Irish school's attempt to replace books with HP tablets results in 'unmitigated disaster'

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  • Reply 41 of 186

    I agree, the competing product is the MBA.

     

    Buy 5,000 MBAs for your school today, though, and they'll come with iWork'13, which will likely break any Keynote and Numbers teaching material that you've developed over the past few years.  Don't worry though, Apple promises that you will have functional software in 6 months.  You didn't plan to teach the kids anything till summer anyway, did ya?

  • Reply 42 of 186
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by christopher126 View Post

     

    Correct!

     

    The largest PC manufacturer in the world and what do they make? 


     

    I think that's Lenovo, now actually. But I agree HP is even more irrelevant than Dell when it comes to creating interesting consumer products. Remember when they destroyed Palm, webOS, and consumer good will in a perfect firestorm of mismanagement and corporate shortsightedness? Almost makes me weep.

  • Reply 42 of 186
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 32,991member
    eriamjh wrote: »
    The $741 likely included warranty and support for 2-3 years.  So don't forget to add AppleCare.

    Clearly, the IT department did everything it could NOT to get iPads (I would assume because of anti-apple bias).  In the end, they got what they deserved and planned.

    iPads for schools are not cheap and don't get huge volume discounts from Apple, but have not made the news like this.  Kids deleting a file to surf the net, which is what happened in the only iPad-centric school roll-out where it did not go as planned, is not an unmitigated disaster (yeah, google it).

    I don't know how they handled warranty service there, or purchasing, but here, in NYC, we didn't use AppleCare. Service was the responsibility of the vendor. This is also a part of the contract, but it was not added to the cost of the individual machine. It was a separate portion of the contract, and was costed by the number of seats, whether Windows or Mac.
  • Reply 44 of 186
    drblankdrblank Posts: 3,383member

    "refusing to power on, going to sleep unexpectedly, and experiencing hardware failures involving the devices' logic boards"   sounds like a h/w and potentially a s/w issue.  And they aren't blaming anyone?  Really?   If had bought a bunch of tablets or computers and they won't turn on, go to sleep unexpectedly and have logic boards fail, I can think of at least one or two companies to blame.

     

    Now, if the students aren't plugging the devices in to charge the battery, i can understand why they might not power on or go do sleep due to lack of enough battery power, but logic boards failing?

     

    And these are HP?  I would expect this happening on the lower end cheaper products on the market, but I always thought HP was to have at least decent products from a standpoint of at least turning on and working reliably.

     

    Oh well.

  • Reply 45 of 186
    drblankdrblank Posts: 3,383member
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by melgross View Post



    Apple isn't perfect either. Remember the recent debacle in Los angles where students were bypassing g the security in their iPads? That initiative has been put on hold because of that. Hopefully, they will be able to fix that issue. 640,000 iPads were supposed to be bought for this. If they can't fix the security, that entire sale is in jeopardy.



    Fortunately, there have been no widespread reports around the country, or anywhere else, of widespread hardware failures, or other kinds of OS or software problems.

    I'm wondering if the last iOS update fixed that problem, if it didn't, I would assume that Apple has that as a high priority of a fix.

  • Reply 46 of 186
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 32,991member
    I agree, the competing product is the MBA.

    Buy 5,000 MBAs for your school today, though, and they'll come with iWork'13, which will likely break any Keynote and Numbers teaching material that you've developed over the past few years.  Don't worry though, Apple promises that you will have functional software in 6 months.  You didn't plan to teach the kids anything till summer anyway, did ya?

    Actually, last quarter, about half the computers bought in education, K-12, were iPads. The rest were about evenly apportioned between MacBooks and Dell laptops, with the rest being mostly iMacs, and Windows towers.
  • Reply 47 of 186
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by pojekboy View Post

     

     

    I think that's Lenovo, now actually. But I agree HP is even more irrelevant than Dell when it comes to creating interesting consumer products. Remember when they destroyed Palm, webOS, and consumer good will in a perfect firestorm of mismanagement and corporate shortsightedness? Almost makes me weep.


    Yep, you're right....but it sounded better using HP! :)

     

    I do remember...HP paid a billion dollars for WebOS and it could've been their entree into mobile...they really blew it.

     

    HP is following IBM's lead and going into "business services" instead of hardware. In other words, "talking crap" is a lot easier to sell than having to create crap and then sell it! 

     

    Like Iacocco said, "Pretty soon, we'll all be selling insurance to each other!"

  • Reply 48 of 186
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 32,991member
    drblank wrote: »
    I'm wondering if the last iOS update fixed that problem, if it didn't, I would assume that Apple has that as a high priority of a fix.

    I don't know what it is. Is it a problem with Apple software, or possibly, third party MDM services, if they are using that.
  • Reply 49 of 186

    Trouble is, many of these procurements start out with a naive set of requirements. 'Must run MS Word' is a likely candidate, both iOS and Android would have ranked lower in that set of circumstances  :-(

     

    Shame for the kids though, 'twas a good idea in principle.

  • Reply 50 of 186
    gtrgtr Posts: 3,231member
    Have you heard the joke about the Irishman (called Paddy) who bought ElitePads instead iPads?
  • Reply 51 of 186
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 32,991member
    Yep, you're right....but it sounded better using HP! :)

    I do remember...HP paid a billion dollars for WebOS and it could've been their entree into mobile...they really blew it.

    HP is following IBM's lead and going into "business services" instead of hardware. In other words, "talking crap" is a lot easier to sell than having to create crap and then sell it! 

    Like Iacocco said, "Pretty soon, we'll all be selling insurance to each other!"

    I believe that hp is still the biggest.

    But I am tired of people blaming them for the failure of WebOS. That was dead before they bought it. They had no chance to revive it. No one could have. That like all the attempts to revive the Amiga! or the Atari ST, or other dead systems. Once the public rejects it, it's dead. There's just a very small number of people who make a fuss over it.
  • Reply 52 of 186
    Perhaps instead of jumping on brand bashing it's the actual delivery system that creates a barrier between people's enjoy ent of books. People love the smell and touch of paper, it becomes much more of a sense pleasure.

    iPad air, mini, galaxy tab, kindle whatever will never replace books for some people
  • Reply 53 of 186
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by melgross View Post





    I believe that hp is still the biggest.



    But I am tired of people blaming them for the failure of WebOS. That was dead before they bought it. They had no chance to revive it. No one could have. That like all the attempts to revive the Amiga! or the Atari ST, or other dead systems. Once the public rejects it, it's dead. There's just a very small number of people who make a fuss over it.

    I take your point, Mel...but everything I read at the time was that WebOs had the potential to be a contender in the mobile space. Perhaps it would have taken a lot of hard work on the part HP and that they were incapable of doing it or maybe nothing could compete with iOS. But it still was rather stupid of HP to buy it in the first place. No? :)

     

    And rather stupid for a tech company not to compete in the fastest growing segment...Mobile. 

     

    Best

  • Reply 54 of 186
    pojekboy wrote: »
    Why didn't they just get Surface RT tablets? It's ARM so you have none of the cruft of the x86 version and it comes with Office as part of the package.

    If the schools still show educational videos on Betamax, then perhaps they won't mind using Windows RT.
  • Reply 55 of 186
    sipsip Posts: 210member

    From Mountrath Community School to Apple's Irish HQ at Hollyhill Industrial Estate, Cork, Ireland is 165km or a two hour journey by car, at a total fuel cost of €25.

     

    I wonder if the school governors and IT staff bothered to visit Apple -- I've heard that in the UK, Microsoft likes to offer certain incentives for using MS products (AFAIK, the UK government and the BBC have such incentive agreements with MS).

  • Reply 56 of 186
    rob53rob53 Posts: 2,556member
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by cnocbui View Post

     

     

    A 64GB iPad 2 is not available in Ireland.  It only comes in 16GB for the equivalent of $526.  A 64GB iPad air costs $904.

     

    My daughter's traditional paper-based books cost me the equivalent of $447.  So even if the Principal in question had opted for the iPad 2 - it and the books would have cost just shy of $1000.

     

    But the real reason the Principal and iPad advocates are mentally compromised is .... wait for it .... there are no e-book versions of the text books that comprise the Irish secondary curriculum as far as I am aware of.  I am scratching my head over the original article as it seems far-fetched to me, given the lack of the most basic requirement: e-books.

     

    But yes, a 32GB iPad air would have been a no-brainer if you were to go down this route, but it and the HP device are both way too expensive given the poverty a large percentage of Irish Parents face where even buying the conventional text books is a huge financial strain.


    This is the comment I was waiting for from someone in Ireland who has to deal with this type of mess. No textbook e-books available so why get tablets/laptops to replace them. These don't magically appear, especially for Windows systems.

  • Reply 57 of 186
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by christopher126 View Post

     

    Correct!

     

    The largest PC manufacturer in the world and what do they make? Crappy tablets! The largest software company in the world and what do they make? Crappy software!

     

    And they wonder why they had problems! Ugh! :)


    the 'conventional wisdom' is too always buy the biggest 'market' leader in a 'open' market.  They will have the resources to fix the problems, and then you can always move to the 2nd or 3rd place (Dell? Lenovo?) with a 'HP is in... but we want an alternative source,' to get a great deal and boot HP out.   It's a game we all loved to play back in the day.

     

    But... here the issue is Win8, which isn't crappy SW per se..., just a crappy experience on a tablet.  The crappy SW part is marriage of new bios, drivers, internal chips, to the OS low level code.   This takes a year or 2 (or 3... why do you think Corps are just now migrating to Win7 en masse?... because they had to test everything out).

     

    But, the issue here was a silly set of requirements ('an informed decision'  HA!  Someone in the school either had a excel spreadsheet with embedded ActiveX and VBA in it and it wouldn't port to Numbers.... or a testing SW program written in Word/VBA) Macros... therefore MS Word for Windows was a requirement), vs a long term goal to move to a 'e-learning platform' independent of the OS, and built in Apps.

     

    The Allie's appeasement of Nazi Germany was 'an informed decision' ;-).   We all saw how well that worked out...
  • Reply 58 of 186
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 32,991member
    I take your point, Mel...but everything I read at the time was that WebOs had the potential to be a contender in the mobile space. Perhaps it would have taken a lot of hard work on the part HP and that they were incapable of doing it or maybe nothing could compete with iOS. But it still was rather stupid of HP to buy it in the first place. No? :)

    And rather stupid for a tech company not to compete in the fastest growing segment...Mobile. 

    Best

    WebOS never had a chance. While the tech writers just loved it, they love everything. It's their job to love everything . But WebOS was poorly designed, and poorly advertised.

    Seriously, how many people walking into a phone store, and picking up a Pre, would know that in order to do some important, basic functions, you needed to swipe BELOW the screen, on the plastic case? Not many. There were a number of gotchas, in the system, like that one. In order to use WebOS, you needed to know how to use it before you used it. In other words, you needed the manual.

    I had an AT&T account at the time, and went into the AT&T store here, in my neighborhood fairly often. I hung out for a bit of time, here and there, surreptitiously watching people examine phones. What I found was interesting. Most people who bought iPhones went in and directly said that they wanted an iPhone, and bought one. Most others looked first at the iPhones, and maybe bought one, and then at the Palm Pre for just a few moments before moving on to the Android phones. People would pick it up, stare at it, poke once or twice at the screen, and then put it down. I've seen the same behaviors with Win Phone.

    Hp bought what they thought was a pretty much finished OS. They had no real way of knowing what was going on at Palm.

    It was like Google buying Motorola because they were told by them that their 17,000 patents were strong, and could be used against Apple and Microsoft. That was wrong too, and it cost Google $12.5 billion for a failing company that was valued at $6.5 billion the same day they made the purchase. At some point, even though they don't want to do it, most of that price will need to be written off.

    A major problem when hp bought Palm was that WebOS turned out to be far from finished. It was working, but there were major areas that were supposed to have been totally rewritten. There were lots of very basic problems with the OS, which is why apps didn't work too well with the hardware, because so much was abstracted because of the programming g model they used, that they were at a major disadvantage. That entire area was supposed to be thrown out and replaced.

    But when hp got it, it had barely started. And then major people had left. There was no one left who really understood the OS. Hp never had a chance! They did try though. The tablet wasn't bad at all, just too expensive and heavy.
  • Reply 59 of 186
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by melgross View Post





    WebOS never had a chance. While the tech writers just loved it, they love everything. It's their job to love everything . But WebOS was poorly designed, and poorly advertised.



    Seriously, how many people walking into a phone store, and picking up a Pre, would know that in order to do some important, basic functions, you needed to swipe BELOW the screen, on the plastic case? Not many. There were a number of gotchas, in the system, like that one. In order to use WebOS, you needed to know how to use it before you used it. In other words, you needed the manual.



    I had an AT&T account at the time, and went into the AT&T store here, in my neighborhood fairly often. I hung out for a bit of time, here and there, surreptitiously watching people examine phones. What I found was interesting. Most people who bought iPhones went in and directly said that they wanted an iPhone, and bought one. Most others looked first at the iPhones, and maybe bought one, and then at the Palm Pre for just a few moments before moving on to the Android phones. People would pick it up, stare at it, poke once or twice at the screen, and then put it down. I've seen the same behaviors with Win Phone.



    Hp bought what they thought was a pretty much finished OS. They had no real way of knowing what was going on at Palm.



    It was like Google buying Motorola because they were told by them that their 17,000 patents were strong, and could be used against Apple and Microsoft. That was wrong too, and it cost Google $12.5 billion for a failing company that was valued at $6.5 billion the same day they made the purchase. At some point, even though they don't want to do it, most of that price will need to be written off.



    A major problem when hp bought Palm was that WebOS turned out to be far from finished. It was working, but there were major areas that were supposed to have been totally rewritten. There were lots of very basic problems with the OS, which is why apps didn't work too well with the hardware, because so much was abstracted because of the programming g model they used, that they were at a major disadvantage. That entire area was supposed to be thrown out and replaced.



    But when hp got it, it had barely started. And then major people had left. There was no one left who really understood the OS. Hp never had a chance! They did try though. The tablet wasn't bad at all, just too expensive and heavy.

    Good points, Mel. I do remember reading about the "brain drain" at Palm. And I remember WebOS was far from finished. 

     

    OK, you've changed my mind. HP never had a chance! :)

  • Reply 60 of 186
    knowitallknowitall Posts: 1,648member
    ...If all they need to do is read an ebook then nearly any tablet will suffice, and there are many cheaper including some from Apple. ...

    No., an iPad can do almost all a laptop can, only sometimes better.
    You can browse the web better than on a computer, you can create and edit text documents, spreadsheets and presentations (for example using the free apps Apple includes with each device), you can create and edit movies and sound projects (also using the free apps Apple includes) and can continue working on them on another computer or in the cloud.
    You also have a limitless choice of other productivity apps, for example creative apps and endless games, not to mention email and all kinds of connectivity apps, etc. etc. etc.
    If you ignore that, something is seriously wrong with you or you have an hidden agenda.
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