I am appalled by the ignorance and the snottiness in this thread... And this is my first post here... I am already wondering why I even joined this forum...
I am appalled by the ignorance and the snottiness in this thread... And this is my first post here... I am already wondering why I even joined this forum...
First, let me say welcome, as bittersweet as it may be in this case.
Second, let me assure you that you are hardly the only appalled. Really, I would suggest avoiding the political threads. On any forum, no matter the subject (tech, comics, games, even fashion) you will always find some people who are just wired to think like Dick Cheney. There's no way away around it.
Third, I hope this thread won't run you off completely. This is generally a pretty great place, I've learned a ton here, and, at least the in the tech threads the only "snottiness" is usually reserved for drive by trolls.
Man, I am from Czechoslovakia, we were under Soviet occupation since 1968 to 1989. I understand communism in practice better than any American hippie wannabe progressive democratic socialist.
Change "hippie wannabe progressive democratic socialist" to 'self-absorbed hipster'.
It must be the superior American education system that's breeding the pseudo-intellectuals posting here. Goes along with the 'greatest country in the world' meme.
Comparing Reagan to Nelson Mandela when you weren't even alive then? Really?
Here's a news flash: the majority of the world alive back then considered the Reagans and Thatcher to be a joke.
We remember when Nancy Reagan switched to prancing around in a DEA jacket raiding crack houses, because the media made fun of her feeding homeless people while wearing Halston couture in soup-kitchen photo-ops broadcast on the nightly news.
We also remember Ronald and Nancy calling drug users 'murderers' while right-wing death squads trained by his proxies in the US military were murdering nuns in Central America.
"Just say no!" "Take a bite out of crime" - some of the greatest hypocrisy ever spouted in the name of democracy.
Remember Iran-Contra, anyone? Thought not. There's no high moral ground there. Stop pretending there was.
Guess who was cutting his teeth in the terror business against the Soviet Union in Afghanistan during the Reagan administration? Osama bin Laden. Guess who funded his training? The CIA!
Change "hippie wannabe progressive democratic socialist" to 'self-absorbed hipster'.
It must be the superior American education system that's breeding the pseudo-intellectuals posting here. Goes along with the 'greatest country in the world' meme.
Comparing Reagan to Nelson Mandela when you weren't even alive then? Really?
Here's a news flash: the majority of the world alive back then considered the Reagans and Thatcher to be a joke.
We remember when Nancy Reagan switched to prancing around in a DEA jacket raiding crack houses, because the media made fun of her feeding homeless people while wearing Halston couture in soup-kitchen photo-ops broadcast on the nightly news.
We also remember Ronald and Nancy calling drug users 'murderers' while right-wing death squads trained by his proxies in the US military were murdering nuns in Central America.
"Just say no!" "Take a bite out of crime" - some of the greatest hypocrisy ever spouted in the name of democracy.
Remember Iran-Contra, anyone? Thought not. There's no high moral ground there. Stop pretending there was.
Guess who was cutting his teeth in the terror business against the Soviet Union in Afghanistan during the Reagan administration? Osama bin Laden. Guess who funded his training? The CIA!
Some of y'all need to get out of the cube farm / mom's basement / country more often.
Feed trolls, get troll poo - the primary ingredient of a 'spam sandwich' . . .
I'd be among the first to call out Reagan on the "war on drugs" police and military buildup that flourished under his administration, and he was certainly no promoter of free-market capitalism even though he somehow got that reputation.
The fact is, the same lousy policies that existed under Reagan continued under Bush and Clinton, then Bush and Obama. Washington is a cesspool in which all sensibility and adherence to the Constitution and Bill of Rights has long since sunk.
My biggest laughs come from partisans who still believe there is a vast difference between Republicans and Democrats. They are largely the same.
"Should not be used at all" because you hold an extreme, minority view towards Mandela that is not shared by many, and who most people in real life would be repulsed to hear. Right. You've been hellbent in this thread as defining Mandela as nothing more than a murderer and a communist, that should speak volumes about how worthwhile your opinion is, and the fact that you have the gall like to dictate to Apple what they "should" do in this situation is hilarious. You clearly don't hold a shred of context, historical perspective, or objectivity in your unbalanced, petty, and childish views that serve only to pick and choose what you want to see in order to demonize someone great.
So, if you're saying "most people" are unaware or blissfully ignorant of his past, I would agree with that.
If you're (not so subtly) calling me a racist, I wholeheartedly reject that nonsense. The favoritism or oppression of anyone based on their skin color is disgusting and demeaning. People are individuals, not colors.
First, let me say welcome, as bittersweet as it may be in this case.
Second, let me assure you that you are hardly the only appalled. Really, I would suggest avoiding the political threads. On any forum, no matter the subject (tech, comics, games, even fashion) you will always find some people who are just wired to think like Dick Cheney. There's no way away around it.
Third, I hope this thread won't run you off completely. This is generally a pretty great place, I've learned a ton here, and, at least the in the tech threads the only "snottiness" is usually reserved for drive by trolls.
EDIT: Spelling.
First, Thank you for the welcome mate...
Second, I am sure I will find many like minded people here... There are always a few people on a tangent with you... But, as this is an open forum that is expected... You will always find people who are judgmental and weird in their thinking...
Third, No it won't run me off... I have been a member of many forums... I have been an avid reader here... But, I was a member of macrumors hence, I never became a member here... Recently that place has been infested by a great number of trolls.... And many a heated argument got me suspensions and finally I got pissed at a moderator and gave him a piece of my mind and I got banned... Hence I am here... I have been wanting to be a member here since a while... But, I am the loyal types so didm't wanna become a member... now there's no such hangups with macrumors... heheh...
I'd be among the first to call out Reagan on the "war on drugs" police and military buildup that flourished under his administration, and he was certainly no promoter of free-market capitalism even though he somehow got that reputation.
The fact is, the same lousy policies that existed under Reagan continued under Bush and Clinton, then Bush and Obama. Washington is a cesspool in which all sensibility and adherence to the Constitution and Bill of Rights has long since sunk.
My biggest laughs come from partisans who still believe there is a vast difference between Republicans and Democrats. They are largely the same.
Well I'm shocked! I agree with everything in your response to my post. Especially regarding the lack of difference between the US right and left wing. Its all a matter of degrees. Gentlemen can agree to disagree about the rest, I suppose.
That being said, Mandela was a hero to most of the world. Those who denigrate his legacy and those who attempt to profit from 'marketing' his image are equally deserving of derision. He was not a saint and he was not perfect. South Africa has some of the highest per-capita incidences of AIDS and sexual assault in the world. This has risen to current levels during the ANC's watch. I'm not seeing particularly effective or compassionate government there. Welcome to the human condition.
Still, I'd be much more impressed if Apple decided to donate one day's gross income to some valid cause in South Africa that Mandela supported, without writing it off as a tax deduction or notifying the world in a press release.
Seems like a lot of sensitive people. Who, if you question the character of someone they admire, will act offended that you have a different opinion. My 2 cents, not everyone agrees with the methods he used to fight back. No one here denied he and his whole country suffered. Not everyone is saying he was a murderer. They're saying that when he authorized the bombing of innocent civilians at malls and movie theatres, that keeps him from being in the same category as Martin Luther king jr or mother Teresa. Was he justifies to act the way he did? Possibly. But not everyone has to share the belief that he's a good example.
Well I'm shocked! I agree with everything in your response to my post. Especially regarding the lack of difference between the US right and left wing. Its all a matter of degrees. Gentlemen can agree to disagree about the rest, I suppose.
That being said, Mandela was a hero to most of the world. Those who denigrate his legacy and those who attempt to profit from 'marketing' his image are equally deserving of derision. He was not a saint and he was not perfect. South Africa has some of the highest per-capita incidences of AIDS and sexual assault in the world. This has risen to current levels during the ANC's watch. I'm not seeing particularly effective or compassionate government there. Welcome to the human condition.
I mostly agree with what you've said also.
Quote:
Still, I'd be much more impressed if Apple decided to donate one day's gross income to some valid cause in South Africa that Mandela supported, without writing it off as a tax deduction or notifying the world in a press release.
I guess donations are nice, but they cannot but treat root problems. I've never seen a problem completely solved (other than the "problem" of not having any money!) by throwing money at it. Just ask Bill Gates how difficult it has been for him and his foundation trying to find ways to spend money effectively. You feel good for a day, then the problems remain.
Second, I am sure I will find many like minded people here... There are always a few people on a tangent with you... But, as this is an open forum that is expected... You will always find people who are judgmental and weird in their thinking...
Third, No it won't run me off... I have been a member of many forums... I have been an avid reader here... But, I was a member of macrumors hence, I never became a member here... Recently that place has been infested by a great number of trolls.... And many a heated argument got me suspensions and finally I got pissed at a moderator and gave him a piece of my mind and I got banned... Hence I am here... I have been wanting to be a member here since a while... But, I am the loyal types so didm't wanna become a member... now there's no such hangups with macrumors... heheh...
Heh. What happened to you at MacRumours has, unfortunately, happened to me -- at more than one internet forum. I definitely know how you feel.
Heh. What happened to you at MacRumours has, unfortunately, happened to me -- at more than one internet forum. I definitely know how you feel.
AI Forums: the island of misfit toys?
I have to say that the discourse has improved on AI dramatically since I joined in 2008. It used to be that any criticizer of Apple in any way, shape or form was hounded out of the forums.
That doesn't seem to be the case anymore. Then again, Apple's also come a long way since 2008. It's great to be king, or at least have your founder's business model finally affirmed...
I have to say that the discourse has improved on AI dramatically since I joined in 2008. It used to be that any criticizer of Apple in any way, shape or form was hounded out of the forums.
That doesn't seem to be the case anymore. Then again, Apple's also come a long way since 2008. It's great to be king, or at least have your founder's business model finally affirmed...
Well, maybe you're right about the misfit toys. Although, both of the places from which I was banned were comic book forums and -- understand that I say this a comic book nerd myself -- there are few groups of people in the world who are more rabid, often concerning the most minute issue or disagreement, than comic book fans. I could lead you to 20+ page threads that occurred when they gave Wonder Woman pants, for instance. Though I will admit as a Wondy fan myself that we Wondy fans and Legion of Super-Heroes fans are quite possibly the worst of the bunch. Heh.
I do think that the discourse here is USUALLY civil and respectful. As I said to j4zb4 above, most of the harsh replies seem to be to drive by trolling by people who just joined to snipe about how "disgraceful" Apple is, and how Samsung is so much better. Some day someone will have to direct me to a psychology paper on what drives someone to spend all day doing nothing but being negative, and creating identity after identity to do it. I just honestly don't get it.
Nancy Reagan switched to prancing around in a DEA jacket raiding crack houses, because the media made fun of her feeding homeless people while wearing Halston couture
Now that people on this thread have pointed out the violence he was involved in, I don't think it's appropriate for Apple to have him on their webpage.
Comments
Apple brought out the class, while the forums brought out the ass.
I am appalled by the ignorance and the snottiness in this thread... And this is my first post here... I am already wondering why I even joined this forum...
I am appalled by the ignorance and the snottiness in this thread... And this is my first post here... I am already wondering why I even joined this forum...
First, let me say welcome, as bittersweet as it may be in this case.
Second, let me assure you that you are hardly the only appalled. Really, I would suggest avoiding the political threads. On any forum, no matter the subject (tech, comics, games, even fashion) you will always find some people who are just wired to think like Dick Cheney. There's no way away around it.
Third, I hope this thread won't run you off completely. This is generally a pretty great place, I've learned a ton here, and, at least the in the tech threads the only "snottiness" is usually reserved for drive by trolls.
EDIT: Spelling.
Let me ask! Have you ever been oppressed because of the color of your skin?
Define "oppressed". Depending on your answer, it could be "maybe".
If you actually understood communism
Man, I am from Czechoslovakia, we were under Soviet occupation since 1968 to 1989. I understand communism in practice better than any American hippie wannabe progressive democratic socialist.
Change "hippie wannabe progressive democratic socialist" to 'self-absorbed hipster'.
It must be the superior American education system that's breeding the pseudo-intellectuals posting here. Goes along with the 'greatest country in the world' meme.
Comparing Reagan to Nelson Mandela when you weren't even alive then? Really?
Here's a news flash: the majority of the world alive back then considered the Reagans and Thatcher to be a joke.
We remember when Nancy Reagan switched to prancing around in a DEA jacket raiding crack houses, because the media made fun of her feeding homeless people while wearing Halston couture in soup-kitchen photo-ops broadcast on the nightly news.
We also remember Ronald and Nancy calling drug users 'murderers' while right-wing death squads trained by his proxies in the US military were murdering nuns in Central America.
"Just say no!" "Take a bite out of crime" - some of the greatest hypocrisy ever spouted in the name of democracy.
Remember Iran-Contra, anyone? Thought not. There's no high moral ground there. Stop pretending there was.
Guess who was cutting his teeth in the terror business against the Soviet Union in Afghanistan during the Reagan administration? Osama bin Laden. Guess who funded his training? The CIA!
Change "hippie wannabe progressive democratic socialist" to 'self-absorbed hipster'.
It must be the superior American education system that's breeding the pseudo-intellectuals posting here. Goes along with the 'greatest country in the world' meme.
Comparing Reagan to Nelson Mandela when you weren't even alive then? Really?
Here's a news flash: the majority of the world alive back then considered the Reagans and Thatcher to be a joke.
We remember when Nancy Reagan switched to prancing around in a DEA jacket raiding crack houses, because the media made fun of her feeding homeless people while wearing Halston couture in soup-kitchen photo-ops broadcast on the nightly news.
We also remember Ronald and Nancy calling drug users 'murderers' while right-wing death squads trained by his proxies in the US military were murdering nuns in Central America.
"Just say no!" "Take a bite out of crime" - some of the greatest hypocrisy ever spouted in the name of democracy.
Remember Iran-Contra, anyone? Thought not. There's no high moral ground there. Stop pretending there was.
Guess who was cutting his teeth in the terror business against the Soviet Union in Afghanistan during the Reagan administration? Osama bin Laden. Guess who funded his training? The CIA!
Some of y'all need to get out of the cube farm / mom's basement / country more often.
Feed trolls, get troll poo - the primary ingredient of a 'spam sandwich' . . .
I'd be among the first to call out Reagan on the "war on drugs" police and military buildup that flourished under his administration, and he was certainly no promoter of free-market capitalism even though he somehow got that reputation.
The fact is, the same lousy policies that existed under Reagan continued under Bush and Clinton, then Bush and Obama. Washington is a cesspool in which all sensibility and adherence to the Constitution and Bill of Rights has long since sunk.
My biggest laughs come from partisans who still believe there is a vast difference between Republicans and Democrats. They are largely the same.
"Should not be used at all" because you hold an extreme, minority view towards Mandela that is not shared by many, and who most people in real life would be repulsed to hear. Right. You've been hellbent in this thread as defining Mandela as nothing more than a murderer and a communist, that should speak volumes about how worthwhile your opinion is, and the fact that you have the gall like to dictate to Apple what they "should" do in this situation is hilarious. You clearly don't hold a shred of context, historical perspective, or objectivity in your unbalanced, petty, and childish views that serve only to pick and choose what you want to see in order to demonize someone great.
So, if you're saying "most people" are unaware or blissfully ignorant of his past, I would agree with that.
If you're (not so subtly) calling me a racist, I wholeheartedly reject that nonsense. The favoritism or oppression of anyone based on their skin color is disgusting and demeaning. People are individuals, not colors.
First, let me say welcome, as bittersweet as it may be in this case.
Second, let me assure you that you are hardly the only appalled. Really, I would suggest avoiding the political threads. On any forum, no matter the subject (tech, comics, games, even fashion) you will always find some people who are just wired to think like Dick Cheney. There's no way away around it.
Third, I hope this thread won't run you off completely. This is generally a pretty great place, I've learned a ton here, and, at least the in the tech threads the only "snottiness" is usually reserved for drive by trolls.
EDIT: Spelling.
First, Thank you for the welcome mate...
Second, I am sure I will find many like minded people here... There are always a few people on a tangent with you... But, as this is an open forum that is expected... You will always find people who are judgmental and weird in their thinking...
Third, No it won't run me off... I have been a member of many forums... I have been an avid reader here... But, I was a member of macrumors hence, I never became a member here... Recently that place has been infested by a great number of trolls.... And many a heated argument got me suspensions and finally I got pissed at a moderator and gave him a piece of my mind and I got banned...
Hence I am here... I have been wanting to be a member here since a while... But, I am the loyal types so didm't wanna become a member... now there's no such hangups with macrumors... heheh...
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich
I'd be among the first to call out Reagan on the "war on drugs" police and military buildup that flourished under his administration, and he was certainly no promoter of free-market capitalism even though he somehow got that reputation.
The fact is, the same lousy policies that existed under Reagan continued under Bush and Clinton, then Bush and Obama. Washington is a cesspool in which all sensibility and adherence to the Constitution and Bill of Rights has long since sunk.
My biggest laughs come from partisans who still believe there is a vast difference between Republicans and Democrats. They are largely the same.
Well I'm shocked! I agree with everything in your response to my post. Especially regarding the lack of difference between the US right and left wing. Its all a matter of degrees. Gentlemen can agree to disagree about the rest, I suppose.
That being said, Mandela was a hero to most of the world. Those who denigrate his legacy and those who attempt to profit from 'marketing' his image are equally deserving of derision. He was not a saint and he was not perfect. South Africa has some of the highest per-capita incidences of AIDS and sexual assault in the world. This has risen to current levels during the ANC's watch. I'm not seeing particularly effective or compassionate government there. Welcome to the human condition.
Still, I'd be much more impressed if Apple decided to donate one day's gross income to some valid cause in South Africa that Mandela supported, without writing it off as a tax deduction or notifying the world in a press release.
Well I'm shocked! I agree with everything in your response to my post. Especially regarding the lack of difference between the US right and left wing. Its all a matter of degrees. Gentlemen can agree to disagree about the rest, I suppose.
That being said, Mandela was a hero to most of the world. Those who denigrate his legacy and those who attempt to profit from 'marketing' his image are equally deserving of derision. He was not a saint and he was not perfect. South Africa has some of the highest per-capita incidences of AIDS and sexual assault in the world. This has risen to current levels during the ANC's watch. I'm not seeing particularly effective or compassionate government there. Welcome to the human condition.
I mostly agree with what you've said also.
I guess donations are nice, but they cannot but treat root problems. I've never seen a problem completely solved (other than the "problem" of not having any money!) by throwing money at it. Just ask Bill Gates how difficult it has been for him and his foundation trying to find ways to spend money effectively. You feel good for a day, then the problems remain.
First, Thank you for the welcome mate...
Second, I am sure I will find many like minded people here... There are always a few people on a tangent with you... But, as this is an open forum that is expected... You will always find people who are judgmental and weird in their thinking...
Third, No it won't run me off... I have been a member of many forums... I have been an avid reader here... But, I was a member of macrumors hence, I never became a member here... Recently that place has been infested by a great number of trolls.... And many a heated argument got me suspensions and finally I got pissed at a moderator and gave him a piece of my mind and I got banned...
Hence I am here... I have been wanting to be a member here since a while... But, I am the loyal types so didm't wanna become a member... now there's no such hangups with macrumors... heheh...
Heh. What happened to you at MacRumours has, unfortunately, happened to me -- at more than one internet forum. I definitely know how you feel.
…view towards Mandela that is not shared by many…
The majority is always right, after all.
Originally Posted by AaronJ
Heh. What happened to you at MacRumours has, unfortunately, happened to me -- at more than one internet forum. I definitely know how you feel.
AI Forums: the island of misfit toys?
I have to say that the discourse has improved on AI dramatically since I joined in 2008. It used to be that any criticizer of Apple in any way, shape or form was hounded out of the forums.
That doesn't seem to be the case anymore. Then again, Apple's also come a long way since 2008. It's great to be king, or at least have your founder's business model finally affirmed...
AI Forums: the island of misfit toys?
I have to say that the discourse has improved on AI dramatically since I joined in 2008. It used to be that any criticizer of Apple in any way, shape or form was hounded out of the forums.
That doesn't seem to be the case anymore. Then again, Apple's also come a long way since 2008. It's great to be king, or at least have your founder's business model finally affirmed...
Well, maybe you're right about the misfit toys.
Although, both of the places from which I was banned were comic book forums and -- understand that I say this a comic book nerd myself -- there are few groups of people in the world who are more rabid, often concerning the most minute issue or disagreement, than comic book fans. I could lead you to 20+ page threads that occurred when they gave Wonder Woman pants, for instance. 
Though I will admit as a Wondy fan myself that we Wondy fans and Legion of Super-Heroes fans are quite possibly the worst of the bunch. Heh.
I do think that the discourse here is USUALLY civil and respectful. As I said to j4zb4 above, most of the harsh replies seem to be to drive by trolling by people who just joined to snipe about how "disgraceful" Apple is, and how Samsung is so much better. Some day someone will have to direct me to a psychology paper on what drives someone to spend all day doing nothing but being negative, and creating identity after identity to do it. I just honestly don't get it.
"They were homeless, not tasteless"
and a brownnose.....it's depth perception.....
Now that people on this thread have pointed out the violence he was involved in, I don't think it's appropriate for Apple to have him on their webpage.
Not surprising, the far-right Apple fans are absent from the conversation.
Winnie Mandela was not Nelson Mandela.