They were married. Do you really think Winnie was doing something Nelson was not aware of? Especially since she was giving speeches on how to perform a "necklacing"?
They were married. Do you really think Winnie was doing something Nelson was not aware of? Especially since she was giving speeches on how to perform a "necklacing"?
I am appalled by the ignorance and the snottiness in this thread... And this is my first post here... I am already wondering why I even joined this forum...
You joined to improve the standard of discourse here.
I have not lied, Mandela openly admitted these acts. Get your facts right before calling me a liar. The difference between me and most other people here is that I see him in shades of grey as opposed to seeing him as some god like saint.
And he paid his debt to society, and after his release went on to to be a upstanding human being. Should we forget what he did? No, but it shouldn't discount what he did later in his life.
And he paid his debt to society, and after his release went on to to be a upstanding human being. Should we forget what he did? No, but it shouldn't discount what he did later in his life.
I've said for years (and it's not like I'm the only one who's ever said this) that if all of our lives are judged solely by the worst thing we've ever done, we are all in a LOT of trouble.
If they honored Margaret Thatcher, the person who pulled down the Iron Curtain, I wouldn't blink an eye. There was no response to her death from Apple and of course our Commander in Chief sent no serving representation to her funeral. With Mandela, this public outcry is completely inappropriate, commie is a commie.
Had Mandela attacked military/government/police based targets I'd put him into the freedom fighter category.
But his tactics were no different to Bin Ladens.
In fact, it would be interesting to see Bin Laden sanctified for similar reasons one day - after all, his causes against soviets and later the US government (which actually created Bin Laden in the first place) were similar no matter how much people may try to spin a difference.
But in the end, you know why he won't? A very simple factor called "victor's justice".
In fact, it would be interesting to see Bin Laden sanctified for similar reasons one day - after all, his causes against soviets and later the US government (which actually created Bin Laden in the first place) were similar no matter how much people may try to spin a difference.
But in the end, you know why he won't? A very simple factor called "victor's justice".
Who exactly was Bin Laden trying to liberate from crushing, dehumanizing oppression?
Yeah, he should have sided with the West, watching his people and land get raped.
No, he should not have. [quote]And please DO not compare Gandhi’s style with that of Mandela’s[/quote] I never mentioned Ghandi. [quote]Did the Apartheid regime have a choice NOT to butcher Africans, ANC activists and its sympathizers?[/quote] Yes. [quote]Mandela actions were forced by cowardice[/quote] No they weren't. They were a decision he made. He was not forced to use violence [quote]Now WHY the regime was so inhuman?[/quote] Cause they were a bunch of racist douchebags.
Who exactly was Bin Laden trying to liberate from crushing, dehumanizing oppression?
Afghan people first against soviets, then Palestinians against the Israeli-enforced Apartheid. In case of doubt, you may ask the CIA's opinion on Bin Laden and his crew back in the 80s. Aren't double standards beautiful?
Afghan people first against soviets, then Palestinians against the Israeli-enforced Apartheid. In case of doubt, you may ask the CIA's opinion on Bin Laden and his crew back in the 80s. Aren't double standards beautiful?
The fact that you can even compare Bin Laden's role in Afghanistan with Mandela's in his South Africa is simply amazing to me.
The fact that you can even compare Bin Laden's role in Afghanistan with Mandela's in his South Africa is simply amazing to me.
With that, I'm done discussing this.
Yes, it's better to stop right here before it gets any uglier...in any case, I was just highlighting how easy it can be for perceptions and standards to change depending on which side of the fence you prefer.
If we were still in Cold War times, BL would be a "freedom fighter" (just like those barbaric lung-ripping "Syrian" mercenaries praised by the "west") - but then he became a "terrorist" once his target moved from "soviet commy" to "US imperialist".
Or perhaps you forget how Rumsfeld shook hands with chemical weapons user Saddam Hussein in his inhuman war waged against innocent Iran...and so on and so forth.
So let's just agree that Mandela successfully fought for a certain group against the Afrikaners, who ALSO happen to belong to South Africa...otherwise, you may also wish to evict all those racist caucasian "invaders" who have almost wiped all native indigenous groups from the Americas...yes, relativism is bliss.
They were married. Do you really think Winnie was doing something Nelson was not aware of? Especially since she was giving speeches on how to perform a "necklacing"?
I'm sorry, but this simplistic statement shows you don't know the history behind the major event you brought up. He has long contended that he was opposed to her speech, and vigorously disputed a document that surfaced years later, from the interview notes of a biographer, a single sentence which said that he had approved of it.
Regardless of how we look at his life, A) Winnie was a far more incendiary and less wise person than he was, and; He was on year 23 of a 27 year prison sentence when she made the speech, and insists he did not condone it.
The story of Winnie Mandela is not the story of Nelson Mandela, regardless of the fact that they were married, by a long shot, and the "necklace speech" was her defining moment, hardly his.
I'm sorry, but this simplistic statement shows you don't know the history behind the major event you brought up. He has long contended that he was opposed to her speech, and vigorously disputed a document that surfaced years later, from the interview notes of a biographer, a single sentence which said that he had approved of it.
Regardless of how we look at his life, A) Winnie was a far more incendiary and less wise person than he was, and; He was on year 23 of a 27 year prison sentence when she made the speech, and insists he did not condone it.
The story of Winnie Mandela is not the story of Nelson Mandela, regardless of the fact that they were married, by a long shot, and the "necklace speech" was her defining moment, hardly his.
Your approach is so similar to this funny/sad statement from the current politics:
Of course he was aware of it. But he was in opposition to her speech, which she made while he was still in prison. Nothing like an administration claiming to not know what's going on.
I'm a white South African and lived through Mandela's release and his election as first black President. I won't lie, we were scared, but what happened? Did he make mince of us whites? Genocide, bombings, necklacing? No. He surprised us, treated us as human beings, after what 'our' government did to him and his colleagues.
Sure, he's made mistakes, serious ones at that - but he came out of prison a different man. He understood things on a much deeper level than we do and he saw beyond racism, etc. South Africa could've ended in a blood bath and it didn't. It actually went forward.
For what he did, he's been awarded the world around. On his deaths, speeches, flags at half mast, and on and on. Does this not carry weight as to who he was?
So, as a South African, albeit white, I have my right to say:
I'm a white South African and lived through Mandela's release and his election as first black President. I won't lie, we were scared, but what happened? Did he make mince of us whites? Genocide, bombings, necklacing? No. He surprised us, treated us as human beings, after what 'our' government did to him and his colleagues.
Sure, he's made mistakes, serious ones at that - but he came out of prison a different man. He understood things on a much deeper level than we do and he saw beyond racism, etc. South Africa could've ended in a blood bath and it didn't. It actually went forward.
For what he did, he's been awarded the world around. On his deaths, speeches, flags at half mast, and on and on. Does this not carry weight as to who he was?
So, as a South African, albeit white, I have my right to say:
Respect this man and let him rest in peace.?
Our opinions are our own, so take them for what they are.
Now, about his Communist ties... And the sorry economic state of South Africa... Any opinions?
Comments
Winnie Mandela was not Nelson Mandela.
They were married. Do you really think Winnie was doing something Nelson was not aware of? Especially since she was giving speeches on how to perform a "necklacing"?
Not surprising, the far-right Apple fans are absent from the conversation.
I think those who visit here purely for political arguments stay in Political Outsider.
They were married. Do you really think Winnie was doing something Nelson was not aware of? Especially since she was giving speeches on how to perform a "necklacing"?
OJ Simpson was married to Nicole Brown, too.
You joined to improve the standard of discourse here.
And he paid his debt to society, and after his release went on to to be a upstanding human being. Should we forget what he did? No, but it shouldn't discount what he did later in his life.
And he paid his debt to society, and after his release went on to to be a upstanding human being. Should we forget what he did? No, but it shouldn't discount what he did later in his life.
I've said for years (and it's not like I'm the only one who's ever said this) that if all of our lives are judged solely by the worst thing we've ever done, we are all in a LOT of trouble.
I've always been partial to this version.
[VIDEO]
In fact, it would be interesting to see Bin Laden sanctified for similar reasons one day - after all, his causes against soviets and later the US government (which actually created Bin Laden in the first place) were similar no matter how much people may try to spin a difference.
But in the end, you know why he won't? A very simple factor called "victor's justice".
In fact, it would be interesting to see Bin Laden sanctified for similar reasons one day - after all, his causes against soviets and later the US government (which actually created Bin Laden in the first place) were similar no matter how much people may try to spin a difference.
But in the end, you know why he won't? A very simple factor called "victor's justice".
Who exactly was Bin Laden trying to liberate from crushing, dehumanizing oppression?
Yeah, he should have sided with the West, watching his people and land get raped.
No, he should not have.
[quote]And please DO not compare Gandhi’s style with that of Mandela’s[/quote]
I never mentioned Ghandi.
[quote]Did the Apartheid regime have a choice NOT to butcher Africans, ANC activists and its sympathizers?[/quote]
Yes.
[quote]Mandela actions were forced by cowardice[/quote]
No they weren't. They were a decision he made. He was not forced to use violence
[quote]Now WHY the regime was so inhuman?[/quote]
Cause they were a bunch of racist douchebags.
Afghan people first against soviets, then Palestinians against the Israeli-enforced Apartheid. In case of doubt, you may ask the CIA's opinion on Bin Laden and his crew back in the 80s. Aren't double standards beautiful?
Afghan people first against soviets, then Palestinians against the Israeli-enforced Apartheid. In case of doubt, you may ask the CIA's opinion on Bin Laden and his crew back in the 80s. Aren't double standards beautiful?
The fact that you can even compare Bin Laden's role in Afghanistan with Mandela's in his South Africa is simply amazing to me.
With that, I'm done discussing this.
Yes, it's better to stop right here before it gets any uglier...in any case, I was just highlighting how easy it can be for perceptions and standards to change depending on which side of the fence you prefer.
If we were still in Cold War times, BL would be a "freedom fighter" (just like those barbaric lung-ripping "Syrian" mercenaries praised by the "west") - but then he became a "terrorist" once his target moved from "soviet commy" to "US imperialist".
Or perhaps you forget how Rumsfeld shook hands with chemical weapons user Saddam Hussein in his inhuman war waged against innocent Iran...and so on and so forth.
So let's just agree that Mandela successfully fought for a certain group against the Afrikaners, who ALSO happen to belong to South Africa...otherwise, you may also wish to evict all those racist caucasian "invaders" who have almost wiped all native indigenous groups from the Americas...yes, relativism is bliss.
I'm sorry, but this simplistic statement shows you don't know the history behind the major event you brought up. He has long contended that he was opposed to her speech, and vigorously disputed a document that surfaced years later, from the interview notes of a biographer, a single sentence which said that he had approved of it.
Regardless of how we look at his life, A) Winnie was a far more incendiary and less wise person than he was, and;
The story of Winnie Mandela is not the story of Nelson Mandela, regardless of the fact that they were married, by a long shot, and the "necklace speech" was her defining moment, hardly his.
I'm sorry, but this simplistic statement shows you don't know the history behind the major event you brought up. He has long contended that he was opposed to her speech, and vigorously disputed a document that surfaced years later, from the interview notes of a biographer, a single sentence which said that he had approved of it.
Regardless of how we look at his life, A) Winnie was a far more incendiary and less wise person than he was, and;
The story of Winnie Mandela is not the story of Nelson Mandela, regardless of the fact that they were married, by a long shot, and the "necklace speech" was her defining moment, hardly his.
Your approach is so similar to this funny/sad statement from the current politics:
Of course he was aware of it. But he was in opposition to her speech, which she made while he was still in prison. Nothing like an administration claiming to not know what's going on.
I'm a white South African and lived through Mandela's release and his election as first black President. I won't lie, we were scared, but what happened? Did he make mince of us whites? Genocide, bombings, necklacing? No. He surprised us, treated us as human beings, after what 'our' government did to him and his colleagues.
Sure, he's made mistakes, serious ones at that - but he came out of prison a different man. He understood things on a much deeper level than we do and he saw beyond racism, etc. South Africa could've ended in a blood bath and it didn't. It actually went forward.
For what he did, he's been awarded the world around. On his deaths, speeches, flags at half mast, and on and on. Does this not carry weight as to who he was?
So, as a South African, albeit white, I have my right to say:
Respect this man and let him rest in peace. ?
Our opinions are our own, so take them for what they are.
Now, about his Communist ties... And the sorry economic state of South Africa... Any opinions?
That reminds me of the Clinton hearing:
"No I did not have sex with that woman". Mumbling "We're talking about Hilary, right?"