Irish school's attempt to replace books with HP tablets results in 'unmitigated disaster'

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  • Reply 21 of 186
    I've seen it countless times before. They don't all chose what is best for kids in the school system. They chose something that this person has a connection to or is buddies with. All about politics & NOT what is best for the kids. the iPad (& the Mac before it) has proven itself in tons of schools, so if you chose an inferior tablet/system it's your own damn fault.
  • Reply 22 of 186
    The school fell into a trap laid by Microsoft, the illusion of transferring a laptop's use cases to a tablet. The allure of transferring all the existing software investment is part of the attraction. Schools are full of unnecessary proprietary software when there are plenty of open source alternatives like Libreoffice now.

    The dyed in the wool corporate types I know all prophesied that tablets like the Surface would beat the iPad because the were 'proper' PC's in tablet form. Its a mistake, a 'category' error, tablets are not PC's.

    The reality is that the modality of the tablet is quite different from a PC or laptop. Students need laptops to do laptop things, at least with the current level of technology. If all they need to do is read an ebook then nearly any tablet will suffice, and there are many cheaper including some from Apple.

    The Principal of the school is partly to blame for falling into the trap, but the trap has been laid by the vendors who are more culpable because they ought to know better.
  • Reply 23 of 186
    I gather that they bought into the whole Microcrap Active Directory's ease of use to deploy (re: minute level of control) windows tablet applications and enforce strict security with control virus protection. All vendors promise the same thing until they don't pick up the phone and when they do it's always "not in scope" or "that's a software issue". The blame game starts up.

    There is nothing particularly wrong with a controlled environment when implemented well. But does it really take a $10K server investment, $20K education and certification process, $100K support contract to simply deploy tablet apps and allow for wiping, locking down or re-imaging? I think not. May corps are buying into $499 mini servers from Apple, free to $20 server software and basic training to deploy thousands of iPads, iPhones and Macs easily. That's why educ-markets are buying them in droves as their budgets are so paper thin, and the solution(s) rock solid. It doesn't take an idiot to see this.

    HP and the "others" are still thinking we are existing in 1982 and that everyone will come knocking down to buy their expensive crap solutions that lock them in for life. Even when they ill support 2 years later, change software distribution rules twice yearly, pad contracts to maintain large employee pools and attempt to skim razor thin profit margins through volume only. It's like talking to Uncle Charlie about the war. Always the same story over and over again. Even if he means well.
  • Reply 24 of 186
    tzeshantzeshan Posts: 2,351member
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Binkwilder View Post

     

    Windows 8 is a dud.  I have been a fan or Windows for over 2 decades.  I don't understand Win 8.  I also would never buy anything with the HP logo on it.  Android or Apple really should have been their choice.  What rational mind could have come up with Win 8 and HP.  They should be fired.




    What word processing program is available on Androids?

  • Reply 25 of 186
    irelandireland Posts: 17,749member

    lol

  • Reply 26 of 186
    "We're not blaming anyone" for the failures, Gleeson said.

    Surely that's just shorthand for "it's my fault"?!

    Considering they were forcing parents to buy these things - one has to wonder exactly how this product was selected. How many "fact finding" trips and "networking opportunities" were involved? Probably more than Apple, with their well proven product, would have paid for I'm guessing.
  • Reply 27 of 186
    clemynx wrote: »
    The article seems to indicate that these are a lot more expensive than iPads, but this is only 50€ more than an iPad. Yes, we pay 700+ $ for those...:/
    Still, HP makes crappy computers and crappy products. A Sony tablet may have been better. Or just an iPad for that price.
    The article says that students were required to purchase the HP product. Surely, if the school required the purchase, they could have gone one step further and purchased the product in bulk. They could have gotten an educational program discount from HP or from Apple were that the case. And, the cost could have been covered by a tuition or fees request. In the end, it would be less expensive that way.

    Yes, if blame is to be had, HP deserves it for product failure. As do the school's IT guys — if such exist. From the article, it doesn't sound like their problems were software-based, so Microsoft gets a walk. (Unfortunately.)
  • Reply 28 of 186
    Obviously, the school wanted a full-featured PC for their students so they can do word processing while multitasking with other apps to do research simultaneously.

    This can't be done with an iPad. The actual competing Apple product is the MacBook Air.

    The HP ElitePad is an Intel 1.8 Ghz Atom-based Laptop PC with Touch Screen, 2 GB RAM, 64 GB storage WITHOUT the keyboard, running Windows 8. It sells for $600 on Amazon.com. Once you add the case, docking station, and keyboard and mouse, it will end up costing at least $741 - as the article noted.

    THE KEY IS THAT THE HP ELITEPAD IS A CHEAP LAPTOP PC - ESSENTIALLY A NETBOOK.

    No wonder the HP ElitePad failed and was an "unmitigated disaster".

    Apple doesn't do this type of junk.

    The primary Apple competing product is the MacBook Air, costing $950.
  • Reply 29 of 186
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 32,991member
    Apple isn't perfect either. Remember the recent debacle in Los angles where students were bypassing g the security in their iPads? That initiative has been put on hold because of that. Hopefully, they will be able to fix that issue. 640,000 iPads were supposed to be bought for this. If they can't fix the security, that entire sale is in jeopardy.

    Fortunately, there have been no widespread reports around the country, or anywhere else, of widespread hardware failures, or other kinds of OS or software problems.
  • Reply 30 of 186
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by PhilBoogie View Post





    For a minute there I thought this was my junior high school teacher describing me.

    You mean I wasn't the only one? Now you tell me! :)

  • Reply 31 of 186

    What did they expect! Buy crap expect crap.

  • Reply 32 of 186
    $741 ea...

    Who on earth approved such a deal?!
  • Reply 33 of 186
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by RalphMouth View Post



    This school should have contacted Fraser Speirs, who is a world class expert on integrating iPads into education. It would have worked splendidly and he's based in Glasgow, less than 1hr by air from County Laois, Ireland so they could have had personal help. They would have had the iPads working, and would have been a showcase for the country.



    But instead they submitted to the sales pressure of HP, which is a huge commercial presence in Ireland because that's where HP offshores much of its work and its taxes.



    That the school's administrator doesn't take responsibility for this debacle is not surprising. This shirking of responsibility by authority happens a lot in that country (like the US) - from the politicians and bankers not taking responsibility for the massive banking and real estate fraud to the clergy not taking responsibility for what they allowed.

    Yep this guy is great! I've heard a MacWorld Podcast of his and he really understands the relationship of tech(iPad) and learning. Really a well spoken guy. I wonder if he has a TED talk?

     

    I've said it before, everything I've read from Autistic kids to Med. students, the iPad is improving learning and test scores.

     

    Best

  • Reply 34 of 186
    cnocbuicnocbui Posts: 3,613member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by sog35 View Post

     

    Perfect candidate for 64GB iPad2 $699

     

    When will these fools learn?  Saving a few bucks buying Android/MS stuff is just not worth it.


     

    A 64GB iPad 2 is not available in Ireland.  It only comes in 16GB for the equivalent of $526.  A 64GB iPad air costs $904.

     

    My daughter's traditional paper-based books cost me the equivalent of $447.  So even if the Principal in question had opted for the iPad 2 - it and the books would have cost just shy of $1000.

     

    But the real reason the Principal and iPad advocates are mentally compromised is .... wait for it .... there are no e-book versions of the text books that comprise the Irish secondary curriculum as far as I am aware of.  I am scratching my head over the original article as it seems far-fetched to me, given the lack of the most basic requirement: e-books.

     

    But yes, a 32GB iPad air would have been a no-brainer if you were to go down this route, but it and the HP device are both way too expensive given the poverty a large percentage of Irish Parents face where even buying the conventional text books is a huge financial strain.

  • Reply 35 of 186
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by jameskatt2 View Post



    Obviously, the school wanted a full-featured PC for their students so they can do word processing while multitasking with other apps to do research simultaneously.



    This can't be done with an iPad. The actual competing Apple product is the MacBook Air.



    The HP ElitePad is an Intel 1.8 Ghz Atom-based Laptop PC with Touch Screen, 2 GB RAM, 64 GB storage WITHOUT the keyboard, running Windows 8. It sells for $600 on Amazon.com. Once you add the case, docking station, and keyboard and mouse, it will end up costing at least $741 - as the article noted.



    THE KEY IS THAT THE HP ELITEPAD IS A CHEAP LAPTOP PC - ESSENTIALLY A NETBOOK.



    No wonder the HP ElitePad failed and was an "unmitigated disaster".



    Apple doesn't do this type of junk.



    The primary Apple competing product is the MacBook Air, costing $950.

    Another example of a corporation (HP) trying to sell crap for profit. Ugh!

     

    I know I sound silly, but I love Apple and I'm so glad my daughter is an Apple fan b/c of me! It's one of the things I got right and I'm so happy! I gave her my macbook to get her thru college and then paid half of a MBP for her to get thru Med school. I bought us both $600 original iPhones, a 4 and a 5. I would never, ever consider an HP with windows! Ugh!

     

    A few weeks after I got her the orig. iPhone we were having lunch and she gushed, "Dad, my whole life is in this phone!" Made me laugh! :)

  • Reply 36 of 186
    gooneryoda wrote: »
    "We're not blaming anyone" for the failures, Gleeson said.

    Yeah, you should. Blame HP and MS. In addition, blame the dumbasses who thought it would have been a good idea in the first place.

    Nonsense. The beauty of the Microsoft era of computing was that if technology didn't work, it was the users' fault: you should have known better, you should have been trained to know where features were hidden in Office Ribbon, why did you make these Windows registry changes, why did you install these programs in the wrong order therefore replacing new DLLs with old DLLs, didn't you know when you uninstall programs you're supposed to leave DLLs installed even though the Windows says no other programs are using these DLLs? Why didn't you defrag your hard drive? Why didn't you patch security holes in Internet Explorer? It's YOUR FAULT The Windows user experience sucks.

    As we all believed this.

    Until iOS. Then we realized: if your computing experience sucked it was because the people who made the technology didn't design it properly. I'm not saying iOS is perfect. I'm saying iOS changed what we expected from technology, from "it my fault" to "they should have done a better job."
  • Reply 37 of 186

    I say, this is grounds for a new Irish joke... jk :-P

  • Reply 38 of 186
    Why didn't they just get Surface RT tablets? It's ARM so you have none of the cruft of the x86 version and it comes with Office as part of the package.
  • Reply 39 of 186
    eriamjheriamjh Posts: 1,319member

    The $741 likely included warranty and support for 2-3 years.  So don't forget to add AppleCare.

     

    Clearly, the IT department did everything it could NOT to get iPads (I would assume because of anti-apple bias).  In the end, they got what they deserved and planned.

     

    iPads for schools are not cheap and don't get huge volume discounts from Apple, but have not made the news like this.  Kids deleting a file to surf the net, which is what happened in the only iPad-centric school roll-out where it did not go as planned, is not an unmitigated disaster (yeah, google it).

  • Reply 40 of 186
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 32,991member
    jameskatt2 wrote: »
    Obviously, the school wanted a full-featured PC for their students so they can do word processing while multitasking with other apps to do research simultaneously.

    This can't be done with an iPad. The actual competing Apple product is the MacBook Air.

    The HP ElitePad is an Intel 1.8 Ghz Atom-based Laptop PC with Touch Screen, 2 GB RAM, 64 GB storage WITHOUT the keyboard, running Windows 8. It sells for $600 on Amazon.com. Once you add the case, docking station, and keyboard and mouse, it will end up costing at least $741 - as the article noted.

    THE KEY IS THAT THE HP ELITEPAD IS A CHEAP LAPTOP PC - ESSENTIALLY A NETBOOK.

    No wonder the HP ElitePad failed and was an "unmitigated disaster".

    Apple doesn't do this type of junk.

    The primary Apple competing product is the MacBook Air, costing $950.

    I don't know if anyone here has ever done work in education, primarily K-12. I have, here in NYC. Beginning when my daughter began kindergarten, Sept 1996, I was a consultant to the NYCBOE, in technology. I received free lunches, sometimes, as payment. I took part in writing the five year technology plans. I also went around to schools with a couple of others on several committees to find out how schools were doing technologically. We would then make recommendations. I would, as part of my "job", recommend equipment, software and services, as well as, sometimes, training the technicians servicing the technology base, mostly computers, servers, routers, etc.

    I bring this up because I'd like to make some comments about what computing is in education. It's is NOT what computing is elsewhere. In K-8, it's completely different. In high school, it comes closer.

    After teaching children what they need to know in order to operate a computer by the amount they need to, the rest is educational software. This is written by speciality companies. It is NOT Office, iWork, etc. the software must correspond, and adhere to, the curriculum the school system is currently teaching. It isn't random software bought willy nilly from Newegg, or now, the App Store. Representatives from those companies come in and make presentations. After software is purchased, they often come in and show how to use it.

    For a computer, when purchased, there is almost always restrictions on its use. In the case of NYC, there is software that is installed from the BOE that requires a password, and overrides, by qualified personnel, not usually a teacher, that is required to be entered before use. This software prevents most of the curious, and mischievous, actions students always seem to attempt. It also limits browsing to so called "safe sites", or white listed sites for really young children. It isn't prefect, of course, but it's an attempt to do the right thing.

    There is software purchased, and installed on each computer from purchase. This software raises the price of that computer above list pricing, which is why prices always seem to be so high. Professional educational software is not cheap. You won't find it for $5 a seat. And interestingly enough, though I can't say it's still true since I stopped doing this here, all Apple products, as well as every other product, can only be bought through approved vendors. You can't just go to a store and buy something. Apple products, here in NYC, ironically have only been available for purchase through the BOE's one approved computer hardware vendor—DELL! As I say, I don't know if this is still true, since I've been out of this since my daughter graduated 4 years ago. But I would be surprised if it wasn't.

    I can also say, truthfully, that the Dell computer labs were down about 40% of the time, and the Mac labs, less than 10%. One reason is that the computer teachers, were much more easily able to fix a glitch with the Mac labs than with the Dell labs. With the Dell labs! a call had to be made to send a tech in to fix the problem, which could take up to a week.

    The macs also tended to fail less often, though for the early iMacs, the company hired to make the steel security straps that fit over the computer, locking them to the desks! caused failures, as they covered the vent at the top of the machine. When I first saw those I went ballistic! It took two whole years to get the design changed. Such is the life in a big bureaucracy.
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