamut without drastic changes. As of right now we view in gamma corrected spaces, which are partly inherent to the electronics, yet overall provide a decent method of viewing quantized images over a low dynamics range. The biggest current effect is better shadow detail and an elimination of banding that can otherwise crop up as displays age as well as a reduced reliance on hardware applied dithering (not sure if that's the right term, but I'm referring to internal display calculations). Apple has repeatedly stated they have no plans to add driver support for 3rd party 10 bit displays, but I'm sure when they come out with one, they'll make sure to advertise it everywhere.

     

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Marvin View Post





    I would expect it's Apple building the GPU boards. I thought it was odd when Phil mentioned about people knowing how much D300s cost at the last event and the audience was pretty silent, same way they were when he said 6 Firewire 2 ports before and when he referred to Batman as the Black Knight (maybe Samuel L Jackson will be up against Henry Cavill in the next movie). Nobody knows what D300s cost when they are Apple's identifiers. Unless the Black Knight knows, I'll contact him over my Firewire 2 port.



    I didn't watch that event, but yeah I thought they might avoid a direct comparison to PC parts. As I said before, it could be predominantly branding.

  • Reply 220 of 285
    relicrelic Posts: 4,735member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by hmm View Post

    I didn't watch that event, but yeah I thought they might avoid a direct comparison to PC parts. As I said before, it could be predominantly branding.


     

    Are the GPU boards soldered onto the motherboard, it would be really interesting to yank out one out and see how well it performs when put up against a ATI counterpart. The more I look at the 4,000 dollar model the more I want it. I've recently been offered 2,800 for my custom HP Z from a friend of my husbands and I could sell my iMac easiliy for another 1500 so I think I'm going to do it. I'll take the extra money and will buy another 30" Nec monitor for a total of three, plus up the memory to 64GB using third party RAMS of course, Apple charges way to much for theirs. When does the pre-order site come online?

     

    What do you guys think, better than having just one 4k monitor and cheaper too. Not to mention the coolness factor will be off the charts. Finding a wallpaper is going to be a bitch though.

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